"BCITORGB" wrote in message
ups.com...
Wolfgang says:
==============
In theory, this means anyone soloing
from the back seat would have less affect on trim than in a canoe, and
it
should be easier to balance. Unfortunately, the other seat is also
closer
to center which means it would take more weight to counterbalance
there. On
the other hand, if there is a forward hatch or some other way to get
weight
up near the bow, it would take considerably less to do the job.
===============

Wolfgang, that was pretty much my thinking as well, but I thought,
given the wealth of experience around this forum, that I'd ask.

It would be just like me to have given this a theoretical one-over,
only to have missed some fairly obvious practical variables. As a
lifetime klutz, I speak from experience. If it can be screwed up, I'll
be the one to do it (reality NEVER correlates with my abstractions!).

So, what's the worst that can happen? You die, right?

Wolfgang
um.......you won't sue me, will you?

Wolfgang opines:
=============
So, what's the worst that can happen? You die, right?

Wolfgang
um.......you won't sue me, will you?
====================

On the second point, my name's neither Tinker nor Weiser.

On the first point, in light of the reaction you got on the Florida
accident thread, I'll just leaving sleeping dogs lie. My theoretical
abstractions never include death, but, with reality, you can never be
sure.

Wilf

BCITORGB wrote:
Wolfgang opines:
=============
So, what's the worst that can happen? You die, right?

Wolfgang
um.......you won't sue me, will you?
====================

On the second point, my name's neither Tinker nor Weiser.

On the first point, in light of the reaction you got on the Florida
accident thread, I'll just leaving sleeping dogs lie. My theoretical
abstractions never include death, but, with reality, you can never be
sure.

Wilf

Now BCITORGB, or is it Wilf, or frtwz906, I dont know who you really
are to file any legal papers, so you are safe for the time being!

I can't speak for SW, whether he knows anything about putting rocks in
kayaks or not. I know I would not recommend it, especially if you just
load the bottom of the boat with loose stones. Big problems result, in
a kayak that perchance should roll, and the inside of the top, becomes
the inside of the bottom, now all loaded down with all those loose
stones. Makes rolling back up with you on now the bottom, upside down
very difficult, as in how long can you hold your breath!

Even a wet exit and subsequent attempt to drain boat that is now full
of water, in addition to all those rocks, may be difficult if not
impossible to T-Bone your kayak if you have assistance, or especially
self rescuing. In other words, the solution for wrong design, is not to
upset the design stability of the boat, by loading the keel with
ballast.

Unnecessary dead weight adversely affect the design characteristics of
the boat, the limit of the offset is dependent on your paddling skill
and strength. I suspect that what the riverman can manage is a distant
vision for most of us mere mortals. The only solution is a different
design, or as has been recommended moving the live weight nearer the
center of effort, or the center of motion back to the center of effort,
which is you.

The easiest design change would be a larger rudder in your boat, which
would require more leg strength and action to maintain control. Don't
think of the rudder as a steering device, but as a trim device, to
control windage or current. Most paddle boats, even with rudder are
best steered with proper paddling technique, not the rudder!

An additional device that I have heard of, though not seen, is a strap
on skeg. Though the strap creates some additional drag, it would be a
small price to pay, for the increase in control under the windy
conditions. Also the skeg works better than the rudder if there is wave
action that is lifting the rudder clear of the water. The rudder does
no good when out of the water, and can actually act as a sail under the
"wrong" conditions. Causing even more steering difficulties, so the
first option of a larger rudder can also be counter-productive. Plus
for the rudder to be effective, you must maintain forward motion that
becomes less in abundance as you try to paddle into a head wind or
cross wind, and the boat tries to turn down wind.

The third option is to stay home with a cup of warm chocolate, setting
in the easy chair. Now the suggestor of these suggestions, accepts no
liabilities for any of the above recommendation, and all
recommendations are subject to peer review. Hence there can be no law
suits, or wet suits, or dry suits filed that would hinder your
enjoyment, or my enjoyment of the compromises of life!

BTW give a trip report of your weekend travels! TnT

Tink requests a trip report:

OK, Tink, here goes...

