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Alex McGruer
 
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Default Sea kayak Leadership on trips.

For a sea kayaking day paddle ( Protected Water ) 10 to 15 KM return
trip. What level of leadership do you require at a club level?
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Peter Clinch
 
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Default Sea kayak Leadership on trips.

Alex McGruer wrote:
For a sea kayaking day paddle ( Protected Water ) 10 to 15 KM return
trip. What level of leadership do you require at a club level?


What's the nature of the club? If you're going out with consenting
adults who understand the implications and do not expect you to take
responsibility for their safety I don't see that you *need* any. And
beyond that, how are you measuring leadership, exactly?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

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Alex McGruer
 
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Default Sea kayak Leadership on trips.

Peter Clinch wrote in message ...
Alex McGruer wrote:
For a sea kayaking day paddle ( Protected Water ) 10 to 15 KM return
trip. What level of leadership do you require at a club level?


What's the nature of the club? If you're going out with consenting
adults who understand the implications and do not expect you to take
responsibility for their safety I don't see that you *need* any. And
beyond that, how are you measuring leadership, exactly?

Pete.


Actually that is about my take on any club event as well .

Just as long as no cash changes hands that should cover it.
In this world of litigation however that may not be the case.

I was wondering what standards are used elsewhere.
Our club uses CRCA 2 with current first aid training .
That would be BCU 4 or 5 star as leaders.
Local guiding opperations ( Proffesionals ) have much less skilled
people guiding tours.

We do a hald dozen club paddles or less but a ton of invitational and
posted paddles happen. Unsanctioned by the club but attended by all.
Sad Times when you fel the need to do that.

Leadership is measured for my purpose in a recognized ability to stay
out of trouble and get yourself and others out when things go wrong.
More utility than true leadership.
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Peter Clinch
 
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Default Sea kayak Leadership on trips.

Alex McGruer wrote:

I was wondering what standards are used elsewhere.
Our club uses CRCA 2 with current first aid training .
That would be BCU 4 or 5 star as leaders.


Quite a lot of the really experienced paddlers in Tayside Sea Kayak have
no stars to their name at all, and no intention of getting any either.
Why pay money for a piece of paper that tells them what they know they
can do?
We require current first aid certificates to use the local pool, but
it's not an issue for Real Trips.

There is a rule brought in because of litigation worries that if club
kit is involved there will be at least 3 people, but this is very much
resented as being stupidly inflexible by many of us and will hopefully
(IMHO) be kicked into touch in the not too distant.

Leadership is measured for my purpose in a recognized ability to stay
out of trouble and get yourself and others out when things go wrong.
More utility than true leadership.


But not anything you can measure. We use "common sense" too, but are
aware of its possible shortcomings if things turn nasty. But also the
case that if you try and pin down things in a legally watertight manner
the practical upshot is you never get to do anything or go anywhere.
Bottom line is that adventure sports based on freedom to do what you
will do not really fit into such frameworks. If you're that worried
about litigation then I'd take out insurance rather than try and cover
*all* the bases up front.
Caveat: ask different members of TSKC the same question and quite
possibly get a different answer. Above opinions are mine and not
Official TSKC Committee Policy.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

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Alex McGruer
 
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Default Sea kayak Leadership on trips.

Peter Clinch wrote in message ...
Alex McGruer wrote:

I was wondering what standards are used elsewhere.
Our club uses CRCA 2 with current first aid training .
That would be BCU 4 or 5 star as leaders.


Quite a lot of the really experienced paddlers in Tayside Sea Kayak have
no stars to their name at all, and no intention of getting any either.
Why pay money for a piece of paper that tells them what they know they
can do?


To a large exrent it is exactly like that here. A couple of the best
paddlers I know have no recognizable certified skills. One does hand
rolls in a sea kayak that is not that east to roll, the other has led
expeditions around the Baltic.

We require current first aid certificates to use the local pool, but
it's not an issue for Real Trips.

There is a rule brought in because of litigation worries that if club
kit is involved there will be at least 3 people, but this is very much
resented as being stupidly inflexible by many of us and will hopefully
(IMHO) be kicked into touch in the not too distant.


That may be what we are moving toward. We are looking at a standard of
one club guide level paddler to each 6 of less than high skill. That
is sort of OK as most of out paddles are full of people that I would
trust to pluck me out of the drink.
Most of the leaders now are CRCA 2 ( BCU 4 or 5 ) First aid is not a
big issue because the club just ran a wilderness and remote first aid
course with the Red Cross ; also most of the paddles I am on one or
more of the participants is a doctor.
The pool sessions are great. We use an olympic swim pool and the life
guards are some of the best. The Life Guard Factory Ltd operates out
of there. They are the local life guard training facility.

