"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

Impossible to say. There are many factors that affect speed
and _overall_length_ isn't one of them.

On 14-Jun-2005, "rick" wrote:

That's not what I have always read. I've always thought that for
boats with the same width
and load, length is the determining factor on speed.

Better read more carefully. Overall length is not a determining factor.
Waterline length is _one_ factor. In kayaks, there is _no_ correlation
between overall length and waterline length.

Mike

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

Impossible to say. There are many factors that affect speed
and _overall_length_ isn't one of them.

On 14-Jun-2005, "rick" wrote:

That's not what I have always read. I've always thought that
for
boats with the same width
and load, length is the determining factor on speed.

Better read more carefully. Overall length is not a
determining factor.
Waterline length is _one_ factor. In kayaks, there is _no_
correlation
between overall length and waterline length.
=======================
Now you're just trying to over your statement. What kind of
canoe do you have that the waterline length isn't inreased when
the "overall" length is inceased? I responded only to your
statemenet that length HAS NO effect on speed. That dosn't
appear to be true. If length plays no factor, then explain all
these other "many factors" that do.





Mike

I know where Mike is coming from and it is splitting hairs. The
Eddyline Night Hawk for example drops fron the bow to the water line
very quickly and the stern is rather abrupt too. This makes it faster
than the over all length would indicate . The Old Chinook is a little
faster than most would think because of the same design feature. Most
boats have however a gracefull drop into and exit from the water
sometimes 2 feet from the tip if the bow. An old Seaward Quest is a
case in point. That said the Quest is a rocket.
Water line length has a large effect on speed, other design
charictaristics do as well. Sealution from Teiken / Wildernes Systems
for example is long but broad at the centre line. This boat enters the
water at the bow cutting nicely then fattens up like a barge a few feet
back giving in effect a second bow wave in stead of gently parting and
uniformly pushing the water out of her way. The lines to the stern
cause a drag that slows the boat down more as they are abrupt and don't
allow a smooth flow .
They are a great beginner boat but these are design realities.. The bow
also overhang the water line by about 16 inches at least.
The boats I preffer are not the fastest on the water but rather the
more gracefull. NDK Explored and Capella. Not that fast but nice boats.
Some boats break these simple rules because they can plane and get the
known water lines right up out od the way. This you will se if you surf
with WW boats.
There is all kinds of cool math on this but most of it is common sense
and theoretical math can be blown away because rules are narrow and
often just accepted theorys.
Normally an 18 foot long touring kayak will be much faster than a 14
foot boat. I have a friend in a 14' 6" boat that I van hardly keep up
with in my Explorer: But she is a bit of a race horse.
Allow another variable here. I cary 20 or 30 pounds of safety gear for
out trips, She carries a bottle of water and weighs 125 lbs. The boat
displaces less water and as it is short has little or no rocker.
Again variables.
Anything you put on the water will be fun.
If you want to paddle with Linda though , best trade the Lendal for a
Honda.
Alex

On 15-Jun-2005, "rick" wrote:

What kind of
canoe do you have that the waterline length isn't inreased when
the "overall" length is inceased?

He's asking about kayaks. As I said, there is no correlation between
overall length and waterline length in kayaks.

I responded only to your
statemenet that length HAS NO effect on speed.

I never said it had no effect on speed. I said the effect cannot
be determined by knowing overall length. If you have waterline
length and you are comparing _very_similar_ hulls, you could make
some estimation of expected speeds.

Mike

Well, settled, I've tried the Manitou and it's too small for me. Later
I tried a Tarpon 160 and found it very nice. It'll be my next boat.
THANKS ALL!!!

