Newbie to paddling
 

I've got a little idea brewing where I take a canoe/kayak up the Thames and
camp out etc etc.

That's as far as I've got. I investigated a school recently and may start
training on their equipment soon. However, am unsure whether to go for canoe
or kayak. I won't be carrying tons of stuff, but will still have a weeks
worth or so. Maybe as much as a tent, sleeping bag and clothes etc ..

Also, I see some fibre glass canoes going pretty cheaply, but haven't got
anywhere to store one at the moment. So, should I consider renting one, or
finding a neighbour with a garden I can hide it in when not in use?

What sort of kayak/canoe should I look at for this type of beginners tour?
I've used one previously that was in a friends garden, but it got really
uncomfortable on my back from leaning back on the entrance edge. Is this
because it may have been too small for me? I'm 6ft, 16st.

What sort of distance would you expect to cover per day?

Thanks for any advice

Nick

elyob wrote:
I've got a little idea brewing where I take a canoe/kayak up the Thames and
camp out etc etc.

For a start I would try canoeing down the Thames it's a lot easier.

That's as far as I've got. I investigated a school recently and may start
training on their equipment soon. However, am unsure whether to go for canoe
or kayak. I won't be carrying tons of stuff, but will still have a weeks
worth or so. Maybe as much as a tent, sleeping bag and clothes etc ..

I would go for a kayak, it's also easier.

Also, I see some fibre glass canoes going pretty cheaply, but haven't got
anywhere to store one at the moment. So, should I consider renting one, or
finding a neighbour with a garden I can hide it in when not in use?

Hide it ina neighbour's garden.

What sort of kayak/canoe should I look at for this type of beginners tour?
I've used one previously that was in a friends garden, but it got really
uncomfortable on my back from leaning back on the entrance edge. Is this
because it may have been too small for me? I'm 6ft, 16st.

No, it's probably because you have the wrong paddling technique and lack
of stamina so you are lying back in your seat when paddling. Sit up when
paddling. It will probably be difficult to start with, but by the time
you have paddled down the Thames, you will not think twice about it.

Buy a long, thin canoe that initially feels a bit unstable.

What sort of distance would you expect to cover per day?

How many pubs do you intend to call at :-). Depends on how much sight
seeing you want to do. 20 miles a day might be a reasonable target -
This probably equates to about 5 or 6 hours a day paddling. In order to
pass through the locks quickly I recommend going to the front of the
queue of boats and fitting into the odd space left by the cruisers etc..
Hold on to a chain. Oh yes, nearly forgot, you need a license.

Thanks for any advice

Have fun.

Bill

elyob wrote:

I've got a little idea brewing where I take a canoe/kayak up the Thames and
camp out etc etc.

That's as far as I've got. I investigated a school recently and may start
training on their equipment soon. However, am unsure whether to go for canoe
or kayak. I won't be carrying tons of stuff, but will still have a weeks
worth or so. Maybe as much as a tent, sleeping bag and clothes etc ..

Also, I see some fibre glass canoes going pretty cheaply, but haven't got
anywhere to store one at the moment. So, should I consider renting one, or
finding a neighbour with a garden I can hide it in when not in use?

What sort of kayak/canoe should I look at for this type of beginners tour?
I've used one previously that was in a friends garden, but it got really
uncomfortable on my back from leaning back on the entrance edge. Is this
because it may have been too small for me? I'm 6ft, 16st.

What sort of distance would you expect to cover per day?

Thanks for any advice

Read "Three Men in a Boat" by Jerome K. Jerome and copy the journey.
An open canoe would be good for camping, especially if you have a
friend. Even without, you should cover twenty miles in a day as
a beginner.

--
Eiron.

"elyob" wrote in message
. ..
I've got a little idea brewing where I take a canoe/kayak up the
Thames and
camp out etc etc.

That's as far as I've got. I investigated a school recently and may
start
training on their equipment soon. However, am unsure whether to go for
canoe
or kayak. I won't be carrying tons of stuff, but will still have a
weeks
worth or so. Maybe as much as a tent, sleeping bag and clothes etc ..

Also, I see some fibre glass canoes going pretty cheaply, but haven't
got
anywhere to store one at the moment. So, should I consider renting
one, or
finding a neighbour with a garden I can hide it in when not in use?

What sort of kayak/canoe should I look at for this type of beginners
tour?
I've used one previously that was in a friends garden, but it got
really
uncomfortable on my back from leaning back on the entrance edge. Is
this
because it may have been too small for me? I'm 6ft, 16st.

What sort of distance would you expect to cover per day?

Thanks for any advice

Nick

Apologies for sending email instead of posting. Finger trouble again
don't you know?

1st:
Down stream is always easier to paddle than up stream. Go with the flow.
Long skinny boats are quicker and easier to paddle, but only if you can
stay upright in them. If you tend to fall out regularly they are slower
than wide stable boats.
Fibre glass is lighter to carry than plastic (you need to carry your
boat around the locks), and usually smoother so slips through the water
easier. It is also easier to damage through impacts so is not so good
for rough water. Most canoe clubs will store your canoe for you. Keep
your kit to a minimum. It slows you down and you have to cart it around
the locks. Heavy kit will tire you out. If you can organise a support
crew to carry your overnight gear, you can meet them at preplanned
locations and you can then simply carry enough supplies to last you for
your days paddling. Drinks are the most important cargo. hiccup

2nd:
The Devises to Westminster Canoe Race takes place over Easter if you
want to see how other people do it.

3rd:
Don't forget about the weirs. Never forget about the weirs!
Dr Bennett will be along in a moment to tell you all about the weirs.
If he can be found that is, as he isn't responding much at the moment.
If he doesn't show up, try googling for Thames weirs on this ng, or the
rowing newsgroup.
Some of us enjoy a good row.
You might find the archives interesting if you ignore the mud slinging.
Dr. Bennett and mudslinging are never very far apart.
Shame really as he is such a helpful and knowledgeable old faXXXX chap.
;-)

David Kemper
Not a fan of slow coaches.

"David Kemper" wrote in message
...

Apologies for sending email instead of posting. Finger trouble again
don't you know?


No worries, it's a hardly checked gmail account. I look in it once a month
or so.

1st:
Down stream is always easier to paddle than up stream. Go with the flow.
Long skinny boats are quicker and easier to paddle, but only if you can
stay upright in them. If you tend to fall out regularly they are slower
than wide stable boats.
Fibre glass is lighter to carry than plastic (you need to carry your
boat around the locks), and usually smoother so slips through the water
easier. It is also easier to damage through impacts so is not so good
for rough water. Most canoe clubs will store your canoe for you. Keep
your kit to a minimum. It slows you down and you have to cart it around
the locks. Heavy kit will tire you out. If you can organise a support
crew to carry your overnight gear, you can meet them at preplanned
locations and you can then simply carry enough supplies to last you for
your days paddling. Drinks are the most important cargo. hiccup


All seems reasonable advice. The reason I'll be going up the Thames, is that
I'll be coming back down again. However if I can blag a car to get me to the
start then I'll do something more like the Devizes - Westminster but over a
few days. (Once I've got my skills up. I'm pretty fit as a gym user and
heavy cyclist, but suspect my shoulders will ache the first few months!)

2nd:
The Devises to Westminster Canoe Race takes place over Easter if you
want to see how other people do it.


I see the record was something like 15 hours, and am wondering when they are
likely to come through the Kingston area. I'm just looking at the
dwrace.org.uk site and see there is also a 4 day race for senior singles.
That looks like something I could aim to do next year! ;)
They don't mention the sorts of numbers involved, but I guess this is a big
event on the calendar. Certainly looks like fun! I'm surprised it's not
later in the year to get more reliable weather.

3rd:
Don't forget about the weirs. Never forget about the weirs!
Dr Bennett will be along in a moment to tell you all about the weirs.
If he can be found that is, as he isn't responding much at the moment.
If he doesn't show up, try googling for Thames weirs on this ng, or the
rowing newsgroup.
Some of us enjoy a good row.
You might find the archives interesting if you ignore the mud slinging.
Dr. Bennett and mudslinging are never very far apart.
Shame really as he is such a helpful and knowledgeable old faXXXX chap.
;-)


I'll certainly read up about the weirs! As mentioned, I'm in the Kingston
area, and will get training on starting. I'm sure they'll mention these
things, but I'll ask too!

