On 15-Jun-2005, "rick" wrote:

What kind of
canoe do you have that the waterline length isn't inreased when
the "overall" length is inceased?

He's asking about kayaks. As I said, there is no correlation between
overall length and waterline length in kayaks.

I responded only to your
statemenet that length HAS NO effect on speed.

I never said it had no effect on speed. I said the effect cannot
be determined by knowing overall length. If you have waterline
length and you are comparing _very_similar_ hulls, you could make
some estimation of expected speeds.

Mike

On 15-Jun-2005, wrote:

I know where Mike is coming from and it is splitting hairs.

Hardly.

Normally an 18 foot long touring kayak will be much faster than a 14
foot boat.

That's nice, but the original poster is comparing two kayaks of fairly
similar length. When comparing a 14.5 foot to a 13 foot kayak, the
difference in length could easily be the difference in overhang alone.

Mike

Michael Daly wrote:
I never said it had no effect on speed. I said the effect cannot
be determined by knowing overall length. If you have waterline
length and you are comparing _very_similar_ hulls, you could make
some estimation of expected speeds.

Mike

They got similar overhang, but another question that intrigues me is
how the depth of the V affects speed, ie. how a recreational boat would
be slower than a touring boat of the same lenght. I read, for example,
that the Old Town T-160 is "slow" at 16' because of a shallow V bottom.

At the risk of getting too technical, can we list 5-10 key factors
effecting kayak speed? Then, can we go the next step, and ask, roughly,
which of these factors have the greatest impact on speed (perhaps a
rule-of-thumb weighted ranking)?

I'm new to this, and thus far, the discussion has been interesting.

On 15-Jun-2005, "donquijote1954" wrote:

They got similar overhang, but another question that intrigues me is
how the depth of the V affects speed, ie. how a recreational boat would
be slower than a touring boat of the same lenght. I read, for example,
that the Old Town T-160 is "slow" at 16' because of a shallow V bottom.

Again, this can't be known based solely on a vague description of one
property. As far as a shallow V bottom making a kayak slow - one of the
sea kayaks with the least resistance (Superior Kayaks Hawk) has a shallow
V hull and hard chines - both of which are claimed by various people to
make kayaks slow.

Mike

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...
On 15-Jun-2005, "rick" wrote:

What kind of
canoe do you have that the waterline length isn't inreased
when
the "overall" length is inceased?

He's asking about kayaks. As I said, there is no correlation
between
overall length and waterline length in kayaks.
===============
So, you're saying a 12' kayak has a waterline length the same as
a 16' kayak?



I responded only to your
statemenet that length HAS NO effect on speed.

I never said it had no effect on speed. I said the effect
cannot
be determined by knowing overall length. If you have waterline
length and you are comparing _very_similar_ hulls, you could
make
some estimation of expected speeds.
==============
I saw a statement that said length has NO bearing on speed. I
still see that as incorrect.




Mike

"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...
At the risk of getting too technical, can we list 5-10 key
factors
effecting kayak speed? Then, can we go the next step, and ask,
roughly,
which of these factors have the greatest impact on speed
(perhaps a
rule-of-thumb weighted ranking)?
===============
I asked him that. He snipped out the question.



I'm new to this, and thus far, the discussion has been
interesting.
==============
The speed thing has been discussed but nobody has ever explained
it very well...
The web sites I posted seemed ok, but they don't specifically
talk about kayaks. Never paddled one, but I can't imagine that
their design in the hull is that dis-similar from other boats.

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...
On 15-Jun-2005, "rick" wrote:


As I said, there is no correlation between
overall length and waterline length in kayaks.

Mike



I am sorry this is just drivel dressed up as an authoritative opinion.

Of course there is a correlation between overall length and waterline length
in kayaks.

If you took the overall length and the waterline length of all kayaks, say,
reviewed in www.paddling.net these values would correlate highly
significantly.

You should precede your NG postings with a disclaimer 'I have no real
appreciation of scientific concepts'.

VD

On 15-Jun-2005, "Van D" wrote:

If you took the overall length and the waterline length of all kayaks, say,
reviewed in www.paddling.net these values would correlate highly
significantly.

I looked at that web site and couldn't find any such data. Overall lengths
were stated, but not waterline lengths.

You should precede your NG postings with a disclaimer 'I have no real
appreciation of scientific concepts'.

So you are suggesting that all kayaks have the same shaped bow and stern?
If you actually look at kayaks, you'll see that that is not true.

Mike

On 15-Jun-2005, "rick" wrote:

He's asking about kayaks. As I said, there is no correlation
between overall length and waterline length in kayaks.
===============
So, you're saying a 12' kayak has a waterline length the same as
a 16' kayak?

??? You can't read very well, can you?

I never said it had no effect on speed. I said the effect
cannot be determined by knowing overall length. If you have waterline
length and you are comparing _very_similar_ hulls, you could
make some estimation of expected speeds.
==============
I saw a statement that said length has NO bearing on speed. I
still see that as incorrect.

I can't comment on what you think you see. I didn't write any
such thing.

Take a look at this graph:
http://www.greatlakeskayaker.ca/LengthVsResistance.htm

It shows the resistance a kayak generates at a speed of 4.5 knots
versus the overall length for a range of lengths from 5.14m to 5.24m.
This data is taken from Sea Kayaker magazine reviews. As you can
see, the data is all over the place. The variation in length is
less than 2% but the variation in resistance is over 13%. The line
on the graph is a trendline (linear regression) and is showing
that there is, according to this data, an _increase_ in resistance
with length. You folks are claiming the opposite.

While you may wave you hands in the air and make claims based on
misconceptions, I am making statements based on what is found
in real kayaks being sold to real people in the real world.

Mike