Best Wishes

Speed and waterline and blah, blah ,blah is whats in the catalog, period. I
started paddling a Necky Santa Cruz 12" boat 3 years ago. Now at 53 I have
switched to a lightening fast Necky Zoar. Is it as fast as a 17' 21 wide
kevlar boat? On paper NO. I my hands its faster because I'd spend most of
the time upsidedown in the kevlar boat. Speed is relative to the person
paddling and what they like and are comfortable with. If you want a 13 or
14' boat and it suits your needs, who cares how *fast* it is. One of you
young sprouts got probably paddle a Pungo faster then I can paddle anything.
But I like my boat best.
I think you should get the Necky mainly because we have 5 of them and we
like them a lot, personal preference. Works for me.
Bub
"donquijote1954" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi there!
I'm considering a Necky Manitou (12'10") for light weight, seat, looks
and price, but I wonder, what would I lose in speed to, say, a
Mainstream Biscayne (14'6")? I won't be going all out though, just
keeping a medium pace for workout.

Thanks!

Bub wrote:
Speed and waterline and blah, blah ,blah is whats in the catalog, period. I
started paddling a Necky Santa Cruz 12" boat 3 years ago. Now at 53 I have
switched to a lightening fast Necky Zoar. Is it as fast as a 17' 21 wide
kevlar boat? On paper NO. I my hands its faster because I'd spend most of
the time upsidedown in the kevlar boat. Speed is relative to the person
paddling and what they like and are comfortable with. If you want a 13 or
14' boat and it suits your needs, who cares how *fast* it is. One of you
young sprouts got probably paddle a Pungo faster then I can paddle anything.
But I like my boat best.
I think you should get the Necky mainly because we have 5 of them and we
like them a lot, personal preference. Works for me.
Bub

Thanks! The Necky Zoar is another option...

Take a long look at the necky Zoar Sport. 14 foot boat w/rudder well made
and stable. A little more boat then the Manitou. At $999 w/rudder, its not
bad.
Bub

"donquijote1954" wrote in message
oups.com...


Bub wrote:
Speed and waterline and blah, blah ,blah is whats in the catalog,
period. I
started paddling a Necky Santa Cruz 12" boat 3 years ago. Now at 53 I
have
switched to a lightening fast Necky Zoar. Is it as fast as a 17' 21 wide
kevlar boat? On paper NO. I my hands its faster because I'd spend most
of
the time upsidedown in the kevlar boat. Speed is relative to the person
paddling and what they like and are comfortable with. If you want a 13
or
14' boat and it suits your needs, who cares how *fast* it is. One of you
young sprouts got probably paddle a Pungo faster then I can paddle
anything.
But I like my boat best.
I think you should get the Necky mainly because we have 5 of them and we
like them a lot, personal preference. Works for me.
Bub

Thanks! The Necky Zoar is another option...

Bub wrote:
Take a long look at the necky Zoar Sport. 14 foot boat w/rudder well made
and stable. A little more boat then the Manitou. At $999 w/rudder, its not
bad.
Bub


Thanks!

Two questions: Can the padding be removed from the seat? and, Do you
get to use the rudder/keg or is it a nuisance?

I'll quote something...

'The Zoar Sport is a brilliant little boat. At 14' it is a touring boat
rather than a true sea kayak but I have found with mine that: 1) it
handles very well on fla****er, keeping close to the longer, "faster"
boats; 2) it handles extremely well in surf (force five conditions); 3)
it is solid and durable; and above all 4) it is a comfortable fit (I am
6'4" 240 lbs). Great boat.'

"donquijote1954" wrote in
oups.com:



Bub wrote:
Take a long look at the necky Zoar Sport. 14 foot boat w/rudder well
made and stable. A little more boat then the Manitou. At $999
w/rudder, its not bad. Bub


Thanks!

Two questions: Can the padding be removed from the seat? and, Do you
get to use the rudder/keg or is it a nuisance?

I'll quote something...

'The Zoar Sport is a brilliant little boat. At 14' it is a touring boat
rather than a true sea kayak but I have found with mine that: 1) it
handles very well on fla****er, keeping close to the longer, "faster"
boats; 2) it handles extremely well in surf (force five conditions); 3)
it is solid and durable; and above all 4) it is a comfortable fit (I am
6'4" 240 lbs). Great boat.'

Let me guess...you found that on paddling.net. Look at just about any boat
you'll find in the reviews section and you'll find similar praise. I once
read reviews on several dozen boats and most of them were from people that
owned the boat. There is a very strong positive bias there and in some
cases just plain misleading information.