Thanks to all so far, am reading all the replies avidly.

"Eiron" wrote in message
...
elyob wrote:

I've got a little idea brewing where I take a canoe/kayak up the Thames
and camp out etc etc.

That's as far as I've got. I investigated a school recently and may start
training on their equipment soon. However, am unsure whether to go for
canoe or kayak. I won't be carrying tons of stuff, but will still have a
weeks worth or so. Maybe as much as a tent, sleeping bag and clothes etc
..

Also, I see some fibre glass canoes going pretty cheaply, but haven't got
anywhere to store one at the moment. So, should I consider renting one,
or finding a neighbour with a garden I can hide it in when not in use?

What sort of kayak/canoe should I look at for this type of beginners
tour? I've used one previously that was in a friends garden, but it got
really uncomfortable on my back from leaning back on the entrance edge.
Is this because it may have been too small for me? I'm 6ft, 16st.

What sort of distance would you expect to cover per day?

Thanks for any advice

Read "Three Men in a Boat" by Jerome K. Jerome and copy the journey.
An open canoe would be good for camping, especially if you have a
friend. Even without, you should cover twenty miles in a day as
a beginner.

Thanks, got a copy off the internet. Will read soon!

"Bill Oldroyd" wrote in message
...
elyob wrote:
I've got a little idea brewing where I take a canoe/kayak up the Thames
and camp out etc etc.

For a start I would try canoeing down the Thames it's a lot easier.


I'm going to join a local club and then meet people who can give advice and
find people who don't mind me tagging along. I don't have a car at the
moment, so will be looking at same start/finish points for practice.
Hopefully will find others who can help out for bigger trips.

That's as far as I've got. I investigated a school recently and may start
training on their equipment soon. However, am unsure whether to go for
canoe or kayak. I won't be carrying tons of stuff, but will still have a
weeks worth or so. Maybe as much as a tent, sleeping bag and clothes etc
..

I would go for a kayak, it's also easier.

Okay! Sounds good! It also has a place to stash the beer?


Also, I see some fibre glass canoes going pretty cheaply, but haven't got
anywhere to store one at the moment. So, should I consider renting one,
or finding a neighbour with a garden I can hide it in when not in use?

Hide it ina neighbour's garden.

I think that's probably the best advice. How much do Kayaks cost, and where
can I read more about new and secondhand ones?


What sort of kayak/canoe should I look at for this type of beginners
tour? I've used one previously that was in a friends garden, but it got
really uncomfortable on my back from leaning back on the entrance edge.
Is this because it may have been too small for me? I'm 6ft, 16st.

No, it's probably because you have the wrong paddling technique and lack
of stamina so you are lying back in your seat when paddling. Sit up when
paddling. It will probably be difficult to start with, but by the time you
have paddled down the Thames, you will not think twice about it.

Buy a long, thin canoe that initially feels a bit unstable.

What sort of distance would you expect to cover per day?

How many pubs do you intend to call at :-). Depends on how much sight
seeing you want to do. 20 miles a day might be a reasonable target - This
probably equates to about 5 or 6 hours a day paddling. In order to pass
through the locks quickly I recommend going to the front of the queue of
boats and fitting into the odd space left by the cruisers etc.. Hold on to
a chain. Oh yes, nearly forgot, you need a license.


I did pop through a locks at Shepperton when I borrowed one for an hour or
two last year. I held on to the chains as you say.

Thanks for any advice

Have fun.

Bill

I will. I think I'll be out this weekend ;)

"elyob" wrote in message
...

"Bill Oldroyd" wrote in message
...
How many pubs do you intend to call at :-). Depends on how much
sight
seeing you want to do. 20 miles a day might be a reasonable target -
This
probably equates to about 5 or 6 hours a day paddling. In order to
pass
through the locks quickly I recommend going to the front of the
queue of
boats and fitting into the odd space left by the cruisers etc.. Hold
on to
a chain. Oh yes, nearly forgot, you need a license.


I did pop through a locks at Shepperton when I borrowed one for an
hour or
two last year. I held on to the chains as you say.

You used the locks like any other boat would? I didn't know this was
permitted.
I've only ever been involved with racing on the Thames and the locks are
always portaged. The locks are provided with paths which are signposted
for portaging craft. On British Waterways your canal licence prohibits
the use of locks although I believe you can purchase a more expensive
version which does allow use of locks. I don't remember seeing any
paddler actually using locks on the canal. IMHO it is far easier and
vastly quicker to get out and have a little walk around the lock.

David Kemper
Not a fan of hanging around in chains.

"David Kemper" wrote in message
...

"elyob" wrote in message
...

"Bill Oldroyd" wrote in message
...
How many pubs do you intend to call at :-). Depends on how much
sight
seeing you want to do. 20 miles a day might be a reasonable target -
This
probably equates to about 5 or 6 hours a day paddling. In order to
pass
through the locks quickly I recommend going to the front of the
queue of
boats and fitting into the odd space left by the cruisers etc.. Hold
on to
a chain. Oh yes, nearly forgot, you need a license.


I did pop through a locks at Shepperton when I borrowed one for an
hour or
two last year. I held on to the chains as you say.

You used the locks like any other boat would? I didn't know this was
permitted.
I've only ever been involved with racing on the Thames and the locks are
always portaged. The locks are provided with paths which are signposted
for portaging craft. On British Waterways your canal licence prohibits
the use of locks although I believe you can purchase a more expensive
version which does allow use of locks. I don't remember seeing any
paddler actually using locks on the canal. IMHO it is far easier and
vastly quicker to get out and have a little walk around the lock.


I dunno, I just borrowed a canoe out of a friends back garden and took a
spin. Thought I'd give it a go, however other paddlers got out and carried.
Yes, vastly quicker to do this, but I thought I wanted to do it just once.
;)

"elyob" wrote in message
...

The Devises to Westminster Canoe Race takes place over Easter if you
want to see how other people do it.


I see the record was something like 15 hours, and am wondering when they
are
likely to come through the Kingston area.

The Juniors race uses Thames Young Mariners (TYM) at Ham Fields as an
overnight stop. In fact, TYM may be your best local option for advice:
http://freespace.virgin.net/tym.tym/

--
MatSav

"elyob" wrote in message
. ..
I've got a little idea brewing where I take a canoe/kayak up the Thames
and
camp out etc etc.

That's as far as I've got. I investigated a school recently and may start
training on their equipment soon. However, am unsure whether to go for
canoe
or kayak. I won't be carrying tons of stuff, but will still have a weeks
worth or so. Maybe as much as a tent, sleeping bag and clothes etc ..

So, how smelly do you want to get? I think you would be hard pushed to get a
week's worth of kit in a modern kayak. Possibly a little more in a longer,
older boat such as a GRP one, or perhas a Corsica or similar. Otherwise, go
for a Canadian to carry your gear. But it will be heavy, so get wheels for
portaging too. Better still go in a group, it's safer too.


Also, I see some fibre glass canoes going pretty cheaply, but haven't got
anywhere to store one at the moment. So, should I consider renting one, or
finding a neighbour with a garden I can hide it in when not in use?

GRP rots. Apart from the seepage through the gel coat where it will be
cracked, it deteriorates with time and becomes osmotic. So you can test a
boat and it appears watertight, but if you leave it long enough in the water
it fills up osmotically. Since most second hand GRP boats will be getting a
bit long in the tooth - unless you go for a specialist boat, then look for a
plastic boat. In fact, if you opt for a kayak, a sea-kayak or a touring boat
with deck hatches would be adeal.

What sort of kayak/canoe should I look at for this type of beginners tour?
I've used one previously that was in a friends garden, but it got really
uncomfortable on my back from leaning back on the entrance edge. Is this
because it may have been too small for me? I'm 6ft, 16st.

Sitting in a kayak curves your spine the wrong way and it does get
uncomfortable, so some people lean back - which is bad for paddling. You nee
d to warm up, stretch your muscles and lean forwards to get the best kayak
paddling position. It still gets uncomfortable.

The best you can do is set the footrests, knee braces, and seat and seat
back in the best position for you - and the trim of the boat. But you'll
probably still get a sore back.