This was the shake-down cruise for Barbie (my 15-year old) and me and,
of course, the Necky Amaruk. There were a number of things that we
needed to figure out. Yesterday we turned back because it was a bit too
windy and choppy. Under normal circumstances (that is, not a shake-down
cruise) we would clearly have ventured out. However, as we were trying
to get a feel for the craft, we thought discretion the better part of
valor.

As part of the shake-down, I wanted to determine if I could get the
kayak onto the roof-rack by myself. For starters, I'd affixed two
pool noodles to the front and back struts of the roof rack.

The process I'd decided on involved opening the front passenger door
and placing a third pool noodle (with a longitudinal slice to the
mid-point) over/along the top of the door frame. The kayak was then
placed on the ground at an angle -- with a vertex just past the right
rear bumper and with the kayak veering just to the right of the open
passenger door. I then lifted the front end of the kayak onto the open
door. With the front end of the kayak secure (OK, it was wobbly) on top
of the front door frame, I then walked to the back of the kayak and
hoisted the back end onto the roof rack. Next, back to the front end,
and lifting the front off the door frame and onto the front of the roof
rack. Voila! Now it was just a matter of tying down the kayak. This
could easily be done by me (a little more height would have been
advantageous). A plastic dairy crate came in handy when tying the boat
to the car.

NOTE: I'M OPEN TO ALTERNATE, BETTER WAYS OF GETTING A 90+ POUND KAYAK
ONTO AN AEROSTAR VAN

To get the kayak off the van, we reversed the process. Barbie and I
then walked the boat down the concrete boat ramp and into the water. I
was wearing shorts and sandals, so I walked the boat through the
shallow waters away from the ramp and onto the sandy beach. One of our
objectives was to see if Barbie could stay entirely dry.

At the beach, we put our spray skirts and life jackets on. Barbie
stepped into the front cockpit and remained dry in doing so. After
she's secured her spray skirt, I straddled the kayak and got in.
Barbie paddled away from shore as I worked on securing my spray skirt.
As I have a very negative Ape Coefficient (also known as short, stubby
arms) I've always had trouble with reaching around to get the back of
spray skirts secured. No different this time. Eventually I decided to
go with the front of the skirt around the coaming and I don't know
what happening in the back. Suffice to say, this is something I'll
have to work on. Nonetheless, the front portion of the skirt stayed in
place throughout and kept paddle droplets from splashing my bare legs.

From the Ambleside Sailing Club beach, Barbie and I headed east, past
Ambleside Beach and past the doggie beach just to the east. East of the
doggie beach, we turned northward into the mouth of the Capilano River.
As it was high tide, we were able to pass under the railway bridge
(just as the CNR was shunting a freight train across it) and proceed
about 200 meters further up the river.

We then returned to the mouth of the Capilano and headed west, with the
bow pointed toward the John Lawson Park jetty. On our westward trip, we
passed the doggie park once more, with several dogs frolicking in the
water or chasing sticks their owners had thrown. Once we passed
Ambleside Point and its First Nations totem with out-stretched,
welcoming arms, we turned in towards the beach. Here, a few families
were strolling along the beach combing for treasures. As we neared the
Ambleside Sailing Club clubhouse, the spot of our launch, we veered
south so as to get past the Ambleside jetty. Several fishermen had
lines out into the water and we made a wide berth around so as to not
disturb these lines. A number of ropes into the water also indicated
that someone had placed crab traps there.

From the Ambleside jetty to the John Lawson Park jetty we were careful
to avoid logs and other wood debris that the high tide had floated.
Once past the John Lawson Park jetty we retraced our path to Ambleside
and the beach where we'd launched.

As this was our shake-down cruise, we still had a few objectives to
meet. We successfully beached the kayak and Barbie was able to get out
without getting her feet wet. Getting the kayak back on to the van was
trouble-free. Within 15 minutes we were on the road. Five minutes later
we pulled into the driveway at home.

A successful first trip (4.2 kilometers) in gorgeous, by now, 15C,
bright, sunny, weather.

