"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...
On 14-Jun-2005, "donquijote1954"
wrote:

I'm considering a Necky Manitou (12'10") for light weight,
seat, looks
and price, but I wonder, what would I lose in speed to, say, a
Mainstream Biscayne (14'6")?

Impossible to say. There are many factors that affect speed
and overall
length isn't one of them.
=====================
That's not what I have always read. I've always thought that for
boats with the same width
and load, length is the determining factor on speed.
http://gorp.away.com/gorp/publishers/ics/how_cano.htm
http://www.evergreencanoe.com/canoe_design.html
http://www.solarnavigator.net/hull_speed.htm


I won't be going all out though, just keeping a medium pace
for workout.

If all you want is a workout, it doesn't matter how fast the
kayak is.
One hour of paddling is one hour of paddling regardless of what
you
paddle.

Mike

That's what I read too. The question is how a recreational boat would
be slower than a touring boat of the same lenght. I read a bottom that
makes for more initial stability also produces less speed. For example
the Biscayne at 14'6" was rated a mere 3 out of 5 in speed when it was
a Dagger Savannah...

http://www.dagger.com/product.asp?Bo...C&BoatI D=135

Yet it's rated as fast by several reviewers...

"Just bought a Savannah Expedition model. Love it -- fast, stable,
tracks beautifully. Great fit for me. Paddle some rivers, some lakes,
some of Great Lakes. When I demo'd 5 other boats the Savannah was the
hands-down winner."

http://www.paddling.net/Reviews/show....html?prod=483

If it's a work out you want Mike is spot on.
As a rule of thumb , longer boats witgh the same displacement are
generally faster. There are exceptions always.
You may be swapping speed and tracking fonr initial stability.
For scooting about a pond and a work out I am not sure it matters.
Alex

OK, here I found some interesting comparison regarding speed...

"The speed I get from the Manitou is also good. Since I can't
accurately factor for wind, current and waves, all I can do is give my
honest opinion/comparison which is that at my average
cruising/daypaddling speed of 3.2-3.8 mph, the effort is no different
between the Manitou and the QCC. The manitou starts to need a bit more
effort at my workout pace which is around 3.8-4.5. After around 4.5 mph
the bow seems to plunge a bit. I never could quite get 5 mph to show on
the GPS, but then I don't plan to race it, I just wanted to see if the
manitou could keep up, and I think it does. For day paddling purposes,
the Manitou performance, stability, and comfort is a 10."

The QCC I believe are full size kayaks so go and figure.

On 14-Jun-2005, "donquijote1954" wrote:

I read a bottom that
makes for more initial stability also produces less speed.

Take the book you read that in and toss it. There are a lot
of misconceptions in canoeing and kayaking. Most seem to have
to do with speed.

You can't predict speed by looking at one geometric factor in
a hull. Speed is a function of many factors.

Mike

Michael Daly wrote
[...]
Take the book you read that in and toss it. There are a lot
of misconceptions in canoeing and kayaking.

If I did that with all my canoeing books,
most of those should be thrown away :-)

But I admit that it really amazes me how most modern canoe books still
repeat the same nonsense over and over an again. While there is so
much really good information available. I understand there is a need
to simplify in books, but it could be done a lot better IMNHO.

Never understood the "TRACKING"" thingy. If the paddler indeed knows how to
"paddle" any boat tracks well. White Water boats are made to spin on a dime,
but track as good as anything else if proper paddling strokes are used.
"donquijote1954" wrote in message
oups.com...
That's what I read too. The question is how a recreational boat would
be slower than a touring boat of the same lenght. I read a bottom that
makes for more initial stability also produces less speed. For example
the Biscayne at 14'6" was rated a mere 3 out of 5 in speed when it was
a Dagger Savannah...


http://www.dagger.com/product.asp?Bo...DC&BoatI D=13
5

Yet it's rated as fast by several reviewers...

"Just bought a Savannah Expedition model. Love it -- fast, stable,
tracks beautifully. Great fit for me. Paddle some rivers, some lakes,
some of Great Lakes. When I demo'd 5 other boats the Savannah was the
hands-down winner."

http://www.paddling.net/Reviews/show....html?prod=483

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:32:07 -0400, "Grip" wrote:

Never understood the "TRACKING"" thingy. If the paddler indeed knows how to
"paddle" any boat tracks well. White Water boats are made to spin on a dime,
but track as good as anything else if proper paddling strokes are used.


Yep. Loaned my buddy my recreational Old Town Otter one day while I
paddled my Perception Dancer. He was amazed at how I made it track
(and I'm not that good) compared to his friend who'd taken him out one
day to paddle ww kayaks on flat water. I explained that I rarely did
ww (none by choice any more) and had adapted to paddling flat. He
thought I had a different kayak bottom than his friend had. Nope. It
is harder to get used to paddling straight in a ww kayak, but not all
that bad. And it's great for current and eddy lines in flat rivers.
It's not quite as fast going downstream in one, but it's a bit faster
going upstream. For me. I'm slow either way. I like to dawdle along
slowly anyway.

The best part of a keel in flat rivers is that you can do a cross
current ferry with almost no paddling going downstream.

Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: lid (strip the .invalid to email)

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

Impossible to say. There are many factors that affect speed
and _overall_length_ isn't one of them.

On 14-Jun-2005, "rick" wrote:

That's not what I have always read. I've always thought that for
boats with the same width
and load, length is the determining factor on speed.

Better read more carefully. Overall length is not a determining factor.
Waterline length is _one_ factor. In kayaks, there is _no_ correlation
between overall length and waterline length.

Mike

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

Impossible to say. There are many factors that affect speed
and _overall_length_ isn't one of them.

On 14-Jun-2005, "rick" wrote:

That's not what I have always read. I've always thought that
for
boats with the same width
and load, length is the determining factor on speed.

Better read more carefully. Overall length is not a
determining factor.
Waterline length is _one_ factor. In kayaks, there is _no_
correlation
between overall length and waterline length.
=======================
Now you're just trying to over your statement. What kind of
canoe do you have that the waterline length isn't inreased when
the "overall" length is inceased? I responded only to your
statemenet that length HAS NO effect on speed. That dosn't
appear to be true. If length plays no factor, then explain all
these other "many factors" that do.





Mike