What sort of distance would you expect to cover per day?


What speed can you continuously paddle in flat water with no current?
Believe it or not most people manage 4-5km at a steady pace. If you try on a
canal, you can pass a canal boat at the leagl 4kph, but he has a motor and
he'll soon pass you as you tire. So, on a canal, for instance, ignoring
locks, you might manage say six hours paddling per day, so 24km per day.
However, if the current of the river is flowing downstream at 2kph, and you
are paddling against it, that at least halves your speed and distance
covered. (It doesn't necessarily increase it by as much on your return
journey either as your boat will usually descend at a slower rate than the
flow of the river.)

How fit are you? Could you paddle 24km per day for four days?

If you must, I'd find some buddies at your local club, get some experience
in and persuade some kind soul to drop you off upstream and you and a couple
of others paddle downstream.

Ewan Scott

Ewan Scott wrote:

So, how smelly do you want to get? I think you would be hard pushed to get a
week's worth of kit in a modern kayak. Possibly a little more in a longer,
older boat such as a GRP one, or perhas a Corsica or similar.

A dedicated touring boat has /plenty/ of room. I've had enough gear in
a kayak for a 3 day *ski touring* trip off a Norwegian hydro loch, so I
really don't see that a few extra days without the plastic boots, skis,
poles and extra warm clothing etc. will be /that/ problematical! The
sort of things folk like to cartwheel in stoppers won't do you any good,
granted.

for a Canadian to carry your gear. But it will be heavy, so get wheels for
portaging too.

Certainly easier to load in terms of both absolute volume and ease if
input and output, and though it's slower that's only really an issue if
you're in a hurry. I'd personally take a Canadian for this sort of job,
especially as they offer you more potential comfort from a variety of
seating/kneeling positions, but some people prefer kayaks.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
Ewan Scott wrote:

So, how smelly do you want to get? I think you would be hard pushed to
get a
week's worth of kit in a modern kayak. Possibly a little more in a
longer,
older boat such as a GRP one, or perhas a Corsica or similar.

A dedicated touring boat has /plenty/ of room. I've had enough gear in a
kayak for a 3 day *ski touring* trip off a Norwegian hydro loch, so I
really don't see that a few extra days without the plastic boots, skis,
poles and extra warm clothing etc. will be /that/ problematical! The sort
of things folk like to cartwheel in stoppers won't do you any good,
granted.

for a Canadian to carry your gear. But it will be heavy, so get wheels
for
portaging too.

Certainly easier to load in terms of both absolute volume and ease if
input and output, and though it's slower that's only really an issue if
you're in a hurry. I'd personally take a Canadian for this sort of job,
especially as they offer you more potential comfort from a variety of
seating/kneeling positions, but some people prefer kayaks.


On a weeks tour of Cornwall on bicycle, I managed with tent, sleeping bag,
roll mat and a weeks worth of clothing. Granted, I took no cooking
facilities and just grabbed sandwiches and pub food on the way round. I'm
looking at not taking a tent and replacing it with an outdoor hammock, which
will take up 1/4 of the space and weight.

I guess that I will 'go with the flow' on any extended journey, as I'd like
to enjoy it and not have to overwork too much! So, I will just go up and
down on one day trips for near my home. Hopefully I will find someone else
willing to go away on a trip, especially as I'd have no way of getting there
with equipment. How do most people do downstream trips, you must always have
a dedicated driver? I'm presuming taking a kayak on the bus/train/tube is a
no-no!

Are most kayaks now made from plastic rather than GRP? Does anyone have
manufacturer links, shops etc?

Thanks

elyob wrote:

Are most kayaks now made from plastic rather than GRP? Does anyone have
manufacturer links, shops etc?

More kayaks are plastic now, but touring, especially on the sea, is a
niche where glass is still an option, and in fact a preferable one in
many cases. It slides through the water better and is easier to repair
and maintain (plastic is pretty bombproof, but it just gets rough and
slow with time, where glass can be repaired back to a smooth finish
quite easily). There's no particular reason not to use a sea kayak in a
large river, especially a smaller one.

http://www.knoydart.co.uk/ are sea kayaking and touring specialists.
They have a line of folding boats which actually are train portable,
though we're not talking Brompton levels of fold convenience here, more
like 90 minutes assembly.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
elyob wrote:

Are most kayaks now made from plastic rather than GRP? Does anyone have
manufacturer links, shops etc?

More kayaks are plastic now, but touring, especially on the sea, is a
niche where glass is still an option, and in fact a preferable one in many
cases. It slides through the water better and is easier to repair and
maintain (plastic is pretty bombproof, but it just gets rough and slow
with time, where glass can be repaired back to a smooth finish quite
easily). There's no particular reason not to use a sea kayak in a large
river, especially a smaller one.

http://www.knoydart.co.uk/ are sea kayaking and touring specialists. They
have a line of folding boats which actually are train portable, though
we're not talking Brompton levels of fold convenience here, more like 90
minutes assembly.

It'll be a while before I can afford a Knoydart! ... The guy at the training
place down the road said me in a sea kayak is like a formula one car for a
trainee driver. Personally, I wish I'd done my test in a formula one car.

I think I'll see how I get on over the next few months, and the club/member
might lend me an old one if I find someone to go with. You never know!

Still, I think I'll see how I get on before I book the holidays up!

elyob wrote:
....
I did pop through a locks at Shepperton when I borrowed one for an
hour or two last year. I held on to the chains as you say.

One reason for going through the locks is that it gives you a chance to
rest and chat with the people on the boats and the lock keeper. On the
other hand portaging around a lock gives you a chance to stretch your legs.

One thing I forgot to mention is that there are quite a few charming
backwaters you can use instead of the mainstream. A number of the weirs
can be portaged next to the weir or across into the weir stream, and
this again takes you away from the mainstream. However for both these
you need local knowledge and care so if you don't have either it's
not an option. Apparently the right of way on the Thames covers any
backwater (except the Jubilee river ?).

When I was doing this sort of stuff there were also a few weirs that
could be shot. I don't know if this is the case anymore.

Bill

"MatSav" wrote in message
...
"elyob" wrote in message
...

The Devises to Westminster Canoe Race takes place over Easter if
you
want to see how other people do it.


I see the record was something like 15 hours, and am wondering when
they
are
likely to come through the Kingston area.

The Juniors race uses Thames Young Mariners (TYM) at Ham Fields as an
overnight stop. In fact, TYM may be your best local option for advice:
http://freespace.virgin.net/tym.tym/

I'd agree with that advice. TYM also run courses on their sheltered lake
(Ham Dock).
You could also contact Richmond Canoe Club or Royal Canoe Club
(Teddington).

David Kemper
Not a fan or agreeing too much.

Are most kayaks now made from plastic rather than GRP? Does anyone have
manufacturer links, shops etc?

Google is a wonderful thing. Then again, try
http://www.s106156335.websitehome.co..._retailers.htm

Most playboats / creekers / river runners / general purpose boats are
plastic. Proper sea-kayaks are GRP. Opens can be some form of plastic -
usually.

I commend http://www.ukseakayakguidebook.co.uk/ and
http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/forum/ to you as other sources of info.

Enjoy - Mike

"Mike Buckley" wrote in message
...

Are most kayaks now made from plastic rather than GRP? Does anyone have
manufacturer links, shops etc?

Google is a wonderful thing. Then again, try
http://www.s106156335.websitehome.co..._retailers.htm

Most playboats / creekers / river runners / general purpose boats are
plastic. Proper sea-kayaks are GRP. Opens can be some form of plastic -
usually.

I commend http://www.ukseakayakguidebook.co.uk/ and
http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/forum/ to you as other sources of info.


Google is your friend for sure! I've met Dr Bennett's point of view before
I've really met him! ;)

All the advice given is great, and I hope others getting into the sport will
find this thread interesting. I surely have.

New to a sport means finding your feet, but I'm glad so much response has
been generated by my enquiry. Looks like this has been the busiest thread
for a while in uk.r.b.p .. :)

"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
...

"elyob" wrote in message
. ..


Oh dear :-(
Lots to disagree with here!

I won't be carrying tons of stuff, but will still have a weeks
worth or so. Maybe as much as a tent, sleeping bag and clothes etc
...