Can't wait to get out again. Weather forecast calls for more good
weather (possibly up to 19C -- that's "double it and add 30" for the
metrically impaired, as per an ancient Bob and Doug MacKenzie skit)
tomorrow.

frtzw906

BCITORGB wrote:
Tink requests a trip report:

OK, Tink, here goes...

This was the shake-down cruise for Barbie (my 15-year old) and me
and,
of course, the Necky Amaruk. There were a number of things that we
needed to figure out. Yesterday we turned back because it was a bit
too
windy and choppy. Under normal circumstances (that is, not a
shake-down
cruise) we would clearly have ventured out. However, as we were
trying
to get a feel for the craft, we thought discretion the better part of
valor.

As part of the shake-down, I wanted to determine if I could get the
kayak onto the roof-rack by myself. For starters, I'd affixed two
pool noodles to the front and back struts of the roof rack.

The process I'd decided on involved opening the front passenger door
and placing a third pool noodle (with a longitudinal slice to the
mid-point) over/along the top of the door frame. The kayak was then
placed on the ground at an angle -- with a vertex just past the right
rear bumper and with the kayak veering just to the right of the open
passenger door. I then lifted the front end of the kayak onto the
open
door. With the front end of the kayak secure (OK, it was wobbly) on
top
of the front door frame, I then walked to the back of the kayak and
hoisted the back end onto the roof rack. Next, back to the front end,
and lifting the front off the door frame and onto the front of the
roof
rack. Voila! Now it was just a matter of tying down the kayak. This
could easily be done by me (a little more height would have been
advantageous). A plastic dairy crate came in handy when tying the
boat
to the car.

NOTE: I'M OPEN TO ALTERNATE, BETTER WAYS OF GETTING A 90+ POUND KAYAK
ONTO AN AEROSTAR VAN

To get the kayak off the van, we reversed the process. Barbie and I
then walked the boat down the concrete boat ramp and into the water.
I
was wearing shorts and sandals, so I walked the boat through the
shallow waters away from the ramp and onto the sandy beach. One of
our
objectives was to see if Barbie could stay entirely dry.

At the beach, we put our spray skirts and life jackets on. Barbie
stepped into the front cockpit and remained dry in doing so. After
she's secured her spray skirt, I straddled the kayak and got in.
Barbie paddled away from shore as I worked on securing my spray
skirt.
As I have a very negative Ape Coefficient (also known as short,
stubby
arms) I've always had trouble with reaching around to get the back of
spray skirts secured. No different this time. Eventually I decided to
go with the front of the skirt around the coaming and I don't know
what happening in the back. Suffice to say, this is something I'll
have to work on. Nonetheless, the front portion of the skirt stayed
in
place throughout and kept paddle droplets from splashing my bare
legs.

From the Ambleside Sailing Club beach, Barbie and I headed east,
past
Ambleside Beach and past the doggie beach just to the east. East of
the
doggie beach, we turned northward into the mouth of the Capilano
River.
As it was high tide, we were able to pass under the railway bridge
(just as the CNR was shunting a freight train across it) and proceed
about 200 meters further up the river.

We then returned to the mouth of the Capilano and headed west, with
the
bow pointed toward the John Lawson Park jetty. On our westward trip,
we
passed the doggie park once more, with several dogs frolicking in the
water or chasing sticks their owners had thrown. Once we passed
Ambleside Point and its First Nations totem with out-stretched,
welcoming arms, we turned in towards the beach. Here, a few families
were strolling along the beach combing for treasures. As we neared
the
Ambleside Sailing Club clubhouse, the spot of our launch, we veered
south so as to get past the Ambleside jetty. Several fishermen had
lines out into the water and we made a wide berth around so as to not
disturb these lines. A number of ropes into the water also indicated
that someone had placed crab traps there.

From the Ambleside jetty to the John Lawson Park jetty we were
careful
to avoid logs and other wood debris that the high tide had floated.
Once past the John Lawson Park jetty we retraced our path to
Ambleside
and the beach where we'd launched.

As this was our shake-down cruise, we still had a few objectives to
meet. We successfully beached the kayak and Barbie was able to get
out
without getting her feet wet. Getting the kayak back on to the van
was
trouble-free. Within 15 minutes we were on the road. Five minutes
later
we pulled into the driveway at home.

