At Jon Walpole’s excellent site
http://www.cse.ogi.edu/~walpole/kayaking.html I was struck by the fact
that most of the boats in the photo gallery have upturned ends and no
rudder. These are the obvious (to me) visual attributes. I think a
couple of additional attributes are a tendency, on average, toward more
rocker and lower deck, than the American designs. I would have referred
to this as the Greenland design until Brian corrected me. Maybe the
better term is British design.

British, American, Greenland, Alaskan - it's really all so much semantics.
Generically speaking most people tend to refer to kayaks with fine ends, over
hanging ends or upswept ends as a Greenland design. As for what exactly
constitutes a true Greenland or Alaskan design is something that I don't think
even the purists can agree on.
Why the group to which you refer is primarily (or exclusively) using
"Greenland" design boats without rudders is anybody's guess. In fact, if you
asked each member of the group that very question you would be likely to get a
different answer out of each one of them. I have paddled many of the same areas
portrayed on Jon Walpole's site in more Alaskan type boats - Pacific Water
Sports Seal and Mariner's Coaster, simply because that's what was available. I
had a great time!
I will go out on a limb here (no surprise there :-) and say that the
majority of boats available recreationally today seem lean heavily towards the
Greenland influence. I believe this is more a result of marketing then anything
else. That stodgy bunch of die hard traditionalists in the United Kingdom from
which we get the BCU has always favored this type of boat. I have heard it
suggested that this is the result of their closer proximity to Greenland, then
to Alaska, more then any other particular reason. Whether or not this is true I
cannot say with any certainly.
While beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I think most people will agree
that Greenland style boats look sexier then their Alaskan cousins. I also feel
that the finer ends allow for a bit smoother ride. I have to believe that more
people choose kayaks (and cars for that matter) based more on appearance then
performance. There's nothing wrong with that! Some other reasons a person might
chose a particular boat would include the price, the color (don't laugh, it's
true), their buddy uses one and likes it, their instructor uses one, some high
profile paddler endorses it, it's easier to do bracing and rolling in for
people who do not have a strong brace or roll, and every once in a long while
because of performance in the type of paddling one intends to actually do in
that boat.
Very few of us are ever actually going to paddle from California to Hawaii,
or circumnavigate New Zealand. So choosing a boat for that purpose is really
kinda pretentious and silly. You should try a number of different boats and try
to choose one that you like - for whatever reasons happen to be important to
you - and enjoy!

Scott
So.Cal.

Ki Ayker wrote:

At Jon Walpole’s excellent site
http://www.cse.ogi.edu/~walpole/kayaking.html I was struck by the fact
that most of the boats in the photo gallery have upturned ends and no
rudder. These are the obvious (to me) visual attributes. I think a
couple of additional attributes are a tendency, on average, toward more
rocker and lower deck, than the American designs. I would have referred
to this as the Greenland design until Brian corrected me. Maybe the
better term is British design.

British, American, Greenland, Alaskan - it's really all so much semantics.

Agreed and as North American manufacturers catch on that the domestic market is
hungry for higher performance boats, thes lines will continue to blur.

The only things the boats from the major British companies (VCP, NDK, P&H) really
have in common is that they are designed for rough water and built like tanks.
Although Americans seem to be obsessed with light weight, Brits want boats that are
rugged and have lots of gelcoat that can be sacrificed to their rocky coastlines.

Generically speaking most people tend to refer to kayaks with fine ends, over
hanging ends or upswept ends as a Greenland design. As for what exactly
constitutes a true Greenland or Alaskan design is something that I don't think
even the purists can agree on.

There is a pretty broad spectrum of boats that fall under the heading of Greenland
kayaks, but there are a few things that most share, hard chines, upswept ends with
substantial overhangs, low flat decks that require paddling with straight legs and
skin-on-frame construction. For the most part, they fit the paddler very closely,
with East Greenland boats being one major exception. North American boats vary even
more and run the gamut from short, wide, flat bottom and high volume (under 15' and
up to 30" wide) to extremely long, narrow, rounded hull designs. For example,
Copper Inuit boats were often 22'+ long, ~15" beam with rounded bottoms, quite
similar to modern racing boats.

Why the group to which you refer is primarily (or exclusively) using
"Greenland" design boats without rudders is anybody's guess. In fact, if you
asked each member of the group that very question you would be likely to get a
different answer out of each one of them. I have paddled many of the same areas
portrayed on Jon Walpole's site in more Alaskan type boats - Pacific Water
Sports Seal and Mariner's Coaster, simply because that's what was available. I
had a great time!

I don't know his group, but what I've seen locally is that as paddlers progress in
the skill level and begin seeking out bigger water and more challenging conditions,
they naturally tend to gravitate toward boats that are proven performers in such
environments. British boats may not necessarily be the best, but they have the
reputation for being good rough water boats.

I will go out on a limb here (no surprise there :-) and say that the
majority of boats available recreationally today seem lean heavily towards the
Greenland influence.

Most people would probably think of a Greenland-esque shape when you mention the
word "kayak".

I believe this is more a result of marketing then anything else.

Quite possibly.

That stodgy bunch of die hard traditionalists in the United Kingdom from
which we get the BCU has always favored this type of boat. I have heard it
suggested that this is the result of their closer proximity to Greenland, then
to Alaska, more then any other particular reason. Whether or not this is true I
cannot say with any certainly.

Again, there's not that much Greenland influence in most British boats. Upturned
ends do not make a boat "Greenlandic".

While beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I think most people will agree
that Greenland style boats look sexier then their Alaskan cousins.

I agree, though there are some really striking baidarka designs, too.

I also feel that the finer ends allow for a bit smoother ride.