So, how smelly do you want to get? I think you would be hard pushed to
get a
week's worth of kit in a modern kayak. Possibly a little more in a
longer,
older boat such as a GRP one, or perhas a Corsica or similar.
Otherwise, go
for a Canadian to carry your gear. But it will be heavy, so get wheels
for
portaging too. Better still go in a group, it's safer too.

For camping trips on a river like the Thames either a touring kayak or a
marathon racing kayak of the more stable variety would be ideally
suited. A sea kayak would be almost as good but heavier to portage. Slow
flowing rivers with long stretches of relatively flat water are not the
place to use short low volume play boats. A Canadian canoe is much
slower especially paddled solo. Canadians are ideal for a pair of
paddlers who want to cart a lot of cargo but aren't in any hurry. I find
my knees get sore paddling Canadian canoes.

GRP rots. Apart from the seepage through the gel coat where it will be
cracked, it deteriorates with time and becomes osmotic. So you can
test a
boat and it appears watertight, but if you leave it long enough in the
water
it fills up osmotically.

Your experience with glass fibre boats must be radically different from
mine then. You do find ancient wrecked GF boats but ancient plastic
boats are often also rather beaten up. I have owned many GF boats and
about 6 plastic boats, and for long distances, GF wins every time.
Marathon paddlers (long distance specialist paddlers) universally use
glass fibre boats because they do the job better.

Since most second hand GRP boats will be getting a
bit long in the tooth - unless you go for a specialist boat, then look
for a
plastic boat. In fact, if you opt for a kayak, a sea-kayak or a
touring boat
with deck hatches would be adeal.

Elyob is planning a specialised type of paddling so a specialist boat
fits the requirement. Paddling a short plastic boat long distances could
put him off paddling all together.


What sort of kayak/canoe should I look at for this type of beginners
tour?
I've used one previously that was in a friends garden, but it got
really
uncomfortable on my back from leaning back on the entrance edge. Is
this
because it may have been too small for me? I'm 6ft, 16st.

Sitting in a kayak curves your spine the wrong way and it does get
uncomfortable, so some people lean back - which is bad for paddling.
You nee
d to warm up, stretch your muscles and lean forwards to get the best
kayak
paddling position. It still gets uncomfortable.

It can be uncomfortable when you start to learn to paddle. Marathon
paddlers routinely paddle long distances without experiencing
discomfort.


The best you can do is set the footrests, knee braces, and seat and
seat
back in the best position for you - and the trim of the boat. But
you'll
probably still get a sore back.

Knee braces? Seat back? No such things in a marathon boat! Your knees
are raised in the large cockpit area and are not covered by the deck of
the kayak. You brace your feet on the bottom of the boat and against the
footrest. You also operate the rudder with your feet (tiller bar between
your feet & protruding through a slot in the footrest). You sit on a
seat which allows you to rotate your hips. Backrests are not used. You
use your legs to thrust against the footrest to provide a link from your
paddle through your body to the craft. Paddles should be held as near
vertical as possible at the catch of the stroke. Balance is achieved by
keeping centre of the boat under your centre of balance or by use of the
paddles to either brace downwards or to pry upwards. This is done
continuously without conscious thought by the paddler. Marathon boats
are more unstable when not moving.


What sort of distance would you expect to cover per day?


What speed can you continuously paddle in flat water with no current?
Believe it or not most people manage 4-5km at a steady pace. If you
try on a
canal, you can pass a canal boat at the leagl 4kph, but he has a motor
and
he'll soon pass you as you tire.

I normally train over 4 miles per session on the canal. No canal boat
has any chance of keeping up, and certainly will not be able to pass me
unless I choose to stop. I usually pass several in a session. Some canal
boats, especially hired ones, try to go as fast as they can and create a
huge wash along the canal. These are the hardest to pass because you
have to climb up and over their wash. Note though that power boats on
the Thames can move much faster than canal boats and can create an even
bigger wash.

So, on a canal, for instance, ignoring
locks, you might manage say six hours paddling per day, so 24km per
day.
However, if the current of the river is flowing downstream at 2kph,
and you
are paddling against it, that at least halves your speed and distance
covered.

This bit makes sense assuming a base paddling speed as low as 4KPH.
Faster speeds are normal in GF touring and racing kayaks. I'm considered
slow and manage an average of 4-5 MPH and can paddle quite a bit faster
for short distances such as when overtaking canal boats. Sprinting past
to get through a bridge before the canal boat gets there and blocks the
hole is a fairly frequent occurance as is encountering another canal
boat coming in the opposite direction. I try to avoid becoming the
filling in a boat sandwich. I can't paddle for 6 hours though. I'm sure
I could build up to it but haven't any desire to.

(It doesn't necessarily increase it by as much on your return
journey either as your boat will usually descend at a slower rate than
the
flow of the river.)

But this bit is nonsense! Why would you go slower than the flow of the
river? If you did no paddling you would move at the same speed as the
flow. You are part of the flow. As soon as you start paddling
downstream, common sense tells you that you must be moving faster than
the flow!

How fit are you? Could you paddle 24km per day for four days?

I know I couldn't given my present level of fitness but many other
paddlers paddle far more on DW. IIRC the first 3 days of the 4 day races
are around 30 -35 miles. The total distance is 125 miles. Some paddlers
do this distance non stop paddling through the night. They try to catch
the high tide at Teddington just after it peaks because they want to
paddle with the flow rather than against it. The fastest flow is in the
3rd & 4th hours after high tide if I remember my RYA training properly,
but paddlers will be passing through Teddington before maximum flow.


If you must, I'd find some buddies at your local club, get some
experience
in and persuade some kind soul to drop you off upstream and you and a
couple
of others paddle downstream.

I agree 100% with this last bit.

David Kemper
Not a fan of nonsense.

"elyob" wrote in message
...

"Mike Buckley" wrote in message
...

Are most kayaks now made from plastic rather than GRP? Does anyone
have
manufacturer links, shops etc?

Google is a wonderful thing. Then again, try
http://www.s106156335.websitehome.co..._retailers.htm

Most playboats / creekers / river runners / general purpose boats
are
plastic. Proper sea-kayaks are GRP. Opens can be some form of
plastic -
usually.

I commend http://www.ukseakayakguidebook.co.uk/ and
http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/forum/ to you as other sources of
info.


Google is your friend for sure! I've met Dr Bennett's point of view
before
I've really met him! ;)

I think most people who meet him in real life actually value his
knowledge and advice.
In this ng though he really gets under some peoples skin. Those people
mainly deserted this ng and can be found on the forum Mike Buckley
recommended to you. What he forgot to mention though was his own vested
interest in directing you to that forum. See if you can discover who
looks after the sea kayaking bit. :-)


All the advice given is great, and I hope others getting into the
sport will
find this thread interesting. I surely have.

New to a sport means finding your feet, but I'm glad so much response
has
been generated by my enquiry. Looks like this has been the busiest
thread
for a while in uk.r.b.p .. :)

Oh yes! Just watch when Dr Bennett turns up though. There will either be
rattle tossing aplenty, or this place will become like a ghost group
again. For a while...

Of course its all done in the best possible taste!

David Kemper
Not a fan of *******! grin!

"David Kemper" wrote in message
...

"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
...

"elyob" wrote in message
. ..


Oh dear :-(
Lots to disagree with here!

I won't be carrying tons of stuff, but will still have a weeks
worth or so. Maybe as much as a tent, sleeping bag and clothes etc
..

So, how smelly do you want to get? I think you would be hard pushed to
get a
week's worth of kit in a modern kayak. Possibly a little more in a
longer,
older boat such as a GRP one, or perhas a Corsica or similar.
Otherwise, go
for a Canadian to carry your gear. But it will be heavy, so get wheels
for
portaging too. Better still go in a group, it's safer too.

For camping trips on a river like the Thames either a touring kayak or a
marathon racing kayak of the more stable variety would be ideally
suited. A sea kayak would be almost as good but heavier to portage. Slow
flowing rivers with long stretches of relatively flat water are not the
place to use short low volume play boats. A Canadian canoe is much
slower especially paddled solo. Canadians are ideal for a pair of
paddlers who want to cart a lot of cargo but aren't in any hurry. I find
my knees get sore paddling Canadian canoes.