A successful first trip (4.2 kilometers) in gorgeous, by now, 15C,
bright, sunny, weather.

Can't wait to get out again. Weather forecast calls for more good
weather (possibly up to 19C -- that's "double it and add 30" for the
metrically impaired, as per an ancient Bob and Doug MacKenzie skit)
tomorrow.

frtzw906

Hey frtwz, I'll give you an "A+" for the trip, and an "A++" for the
first trip report. Especially the part about taking your daughter out.
Those are some of the best times shared. So congradulations to her
also! Any trip that ends with just wet feet, and a happy heart is good
for an "A+"!


Next time though, start your shake down cruise on the dry land before
getting in the water, practice putting the skirt on while setting on
dry land, have your partner check that you are doing it right. Nothing
can ruin your trip, like shipping a boat load of water and then playing
submarine. Not that the kayak will likely sink, since you have lots of
flotation, but it can sure **** off your partner, if they get wet and
have to swim for it.

Also practice releasing the skirt, once you have it properly on.
Nothing can ruin your day, if you are upside down, and find that the
pull loop is stuck inside, or the skirt is so tight that you can't get
it to release, or your gloves are in the way, and you're running out of
air.

I had to learn both the above lessons the hard way, luckily, not the
hardest way. By that I mean, after I almost drown my wife and I, and
she got all wet swimming in our scummy pond water, she began talking to
me about a month later. Sucking an excess of water would have been
easier!

Also remember it is not air temp that is the most important, but water
temp. You mention wearing shorts and sandles. I also read your post
about wetsuits earlier, and wondered how cold the water was. Did you
try swimming in it, to see the effect on you. I read an account one
time about Navy SEALS that drowned while trying to swim just a short
distance to shore, in the cold water, and these guys were strong
swimmers. In other words don't take the cold water too lightly. You did
not say how far out from shore you were, but unless you can stand on
the bottom, you had better be prepared to swim. I am just getting to
know and like you, and would not want anything nasty to happen to you.

But good report, anyway, and I enjoyed reading it since I have been
stuck inside today. Weather here in Denver is weird at times, in fact
most of the time. Last week we had temps in the high 60F, and today the
heaviest snow of the winter. But it melts fast, and the grass will
start coming up green in a short while, and the ice is off the lake, so
soon I will be out chasing rainbows and pirate ships, or whatever it is
that drives us to leave a perfectly good sofa, and go paddle! TnT

Tink says:
=============
Also remember it is not air temp that is the most important, but water
temp. You mention wearing shorts and sandles. I also read your post
about wetsuits earlier, and wondered how cold the water was. Did you
try swimming in it, to see the effect on you. I read an account one
time about Navy SEALS that drowned while trying to swim just a short
distance to shore...
==============

My budget doesn't allow for a wetsuit yet (Father's Day perhaps... I
keep hinting), so shorts and sandals will have to do. As to swimming in
the water, not me my friend. However, both daughters are cold-blooded
and have been known to "swim" in January or February, but, I need to
add, NOT serious "I'm swimming for my life"-type swimming. But I take
your point. You need to know, however, we're ALWAYS wearing our PFD's.

As to distance from the sho 5 meters to 300 meters (max).

I'm a pedal and paddle fan. I have two daughters, one shares my pedal
passion, the other prefers the paddling. Either way, I've got a
partner.

I got a chuckle out of your anecdote about dumping your wife. Many
years ago, I (we?) owned a 21' sailboat. I'd sailed all my life, but my
wife had NEVER been on a sailboat. For the first trip, I decided
(foolish me) to take the boat within 500 meters of the open Pacific at
Nootka Sound (plenty of valor, very little discretion!). Needless to
say, that began the process of selling the sailboat. I've had a hard
time building up "outdoorsy" credibility with my wife since. Bottom
line: never dunk your wife or scare her sh*tless with the open Pacific
in May.

