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#21
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Michael Daly wrote:
On 15-Jun-2005, "Van D" wrote: If you took the overall length and the waterline length of all kayaks, say, reviewed in www.paddling.net these values would correlate highly significantly. I looked at that web site and couldn't find any such data. Overall lengths were stated, but not waterline lengths. You should precede your NG postings with a disclaimer 'I have no real appreciation of scientific concepts'. So you are suggesting that all kayaks have the same shaped bow and stern? If you actually look at kayaks, you'll see that that is not true. No, he's suggesting that you're using the term "correlation" incorrectly. When two variables are correlated it means that they have a tendency to vary in the same manner, not that there is a one-to-one correspondence in each particular case. So human height and weight are two variables with a highly positive correlation. In general people who are taller tend to be heavier although there are certainly many cases of a particular individual being taller than someone else who is heavier. Similarly kayaks with a long overall length have a tendency to also have a long waterline length. |
#22
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Speed and waterline and blah, blah ,blah is whats in the catalog, period. I
started paddling a Necky Santa Cruz 12" boat 3 years ago. Now at 53 I have switched to a lightening fast Necky Zoar. Is it as fast as a 17' 21 wide kevlar boat? On paper NO. I my hands its faster because I'd spend most of the time upsidedown in the kevlar boat. Speed is relative to the person paddling and what they like and are comfortable with. If you want a 13 or 14' boat and it suits your needs, who cares how *fast* it is. One of you young sprouts got probably paddle a Pungo faster then I can paddle anything. But I like my boat best. I think you should get the Necky mainly because we have 5 of them and we like them a lot, personal preference. Works for me. Bub "donquijote1954" wrote in message ups.com... Hi there! I'm considering a Necky Manitou (12'10") for light weight, seat, looks and price, but I wonder, what would I lose in speed to, say, a Mainstream Biscayne (14'6")? I won't be going all out though, just keeping a medium pace for workout. Thanks! |
#23
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"Michael Daly" wrote in message ... On 15-Jun-2005, "rick" wrote: He's asking about kayaks. As I said, there is no correlation between overall length and waterline length in kayaks. =============== So, you're saying a 12' kayak has a waterline length the same as a 16' kayak? ??? You can't read very well, can you? =============== Very well. You seem to snip what you can't answer. I never said it had no effect on speed. I said the effect cannot be determined by knowing overall length. If you have waterline length and you are comparing _very_similar_ hulls, you could make some estimation of expected speeds. ============== I saw a statement that said length has NO bearing on speed. I still see that as incorrect. I can't comment on what you think you see. I didn't write any such thing. ================= Only with wiggling about the definition of is, eh? Again, how does a longer kayak "overall" not have a longer waterline for the same type hull? Take a look at this graph: http://www.greatlakeskayaker.ca/LengthVsResistance.htm ================== Your own web site? It shows the resistance a kayak generates at a speed of 4.5 knots versus the overall length for a range of lengths from 5.14m to 5.24m. This data is taken from Sea Kayaker magazine reviews. As you can see, the data is all over the place. The variation in length is less than 2% but the variation in resistance is over 13%. The line on the graph is a trendline (linear regression) and is showing that there is, according to this data, an _increase_ in resistance with length. You folks are claiming the opposite. ================= And you have yet to provide those many other factors. No one claimed that nothing but length affected speed. But for a given hull design, it still looks to me that that will be the major factor according to the sites I posted. While you may wave you hands in the air and make claims based on misconceptions, I am making statements based on what is found in real kayaks being sold to real people in the real world. =============== No, I'm posting web sites that state the opposite of you, not MY opinion. Which of course you have snipped. Guess you didn't read them. I was seriously asking for data. You have yet to provide that, or answer the questions I asked. Mike |
#24
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Bub wrote: Speed and waterline and blah, blah ,blah is whats in the catalog, period. I started paddling a Necky Santa Cruz 12" boat 3 years ago. Now at 53 I have switched to a lightening fast Necky Zoar. Is it as fast as a 17' 21 wide kevlar boat? On paper NO. I my hands its faster because I'd spend most of the time upsidedown in the kevlar boat. Speed is relative to the person paddling and what they like and are comfortable with. If you want a 13 or 14' boat and it suits your needs, who cares how *fast* it is. One of you young sprouts got probably paddle a Pungo faster then I can paddle anything. But I like my boat best. I think you should get the Necky mainly because we have 5 of them and we like them a lot, personal preference. Works for me. Bub Thanks! The Necky Zoar is another option... |
#25
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OK, here I found some interesting comparison regarding speed...
"The speed I get from the Manitou is also good. Since I can't accurately factor for wind, current and waves, all I can do is give my honest opinion/comparison which is that at my average cruising/daypaddling speed of 3.2-3.8 mph, the effort is no different between the Manitou and the QCC. The manitou starts to need a bit more effort at my workout pace which is around 3.8-4.5. After around 4.5 mph the bow seems to plunge a bit. I never could quite get 5 mph to show on the GPS, but then I don't plan to race it, I just wanted to see if the manitou could keep up, and I think it does. For day paddling purposes, the Manitou performance, stability, and comfort is a 10." The QCC I believe are full size kayaks so go and figure. |
#26
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Take a long look at the necky Zoar Sport. 14 foot boat w/rudder well made
and stable. A little more boat then the Manitou. At $999 w/rudder, its not bad. Bub "donquijote1954" wrote in message oups.com... Bub wrote: Speed and waterline and blah, blah ,blah is whats in the catalog, period. I started paddling a Necky Santa Cruz 12" boat 3 years ago. Now at 53 I have switched to a lightening fast Necky Zoar. Is it as fast as a 17' 21 wide kevlar boat? On paper NO. I my hands its faster because I'd spend most of the time upsidedown in the kevlar boat. Speed is relative to the person paddling and what they like and are comfortable with. If you want a 13 or 14' boat and it suits your needs, who cares how *fast* it is. One of you young sprouts got probably paddle a Pungo faster then I can paddle anything. But I like my boat best. I think you should get the Necky mainly because we have 5 of them and we like them a lot, personal preference. Works for me. Bub Thanks! The Necky Zoar is another option... |
#27
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Whatever you decide on read the reveiws at www.paddling.net and see what
owners have to say. Bub "donquijote1954" wrote in message oups.com... Bub wrote: Speed and waterline and blah, blah ,blah is whats in the catalog, period. I started paddling a Necky Santa Cruz 12" boat 3 years ago. Now at 53 I have switched to a lightening fast Necky Zoar. Is it as fast as a 17' 21 wide kevlar boat? On paper NO. I my hands its faster because I'd spend most of the time upsidedown in the kevlar boat. Speed is relative to the person paddling and what they like and are comfortable with. If you want a 13 or 14' boat and it suits your needs, who cares how *fast* it is. One of you young sprouts got probably paddle a Pungo faster then I can paddle anything. But I like my boat best. I think you should get the Necky mainly because we have 5 of them and we like them a lot, personal preference. Works for me. Bub Thanks! The Necky Zoar is another option... |
#28
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And let's not forget these two pages...
http://www.unold.dk/paddling/article...kvelocity.html http://www.unold.dk/paddling/article...tatistics.html Mike Soja |
#29
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On 15-Jun-2005, Peter wrote:
When two variables are correlated it means that they have a tendency to vary in the same manner, not that there is a one-to-one correspondence in each particular case. Fine - I'm using the term correctly. When you compare kayaks, you will see that some have overhanging stem and/or stern, others have plumb stem and/or stern while others still have raked ends. Thus, you can find kayaks of the same overall length with very different waterline lengths. It is not automatically true that if a kayak has a longer overall length it necessarily has a longer waterline length. This is especially true when comparing kayaks of roughly the same length. That is why you cannot use overall length as a determining factor in estimating speed or resistance - only waterline length plays any role. What is so hard to understand in that? Mike |
#30
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Bub wrote: Take a long look at the necky Zoar Sport. 14 foot boat w/rudder well made and stable. A little more boat then the Manitou. At $999 w/rudder, its not bad. Bub Thanks! Two questions: Can the padding be removed from the seat? and, Do you get to use the rudder/keg or is it a nuisance? I'll quote something... 'The Zoar Sport is a brilliant little boat. At 14' it is a touring boat rather than a true sea kayak but I have found with mine that: 1) it handles very well on fla****er, keeping close to the longer, "faster" boats; 2) it handles extremely well in surf (force five conditions); 3) it is solid and durable; and above all 4) it is a comfortable fit (I am 6'4" 240 lbs). Great boat.' |
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