No real disagreement, I do mention Sea Kayaks and tourers later. For a
beginner I don't think a marathon boat is ideal ( personal opinion though)



GRP rots. Apart from the seepage through the gel coat where it will be
cracked, it deteriorates with time and becomes osmotic. So you can
test a
boat and it appears watertight, but if you leave it long enough in the
water
it fills up osmotically.

Your experience with glass fibre boats must be radically different from
mine then. You do find ancient wrecked GF boats but ancient plastic
boats are often also rather beaten up. I have owned many GF boats and
about 6 plastic boats, and for long distances, GF wins every time.
Marathon paddlers (long distance specialist paddlers) universally use
glass fibre boats because they do the job better.

The point I was making is that most GRP boats are going to be a bit long in
the tooth, esp the ones advertised for £15 - £50 on ebay. I know I've sold
some. I've also destryed a couple. On old GRP osmotic leakage is a problem.
OPkay, so in a kayak it might not be so noticeable as you tend to ship some
water anyway. I'd also agree that a longer narrower boat is easier to paddle
in a straight line and they are faster. I did mention the Corsica, although
they are never going to be as fast as a kirton K1 - are they? But can you
get gear into a K1?


Since most second hand GRP boats will be getting a
bit long in the tooth - unless you go for a specialist boat, then look
for a
plastic boat. In fact, if you opt for a kayak, a sea-kayak or a
touring boat
with deck hatches would be adeal.

Elyob is planning a specialised type of paddling so a specialist boat
fits the requirement. Paddling a short plastic boat long distances could
put him off paddling all together.

Totally agree, don't see where I suggested a short plastic boat.


What sort of kayak/canoe should I look at for this type of beginners
tour?
I've used one previously that was in a friends garden, but it got
really
uncomfortable on my back from leaning back on the entrance edge. Is
this
because it may have been too small for me? I'm 6ft, 16st.

Sitting in a kayak curves your spine the wrong way and it does get
uncomfortable, so some people lean back - which is bad for paddling.
You nee
d to warm up, stretch your muscles and lean forwards to get the best
kayak
paddling position. It still gets uncomfortable.

It can be uncomfortable when you start to learn to paddle. Marathon
paddlers routinely paddle long distances without experiencing
discomfort.

This one didn't :-(



The best you can do is set the footrests, knee braces, and seat and
seat
back in the best position for you - and the trim of the boat. But
you'll
probably still get a sore back.

Knee braces? Seat back? No such things in a marathon boat! Your knees
are raised in the large cockpit area and are not covered by the deck of
the kayak. You brace your feet on the bottom of the boat and against the
footrest. You also operate the rudder with your feet (tiller bar between
your feet & protruding through a slot in the footrest). You sit on a
seat which allows you to rotate your hips. Backrests are not used. You
use your legs to thrust against the footrest to provide a link from your
paddle through your body to the craft. Paddles should be held as near
vertical as possible at the catch of the stroke. Balance is achieved by
keeping centre of the boat under your centre of balance or by use of the
paddles to either brace downwards or to pry upwards. This is done
continuously without conscious thought by the paddler. Marathon boats
are more unstable when not moving.

Here we do disagree, If doing a trip with kit, and are a beginner, I'm not
sure that a marathon boat is the best option.


What sort of distance would you expect to cover per day?


What speed can you continuously paddle in flat water with no current?
Believe it or not most people manage 4-5km at a steady pace. If you
try on a
canal, you can pass a canal boat at the leagl 4kph, but he has a motor
and
he'll soon pass you as you tire.

I normally train over 4 miles per session on the canal. No canal boat
has any chance of keeping up, and certainly will not be able to pass me
unless I choose to stop. I usually pass several in a session. Some canal
boats, especially hired ones, try to go as fast as they can and create a
huge wash along the canal. These are the hardest to pass because you
have to climb up and over their wash. Note though that power boats on
the Thames can move much faster than canal boats and can create an even
bigger wash.

True, a marathon boat will outrun a canal boat, but in general...

So, on a canal, for instance, ignoring
locks, you might manage say six hours paddling per day, so 24km per
day.
However, if the current of the river is flowing downstream at 2kph,
and you
are paddling against it, that at least halves your speed and distance
covered.

This bit makes sense assuming a base paddling speed as low as 4KPH.
Faster speeds are normal in GF touring and racing kayaks. I'm considered
slow and manage an average of 4-5 MPH and can paddle quite a bit faster
for short distances such as when overtaking canal boats. Sprinting past
to get through a bridge before the canal boat gets there and blocks the
hole is a fairly frequent occurance as is encountering another canal
boat coming in the opposite direction. I try to avoid becoming the
filling in a boat sandwich. I can't paddle for 6 hours though. I'm sure
I could build up to it but haven't any desire to.

(It doesn't necessarily increase it by as much on your return
journey either as your boat will usually descend at a slower rate than
the
flow of the river.)

But this bit is nonsense! Why would you go slower than the flow of the
river? If you did no paddling you would move at the same speed as the
flow. You are part of the flow. As soon as you start paddling
downstream, common sense tells you that you must be moving faster than
the flow!

Not nonsense. We can sit in the flow of a stream and watch smaller bits of
driftwood float past us. The drag of the hull in the water can make us
slower than the flow of the river.


How fit are you? Could you paddle 24km per day for four days?

I know I couldn't given my present level of fitness but many other
paddlers paddle far more on DW. IIRC the first 3 days of the 4 day races
are around 30 -35 miles. The total distance is 125 miles. Some paddlers
do this distance non stop paddling through the night. They try to catch
the high tide at Teddington just after it peaks because they want to
paddle with the flow rather than against it. The fastest flow is in the
3rd & 4th hours after high tide if I remember my RYA training properly,
but paddlers will be passing through Teddington before maximum flow.


You are equating yourself, an obviously knowledgable and experience marathon
paddler with a complete beginner. Unless he is exceedingly fit he will feel
the pain at the end of the first day - esp travelling upstream.


If you must, I'd find some buddies at your local club, get some
experience
in and persuade some kind soul to drop you off upstream and you and a
couple
of others paddle downstream.

I agree 100% with this last bit.

David Kemper
Not a fan of nonsense.

And obviously not a fan of smaller boats :-)

Rather than nonsense, just a different view.

Ewan Scott

"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
...

"David Kemper" wrote in message
...

"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
...

"elyob" wrote in message
. ..


much snippage, apologies to those who can't follow.

For camping trips on a river like the Thames either a touring kayak
or a
marathon racing kayak of the more stable variety would be ideally
suited. A sea kayak would be almost as good but heavier to portage.
Slow
flowing rivers with long stretches of relatively flat water are not
the
place to use short low volume play boats. A Canadian canoe is much
slower especially paddled solo. Canadians are ideal for a pair of
paddlers who want to cart a lot of cargo but aren't in any hurry. I
find
my knees get sore paddling Canadian canoes.

No real disagreement, I do mention Sea Kayaks and tourers later. For a
beginner I don't think a marathon boat is ideal ( personal opinion
though)

I also wouldn't recommend a very unstable (but much faster) marathon
boat.
A beginners marathon boat is not much different from a touring boat.
Long smooth skinned boats will always be quicker than short rough
skinned boats. Narrower boats are faster too but only for someone with
the skill and balance to stay upright in them. A beginner will need to
practice in stable boats until they become more experienced and can
handle a less stable kayak.


The point I was making is that most GRP boats are going to be a bit
long in
the tooth, esp the ones advertised for £15 - £50 on ebay. I know I've
sold
some. I've also destryed a couple.

A canoe club will have a variety of boats a beginner can borrow while
training. Once the beginner finds the most comfortable boat for them,
they can buy their own similar boat. Once in the racing community there
are always second hand boats available for sale. The club notice boards
usually have a choice of several.
You don't get much for £50 though.

On old GRP osmotic leakage is a problem.
OPkay, so in a kayak it might not be so noticeable as you tend to ship
some
water anyway. I'd also agree that a longer narrower boat is easier to
paddle
in a straight line and they are faster. I did mention the Corsica,
although
they are never going to be as fast as a kirton K1 - are they? But can
you
get gear into a K1?

I have done. I took a Discovery beginners marathon kayak down the Severn
from Welshpool loaded with camping gear. This involved small rapids and
shooting a weir under one of the road bridges. I thought I was in
trouble at one of the rapids as I was so heavily laden I got stuck on
the bottom and had to pull myself along by hand. I managed to get the
front stuck while the back was still in the current and ended up
sideways on to the flow. I did manage not to fall out and recovered by
going backwards for a short distance, totally out of control. Going
backwards in a boat with a rudder is not to be recommended in shallow
water as the overstern rudder is hinged to lift if bottoming, but the
hinge only works if you are going forwards.


Elyob is planning a specialised type of paddling so a specialist
boat
fits the requirement. Paddling a short plastic boat long distances
could
put him off paddling all together.

Totally agree, don't see where I suggested a short plastic boat.

Oh sorry, maybe I misunderstood. I also have a Master plastic boat but I
wouldn't want to go very far in it on flat water.



What sort of kayak/canoe should I look at for this type of
beginners
tour?

It can be uncomfortable when you start to learn to paddle. Marathon
paddlers routinely paddle long distances without experiencing
discomfort.

This one didn't :-(

:-) Maybe you weren't doing it right? Some expert coaching may have
helped your technique and posture.

Knee braces? Seat back? No such things in a marathon boat! Marathon
boats
are more unstable when not moving.

Here we do disagree, If doing a trip with kit, and are a beginner, I'm
not
sure that a marathon boat is the best option.

Not any marathon boat but a stable beginners marathon boat would be very
suitable. DW has been suggested as an aim so starting off by learning in
a marathon boat is very good ground work, and has to be better than
starting off in less suitable boats.



What sort of distance would you expect to cover per day?


I normally train over 4 miles per session on the canal. No canal
boat
has any chance of keeping up, and certainly will not be able to pass
me
unless I choose to stop.

True, a marathon boat will outrun a canal boat, but in general...

Marathon = long distance which is what paddling & camping on the Thames
will entail. No point in making it harder by paddling an old tub.


(It doesn't necessarily increase it by as much on your return
journey either as your boat will usually descend at a slower rate
than
the
flow of the river.)

But this bit is nonsense! Why would you go slower than the flow of
the
river? If you did no paddling you would move at the same speed as
the
flow. You are part of the flow. As soon as you start paddling
downstream, common sense tells you that you must be moving faster
than
the flow!

Not nonsense. We can sit in the flow of a stream and watch smaller
bits of
driftwood float past us. The drag of the hull in the water can make us
slower than the flow of the river.

Er, what is the hull dragging on? Think about it. We aren't talking
about very shallow water. The only thing I can see that might cause that
effect to be seen is windage.


How fit are you? Could you paddle 24km per day for four days?

I know I couldn't given my present level of fitness but many other
paddlers paddle far more on DW.

You are equating yourself, an obviously knowledgable and experience
marathon
paddler with a complete beginner.

No I'm not, I'm actually very unfit as I've not been paddling much
lately. I went only 2 miles on the canal last night and was feeling
quite tired by it. I need to paddle more often to rebuild my stamina &
fitness and to improve my paddling technique. I can talk about it, but
I'm not really very good at actually doing it! I'm trying to present a
novice with what is possible given some training and some practice. Most
of what I know is from knowledge gained second hand as one of my sons
raced for Great Britain and has paddled DW, including finishing the
course when DW was cancelled one year. He also won the Gudena long
distance race in Denmark. Experience and knowledge are gained through
practice and are also added to by observation. I've been on support
duties for DW several times.

Unless he is exceedingly fit he will feel
the pain at the end of the first day - esp travelling upstream.

Very true, but just like any other new form of exercise.

And obviously not a fan of smaller boats :-)

Not actually true either as some of the most enjoyable racing I have
done was in Wombats on the river Trent. I'm fairly large (bloater might
be more acurate) and cannot enter a Wombat cockpit without turning
sideways to get my hips past the cockpit rim. The Wombat sits so low
that a spraydeck is essential to prevent swamping. Races were over about
250 metres. The wash generated by these little boats is unbelievable!
Small boats are ideal for some things, long distances just aren't one of
those things.


Rather than nonsense, just a different view.

I know, but you can't have a debate when everyone agrees can you? I
still don't see how you manage to go slower than the flow of the water
when going downstream unless you are doing so deliberately or you are
being blown backwards by the wind.

David Kemper
Not a fan of unsuitable kit.

elyob wrote:

It'll be a while before I can afford a Knoydart! ... The guy at the tra=
ining=20
place down the road said me in a sea kayak is like a formula one car fo=
r a=20
trainee driver.

Eh?
Roos bought a 2nd hand glass McNulty for =A3200 last year. Needed a bit =

of work, but only with gelcoat filler. It's reasonably short for a sea=20
kayak and would be fine for a deep river dander. Sea boats tend to be=20
stable and straight running. They're relatively hard to turn, but how=20
maneuverable do you need somewhere where narrowboats can manage?

But as before, I would personally go for an open canoe for this job.

Pete.
--=20
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

David Kemper wrote:

A Canadian canoe is much slower especially paddled solo.

Yes, but this is only a problem if you're in a degree of hurry
inappropriate to an open boat! OP might be, but might not...

Canadians are ideal for a pair of
paddlers who want to cart a lot of cargo but aren't in any hurry.

It's a lot easier to paddle a Canadian 2 up from a technical skill point
of view, as well as just the extra motive power side. Solo open boat
needs a bit of practice with a good J stroke, and you can't just get in
and go to the same extent you can with 2 paddlers or a kayak. But with
a bit of practice solo open canoe does go places. Personally I find the
requirement of a bit more skill to work it is a nice thing (as long as
I don't get past what my own skills can deal with, of course!), but I
can see how people would just view it as making life difficult.

I find my knees get sore paddling Canadian canoes.

In flat water you can just sit on the seats. Where I come down off the
seats for rough stuff I actually find it's my ankles that suffer rather
than my knees, but the boats I use have been lined with Karrimat by
their owner. Overall, especially on flat water, I find the possibility
of more than one seating position makes the open boat more comfortable
than a kayak over a good stretch of time.

Your experience with glass fibre boats must be radically different from
mine then. You do find ancient wrecked GF boats but ancient plastic
boats are often also rather beaten up

And I've seen GRP hulks that were basically porus /completely/ restored
to seagoing quality with a suitable dose of TLC. TSKC has an anasacuta
which was basically a write-off hulk but was rescued, made waterproof
again, had a skeg added and a rear oval hatch in place of the old round
one. None of that would have been easily possible with an old plastic
wreck.

This bit makes sense assuming a base paddling speed as low as 4KPH.
Faster speeds are normal in GF touring and racing kayaks. I'm considered
slow and manage an average of 4-5 MPH and can paddle quite a bit faster
for short distances such as when overtaking canal boats. Sprinting past
to get through a bridge before the canal boat gets there and blocks the
hole is a fairly frequent occurance as is encountering another canal
boat coming in the opposite direction. I try to avoid becoming the
filling in a boat sandwich. I can't paddle for 6 hours though. I'm sure
I could build up to it but haven't any desire to.

I'm going slower, but /can/ paddle for 6 hours: sea touring this may
well be necessary. But from a touring perspective I'd say the where and
the whereabouts are probably more important to the paddler than the how
far and how fast, which are clearly uppermost in a marathon paddler's
mind for good reason. I'd sooner dander down the river in a canoe, but
clearly tastes vary.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Snip fair discussion.

Rather than nonsense, just a different view.

I know, but you can't have a debate when everyone agrees can you? I
still don't see how you manage to go slower than the flow of the water
when going downstream unless you are doing so deliberately or you are
being blown backwards by the wind.

Honestly, sitting in the Inazone waiting for others to catch up/ play on
waves - and not in any eddy, I was slowly drifting downstream, but small
twigs etc were floating slowly past at a faster rate. If we turn sideways to
the current we drift even slower - gives more time to read approaching
rapids.

Ewan Scott

In message
"Ewan Scott" wrote:

Snip fair discussion.

Rather than nonsense, just a different view.

I know, but you can't have a debate when everyone agrees can you? I
still don't see how you manage to go slower than the flow of the water
when going downstream unless you are doing so deliberately or you are
being blown backwards by the wind.

Honestly, sitting in the Inazone waiting for others to catch up/ play on
waves - and not in any eddy, I was slowly drifting downstream, but small
twigs etc were floating slowly past at a faster rate. If we turn sideways to
the current we drift even slower - gives more time to read approaching
rapids.

I'd find that a bit hard to believe. What will make a difference is
wind/breeze. The twigs may have been going faster than the water because of
wind, or more likely a head wind was slowing you down. In the absence of
wind effects, a boat should travel at the same speed as the water.

I think the original discussion was over a comment that progress was slower
downstream. I took that to mean that speed over the water was less when
going with the current than against it. Thus 2kph current and 4kph boat
speed = 2kph upstream, but not quite 6 kph downstream. This I find quite
likely, as there's less incentive to push hard when going downstream. Also,
in shallow water, bottom drag will be greater going downstream, as that is
related to speed over the ground.

Alan Adams

--
Alan Adams

http://www.nckc.org.uk/

"Mike Buckley" wrote in message
...

David Kemper wrote in message
...

I think most people who meet him in real life actually value his
knowledge and advice.
In this ng though he really gets under some peoples skin. Those
people
mainly deserted this ng and can be found on the forum Mike Buckley
recommended to you. What he forgot to mention though was his own
vested
interest in directing you to that forum. See if you can discover who
looks after the sea kayaking bit. :-)


I do - although quite why I should have any "vested interests" in
"directing" anyone to UKSKGB (which I edit) is totally beyond me given
that
the site is non-commercial and doesnt benefit anyone other than the
people
who contribute to and use the resource and create its success. VERY
much a
"community effort".

Hope it helps you.

It helps me not at all as I already knew who edits that section of the
guidebook.
It is getting to be like spam. Any time someone visits this newsgroup,
up will pop Mike Buckley telling them to visit "his" site instead.
At the same time paddlers moan about how this newsgroup is very quiet
and not as interesting as the old days. They like the simplicity of
newsgroups and the ease of searching them but some of them do their best
to ensure it remains dead. Surely either a paradox or vested interests
at work.

David Kemper
Not a fan of spammers.

"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
...
Snip fair discussion.

Rather than nonsense, just a different view.

I know, but you can't have a debate when everyone agrees can you? I
still don't see how you manage to go slower than the flow of the
water
when going downstream unless you are doing so deliberately or you
are
being blown backwards by the wind.

Honestly, sitting in the Inazone waiting for others to catch up/ play
on
waves - and not in any eddy, I was slowly drifting downstream, but
small
twigs etc were floating slowly past at a faster rate. If we turn
sideways to
the current we drift even slower - gives more time to read approaching
rapids.

Ewan Scott

Hmm, what do you think causes this effect?

David Kemper
Not a fan of drag.

"Alan Adams" wrote in message
...
In message
"Ewan Scott" wrote:

Snip fair discussion.

Rather than nonsense, just a different view.

I know, but you can't have a debate when everyone agrees can you?
I
still don't see how you manage to go slower than the flow of the
water
when going downstream unless you are doing so deliberately or you
are
being blown backwards by the wind.

Honestly, sitting in the Inazone waiting for others to catch up/
play on
waves - and not in any eddy, I was slowly drifting downstream, but
small
twigs etc were floating slowly past at a faster rate. If we turn
sideways to
the current we drift even slower - gives more time to read
approaching
rapids.

I'd find that a bit hard to believe. What will make a difference is
wind/breeze. The twigs may have been going faster than the water
because of
wind, or more likely a head wind was slowing you down. In the absence
of
wind effects, a boat should travel at the same speed as the water.

This is what I think too.


I think the original discussion was over a comment that progress was
slower
downstream. I took that to mean that speed over the water was less
when
going with the current than against it. Thus 2kph current and 4kph
boat
speed = 2kph upstream, but not quite 6 kph downstream. This I find
quite
likely, as there's less incentive to push hard when going downstream.
Also,
in shallow water, bottom drag will be greater going downstream, as
that is
related to speed over the ground.

This also makes sense, but in the context of paddling on the Thames, we
are talking about deep water.

David Kemper
Getting worried because I'm agreeing with people. Oh, the shame.....

"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
David Kemper wrote:

A Canadian canoe is much slower especially paddled solo.

Yes, but this is only a problem if you're in a degree of hurry
inappropriate to an open boat! OP might be, but might not...

Well yes but then you have to consider that the effort required to move
a craft with greater drag and more windage is going to limit the
distance the OP can go for a given amount of energy. That is to say
before he gets too tired.

Canadians are ideal for a pair of
paddlers who want to cart a lot of cargo but aren't in any hurry.

It's a lot easier to paddle a Canadian 2 up from a technical skill
point
of view, as well as just the extra motive power side. Solo open boat
needs a bit of practice with a good J stroke, and you can't just get
in
and go to the same extent you can with 2 paddlers or a kayak. But
with
a bit of practice solo open canoe does go places. Personally I find
the
requirement of a bit more skill to work it is a nice thing (as long
as
I don't get past what my own skills can deal with, of course!), but I
can see how people would just view it as making life difficult.

I like paddling Canadians solo and 2 up but it is more effort. I passed
my placid water level 2 coach in both canoes and kayaks, so have the
basic skills up to 3 star in both types of craft.


I find my knees get sore paddling Canadian canoes.

In flat water you can just sit on the seats. Where I come down off
the
seats for rough stuff I actually find it's my ankles that suffer
rather
than my knees, but the boats I use have been lined with Karrimat by
their owner. Overall, especially on flat water, I find the
possibility
of more than one seating position makes the open boat more comfortable
than a kayak over a good stretch of time.

My ankles also suffer. I prefer kneeling to sitting as I find I can
control the canoe better and move faster. Speed is always the goal when
you belong to the racing community. Even when there is no real need!

Your experience with glass fibre boats must be radically different
from
mine then. You do find ancient wrecked GF boats but ancient plastic
boats are often also rather beaten up

And I've seen GRP hulks that were basically porus /completely/
restored
to seagoing quality with a suitable dose of TLC. TSKC has an
anasacuta
which was basically a write-off hulk but was rescued, made waterproof
again, had a skeg added and a rear oval hatch in place of the old
round
one. None of that would have been easily possible with an old plastic
wreck.

Totally agree here. GRP (I normally say glass fibre but really mean
composite which can include kevlar and carbon as well) is normally a
lot lighter than plastic too.

This bit makes sense assuming a base paddling speed as low as 4KPH.
Faster speeds are normal in GF touring and racing kayaks. I'm
considered
slow and manage an average of 4-5 MPH and can paddle quite a bit
faster
for short distances such as when overtaking canal boats. Sprinting
past
to get through a bridge before the canal boat gets there and blocks
the
hole is a fairly frequent occurance as is encountering another canal
boat coming in the opposite direction. I try to avoid becoming the
filling in a boat sandwich. I can't paddle for 6 hours though. I'm
sure
I could build up to it but haven't any desire to.

I'm going slower, but /can/ paddle for 6 hours: sea touring this may
well be necessary. But from a touring perspective I'd say the where
and
the whereabouts are probably more important to the paddler than the
how
far and how fast, which are clearly uppermost in a marathon paddler's
mind for good reason. I'd sooner dander down the river in a canoe,
but
clearly tastes vary.

It is a very good thing tastes do vary, or we would find the bits of
water we use getting very crowded. I've tried various canoeing
disiplines but find marathon suits me best. I still dabble in other
boats including canoes. I sail and I drive power boats sometimes. I
paddle in the swimming pool too. When I want a change.

David Kemper
Not a fan of overcrowding.

"David Kemper" wrote in message
...

"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
...
Snip fair discussion.

Rather than nonsense, just a different view.

I know, but you can't have a debate when everyone agrees can you? I
still don't see how you manage to go slower than the flow of the
water
when going downstream unless you are doing so deliberately or you
are
being blown backwards by the wind.

Honestly, sitting in the Inazone waiting for others to catch up/ play
on
waves - and not in any eddy, I was slowly drifting downstream, but
small
twigs etc were floating slowly past at a faster rate. If we turn
sideways to
the current we drift even slower - gives more time to read approaching
rapids.

Ewan Scott

Hmm, what do you think causes this effect?

It could be as has been suggested wind, but I suspect it is more like
inertia. Honestly, I don't know. It isn't critical and I'm wishing I hadn't
made the comment now :-)

Ewan Scott

"Ewan Scott" wrote in message
...

"David Kemper" wrote in message
Hmm, what do you think causes this effect?

It could be as has been suggested wind, but I suspect it is more like
inertia. Honestly, I don't know. It isn't critical and I'm wishing I
hadn't
made the comment now :-)

grin I do that too! You say something and some clever dick comes along
and says prove it. You either have to justify what you said, which means
thinking about whether you are correct, or you can wriggle and waffle
and hope they get distracted by something else, or you can admit you
were wrong. Whichever choice you make you still learn something by
reconsidering that which you pronounced upon. (and no doubt believed to
be true.) Sometimes you have to change your beliefs.

David Kemper
Not a fan of wind.
Water sucks.

David Kemper wrote:

Well yes but then you have to consider that the effort required to move
a craft with greater drag and more windage is going to limit the
distance the OP can go for a given amount of energy. That is to say
before he gets too tired.

Indeed, though as with speed, if that distance is /enough/ then it's a
moot point. If he only wants to go X miles, and can, then that's okay,
and it's also okay if he doesn't really care how many miles as long as
he has a nice time and has somewhere to stop..

My ankles also suffer. I prefer kneeling to sitting as I find I can
control the canoe better and move faster. Speed is always the goal when
you belong to the racing community. Even when there is no real need!

Looking at the scenery and wildlife is more the goal for the touring
community! If the OP does want to cover a good chunk of water the kayak
would be better, but if his tastes are more like mine then lots of
luxury camp kit in a Canadian would be more the thing...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
David Kemper wrote:

Well yes but then you have to consider that the effort required to
move
a craft with greater drag and more windage is going to limit the
distance the OP can go for a given amount of energy. That is to say
before he gets too tired.

Indeed, though as with speed, if that distance is /enough/ then it's a
moot point. If he only wants to go X miles, and can, then that's
okay,
and it's also okay if he doesn't really care how many miles as long as
he has a nice time and has somewhere to stop..

My ankles also suffer. I prefer kneeling to sitting as I find I can
control the canoe better and move faster. Speed is always the goal
when
you belong to the racing community. Even when there is no real need!

Looking at the scenery and wildlife is more the goal for the touring
community! If the OP does want to cover a good chunk of water the
kayak
would be better, but if his tastes are more like mine then lots of
luxury camp kit in a Canadian would be more the thing...


Yes, I concede that you are absolutely correct in terms of gentle
touring/ pottering about. I was under the impression the OP was looking
to do DW next year though. (maybe that should be he is considering it a
possibility) This implies he wants to be able to cover a larger distance
and indeed will be disqualified on safety grounds should he fail to
complete any stage within the permitted time slot. DW in a solo Canadian
would be a nightmare trip. I'm sure someone will have done it though.

David Kemper
Not a fan of bad dreams.

"David Kemper" wrote in message
...

Yes, I concede that you are absolutely correct in terms of gentle
touring/ pottering about. I was under the impression the OP was looking
to do DW next year though. (maybe that should be he is considering it a
possibility) This implies he wants to be able to cover a larger distance
and indeed will be disqualified on safety grounds should he fail to
complete any stage within the permitted time slot. DW in a solo Canadian
would be a nightmare trip. I'm sure someone will have done it though.


Yes, I'm a competetive sort of chap so always try and push myself when
partaking in any sport. I find it tough to cycle slowly and always end up
leaving friends behind. Woops.

I'd presume that I'd be looking for distance rather than pottering when I
take up kayaking. I'm wondering whether I could beat the 15hour record of
the DW ... just kidding ...

David Kemper wrote:

Yes, I concede that you are absolutely correct in terms of gentle
touring/ pottering about.

I was thinking in the context of "I've got a little idea brewing where I
take a canoe/kayak up the Thames and camp out etc etc." from the very
first post.

I was under the impression the OP was looking
to do DW next year though

In which case, yes, a kayak (and a quick one at that) would be much better.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Peter Clinch" wrote in message
...
David Kemper wrote:

Yes, I concede that you are absolutely correct in terms of gentle
touring/ pottering about.

I was thinking in the context of "I've got a little idea brewing where I
take a canoe/kayak up the Thames and camp out etc etc." from the very
first post.

I was under the impression the OP was looking
to do DW next year though

In which case, yes, a kayak (and a quick one at that) would be much
better.

I think I'd like a bit of both from a single vessel. I'd like to potter up
to a pub on the river, but also (mainly) use it to build strength and
technique.

Cheers

elyob wrote:

I think I'd like a bit of both from a single vessel. I'd like to potter up
to a pub on the river, but also (mainly) use it to build strength and
technique.

Note that you can have plenty of strength and technique in an open canoe
and /still/ be a lot slower than a kayak. So if strength and technique
is all you're after on your Go For It competitive side, not necessarily
related to absolute speed and range, then a canoe can still do the job.
In fact you'll need to use /more/ technique to get a canoe moving well.

On the pottering front it's easier to get in and out of and is much more
flexible as regards loading. About 16' can go either 1 or 2 up, so the
loading flexibility extends to company. More of a pain to portage, but
easier to put a portage trolley in with the gear...

But to eat up the miles and still carry a reasonable bit of kit a
touring kayak will be quicker, and easier to get fluent at paddling. A
tourer won't be as quickly as a marathon boat like DK's suggesting, but
is (I'd think) a lot easier to do a week's worth of camping from!

As with bikes, you are stuck with the fact that One Size Does Not Fit
All Purposes.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

In article , David Kemper
wrote:

"elyob" wrote in message
. ..
I've got a little idea brewing where I take a canoe/kayak up the
Thames and
camp out etc etc.

That's as far as I've got. I investigated a school recently and may
start
training on their equipment soon. However, am unsure whether to go for
canoe
or kayak. I won't be carrying tons of stuff, but will still have a
weeks
worth or so. Maybe as much as a tent, sleeping bag and clothes etc ..

Also, I see some fibre glass canoes going pretty cheaply, but haven't
got
anywhere to store one at the moment. So, should I consider renting
one, or
finding a neighbour with a garden I can hide it in when not in use?

What sort of kayak/canoe should I look at for this type of beginners
tour?
I've used one previously that was in a friends garden, but it got
really
uncomfortable on my back from leaning back on the entrance edge. Is
this
because it may have been too small for me? I'm 6ft, 16st.

What sort of distance would you expect to cover per day?

Thanks for any advice

Nick

Apologies for sending email instead of posting. Finger trouble again
don't you know?

1st:
Down stream is always easier to paddle than up stream. Go with the flow.
Long skinny boats are quicker and easier to paddle, but only if you can
stay upright in them. If you tend to fall out regularly they are slower
than wide stable boats.
Fibre glass is lighter to carry than plastic (you need to carry your
boat around the locks), and usually smoother so slips through the water
easier. It is also easier to damage through impacts so is not so good
for rough water. Most canoe clubs will store your canoe for you. Keep
your kit to a minimum. It slows you down and you have to cart it around
the locks. Heavy kit will tire you out. If you can organise a support
crew to carry your overnight gear, you can meet them at preplanned
locations and you can then simply carry enough supplies to last you for
your days paddling. Drinks are the most important cargo. hiccup

2nd:
The Devises to Westminster Canoe Race takes place over Easter if you
want to see how other people do it.

3rd:
Don't forget about the weirs. Never forget about the weirs!
Dr Bennett will be along in a moment to tell you all about the weirs.
If he can be found that is, as he isn't responding much at the moment.
If he doesn't show up, try googling for Thames weirs on this ng, or the
rowing newsgroup.
Some of us enjoy a good row.
You might find the archives interesting if you ignore the mud slinging.
Dr. Bennett and mudslinging are never very far apart.
Shame really as he is such a helpful and knowledgeable old faXXXX chap.
;-)

David Kemper
Not a fan of slow coaches.

I heard he's a bit busy with DW and stuff atm...

Will be back in circulation next week.


Old faXXX
Not a fan of sick-notes


--