On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 22:42:41 -0800, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"Cliff" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 04:06:58 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Nov 13, 6:07 am, Cliff wrote:
Another three trillion down the drain.
Does the phrase "Miserable Failure" ring a bell?

OTOH AIG had another nice party and someone
is getting a lot of taxpayer money .... well, debt to
the taxpayer, anyway. THEY got the money.

No accountability either AFAIK. Just
free money ... How did this get started
again?
--
Cliff

The dems are pilfering the money. Nothing new there.

They are not running things yet.
Bushco is.
So you lied. Again.

HTH
--
Cliff

You are definately confused as to how the Federal Government runs. The
Congress is the only group who can pass a spending bill, the only ones who
can say we spend this money. The Executive Branch can approve or veto the
bill with their Check and Balance part of government. But it is only
Congress who can first say lets spend money and tell the rest of government
to spend money and how much they can spend. And the Democrats have been in
control of the checkbook for nearly 2 years. Bush and the Republicans sux.
But so does the Democrats and Pelosi, expecially Pelosi, and Reid.

-------------
From a theoretical standpoint you are correct, and I wish that
this was the way it worked in the real world.

In several cases, for example the Federal Reserve Bank, the
Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, and the Pension Benefit
Guarantee Corporation and several others, *PRIVATE*
organizations, ==backed with the full faith and credit of the US
[i.e. the taxpayers],== are burning through money at a truly
amazing rate, with nomimal to no oversight.

In one instance the FRB is refusing to say which banks [and most
major American financial organizations are now banks or are
becoming "banks" such as American Express, GE Capital, Merrill
Lynch, Goldman, and CIT] have borrowed, how much they have
borrowed, and ==what securities or other collateral they have
pledged.== {can you say "toxic securities?" Can your say
"pig-in-a-polk"}

The insurance companies are not far behind. Several majors have
just applied to become S&Ls, thus qualifying for the FDIC "tit".
----------
Insurers Mull S&L Status; Request Could Come Today (Update1)

By Andrew Frye

Nov. 14 (Bloomberg) -- Several U.S. insurers have asked
regulators about applying for status as savings and loan
institutions, a step that could give them access to Treasury
funding.
snip
-----------
for complete article see
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...BaY&refer=home

In less than 3 months, over 5 trillion dollars has been
"injected" into the market. The exact amount cannot be
determined.
for complete article click on
http://www.forbes.com/home/2008/11/1...12bailout.html


To put this in perspective the total annual production of all
goods and services in the United States [GDP] is estimated at
slightly more than 13 trillion dollars. 5/13 = 38% of GDP IN
SLIGHTLY OVER TWO MONTHS WITH NO END IN SIGHT, AND NO
ACCOUNTABILITY.

There are several other mechanisms that bypass Congressional
control and oversight of governmental spending, but currently
this is the major money leak.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 22:42:41 -0800, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

snipped
You are definately confused as to how the Federal Government runs. The
Congress is the only group who can pass a spending bill, the only ones who
can say we spend this money. The Executive Branch can approve or veto the
bill with their Check and Balance part of government. But it is only
Congress who can first say lets spend money and tell the rest of government
to spend money and how much they can spend. And the Democrats have been in
control of the checkbook for nearly 2 years. Bush and the Republicans sux.
But so does the Democrats and Pelosi, expecially Pelosi, and Reid.

-------------
From a theoretical standpoint you are correct, and I wish that
this was the way it worked in the real world.


It's not theory, it's the law.


In several cases, for example the Federal Reserve Bank, the
Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, and the Pension Benefit
Guarantee Corporation and several others, *PRIVATE*
organizations, ==backed with the full faith and credit of the US
[i.e. the taxpayers],== are burning through money at a truly
amazing rate, with nomimal to no oversight.

In one instance the FRB is refusing to say which banks [and most
major American financial organizations are now banks or are
becoming "banks" such as American Express, GE Capital, Merrill
Lynch, Goldman, and CIT] have borrowed, how much they have
borrowed, and ==what securities or other collateral they have
pledged.== {can you say "toxic securities?" Can your say
"pig-in-a-polk"}

The insurance companies are not far behind. Several majors have
just applied to become S&Ls, thus qualifying for the FDIC "tit".


We have a Congress which has abdicated it's obligations and
responsibilities.

We have an illegitimate government.


----------
Insurers Mull S&L Status; Request Could Come Today (Update1)

By Andrew Frye

Nov. 14 (Bloomberg) -- Several U.S. insurers have asked
regulators about applying for status as savings and loan
institutions, a step that could give them access to Treasury
funding.
snip
-----------
for complete article see
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...BaY&refer=home

In less than 3 months, over 5 trillion dollars has been
"injected" into the market. The exact amount cannot be
determined.
for complete article click on
http://www.forbes.com/home/2008/11/1...12bailout.html


To put this in perspective the total annual production of all
goods and services in the United States [GDP] is estimated at
slightly more than 13 trillion dollars. 5/13 = 38% of GDP IN
SLIGHTLY OVER TWO MONTHS WITH NO END IN SIGHT, AND NO
ACCOUNTABILITY.

There are several other mechanisms that bypass Congressional
control and oversight of governmental spending, but currently
this is the major money leak.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).


----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

"strabo" wrote in message
...
F. George McDuffee wrote:
On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 22:42:41 -0800, "Calif Bill"
wrote:

snipped
You are definately confused as to how the Federal Government runs. The
Congress is the only group who can pass a spending bill, the only ones
who can say we spend this money. The Executive Branch can approve or
veto the bill with their Check and Balance part of government. But it
is only Congress who can first say lets spend money and tell the rest of
government to spend money and how much they can spend. And the
Democrats have been in control of the checkbook for nearly 2 years.
Bush and the Republicans sux. But so does the Democrats and Pelosi,
expecially Pelosi, and Reid.
-------------
From a theoretical standpoint you are correct, and I wish that
this was the way it worked in the real world.


It's not theory, it's the law.

So, reconcile that with the actual federal budget process, and all of the
"supplemental" funding bills for the war in Iraq.

Tell us who initiates them.

--
Ed Huntress

distro pruned to alt.machines.cnc, rec.crafts.metalworking

On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 16:41:39 -0500, strabo
wrote:

We have a Congress which has abdicated it's obligations and
responsibilities.
Indeed, we do.

We have an illegitimate government.
Its the only one we got, and the only one we are likely to get.
---------------------
Item two follows from item one.

Congress represents the people, and what the people want is a
"reinflation" of the real estate, stock/bond and credit bubbles,
[people in hell want ice water too] not a systematic evaluation
of the current solution, investigation of how we got here,
determination of the people/institutions accountable, and
long-term solutions to make sure we don't have this occur in
another generation or two.

The original post observed that the palliative measures to
overcome the fiscal crisis taken to date have largely proven
ineffective. This appears to be correct, but the amount
indicated was low by about a factor of 2 [or more]. This also
appears to posit that it was "all W's fault," when in fact this
took at least a generation to fully develop.

In their favor, the Federal Reserve Chairman and the SecTres do
appear to have read some history and are not repeating the
actions that brought the country to its knees in 1929, such as
restricting credit/raising interest rates, import/trade
restrictions, and attempting to "liquidate" the excesses of the
market, such as the housing inventory, at fire sale prices.

Unfortunately, they [and Congress] appear to be unable [or
unwilling] to recognize that this is *NOT* in general a liquidity
or credit problem, but rather a solvency problem, in that huge
sectors of the domestic economy [e.g. automotive] are "flat
broke," as is a large fraction of the population, with the result
that one of the major SYPMTOMS is lack of liquidity/credit.
Indeed, many of our major corporations and unfortunate citizens
are *WORSE* than "flat broke," because they have accumulated debt
of all types far beyond their ability to ever repay. THUS NO
MATTER HOW MUCH MONEY IS INJECTED INTO THE ECONOMY, IT CANNOT
CURE THE PROBLEM, OR EVEN MAKE MUCH OF AN [IF ANY] IMPACT ON THE
SYMPTOM.

This very serious problem is further compounded by the fact than
many of the most accountable organizations are bankrupt in many
more ways than just fiscal, specifically they are bankrupt
ethically, they are bankrupt innovatively, and they are bankrupt
intellectually.

Everyone and everything but their own actions and decisions are
blamed for the fiscal problems, from the new FASB "mark to
market" accounting rules, to the union contracts they were
"forced to sign" back in 1965. Still *THEIR* good times roll on,
with lavish corporate "retreats," private jets, "performance
bonuses," and "golden parachutes," even as their employees and
stockholders take it in the shorts.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 14:41:18 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:
snip
To put this in perspective the total annual production of all
goods and services in the United States [GDP] is estimated at
slightly more than 13 trillion dollars. 5/13 = 38% of GDP IN
SLIGHTLY OVER TWO MONTHS WITH NO END IN SIGHT, AND NO
ACCOUNTABILITY.
snip
-----------
Not directly part of the US problem, but the Brits are more
efficient in these matters, and have managed to produce some
preliminary data....

Just the *EUROPEAN* operations of Lehman Bros. has more than 1
TRILLION$US to account for, with 500 Billion$US in debt.

N.B.: Lehman Bros. is only one small part of the total global
fiscal problem. Not only is there not enough money in the entire
world to settle up, there are not enough lawyers and accountants
to process the claims....

----------
Lehman administrators' task will dwarf Enron, creditors told
• European arm has more than $500bn of debt
• Collapsed bank's creditors expect less than 10%

* Simon Bowers
* guardian.co.uk, Saturday November 15 2008 00.01 GMT
* The Guardian, Saturday November 15 2008

Administrators grappling with the European arm of the failed
investment bank Lehman Brothers have told creditors their task is
"10 times as big and as complicated" as the unwinding of Enron.

Speaking after the first creditors' meeting, a team from
PricewaterhouseCoopers said they had identified more than ==$1tn
(£670bn) in assets and liabilities that need to be accounted
for.== {emphasis added}
snip
---------------
for complete article click on
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...ers-us-economy

Where were the responsible adults while all this was happening,
and where did all that money go?


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 14:41:18 -0600, F.George wrote:

In less than 3 months, over 5 trillion dollars has been "injected" into
the market. The exact amount cannot be determined.

This is only the amount the US has committed to so far. Europe, Russia,
Germany, Japan and China just about sum that much by themselves.

--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RIP -- Robert Lee Burnside 11/23/26 - 9/1/05
------------------------------------------------------------------------------




.................................................. ...............
Posted via TITANnews - Uncensored Newsgroups Access
at http://www.TitanNews.com
-=Every Newsgroup - Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 21:51:00 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon
wrote:

On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 14:41:18 -0600, F.George wrote:

In less than 3 months, over 5 trillion dollars has been "injected" into
the market. The exact amount cannot be determined.

This is only the amount the US has committed to so far. Europe, Russia,
Germany, Japan and China just about sum that much by themselves.
--------------
Indeed, which again indicates this is not a *LIQUIDITY* problem,
as it would have been solved [several times over] by now if this
was the case.

I again ask: "where did/does all this money go" and "where did
all the money go [and come from] that was involved in the oil,
metal and commodities (food) bubbles?"

There is something far more rotten and systemic that a simple
cash flow problem at work here.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 08:17:42 -0600, F.George wrote:

On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 21:51:00 -0800, Curly Surmudgeon
wrote:

On Fri, 14 Nov 2008 14:41:18 -0600, F.George wrote:

In less than 3 months, over 5 trillion dollars has been "injected"
into the market. The exact amount cannot be determined.

This is only the amount the US has committed to so far. Europe, Russia,
Germany, Japan and China just about sum that much by themselves.
--------------
Indeed, which again indicates this is not a *LIQUIDITY* problem, as it
would have been solved [several times over] by now if this was the case.

I again ask: "where did/does all this money go"

That's a secret:

Bloomberg Sues Fed to Force Disclosure of Collateral (Update1)

By Mark Pittman

Nov. 7 (Bloomberg) -- Bloomberg News asked a U.S. court today to force the
Federal Reserve to disclose securities the central bank is accepting on
behalf of American taxpayers as collateral for $1.5 trillion of loans to
banks.

The lawsuit is based on the U.S. Freedom of Information Act, which
requires federal agencies to make government documents available to the
press and the public, according to the complaint. The suit, filed in New
York, doesn't seek money damages.

``The American taxpayer is entitled to know the risks, costs and
methodology associated with the unprecedented government bailout of the
U.S. financial industry,'' said Matthew Winkler, the editor-in-chief of
Bloomberg News, a unit of New York-based Bloomberg LP, in an e-mail.

The Fed has lent $1.5 trillion to banks, including Citigroup Inc. and
Goldman Sachs Group Inc., through programs such as its discount window,
the Primary Dealer Credit Facility and the Term Securities Lending
Facility. Collateral is an asset pledged to a lender in the event that a
loan payment isn't made.

The Fed made the loans under 11 programs in response to the biggest
financial crisis since the Great Depression. The total doesn't include an
additional $700 billion approved by Congress in a bailout package.

Fed's Position

Bloomberg News on May 21 asked the Fed to provide data on the collateral
posted between April 4 and May 20. The central bank said on June 19 that
it needed until July 3 to search out the documents and determine whether
it would make them public. Bloomberg never received a formal response that
would enable it to file an appeal. On Oct. 25, Bloomberg filed another
request and has yet to receive a reply.

The Fed staff planned to recommend that Bloomberg's request be denied
under an exemption protecting ``confidential commercial information,''
according to Alison Thro, the Fed's FOIA Service Center senior counsel.
The Fed in Washington has about 30 pages pertaining to the request, Thro
said today before the filing of the suit. The bulk of the documents
Bloomberg sought are at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, which she
said isn't subject to the freedom of information law.

``This type of information is considered highly sensitive, and it would
remain so for some time in the future,'' Thro said.

The Fed didn't give Bloomberg a formal response because ``it got caught in
the vortex of the things going on here,'' said Michael O'Rourke, another
member of the Fed's FOIA staff.

Thro declined to comment on the lawsuit.

The case is Bloomberg LP v. Federal Reserve, U.S. District Court, Southern
District of New York (Manhattan).

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=ajph7rjBl1ow

and "where did all the
money go [and come from] that was involved in the oil, metal and
commodities (food) bubbles?"

There is something far more rotten and systemic that a simple cash flow
problem at work here.

Agreed, and it's unlikely we'll know in time to take any action. That's
been the pattern of Bush/Cheney all along, to commit crimes and atrocities
faster than regulators, patriots, or regulators can react moving on to
fresh atrocities keeping opposition floundering with yesterday's crimes.

Unka' George [George McDuffee]
------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new
remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things
to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

--
Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RIP -- Robert Lee Burnside 11/23/26 - 9/1/05
------------------------------------------------------------------------------




.................................................. ...............
Posted via TITANnews - Uncensored Newsgroups Access
at http://www.TitanNews.com
-=Every Newsgroup - Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-