In some cases, yes, but baidarkas were designed to be somewhat flexible, which
allows them to follow wave contours to some degree. One thing that you do get with
true Greenland designs is a very wet ride, but I thinks it's a fair trade off for
the performance advantages. Contrary to the preaching of Derek Hutchinson, kayaking
is a WET sport, especially for people who prefer low volume, true Greenland style
boats and the paddling techniques that go with them.

I have to believe that more
people choose kayaks (and cars for that matter) based more on appearance then
performance. There's nothing wrong with that!

Sure.

Some other reasons a person might
chose a particular boat would include the price, the color (don't laugh, it's
true), their buddy uses one and likes it, their instructor uses one, some high
profile paddler endorses it, it's easier to do bracing and rolling in for
people who do not have a strong brace or roll, and every once in a long while
because of performance in the type of paddling one intends to actually do in
that boat.

Good assessment. For an intitial kayak purchase, most people don't have much to go
on. That's why one's first boat is rarely one's last.

Very few of us are ever actually going to paddle from California to Hawaii,
or circumnavigate New Zealand. So choosing a boat for that purpose is really
kinda pretentious and silly. You should try a number of different boats and try
to choose one that you like - for whatever reasons happen to be important to
you - and enjoy!

It seems to me that the overwhelming majority of paddlers tend to choose boats that
are much too big for them. Considering that most of us are essentially "day
paddlers", the extra volume is nothing but a liability. A common tendency is for
people to gravitate toward lower volume boats as they become more experienced and
skilled.

--
Regards

Brian

There is a pretty broad spectrum of boats that fall under the heading of
Greenland
kayaks, but there are a few things that most share, hard chines, upswept ends
with substantial overhangs, low flat decks that require paddling with straight
legs and
skin-on-frame construction. For the most part, they fit the paddler very
closely,
with East Greenland boats being one major exception. North American boats vary
even
more

Again, there's not that much Greenland influence in most British
boats.Upturned
ends do not make a boat "Greenlandic".


Simply for the sake of discussion I thought it might be fun to explore this
a bit further. I have never seen any actual definitions as to what exactly
makes one boat a Greenland style and what makes another an Alaskan style. So
for most of us I think when we talk about such design traits we are speaking in
fairly broad generalizations.
As far as the generalizations go, Greenland boats tend to have finer ends,
upswept ends, substantial overhangs, lower decks resulting in lower volume
boats, hard chines with "V" bottoms and tiny little cockpits. The Alaskan, or
North American designs lean towards plumb more blunt ends, higher decks
resulting in higher volume boats, multi chine more rounded hulls and larger
roomier cockpits.
As I stated earlier, these are fairly gross generalizations which leave much
room for nit picking. What actually makes a boat lean more towards a Greenland
style or a North American one can be a matter of subjective degree. Technically
speaking it would not be incorrect to call a baidarka built by a paddling
enthusiast who lives in Greenland a "Greenland" boat. However, when we refer to
such boats we are generally speaking of the influence of their design rather
then where they were actually constructed.
I personally consider most British boats to have a Greenland influence to
them. British boats generally have the fine upturned ends, lower volume, "V"ed
hull and tiny cockpits which typify the Greenland design. However, like Brian
said, as time goes by the lines have a tendency to become increasingly blurred.
Frankly, while I think such discussions are fun and interesting, I don't
really believe that being able to categorize modern recreational kayaks is all
that important. Attempting to understand the various design elements involved,
on the other hand, can be very useful to today's paddling enthusiasts.

Scott
So.Cal.

All in all the distinctions seem pretty silly. I know us westerners like our
neat little classifications and all, but I think what is really important
when evaluating the merits of a boat is how it handles for YOU in the
situations YOU are most likely to paddle in. If I'm not mistaken aren't most
true greenland, and aleut, kayaks built specifically for the paddler using
their dimensions as a starting point? I bet the fact that some Greenlanders
used skegs and some didn't comes down to the same reason some people like
skegs and some people like rudders--they make the paddler feel better in
their boat.
I paddle a boat, Seaward Eandevor that is advertised as being "a Greenland
style" boat, but I cannot for the life of me see how it is similar to any of
the traditional skin on frame boats I've ever seen--except maybe that it is
an oblong single person water-craft that is propelled with a double blade.
In fact, aside from the Greanlander and the Anas Acuda, most of the Brit
boats look about as Greenlandic as mine does. Hmm...

Eric Johnson wrote:

All in all the distinctions seem pretty silly.

Agreed. Most of the terms don't mean much anymore.

I know us westerners like our
neat little classifications and all, but I think what is really important
when evaluating the merits of a boat is how it handles for YOU in the
situations YOU are most likely to paddle in.

Absolutely.

If I'm not mistaken aren't most
true greenland, and aleut, kayaks built specifically for the paddler using
their dimensions as a starting point?

Yup.

I bet the fact that some Greenlanders
used skegs and some didn't comes down to the same reason some people like
skegs and some people like rudders--they make the paddler feel better in
their boat.

Perhaps in some cases, but it was generally done to make the boats stronger
tracking for hunting. They wanted boats that would hold a straight course while
gliding, so they could throw a harpoon/spear or shoot a rifle. It's my
understanding that the use of skegs increased when the Inuit started hunting
with rifles.

I paddle a boat, Seaward Eandevor that is advertised as being "a Greenland
style" boat, but I cannot for the life of me see how it is similar to any of
the traditional skin on frame boats I've ever seen--except maybe that it is
an oblong single person water-craft that is propelled with a double blade.
In fact, aside from the Greanlander and the Anas Acuda, most of the Brit
boats look about as Greenlandic as mine does. Hmm...

Agreed.

--
Regards

Brian