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  #21   Report Post  
Peter
 
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Michael Daly wrote:

On 15-Jun-2005, "Van D" wrote:


If you took the overall length and the waterline length of all kayaks, say,
reviewed in www.paddling.net these values would correlate highly
significantly.



I looked at that web site and couldn't find any such data. Overall lengths
were stated, but not waterline lengths.


You should precede your NG postings with a disclaimer 'I have no real
appreciation of scientific concepts'.



So you are suggesting that all kayaks have the same shaped bow and stern?
If you actually look at kayaks, you'll see that that is not true.


No, he's suggesting that you're using the term "correlation"
incorrectly. When two variables are correlated it means that they have
a tendency to vary in the same manner, not that there is a one-to-one
correspondence in each particular case. So human height and weight are
two variables with a highly positive correlation. In general people who
are taller tend to be heavier although there are certainly many cases of
a particular individual being taller than someone else who is heavier.
Similarly kayaks with a long overall length have a tendency to also have
a long waterline length.

  #22   Report Post  
Bub
 
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Speed and waterline and blah, blah ,blah is whats in the catalog, period. I
started paddling a Necky Santa Cruz 12" boat 3 years ago. Now at 53 I have
switched to a lightening fast Necky Zoar. Is it as fast as a 17' 21 wide
kevlar boat? On paper NO. I my hands its faster because I'd spend most of
the time upsidedown in the kevlar boat. Speed is relative to the person
paddling and what they like and are comfortable with. If you want a 13 or
14' boat and it suits your needs, who cares how *fast* it is. One of you
young sprouts got probably paddle a Pungo faster then I can paddle anything.
But I like my boat best.
I think you should get the Necky mainly because we have 5 of them and we
like them a lot, personal preference. Works for me.
Bub
"donquijote1954" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi there!
I'm considering a Necky Manitou (12'10") for light weight, seat, looks
and price, but I wonder, what would I lose in speed to, say, a
Mainstream Biscayne (14'6")? I won't be going all out though, just
keeping a medium pace for workout.

Thanks!



  #23   Report Post  
rick
 
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"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 15-Jun-2005, "rick" wrote:

He's asking about kayaks. As I said, there is no
correlation
between overall length and waterline length in kayaks.

===============
So, you're saying a 12' kayak has a waterline length the same
as
a 16' kayak?


??? You can't read very well, can you?

===============
Very well. You seem to snip what you can't answer.



I never said it had no effect on speed. I said the effect
cannot be determined by knowing overall length. If you have
waterline
length and you are comparing _very_similar_ hulls, you could
make some estimation of expected speeds.

==============
I saw a statement that said length has NO bearing on speed. I
still see that as incorrect.


I can't comment on what you think you see. I didn't write any
such thing.

=================
Only with wiggling about the definition of is, eh? Again, how
does a longer kayak "overall" not have a longer waterline for
the same type hull?



Take a look at this graph:
http://www.greatlakeskayaker.ca/LengthVsResistance.htm

==================
Your own web site?



It shows the resistance a kayak generates at a speed of 4.5
knots
versus the overall length for a range of lengths from 5.14m to
5.24m.
This data is taken from Sea Kayaker magazine reviews. As you
can
see, the data is all over the place. The variation in length
is
less than 2% but the variation in resistance is over 13%. The
line
on the graph is a trendline (linear regression) and is showing
that there is, according to this data, an _increase_ in
resistance
with length. You folks are claiming the opposite.

=================
And you have yet to provide those many other factors. No one
claimed that nothing but length affected speed. But for a given
hull design, it still looks to me that that will be the major
factor according to the sites I posted.


While you may wave you hands in the air and make claims based
on
misconceptions, I am making statements based on what is found
in real kayaks being sold to real people in the real world.

===============
No, I'm posting web sites that state the opposite of you, not MY
opinion. Which of course you have snipped. Guess you didn't
read them. I was seriously asking for data. You have yet to
provide that, or answer the questions I asked.



Mike



  #24   Report Post  
donquijote1954
 
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Bub wrote:
Speed and waterline and blah, blah ,blah is whats in the catalog, period. I
started paddling a Necky Santa Cruz 12" boat 3 years ago. Now at 53 I have
switched to a lightening fast Necky Zoar. Is it as fast as a 17' 21 wide
kevlar boat? On paper NO. I my hands its faster because I'd spend most of
the time upsidedown in the kevlar boat. Speed is relative to the person
paddling and what they like and are comfortable with. If you want a 13 or
14' boat and it suits your needs, who cares how *fast* it is. One of you
young sprouts got probably paddle a Pungo faster then I can paddle anything.
But I like my boat best.
I think you should get the Necky mainly because we have 5 of them and we
like them a lot, personal preference. Works for me.
Bub


Thanks! The Necky Zoar is another option...