Leadership is measured for my purpose in a recognized ability to stay
out of trouble and get yourself and others out when things go wrong.
More utility than true leadership.


But not anything you can measure. We use "common sense" too, but are
aware of its possible shortcomings if things turn nasty. But also the
case that if you try and pin down things in a legally watertight manner
the practical upshot is you never get to do anything or go anywhere.
Bottom line is that adventure sports based on freedom to do what you
will do not really fit into such frameworks. If you're that worried
about litigation then I'd take out insurance rather than try and cover
*all* the bases up front.


Insurance here is prohibitive.

Caveat: ask different members of TSKC the same question and quite
possibly get a different answer. Above opinions are mine and not
Official TSKC Committee Policy.

Pete.


We require our leaders to carry flares, Spare paddle , Marine VHF,
First aid kit etc. We also have participants sign wavers.
This is to show Due Dilligence.

Thanks.
This is realy usefull .


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Peter Clinch
 
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Default Sea kayak Leadership on trips.

Alex McGruer wrote:

That may be what we are moving toward. We are looking at a standard of
one club guide level paddler to each 6 of less than high skill. That
is sort of OK as most of out paddles are full of people that I would
trust to pluck me out of the drink.


The problem I have with this sort of thing is basically that it doesn't
scale, and if you want to have watertight cover over any possible
weather and conditions then it needs to scale.
IMHO the thinking about it probably leads to the real increases in
safety, but saying "you will need X, Y and Z to do such and such" just
allows people to turn off their brains and/or becomes pointlessly
restrictive.

The "you must have 3 people with club kit" rule we have doesn't scale,
because it applies just as much to a former club coach who's moved down
south and coming up for a visit without her boat wanting to pootle
around a shallow loch you can stand up in as it does to people with
minimal experience wanting to paddle to Ireland in a gale. Where is the
distance line between needing X and needing Y. How big does the swell
have to be to need Z as well? I can't see it being a fully workable
system in a club of private individuals out to have fun.

In a fairly small informal organisation of what amounts to friends with
clues it's not so much of an issue, but as you get bigger it becomes
more of a problem, and there's no sure way of solving it without
removing some of the fun :-(

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

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Alex McGruer
 
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Default Sea kayak Leadership on trips.

Peter Clinch wrote in message ...
Alex McGruer wrote:

That may be what we are moving toward. We are looking at a standard of
one club guide level paddler to each 6 of less than high skill. That
is sort of OK as most of out paddles are full of people that I would
trust to pluck me out of the drink.


The problem I have with this sort of thing is basically that it doesn't
scale, and if you want to have watertight cover over any possible
weather and conditions then it needs to scale.
IMHO the thinking about it probably leads to the real increases in
safety, but saying "you will need X, Y and Z to do such and such" just
allows people to turn off their brains and/or becomes pointlessly
restrictive.

The "you must have 3 people with club kit" rule we have doesn't scale,
because it applies just as much to a former club coach who's moved down
south and coming up for a visit without her boat wanting to pootle
around a shallow loch you can stand up in as it does to people with
minimal experience wanting to paddle to Ireland in a gale. Where is the
distance line between needing X and needing Y. How big does the swell
have to be to need Z as well? I can't see it being a fully workable
system in a club of private individuals out to have fun.

In a fairly small informal organisation of what amounts to friends with
clues it's not so much of an issue, but as you get bigger it becomes
more of a problem, and there's no sure way of solving it without
removing some of the fun :-(

Pete.


Thanks Peter.
our club events , all of them that are on the sea are set for CRCA 1
level paddlers. BCU 3 + - Most are day trips and none particularly
arduous. Out Jan 1 splash for example is not a club event, The water
is to cold and the history is ,,,,,, Rough. It is good fun though.
Our trips in sheltered lochs , Aquaforte, Cape Broyle, Avondale, are
reasonably safe. A trip to say St. Pierre would never be a club event.
St. Pierre is a 16 nautical mile crossing or a little more with a
fetch from Nova Scotia ( 500 Miles) That I think would be like the
Ireland Crossing.
Even mundane trips can go south. Woody Island , Cape Broyle and
irelands Eye are three that I have been on that could have gone
better. It happens.
The Cape Broyle had 10 fair paddlers and 4 strong paddlers so it
turned out OK.
We would never leave in a gale but they happen.
Anyway , thanks
Alex
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