"Mike Buckley" wrote in message
...
I note your opinion. The Teith includes a rapid which forms a recognised
slalom site. Are we therfore to suggest that it also falls outside the
criteria of a run suitble for begineers, in your words, "a gentle river"?

Not suitable for complete beginners but it is clearly grade II so falls
within the original criteria.

You are absolutley right in suggesting that the Leny requires care.
However,
at LOW levels I contend it is far from being anywhere near a "grade III
plus" river below the Falls. I base this informed view on finding a level
3
assessment group on the river some years ago.

That is not an appropriate way of deciding the grading of a river. Several
years ago it was common practice for some assessors to assess on water that
was generally above the required grade with the proviso that the assessment
would be suspended over the higher grade section. Then someone was failed
a LIII assessment on the Orchy and complained that the reason for their
failure was down to their nerves following the running of a section of IV
which was above their experience. That practice was then banned so
assessors should not assess on the III stretch of Leny any more.

Instead of using that method of judging the grading, try looking at the
rapid from the point of view of the gradings definitions and you will see it
is clearly grade III. Alternatively, ask an experienced level IV or V coach
if you don't trust the views of the only coaches to join this thread so far.

However the grading of that particular rapid less critical than the upper
Leny. Your original comment that caused concern from both me and Jim was
the statement "If the Leny is low, its relatively gentle (ex the Falls of
course). " The problem with that is how to judge whether it is low if you
are a grade II paddler you may not appreciate the difference. Secondly, how
to ensure you get off the river before the falls which is a very high risk
situation to put anyone of this experience into. Fortunately, Ewan was not
lulled into a false sense of security and decided against the Leny, but I
can't understand why you suggested it.

Ewan Scott wrote in message
Forgive me for replying to my own post, but it seems the best way of
commenting on the results of my original enquiry.

We were aware of the perils of the Leny, so it really isn't an issue.
We wouldn't do it wet, I've seen it's power, and I've seen it dry so
can see the boulders below waiting to liquidise those without the
ability to stay upright... So No thanks to the leny anyway.

Well within your capabilities. But you made your decision based on your own
knowledge and appreciation of whats there, so I can only commend you on that
;-)

We paddled from the put it at Strathyre down into Loch Lubnaig ( you
can apparently only put in at the campsite if you are camping). The
river trip was v.gentle, but a headwind on Loch Lubnaig made the loch
trip interesting. We surfed back up the lock on our return.
The paddle back up the river was easy with a couple of portages due to
lack of water.

Sounds like you had fun then.

We also paddled Loch Achray and investigated the river towards Loch
Venacher until the midges got too much.

Maybe there should be a "midge factor" included in river/loch guides - - - -

However, we bought the Scottish Whitewater Guide and went on a road
trip to investigate various sections advised. LOL. Grand Tully almost
got us taking a chance at low water. but discretion was the better
part of wisdom. We may have bn okay, but without back up we were
knackered if anything went wrong.

Grantully would have been lots of fun - get it wrong early on and its a
long, bumpy swim to the pool at the bottom though.

We looked at a number of other locations, including the Teith, the
latter being very low, and lthough we could have paled it, it seemed
that we would be spending a lot of time bumping off rocks and it was a
long walk back to the start with only one car available.

Been there - done that! A bike is the answer although hitching can work! Not
well, but it can. Could be the wet-suit that put folk off of course - - - -

At Dumfries we looked at the Caul, really not a lot of water there,
there was enough going through the salom ladder, but evidence of
hidden debris cautioned us against giving it a try without knowing
what was under the surface below the breach. Maybe next time.

Its safe enough - let us know when next you're up and we'll "arrange"
something.

By next Winter we should have our 4 Star and be working towards Level
Three, so maybe we will be better equipped. Thanks anyway.

Best of luck - making good progress by the sound of it.

Ewan Scott
http://www.claytonwestscouts.org.uk

YIS - Mike.

Broooz wrote in message
news:H5S0b.2855$O15.24416276@news-

- - - - try looking at the
rapid from the point of view of the gradings definitions and you will see
it
is clearly grade III.

We'll just go round in circles with this one, clearly. I think I'll stick by
my view. I apprecaite your opinion - while still maintaining that its not a
III in present low water conditions.

Alternatively, ask an experienced level IV or V coach
if you don't trust the views of the only coaches to join this thread so
far.

Thanks - I'll base my advice on my own experience. It doesn't take a level
IV or V coach to grade the river.


However the grading of that particular rapid less critical than the upper
Leny. Your original comment that caused concern from both me and Jim was
the statement "If the Leny is low, its relatively gentle (ex the Falls of
course). " The problem with that is how to judge whether it is low if you
are a grade II paddler you may not appreciate the difference. Secondly,
how
to ensure you get off the river before the falls which is a very high risk
situation to put anyone of this experience into. Fortunately, Ewan was
not
lulled into a false sense of security and decided against the Leny, but I
can't understand why you suggested it.

We've dealt with that. In any event, I would expect anyone paddling an
unknown river, especially one where specific advice has been given with
regard to an area to avoid, to treat it with appropriate respect. Hardly
"lulling anone into a false sense of security" you'll agree.

"Mike Buckley" wrote in message
...

Thanks - I'll base my advice on my own experience. It doesn't take a level
IV or V coach to grade the river.

This was the problem. Your assessment of the river is incorrect. As a
result your advice was dangerously flawed. When two experienced coaches
point this out you decide to stick with your own counsel. Sorry Mike, but I
can't see the sense in that. Why not check your facts by asking a senior
coach that you trust. I am sure you cannot behave like this when leading
your scouts.

We've dealt with that. In any event, I would expect anyone paddling an
unknown river, especially one where specific advice has been given with
regard to an area to avoid, to treat it with appropriate respect. Hardly
"lulling anone into a false sense of security" you'll agree.

Not likely as your presumption implies a greater knowledge than was
reasonable. Now you are saying "treat with appropriate respect" but there
was no hint of that in your original response which is where both Jim and I
started off.

Broooz wrote in message
...
"Mike Buckley" wrote in message
...

Thanks - I'll base my advice on my own experience. It doesn't take a
level
IV or V coach to grade the river.

This was the problem. Your assessment of the river is incorrect. As a
result your advice was dangerously flawed. When two experienced coaches
point this out you decide to stick with your own counsel. Sorry Mike, but
I
can't see the sense in that. Why not check your facts by asking a senior
coach that you trust. I am sure you cannot behave like this when leading
your scouts.

Who are these "experienced coaches" and why is their opinion of any more
validity than mine?