On 16-Mar-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

You would want to locate the 2x6 directly on one of these,
otherwise it would just be the skin of the van supporting the load. The
skin on these newer vehicles is so thin, it will easily bend, and you
will end up with a van with a concave roof. Not good where it rains a
lot!


Since the 2x is about 60 inches long and about 1.5 inches wide, the
bearing area is about 90 sq. in. Two of these means the weight is
carried on 180 sq in. With two 90 lb WW canoes - that's only
1 psi average pressure. Not as big a deal as you might think.

Contrary to Michaels suggestion, I would still recommend that the
logitudinal runners of the existing stock rack, support the crossmember
whether 2x4 or 2x6. These longitudinal runners span from one body

Sorry for the confusion, but I didn't mean to not use the longitudinals.
Rather, don't use the crossbars. They are not strong or stiff.

I know folks who have attaches a 2x4 to the longitudinals running
the length of the vehicle and then 2x4s as crossbars - the whole
thing held in place by bolting to the existing roof rack. Much
stronger than a factory rack.

Mike

Michael Daly wrote:
On 16-Mar-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

You would want to locate the 2x6 directly on one of these,
otherwise it would just be the skin of the van supporting the load.
The
skin on these newer vehicles is so thin, it will easily bend, and
you
will end up with a van with a concave roof. Not good where it rains
a
lot!


Since the 2x is about 60 inches long and about 1.5 inches wide, the
bearing area is about 90 sq. in. Two of these means the weight is
carried on 180 sq in. With two 90 lb WW canoes - that's only
1 psi average pressure. Not as big a deal as you might think.

Contrary to Michaels suggestion, I would still recommend that the
logitudinal runners of the existing stock rack, support the
crossmember
whether 2x4 or 2x6. These longitudinal runners span from one body

Sorry for the confusion, but I didn't mean to not use the
longitudinals.
Rather, don't use the crossbars. They are not strong or stiff.

I know folks who have attaches a 2x4 to the longitudinals running
the length of the vehicle and then 2x4s as crossbars - the whole
thing held in place by bolting to the existing roof rack. Much
stronger than a factory rack.

Mike

Yeah Mike, I think we got it sorted out, and I agree with what you say.
Especially regarding the stock cross bar. They are usually held in by
some plastic parts, and if you pull very hard, the whole cross-bar will
come off. That will give you pause, if you have been lashing your pride
and Joy to it, and driving down the road at 55.

Did you follow my suggestion about using 2x4 runners that would extend
further to the front. Most of the standard rack, are only 4 or 5 ft max
between cross bars. That leaves alot of a 18 ft double or longer,
unsupported.

Frtzw seems to be gitting the hang of this, we will see what he comes
up with. TnT

Tink recommends:
===============
Did you follow my suggestion about using 2x4 runners that would extend
further to the front. Most of the standard rack, are only 4 or 5 ft max
between cross bars. That leaves alot of a 18 ft double or longer,
unsupported.

Frtzw seems to be gitting the hang of this, we will see what he comes
up with. TnT
===============

I'm with you re the runners, but now what? So I've got runners
extending forward, past the standard short rack -- I like that idea.
But, what do you recommend I do with these 2X4 ends... since my bow,
curved as it is, will likely sit several inches above these 2X4 ends.
What/how do I construct to fit on these ends to support the bow. Just
foam perhaps? I'm stuck.

Cheers,
Wilf
===========

BCITORGB wrote:
Tink recommends:
===============
Did you follow my suggestion about using 2x4 runners that would
extend
further to the front. Most of the standard rack, are only 4 or 5 ft
max
between cross bars. That leaves alot of a 18 ft double or longer,
unsupported.

Frtzw seems to be gitting the hang of this, we will see what he comes
up with. TnT
===============

I'm with you re the runners, but now what? So I've got runners
extending forward, past the standard short rack -- I like that idea.
But, what do you recommend I do with these 2X4 ends... since my bow,
curved as it is, will likely sit several inches above these 2X4 ends.
What/how do I construct to fit on these ends to support the bow. Just
foam perhaps? I'm stuck.

Cheers,
Wilf
===========

Evening frtzw, you would want to install a cross 2x4 at the ends of the
2x4 extended runner. What you are trying to accomplish is to have your
kayak supported as far forward and as far back as possible on the top
of your van. The cross 2x4 could have the foam hull supports attached
to them for the kayak to actually set on.

If you recall in the other thread, Wolfgang made a comment about his
kayak being 9.5 ft. long, and setting just fine on the standard van
rack. And he is proably correct. the problem is yours is twice as long,
meaning you would have a long unsupported overhang of the boat beyond
the standard rack, which was evident in your picture of the kayak on
you van. He could get away with driving all the miles he did with his
kayak, but you will eventually have trouble and damage your boat, and
especially if you tighten the ropes on the bow and stern to much.

I have made a similar rack for my vehicle previously, and used for bike
rack, ski rack, and now kayak, wind surfer, and other misc junk. I dont
feel that it is necessary to fit the cross piece to the curve of the
top. Just bolt it on top of the runners near the end, as far forward
as you can get it. It should clear the curve of the roof, and extend
out as wide as the van body, maybe even a couple of inches wider, and
gives you some clearance to get a tie down rope or strap around the
cross piece. The cross piece this way rest on the extended runners
which transmits the weight to the body support structures, and not just
the skin.

Sort of a big square frame on top of your van. All this needs to be
attached to the existing rack. If you have gutters, I suggest using
turnbuckles and strapping to make a tiedown between the extended cross
piece, and the gutter. This will keep the front of the rack from trying
to lift off while driving down the road.

The main advantage of the rack is you do not have to tie the kayak down
by passing ropes through the windows and across the inside the van.
Depending on where these would go through, you may not be able to get
your doors open. This result in the accompaning amusement of watching a
short plump guy crawl in and out through the drivers window. Personally
I have trouble seeing that, or as in my case, a big plump guy! With a
rack, you tie the kayak down to the rack, and use the bow and stern
lines to maintain the kayak on top of your car, and not flying off as
you drive down the road, which is usually not considered to be
desirable.

If you tranport your bikes much, you can make some brackets using bike
axle and quick release for much less than Thule parts, and bolt them on
to the 2x4 cross pieces. (I'll try to dig one out for you and take a
picture and email.) On your Aerostar, you could probably put 6 bikes
on top. Try pricing out a 6 bike Thule, and this whole thing can be
made for less than $20 plus if for bikes, maybe $10 more/bike. plus
tiedown rope and foam blockes that you already have. Add one kayak,
stir, and have a good time. When you get the second kayak, and you will
have a second one, you will be set, maybe even a third, when you have
another buddy go with you! Which you should! Definite safety in
numbers! And even more fun!

Hopefully this clears some of your questions, TnT

Tik recommends:
===================
Sort of a big square frame on top of your van. All this needs to be
attached to the existing rack. If you have gutters, I suggest using
turnbuckles and strapping to make a tiedown between the extended cross
piece, and the gutter. This will keep the front of the rack from trying
to lift off while driving down the road.
======================

Thanks Tink. After my last post, I got to thinking about what you and
Michael had suggested and I realised that a frame/box was what you were
getting at.

Clearly I'll have cross pieces fore and aft (as far in either direction
as possible). I'm also thinking about adding another cross piece
somewhere in between, near the center of the hull. Or do you guys think
that would be overkill?

I'm also getting the impression that most people don't care too much
whether the cross pieces reflect the curvature of the hull. I was
thinking at least a bit of a "V" (keeping in mind that the load should
be carried by the keel, not the sides of the hull -- so a wider "V" as
opposed to a deeper one). Again, is this overkill?

Finally, Michael, I think, recommended 2X6's for the cross pieces. That
makes sense to me in terms of "meeting" the upward hull curvature of
fore and aft sections.

So, if I can just get you guys to sign off on this project, I'll be off
to the lumber yard.

Cheers,
Wilf
===========

On 18-Mar-2005, "BCITORGB" wrote:

I'm also getting the impression that most people don't care too much
whether the cross pieces reflect the curvature of the hull.

I do!

I was
thinking at least a bit of a "V" (keeping in mind that the load should
be carried by the keel, not the sides of the hull -- so a wider "V" as
opposed to a deeper one). Again, is this overkill?

You want the most support you can get. This is especially true with a
plastic hull. You can either cut into a deep crosspiece (like a 2x6)
or make a saddle that bolts to the crosspiece. The latter will be more
flexible in allowing for lots of different configurations.

If you have a skin-on-frame kayak or a canoe, you don't need a saddle
since you can carry it upside down on its gunnels. Not many factory
kayaks have a flat enough deck to carry upside down easily on a flat
crossbar. I know folks that do this, however. If you rest the
kayak on its side (as with J racks or stackers) you only need padding.

Mike

Michael suggests:
===============
You want the most support you can get. This is especially true with a
plastic hull. You can either cut into a deep crosspiece (like a 2x6)
or make a saddle that bolts to the crosspiece. The latter will be more
flexible in allowing for lots of different configurations.
============

See what you think about this: I cut deep into the 2x6 crosspiece
(rectangular cut) and then create a sling using a fairly wide webbing
strap (perhaps 1.5" wide to correspond to the 1.5" cross-section of the
2x6).

I don't know if this qualifies as a "saddle", but it would seem to
conform ideally to the hull curvature and also transfer the mass of the
kayak, via straps, to the crosspiece. The issue here, I guess, is
ensuring that the straps can be securely mounted to the crosspiece
(grommets etc, eh?).

Or am I getting too complicated (and perhaps flimsy) here?

Michael, you have an uncanny ability to "send me back to the drawing
board". Thanks, I appreciate the input.

Cheers,
Wilf
===========

On 17-Mar-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

Did you follow my suggestion about using 2x4 runners that would extend
further to the front. Most of the standard rack, are only 4 or 5 ft max
between cross bars. That leaves alot of a 18 ft double or longer,
unsupported.

There's no point in supporting the hull further apart than half its length.
For an 18 ft kayak, that means no more than 9 ft between crossbars.

Realistically, four or five feet between crossbars is plenty. If it gets
much longer, rocker might get in the way. You should be tying down the
bow and stern anyway, so you'll be providing plenty of support for
the vessel against wind, bumps etc.

Mike