  #25   Report Post  
donquijote1954
 
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OK, here I found some interesting comparison regarding speed...

"The speed I get from the Manitou is also good. Since I can't
accurately factor for wind, current and waves, all I can do is give my
honest opinion/comparison which is that at my average
cruising/daypaddling speed of 3.2-3.8 mph, the effort is no different
between the Manitou and the QCC. The manitou starts to need a bit more
effort at my workout pace which is around 3.8-4.5. After around 4.5 mph
the bow seems to plunge a bit. I never could quite get 5 mph to show on
the GPS, but then I don't plan to race it, I just wanted to see if the
manitou could keep up, and I think it does. For day paddling purposes,
the Manitou performance, stability, and comfort is a 10."

The QCC I believe are full size kayaks so go and figure.



  #26   Report Post  
Bub
 
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Take a long look at the necky Zoar Sport. 14 foot boat w/rudder well made
and stable. A little more boat then the Manitou. At $999 w/rudder, its not
bad.
Bub

"donquijote1954" wrote in message
oups.com...


Bub wrote:
Speed and waterline and blah, blah ,blah is whats in the catalog,

period. I
started paddling a Necky Santa Cruz 12" boat 3 years ago. Now at 53 I

have
switched to a lightening fast Necky Zoar. Is it as fast as a 17' 21 wide
kevlar boat? On paper NO. I my hands its faster because I'd spend most

of
the time upsidedown in the kevlar boat. Speed is relative to the person
paddling and what they like and are comfortable with. If you want a 13

or
14' boat and it suits your needs, who cares how *fast* it is. One of you
young sprouts got probably paddle a Pungo faster then I can paddle

anything.
But I like my boat best.
I think you should get the Necky mainly because we have 5 of them and we
like them a lot, personal preference. Works for me.
Bub


Thanks! The Necky Zoar is another option...



  #27   Report Post  
Bub
 
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Whatever you decide on read the reveiws at www.paddling.net and see what
owners have to say.
Bub
"donquijote1954" wrote in message
oups.com...


Bub wrote:
Speed and waterline and blah, blah ,blah is whats in the catalog,

period. I
started paddling a Necky Santa Cruz 12" boat 3 years ago. Now at 53 I

have
switched to a lightening fast Necky Zoar. Is it as fast as a 17' 21 wide
kevlar boat? On paper NO. I my hands its faster because I'd spend most

of
the time upsidedown in the kevlar boat. Speed is relative to the person
paddling and what they like and are comfortable with. If you want a 13

or
14' boat and it suits your needs, who cares how *fast* it is. One of you
young sprouts got probably paddle a Pungo faster then I can paddle

anything.
But I like my boat best.
I think you should get the Necky mainly because we have 5 of them and we
like them a lot, personal preference. Works for me.
Bub


Thanks! The Necky Zoar is another option...



  #28   Report Post  
MikeSoja
 
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And let's not forget these two pages...

http://www.unold.dk/paddling/article...kvelocity.html

http://www.unold.dk/paddling/article...tatistics.html



Mike Soja

  #29   Report Post  
Michael Daly
 
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On 15-Jun-2005, Peter wrote:

When two variables are correlated it means that they have
a tendency to vary in the same manner, not that there is a one-to-one
correspondence in each particular case.


Fine - I'm using the term correctly. When you compare kayaks,
you will see that some have overhanging stem and/or stern, others have
plumb stem and/or stern while others still have raked ends. Thus, you
can find kayaks of the same overall length with very different waterline
lengths. It is not automatically true that if a kayak has a longer
overall length it necessarily has a longer waterline length. This is
especially true when comparing kayaks of roughly the same length. That
is why you cannot use overall length as a determining factor in estimating
speed or resistance - only waterline length plays any role.

What is so hard to understand in that?

Mike
  #30   Report Post  
donquijote1954
 
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Bub wrote:
Take a long look at the necky Zoar Sport. 14 foot boat w/rudder well made
and stable. A little more boat then the Manitou. At $999 w/rudder, its not
bad.
Bub



Thanks!

Two questions: Can the padding be removed from the seat? and, Do you
get to use the rudder/keg or is it a nuisance?

I'll quote something...

'The Zoar Sport is a brilliant little boat. At 14' it is a touring boat
rather than a true sea kayak but I have found with mine that: 1) it
handles very well on fla****er, keeping close to the longer, "faster"
boats; 2) it handles extremely well in surf (force five conditions); 3)
it is solid and durable; and above all 4) it is a comfortable fit (I am
6'4" 240 lbs). Great boat.'

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