frtzw906

BCITORGB wrote:
Tink says:
=============
Also remember it is not air temp that is the most important, but
water
temp. You mention wearing shorts and sandles. I also read your post
about wetsuits earlier, and wondered how cold the water was. Did you
try swimming in it, to see the effect on you. I read an account one
time about Navy SEALS that drowned while trying to swim just a short
distance to shore...
==============

My budget doesn't allow for a wetsuit yet (Father's Day perhaps... I
keep hinting), so shorts and sandals will have to do. As to swimming
in
the water, not me my friend. However, both daughters are cold-blooded
and have been known to "swim" in January or February, but, I need to
add, NOT serious "I'm swimming for my life"-type swimming. But I take
your point. You need to know, however, we're ALWAYS wearing our
PFD's.

PFD's, are designed to help the Coasties find your ...er, remains! Next
time down at the water, go for a swim with the PFD on. You can't really
swim, and you don't float that well either. Now I speak from the
perspective of weighing in at around 265-280 lbs, stark naked. Not a
pretty thing to see!

I think class III PFD provides for 15 lbs of flotation. That won't even
keep my head up. After a serious thump on the head, while wind surfing,
I wear a helmet most of the time now. Those Biking helmet made out of
styrofoam with a cover, add some flotation, don't weigh to much, and
protect from the incidental thump. One story I read was of a experience
sea kayaker who got caught in the surf zone, and after about 15 rolls
in the rocks, was finally able to wet exit. His helmet was smashed, but
luckily his head survived still attached with some bruises.

I also went for FJ wetsuit with flotation jacket, and an oversized PFD
that I wear over the standard if things get too hairy. I can hear some
out there saying what a wuss, but I figured that 15 lbs of flotation on
a 150 lb person, or 10% was good for them, then I need around 30 lbs
for me. There is never enough flotation.

I am also experimenting with using a boogie board as a self rescue
device. I have heard mixed reports about using paddle floats for self
rescue. Under the conditions that you would likely use a paddle float,
heavy seas, you might find them less than ideal. Something more to play
with when you are out there shaking down the boat, remember to shake
down the crew, and all your gear! That's the great part about boating,
you can get more money tied up in the incidentals than in the boat
itself! :-)

Now try swiming, and you realize even with the flotation, I would have
a hard time making it 300 meters to shore. The Navy SEALs were less
than 50 meters!

I heard the definition of a Boat: A boat is a hole in the water that
you dump money into to fill, and it just gets bigger!

As to distance from the sho 5 meters to 300 meters (max).

I'm a pedal and paddle fan. I have two daughters, one shares my pedal
passion, the other prefers the paddling. Either way, I've got a
partner.

I got a chuckle out of your anecdote about dumping your wife. Many
years ago, I (we?) owned a 21' sailboat. I'd sailed all my life, but
my
wife had NEVER been on a sailboat. For the first trip, I decided
(foolish me) to take the boat within 500 meters of the open Pacific
at
Nootka Sound (plenty of valor, very little discretion!). Needless to
say, that began the process of selling the sailboat. I've had a hard
time building up "outdoorsy" credibility with my wife since. Bottom
line: never dunk your wife or scare her sh*tless with the open
Pacific
in May.

frtzw906

My wife and I went peddaling on our first and almost last date. We
laugh about it yet today, if I get to busy telling her how to do
something. But as you know, I don't really have a problem with that at
all!

Whatever you do, keep it fun! TnT

BCITORGB wrote:
Tink says:
=============
Also remember it is not air temp that is the most important, but
water
temp. You mention wearing shorts and sandles. I also read your post
about wetsuits earlier, and wondered how cold the water was. Did you
try swimming in it, to see the effect on you. I read an account one
time about Navy SEALS that drowned while trying to swim just a short
distance to shore...
==============

My budget doesn't allow for a wetsuit yet (Father's Day perhaps... I
keep hinting), so shorts and sandals will have to do. As to swimming
in
....snip...

frtzw906

I meant to mention regarding "wet suits", there is a fellow paddler up
your way that I have conversed with regularly, by the name of Dave
Kruger. I think he is actually down in Columbia River/Portland area,
but closer than Denver for sure and familiar with ocean paddling. Dave
strongly recommends wet suit over dry suits, and is often on Paddlewise
discussion group.

