On Aug 23, 4:39*pm, -hh wrote:
KingOfTheApes wrote:

Many people that are into motorboating are poorly educated and
couldn't care less about the consequences of their actions.

Kind of an interesting self-contradiction you're making, by first
talking about how these boats are huge and expensive, yet now they're
owned by uneducated high school dropouts, which is a demographic with
very low incomes. *With just a McDonald's job, how can they afford the
gas to be constantly running their boats?

First of all, there are "lions" out there and "wannabes." Meaning
there are many big yachts and cigarette boats owned by the filthy
rich, and then crappy motorboats of all kinds owned by the ones that
want to imitate the others. The former you see either cruising slowly
on their yachts or racing by on their fast boats. The latter are the
ones that bring their extended family to the islands out there and
leave all the garbage behind.

In other words, motorboating has become democratic and even the dog
participates in the affair. Actually, there are ads on TV that promote
motorboating as a fun thing for the whole family --and the dog.

It's a matter of STATUS. Just like cars. "Money to burn"=Big Yacht &
SUV. "Survivor"=old car and boat.


But motorboat pollution contributes to "the soup" out there too. You
can even smell the gas, and I doubt it that it would be safe to swim
in the intracostal anymore.

You sure that you're not smelling naturally occurring organics?
Afterall, the ICW runs through a lot of muddy marshes and estuaries.

I can tell the smell of gas. And you can see it floating all over the
place.

And when a motorboats goes by, you can get some serious second hand
smoke.


Their main threat though is to life and property...

"Here are some startling statistics regarding boating accidents from
the United States Coast Guard:

In 2005, states and jurisdictions reported a total of 12,942,414
registered recreational boats compared with 12,781,476 in 2004.
The 4,969 boating accidents ...

0.04% incidence. *Yes, very 'startling'. *You would have to boat for
over 25 years just to get up to a 1% risk.

I bet many of those registered boats don't even make it to the water
(they look good parked on the driveway). And the kayaks stay away from
those motorboat highways, so the statistics may be misleading.

But your common sense tells you they are a real threat. More than
terrorists, say.

ComandanteBanana wrote:
-hh wrote:
KingOfTheApes wrote:

Many people that are into motorboating
are poorly educated and...

Kind of an interesting self-contradiction
you're making, by first talking about how
these boats are huge and expensive, yet now
they're owned by uneducated high school
dropouts, which is a demographic with
very low incomes...

First of all, there are "lions" out there
and "wannabes." Meaning there are many big
yachts and cigarette boats owned by the filthy
rich, and then crappy motorboats of all kinds
...
It's a matter of STATUS. Just like cars.
"Money to burn"=Big Yacht & SUV.
"Survivor"=old car and boat.

Agreed, but this is hardly new news. Mahogany hulled Chris-Craft
powerboats have been around since the 1920s, as well as efforts over
the years to broaden the market base to the middle class; one can
suggest that Boston Whaler contributed to this trend too, staring in
the mid-1950s.


But motorboat pollution contributes to
"the soup" out there too...

You sure that you're not smelling naturally
occurring organics? Afterall, the ICW runs
through a lot of muddy marshes and estuaries.

I can tell the smell of gas. And you can see
it floating all over the place.

Maybe in a marina. Gas is a light aeromatic and disappears quite
rapidly. If its not natural marsh stuff, its more likely to be
diesel, which tends to be more of what larger working boats tend to
use, not your generic commercial pleasure boat 30ft.

And when a motorboats goes by, you can get
some serious second hand smoke.

While there's always going to be the occasional gross polluter, they
generally are quite uncommon. Turbo-diesels will smoke when under
heavy load, such as a 40 footer trying to get home on one engine.


0.04% incidence. *Yes, very 'startling'. *
You would have to boat for over 25 years just
to get up to a 1% risk.

I bet many of those registered boats don't
even make it to the water (they look good parked
on the driveway).

Catch-22 alert: if these are your high risk "unskilled" boaters, if
they're parked at home, they can't be a risk at sea.

And the kayaks stay away from those motorboat
highways, so the statistics may be misleading.

Kayaks aren't a class of boat requiring registration, so the actual
total numbers are higher, which means that the actual statistical risk
is even lower.


But your common sense tells you they are a real
threat. More than terrorists, say.

Common sense says that all parties should take responsibility for
their decisions, which includes wandering out into harm's way when you
suspect that there are operators of less than stellar skill levels
present. Yes, it is "unfair", but life is unfair: you either deal
with it and roll with the punches, or die from being too inflexible.


-hh

On Aug 25, 4:52*pm, -hh wrote:

But your common sense tells you they are a real
threat. More than terrorists, say.

Common sense says that all parties should take responsibility for
their decisions, which includes wandering out into harm's way when you
suspect that there are operators of less than stellar skill levels
present. *Yes, it is "unfair", but life is unfair: you either deal
with it and roll with the punches, or die from being too inflexible.

-hh- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Life was very unfair when the Vikings went around pillaging and
killing left and right. But they are today very civilized people, even
showing respect for nature as well as for the little guy on the bike
or kayak.

So I hope other "less-than-civilized" people can evolve too.

On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 13:52:22 -0700 (PDT), -hh
wrote:

ComandanteBanana wrote:
-hh wrote:
KingOfTheApes wrote:

Many people that are into motorboating
are poorly educated and...

Kind of an interesting self-contradiction
you're making, by first talking about how
these boats are huge and expensive, yet now
they're owned by uneducated high school
dropouts, which is a demographic with
very low incomes...

First of all, there are "lions" out there
and "wannabes." Meaning there are many big
yachts and cigarette boats owned by the filthy
rich, and then crappy motorboats of all kinds
...
It's a matter of STATUS. Just like cars.
"Money to burn"=3DBig Yacht & SUV.
"Survivor"=3Dold car and boat.

Agreed, but this is hardly new news. Mahogany hulled Chris-Craft
powerboats have been around since the 1920s, as well as efforts over
the years to broaden the market base to the middle class; one can
suggest that Boston Whaler contributed to this trend too, staring in
the mid-1950s.


But motorboat pollution contributes to
"the soup" out there too...

You sure that you're not smelling naturally
occurring organics? Afterall, the ICW runs
through a lot of muddy marshes and estuaries.

I can tell the smell of gas. And you can see
it floating all over the place.

Maybe in a marina. Gas is a light aeromatic and disappears quite
rapidly. If its not natural marsh stuff, its more likely to be
diesel, which tends to be more of what larger working boats tend to
use, not your generic commercial pleasure boat 30ft.

And when a motorboats goes by, you can get
some serious second hand smoke.

While there's always going to be the occasional gross polluter, they
generally are quite uncommon. Turbo-diesels will smoke when under
heavy load, such as a 40 footer trying to get home on one engine.


0.04% incidence. =A0Yes, very 'startling'. =A0
You would have to boat for over 25 years just
to get up to a 1% risk.

I bet many of those registered boats don't
even make it to the water (they look good parked
on the driveway).

Catch-22 alert: if these are your high risk "unskilled" boaters, if
they're parked at home, they can't be a risk at sea.

And the kayaks stay away from those motorboat
highways, so the statistics may be misleading.

Kayaks aren't a class of boat requiring registration, so the actual
total numbers are higher, which means that the actual statistical risk
is even lower.


But your common sense tells you they are a real
threat. More than terrorists, say.

Common sense says that all parties should take responsibility for
their decisions, which includes wandering out into harm's way when you
suspect that there are operators of less than stellar skill levels
present. Yes, it is "unfair", but life is unfair: you either deal
with it and roll with the punches, or die from being too inflexible.


-hh

Totally untrue, if I spill gas while refueling. THe gas doc will
surround the area with absorption material, and clean it up, I have to
file an EPA report on how it happened, and how I will prevent it in
the future

Why would anyone care unless they were planning to sue or something?
I've been kayaking all over the east coast, from Maine to the
Everglades, and I find personal water craft far more irritating,
hazardous, and likely to be in unskilled hands than any kind of
smudgepot (power boat).

Galen Hekhuis wrote

Why would anyone care unless they were planning to sue or something?
I've been kayaking all over the east coast, from Maine to the
Everglades, and I find personal water craft far more irritating,
hazardous, and likely to be in unskilled hands than any kind of
smudgepot (power boat).

You hit that one right on the nose except, of course, for the smudgepot
part.

Lee

Totally untrue, if I spill gas while refueling. THe gas doc will
surround the area with absorption material, and clean it up, I have to
file an EPA report on how it happened, and how I will prevent it in
the future

The gas doc? What's a gas doc?

Personally, I sprinkle some Dawn dishwashing detergent around. Presto, no
more gas slick.

Lee

"Lee Bell" wrote:
Totally untrue, if I spill gas while refueling. THe gas doc will
surround the area with absorption material, and clean it up, I have to
file an EPA report on how it happened, and how I will prevent it in
the future

The gas doc? *What's a gas doc?

Dock. It doesn't matter too much anyway, because now the discussion
is shifting.

It started as claims of pollution from normal running conditions that
was observed along protected waters (eg, ICW), but this is talking
about a semi-"point" source of pollution, namely a spill occurring at
refueling stations.


Personally, I sprinkle some Dawn dishwashing detergent around.
*Presto, no more gas slick.

Of course, another option when refueling, is to not spill so much fuel
(such that the Sheen Rule is invoked, etc).

And from a similar observation of human nature, a chronic spiller may
very well get inconvenienced by the owner of the refueling station to
report every spill no matter how small (ie, well below reporting
threshold). We can all figure out the real reasons why.


-hh

Totally untrue, if I spill gas while refueling. THe gas doc will
surround the area with absorption material, and clean it up, I have to
file an EPA report on how it happened, and how I will prevent it in
the future

The gas doc? What's a gas doc?

Dock. It doesn't matter too much anyway, because now the discussion
is shifting.

I thought of that, but in all my years of boating, I've never seen a dock
surround anything. I considered that it might be a local company in the
business of spill mitigation.

Personally, I sprinkle some Dawn dishwashing detergent around.
Presto, no more gas slick.

Of course, another option when refueling, is to not spill so much fuel
(such that the Sheen Rule is invoked, etc).

Not as much of an option as you'd think. You generally don't know your tank
is full until gas comes out of the overflow which, of course, is over the
water. Some gas is spilled more often than not. Gas evaporates pretty
quickly and such small amounts don't last long enough to be a significant
problem.

Lee

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 20:37:15 -0400, "Lee Bell"
wrote:

Totally untrue, if I spill gas while refueling. THe gas doc will
surround the area with absorption material, and clean it up, I have to
file an EPA report on how it happened, and how I will prevent it in
the future

The gas doc? What's a gas doc?

Personally, I sprinkle some Dawn dishwashing detergent around. Presto, no
more gas slick.

Lee


gas Dock attendant, when you are paying 1200 dollars to fill up,
someone hands you the hose