I got mine on Ebay, brand new, for 25% of what I would have paid in
store. I had to wait for the right size to come along, XXXL-Long, but
was worth the wait. Try some on at a dive store to get your size, then
watch eBay, and unless your a paddling oddity like me, you can probably
pick up something for you and your partner for not too much. Remember
you both need one! TnT

On 13 Mar 2005 12:57:34 -0800, "BCITORGB"
wrote:


(snipped)

The process I'd decided on involved opening the front passenger door
and placing a third pool noodle (with a longitudinal slice to the
mid-point) over/along the top of the door frame. The kayak was then
placed on the ground at an angle -- with a vertex just past the right
rear bumper and with the kayak veering just to the right of the open
passenger door. I then lifted the front end of the kayak onto the open
door. With the front end of the kayak secure (OK, it was wobbly) on top
of the front door frame, I then walked to the back of the kayak and
hoisted the back end onto the roof rack. Next, back to the front end,
and lifting the front off the door frame and onto the front of the roof
rack. Voila! Now it was just a matter of tying down the kayak. This
could easily be done by me (a little more height would have been
advantageous). A plastic dairy crate came in handy when tying the boat
to the car.

NOTE: I'M OPEN TO ALTERNATE, BETTER WAYS OF GETTING A 90+ POUND KAYAK
ONTO AN AEROSTAR VAN

Well, if you're willing to take the chance that you'll be driving home
without a door on the side of your van, I suppose your way is okay.
Careless though I am, I like to have my doors stay on the vehicle.

I have a friend with a Suvvie. He had the same problem. There's an
attachment that you can put on your rack that has a nice firm bar
sticking out from the side of the vehicle. You put one end of the
'yak on the bar and lift the other end onto the rack, then move the
first end over to the rack, remove the bar, and you're set. He loves
it. I don't know where he bought it, but I think he just went back to
where he got his rack. If it's expensive (I didn't ask him), you can
probably do something makeshift with a metal or pvc pipe.

Since I'm hard on things and don't care about scratches, I'd just put
one end leaning against the back of the vehicle and start lifting and
shoving the other end. Or get a rope up front and pull. Or any
combination of the above. I don't regard my vehicles (or my boats) as
being up there with the Mona Lisa. They get scratched, so what?

Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.

http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: lid (strip the .invalid to email)

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 03:50:26 -0600, Cyli
wrote:

On 13 Mar 2005 12:57:34 -0800, "BCITORGB"
wrote:

The process I'd decided on involved opening the front passenger door
and placing a third pool noodle (with a longitudinal slice to the
mid-point) over/along the top of the door frame. The kayak was then
placed on the ground at an angle -- with a vertex just past the right
rear bumper and with the kayak veering just to the right of the open
passenger door. I then lifted the front end of the kayak onto the open
door. With the front end of the kayak secure (OK, it was wobbly) on top

NOTE: I'M OPEN TO ALTERNATE, BETTER WAYS OF GETTING A 90+ POUND KAYAK
ONTO AN AEROSTAR VAN

Well, if you're willing to take the chance that you'll be driving home
without a door on the side of your van, I suppose your way is okay.
Careless though I am, I like to have my doors stay on the vehicle.

I have a friend with a Suvvie. He had the same problem. There's an
attachment that you can put on your rack that has a nice firm bar
sticking out from the side of the vehicle. You put one end of the
'yak on the bar and lift the other end onto the rack, then move the
first end over to the rack, remove the bar, and you're set. He loves
it. I don't know where he bought it, but I think he just went back to
where he got his rack. If it's expensive (I didn't ask him), you can
probably do something makeshift with a metal or pvc pipe.

I think it is Thule which has an extension bar that fits inside the
regular crossbar. 547 - Outrigger Lift Assist.

This is used as you describe, by pulling it out, resting one end of
the boat on it, then lifing the other end onto the other crossbar,
then sliding the first end onto the crossbar.

This puts weight only on the rack, and no contact with the vehicle.

They are soon adding a device which will lift the boat onto the roof,
once you place it at waist level.

Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
--
At the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom