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Watching boats in chop
Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting
on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. The tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good chop in the channel. It was a great venue for watching how boats are handled in chop. About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. About 1/4 were going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. What did amaze me was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. These boats had transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business in such chop. My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no other basis for comparison. What degree of pounding is acceptable? |
Watching boats in chop
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Watching boats in chop
On Aug 17, 1:29*pm, wrote:
Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. *The tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good chop in the channel. *It was a great venue for watching how boats are handled in chop. About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. *About 1/4 were going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. *What did amaze me was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. *These boats had transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business in such chop. My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no other basis for comparison. *What degree of pounding is acceptable? According to at least one person here, getting swamped from following seas because of a low transom is the way it should be. |
Watching boats in chop
On Aug 17, 1:35 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 1:29 pm, wrote: Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. The tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good chop in the channel. It was a great venue for watching how boats are handled in chop. About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. About 1/4 were going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. What did amaze me was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. These boats had transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business in such chop. My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no other basis for comparison. What degree of pounding is acceptable? According to at least one person here, getting swamped from following seas because of a low transom is the way it should be. I suspect HK thinks I am trying to weigh in on some controversy over cut-away transoms but I never kept track of who was in who in that one. I suspect the Tolman is stronger than most Fiberglas boats and I have never heard of this happening so his answer is useless. Any other answers on how much pounding is too much? |
Watching boats in chop
On Aug 17, 1:39*pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 1:35 pm, wrote: On Aug 17, 1:29 pm, wrote: Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. *The tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good chop in the channel. *It was a great venue for watching how boats are handled in chop. About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. *About 1/4 were going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. *What did amaze me was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. *These boats had transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business in such chop. My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no other basis for comparison. *What degree of pounding is acceptable? According to at least one person here, getting swamped from following seas because of a low transom is the way it should be. I suspect HK thinks I am trying to weigh in on some controversy over cut-away transoms but I never kept track of who was in who in that one. I suspect the Tolman is stronger than most Fiberglas boats and I have never heard of this happening so his answer is useless. *Any other answers on how much pounding is too much?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I would say that either when the physical toll was too much, or you were bouncing so hard you would lose control... |
Watching boats in chop
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Watching boats in chop
On Aug 17, 1:45 pm, hk wrote:
wrote: On Aug 17, 1:35 pm, wrote: On Aug 17, 1:29 pm, wrote: Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. The tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good chop in the channel. It was a great venue for watching how boats are handled in chop. About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. About 1/4 were going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. What did amaze me was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. These boats had transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business in such chop. My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no other basis for comparison. What degree of pounding is acceptable? According to at least one person here, getting swamped from following seas because of a low transom is the way it should be. I suspect HK thinks I am trying to weigh in on some controversy over cut-away transoms but I never kept track of who was in who in that one. I suspect the Tolman is stronger than most Fiberglas boats and I have never heard of this happening so his answer is useless. Any other answers on how much pounding is too much? My answer is correct: it depends upon the strength of the boat and the fortitude of its occupants. Beyond that, it is a meaningless question. BTW, if your Tolman is a homebuilt wood boat, it unlikely is "stronger" than most properly built fiberglass boats of the same size. I could tell you why, and in some detail, but...what's the point, eh? I believe my Tolman is "Stronger" than a comparable FG boat because FG is prone to fatigue failure whereas the Tolman is a composite of wood and FG. In places where FG might fail due to fatigue there is a redundancy of wood that does not fatigue fail. Any one of the joints between the wood on the Tolman is structuraly stronger than the corresponding place on a FG boat because the joint is very well reinforced with Biax FG overlaid with two layers of heavy glass. Yes, you COULD do this on a pure FG boat but how many do? Even then, you could overbuild a Tolman to be stronger than any pure FG boat simply by increasing the layers of biax. |
Watching boats in chop
On Aug 17, 12:29*pm, wrote:
Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. *The tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good chop in the channel. *It was a great venue for watching how boats are handled in chop. About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. *About 1/4 were going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. *What did amaze me was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. *These boats had transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business in such chop. My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no other basis for comparison. *What degree of pounding is acceptable? I really dont' know how to answer that, but I was out in stuff like this with an 18 ft. runabout powered by a merc 140. I didn't think it was acceptable at all. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXh-9TzY-No |
Watching boats in chop
On Aug 17, 1:45*pm, hk wrote:
wrote: On Aug 17, 1:35 pm, wrote: On Aug 17, 1:29 pm, wrote: Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. *The tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good chop in the channel. *It was a great venue for watching how boats are handled in chop. About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. *About 1/4 were going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. *What did amaze me was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. *These boats had transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business in such chop. My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no other basis for comparison. *What degree of pounding is acceptable? According to at least one person here, getting swamped from following seas because of a low transom is the way it should be. I suspect HK thinks I am trying to weigh in on some controversy over cut-away transoms but I never kept track of who was in who in that one. I suspect the Tolman is stronger than most Fiberglas boats and I have never heard of this happening so his answer is useless. *Any other answers on how much pounding is too much? My answer is correct: it depends upon the strength of the boat and the fortitude of its occupants. Beyond that, it is a meaningless question. BTW, if your Tolman is a homebuilt wood boat, it unlikely is "stronger" than most properly built fiberglass boats of the same size. I could tell you why, and in some detail, but...what's the point, eh?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Sure, go ahead Harry. Have you ever seen his boat up close? What do you know of it's construction? |
Watching boats in chop
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Watching boats in chop
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Watching boats in chop
Tim wrote:
On Aug 17, 12:29 pm, wrote: Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. The tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good chop in the channel. It was a great venue for watching how boats are handled in chop. About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. About 1/4 were going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. What did amaze me was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. These boats had transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business in such chop. My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no other basis for comparison. What degree of pounding is acceptable? I really dont' know how to answer that, but I was out in stuff like this with an 18 ft. runabout powered by a merc 140. I didn't think it was acceptable at all. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXh-9TzY-No A relatively calm day at Matanzas Inlet, where I loved to fish... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YwBNdzQVxw There's a highway bridge at the mouth of the inlet. Most smart people ran out under the bridge into the ocean. Being a contrarian, I came to the inlet the other way, out St. Augustine inlet, and down along the shore to Matanzas. |
Watching boats in chop
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Watching boats in chop
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 13:45:03 -0400, hk wrote:
one. I suspect the Tolman is stronger than most Fiberglas boats and I have never heard of this happening so his answer is useless. Any other answers on how much pounding is too much? My answer is correct: it depends upon the strength of the boat and the fortitude of its occupants. Beyond that, it is a meaningless question. BTW, if your Tolman is a homebuilt wood boat, it unlikely is "stronger" than most properly built fiberglass boats of the same size. I could tell you why, and in some detail, but...what's the point, eh? Bull.. A properly engineered boat, built by a competent home builder is evey bit as much of a tool as your mass produced hourly wage built FG.. Especially a Toleman. But I won't argue with you about it, you are the king... |
Watching boats in chop
This is ridiculous.. the hybrids we make no adays are every bit as
strong as wood stringer, poly boats.. You can't compare what your dad sold in his shop made of polyester resin, and the epoxy, mahogany, glass and bi axle made now. It's in the engineering, you can spew all you want, but you are wrong... The Toleman's in particular are some beefy boats that go where your Parker never will. I won't let you pull me into this one, you need to do your homework then come back and we will talk.. On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 14:17:04 -0400, hk wrote: wrote: On Aug 17, 1:45 pm, hk wrote: wrote: On Aug 17, 1:35 pm, wrote: On Aug 17, 1:29 pm, wrote: Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. The tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good chop in the channel. It was a great venue for watching how boats are handled in chop. About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. About 1/4 were going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. What did amaze me was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. These boats had transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business in such chop. My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no other basis for comparison. What degree of pounding is acceptable? According to at least one person here, getting swamped from following seas because of a low transom is the way it should be. I suspect HK thinks I am trying to weigh in on some controversy over cut-away transoms but I never kept track of who was in who in that one. I suspect the Tolman is stronger than most Fiberglas boats and I have never heard of this happening so his answer is useless. Any other answers on how much pounding is too much? My answer is correct: it depends upon the strength of the boat and the fortitude of its occupants. Beyond that, it is a meaningless question. BTW, if your Tolman is a homebuilt wood boat, it unlikely is "stronger" than most properly built fiberglass boats of the same size. I could tell you why, and in some detail, but...what's the point, eh? I believe my Tolman is "Stronger" than a comparable FG boat because FG is prone to fatigue failure whereas the Tolman is a composite of wood and FG. In places where FG might fail due to fatigue there is a redundancy of wood that does not fatigue fail. Any one of the joints between the wood on the Tolman is structuraly stronger than the corresponding place on a FG boat because the joint is very well reinforced with Biax FG overlaid with two layers of heavy glass. Yes, you COULD do this on a pure FG boat but how many do? Even then, you could overbuild a Tolman to be stronger than any pure FG boat simply by increasing the layers of biax. Unless they are holed, fiberglass hulls molded in one piece typically do not "fail." A point of failure for cheaply or improperly built fiberglass boats is the hull/deck joint, but that is the joint, not the hull. Since, apparently, you have not rammed your boat through a really choppy inlet at high speed, your "knowledge" of how it would handle that stuff is strictly theoretical. I have run small fiberglass boats through stuff that I know damned well would bust up a wood boat, even a fiberglass-sheathed wood boat. I know, because in my youth, I managed to "loosen" up a few wood and 'glass-sheathed boats until my old man read me the riot act. Run your boat real hard through some really choppy inlets and get back to us. :) |
Watching boats in chop
On Aug 17, 2:25*pm, hk wrote:
Vic Smith wrote: On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT), wrote: Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. *The tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good chop in the channel. *It was a great venue for watching how boats are handled in chop. About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. *About 1/4 were going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. *What did amaze me was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. *These boats had transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business in such chop. My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no other basis for comparison. *What degree of pounding is acceptable? You still thinking about doing a Bahamas trip with the Tolman? From your previous posts, I'm guessing the Tolman has been only in the river. *Are you thinking about taking it to some chop to get a feel on its handling? I've given some thought to how I would test what is "safe water" if I get a Carolina Skiff, especially since my boat handing experience is limited. *I've got a feeling that it will happen naturally, since I really don't want to go looking for trouble. *More that I don't want a 10 grand motor dunked in salt water than anything else. But if you've been motoring the Tolman only in calm waters and plan to take it to the Bahamas, maybe a little "testing" is in order. --Vic Indeed, he ought to get some experience on the mighty waters of Lake Lanier.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - See, when you make a comment like "even a sheathed boat..." it let's us know you don't understand wood/glass composite. In that type of construction for one, the glass is to protect the wood, not necessarily to provide more structural integerity. That is provided by the laminates (plywood) and the framing used to secure it, bent panels, etc.. not the sheathing. In onother words, when it comes to this type of construction, you are out of your league... |
Watching boats in chop
RMR wrote:
This is ridiculous.. the hybrids we make no adays are every bit as strong as wood stringer, poly boats.. You can't compare what your dad sold in his shop made of polyester resin, and the epoxy, mahogany, glass and bi axle made now. It's in the engineering, you can spew all you want, but you are wrong... The Toleman's in particular are some beefy boats that go where your Parker never will. I won't let you pull me into this one, you need to do your homework then come back and we will talk.. Consider you probably have never even been close to a Parker, or climbed aboard one and looked around, I find your comment laughable. I've seen some stitch-and-glue dories around here, even a couple of 16-footers. I wasn't impressed. What's the biggest stitch-and-glue heavy duty boat you've built that regularly plies the ocean? |
Watching boats in chop
On Aug 17, 2:25 pm, hk wrote:
Vic Smith wrote: On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT), wrote: Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. The tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good chop in the channel. It was a great venue for watching how boats are handled in chop. About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. About 1/4 were going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. What did amaze me was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. These boats had transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business in such chop. My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no other basis for comparison. What degree of pounding is acceptable? You still thinking about doing a Bahamas trip with the Tolman? From your previous posts, I'm guessing the Tolman has been only in the river. Are you thinking about taking it to some chop to get a feel on its handling? I've given some thought to how I would test what is "safe water" if I get a Carolina Skiff, especially since my boat handing experience is limited. I've got a feeling that it will happen naturally, since I really don't want to go looking for trouble. More that I don't want a 10 grand motor dunked in salt water than anything else. But if you've been motoring the Tolman only in calm waters and plan to take it to the Bahamas, maybe a little "testing" is in order. --Vic Indeed, he ought to get some experience on the mighty waters of Lake Lanier. Probably 90% of my use of the boat has been in the open Gulf and I have had her out in heavy chop which is what has led to this discussion. I simply have no basis for comparison. This past weekend, i had to slow down to about 12 kts to avoid pounding in 2' chop (my neighbor said 3' but I dont think so). Is that reasonable? I have been out in heavy chop trying to get out of The St. marks river when wind and tide opposed each other, it was nasty. Harry discusses FG sheatehed wood boats of years ago but those are a differetn animal than modern epoxy/glass/marine ply construction and cannot be compared. On those old boats, the resin really did not form a structural bond with the wood like Epoxy does. You could probably peel the FG offa the wood. A modern composite epoxy/glass/wood boat enables the whole thing to be a one piece structure. I HAVE seen FG boats that have suffered structural failure from a lot of use. They did not sink but were in the yard for repairs or where for sale to any sucker. What I have seen is failure of bulkhead to hull joints. This is because the bulkheads are made separately and allowed to cure. After they cure, they are tabbed together with glass and poly resin. Poly does not really stick too well to poly but with enough surface area you are ok. I have looked at these old boats and have been able to rip the bulkhead from the hull by hand. OTOH, epoxy DOES stick to cured epoxy but I know of no production boat builder that uses epoxy as their primary resin. Even better, on the Tolman, the designer specifies that one leave the wood near joints unsoaked with epoxy until one is ready to form the joint. Then, you soak the wood with epoxy and cover it with biax and then more glass so the wood/ epoxy/biax/glass cloth forms a single piece. I suspect that what led to the failures I saw in the yards while I was working on my sailboat was oilcanning of the hull so that this joint cracked due to fatigue over time. My Tolman does not seem to oilcan to any perceptible degree. The major problem with her is that she is simply very light so has little momentum to bash through a wave as my sailbaot does. The Tolman also has very small deadrise in comparison to the very few powerboats I have been on. |
Watching boats in chop
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Watching boats in chop
On Aug 17, 2:43*pm, hk wrote:
RMR wrote: This is ridiculous.. the hybrids we make no adays are every bit as strong as wood stringer, poly boats.. You can't compare what your dad sold in his shop made of polyester resin, and the epoxy, mahogany, glass and bi axle made now. It's in the engineering, you can spew all you want, but you are wrong... The Toleman's in particular are some beefy boats that go where your Parker never will. I won't let you pull me into this one, you need to do your homework then come back and we will talk.. * Consider you probably have never even been close to a Parker, or climbed aboard one and looked around, I find your comment laughable. I've seen some stitch-and-glue dories around here, even a couple of 16-footers. I wasn't impressed. What's the biggest stitch-and-glue heavy duty boat you've built that regularly plies the ocean? Toleman's are not sitch and glue.. you don't know what you don't know... |
Watching boats in chop
On Aug 17, 2:47*pm, hk wrote:
wrote: On Aug 17, 2:25 pm, hk wrote: Vic Smith wrote: On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT), wrote: Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. *The tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good chop in the channel. *It was a great venue for watching how boats are handled in chop. About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. *About 1/4 were going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. *What did amaze me was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. *These boats had transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business in such chop. My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no other basis for comparison. *What degree of pounding is acceptable? You still thinking about doing a Bahamas trip with the Tolman? From your previous posts, I'm guessing the Tolman has been only in the river. *Are you thinking about taking it to some chop to get a feel on its handling? I've given some thought to how I would test what is "safe water" if I get a Carolina Skiff, especially since my boat handing experience is limited. *I've got a feeling that it will happen naturally, since I really don't want to go looking for trouble. *More that I don't want a 10 grand motor dunked in salt water than anything else. But if you've been motoring the Tolman only in calm waters and plan to take it to the Bahamas, maybe a little "testing" is in order. --Vic Indeed, he ought to get some experience on the mighty waters of Lake Lanier.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - See, when you make a comment like "even a sheathed boat..." it let's us know you don't understand wood/glass composite. In that type of construction for one, the glass is to protect the wood, not necessarily to provide more structural integerity. That is provided by the laminates (plywood) and the framing used to secure it, bent panels, etc.. not the sheathing. In onother words, when it comes to this type of construction, you are out of your league... Let's see some photos of the larger, heavier duty stitch-and-glue boats you've built that regularly zip through really choppy, windy inlets at, say, 20 knots.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - We again, are not talking stitch and glue, you don't know what you are talking about, I am done with you too... plonk... |
Watching boats in chop
On Aug 17, 2:47 pm, hk wrote:
wrote: On Aug 17, 2:25 pm, hk wrote: Vic Smith wrote: On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT), wrote: Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. The tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good chop in the channel. It was a great venue for watching how boats are handled in chop. About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. About 1/4 were going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. What did amaze me was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. These boats had transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business in such chop. My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no other basis for comparison. What degree of pounding is acceptable? You still thinking about doing a Bahamas trip with the Tolman? From your previous posts, I'm guessing the Tolman has been only in the river. Are you thinking about taking it to some chop to get a feel on its handling? I've given some thought to how I would test what is "safe water" if I get a Carolina Skiff, especially since my boat handing experience is limited. I've got a feeling that it will happen naturally, since I really don't want to go looking for trouble. More that I don't want a 10 grand motor dunked in salt water than anything else. But if you've been motoring the Tolman only in calm waters and plan to take it to the Bahamas, maybe a little "testing" is in order. --Vic Indeed, he ought to get some experience on the mighty waters of Lake Lanier.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - See, when you make a comment like "even a sheathed boat..." it let's us know you don't understand wood/glass composite. In that type of construction for one, the glass is to protect the wood, not necessarily to provide more structural integerity. That is provided by the laminates (plywood) and the framing used to secure it, bent panels, etc.. not the sheathing. In onother words, when it comes to this type of construction, you are out of your league... Let's see some photos of the larger, heavier duty stitch-and-glue boats you've built that regularly zip through really choppy, windy inlets at, say, 20 knots. I cannot discuss Parker boats because I have never seen one up close. However, if HK will look at the history of Tolman's, he will see that they were designed for rough conditions of AK for use as commercial fishing vessels. I doubt they do 20 kts in heavy chop because they were not designed for that. I built mine purely on a whim knowing nothing at all about power boats. My comparisons are therefor entirely theoretical. |
Watching boats in chop
On Aug 17, 2:59 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 2:47 pm, hk wrote: wrote: On Aug 17, 2:25 pm, hk wrote: Vic Smith wrote: On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT), wrote: Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. The tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good chop in the channel. It was a great venue for watching how boats are handled in chop. About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. About 1/4 were going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. What did amaze me was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. These boats had transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business in such chop. My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no other basis for comparison. What degree of pounding is acceptable? You still thinking about doing a Bahamas trip with the Tolman? From your previous posts, I'm guessing the Tolman has been only in the river. Are you thinking about taking it to some chop to get a feel on its handling? I've given some thought to how I would test what is "safe water" if I get a Carolina Skiff, especially since my boat handing experience is limited. I've got a feeling that it will happen naturally, since I really don't want to go looking for trouble. More that I don't want a 10 grand motor dunked in salt water than anything else. But if you've been motoring the Tolman only in calm waters and plan to take it to the Bahamas, maybe a little "testing" is in order. --Vic Indeed, he ought to get some experience on the mighty waters of Lake Lanier.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - See, when you make a comment like "even a sheathed boat..." it let's us know you don't understand wood/glass composite. In that type of construction for one, the glass is to protect the wood, not necessarily to provide more structural integerity. That is provided by the laminates (plywood) and the framing used to secure it, bent panels, etc.. not the sheathing. In onother words, when it comes to this type of construction, you are out of your league... Let's see some photos of the larger, heavier duty stitch-and-glue boats you've built that regularly zip through really choppy, windy inlets at, say, 20 knots. I cannot discuss Parker boats because I have never seen one up close. However, if HK will look at the history of Tolman's, he will see that they were designed for rough conditions of AK for use as commercial fishing vessels. I doubt they do 20 kts in heavy chop because they were not designed for that. I built mine purely on a whim knowing nothing at all about power boats. My comparisons are therefor entirely theoretical. BTW, Tolmans ARE stitch and glue along the midjoint of the hull but nowhere else. |
Watching boats in chop
for the benefit of those who are not seeing half this conv.. A
Toleman is not stitch and glue, I have decided not to carry on this conv... Scotty On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 14:43:52 -0400, hk wrote: RMR wrote: This is ridiculous.. the hybrids we make no adays are every bit as strong as wood stringer, poly boats.. You can't compare what your dad sold in his shop made of polyester resin, and the epoxy, mahogany, glass and bi axle made now. It's in the engineering, you can spew all you want, but you are wrong... The Toleman's in particular are some beefy boats that go where your Parker never will. I won't let you pull me into this one, you need to do your homework then come back and we will talk.. Consider you probably have never even been close to a Parker, or climbed aboard one and looked around, I find your comment laughable. I've seen some stitch-and-glue dories around here, even a couple of 16-footers. I wasn't impressed. What's the biggest stitch-and-glue heavy duty boat you've built that regularly plies the ocean? |
Watching boats in chop
On Aug 17, 3:07*pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 2:59 pm, wrote: On Aug 17, 2:47 pm, hk wrote: wrote: On Aug 17, 2:25 pm, hk wrote: Vic Smith wrote: On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT), wrote: Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties.. *The tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good chop in the channel. *It was a great venue for watching how boats are handled in chop. About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. *About 1/4 were going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. *What did amaze me was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. *These boats had transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business in such chop. My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no other basis for comparison. *What degree of pounding is acceptable? You still thinking about doing a Bahamas trip with the Tolman? From your previous posts, I'm guessing the Tolman has been only in the river. *Are you thinking about taking it to some chop to get a feel on its handling? I've given some thought to how I would test what is "safe water" if I get a Carolina Skiff, especially since my boat handing experience is limited. *I've got a feeling that it will happen naturally, since I really don't want to go looking for trouble. *More that I don't want a 10 grand motor dunked in salt water than anything else. But if you've been motoring the Tolman only in calm waters and plan to take it to the Bahamas, maybe a little "testing" is in order. --Vic Indeed, he ought to get some experience on the mighty waters of Lake Lanier.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - See, when you make a comment like "even a sheathed boat..." it let's us know you don't understand wood/glass composite. In that type of construction for one, the glass is to protect the wood, not necessarily to provide more structural integerity. That is provided by the laminates (plywood) and the framing used to secure it, bent panels, etc.. not the sheathing. In onother words, when it comes to this type of construction, you are out of your league... Let's see some photos of the larger, heavier duty stitch-and-glue boats you've built that regularly zip through really choppy, windy inlets at, say, 20 knots. I cannot discuss Parker boats because I have never seen one up close. However, if HK will look at the history of Tolman's, he will see that they were designed for rough conditions of AK for use as commercial fishing vessels. *I doubt they do 20 kts in heavy chop because they were not designed for that. *I built mine purely on a whim knowing nothing at all about power boats. *My comparisons are therefor entirely theoretical. BTW, Tolmans ARE stitch and glue along the midjoint of the hull but nowhere else.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Technically, skin on frame. Along the keel iirc, the frame longitudal, is of layered glass, just like many FG boats.. Structure is created by angled and bent skin material (laminate)... The engineering and resulting structual integerity is what some don't really understand... |
Watching boats in chop
On Aug 17, 3:26 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 3:07 pm, wrote: On Aug 17, 2:59 pm, wrote: On Aug 17, 2:47 pm, hk wrote: wrote: On Aug 17, 2:25 pm, hk wrote: Vic Smith wrote: On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT), wrote: Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. The tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good chop in the channel. It was a great venue for watching how boats are handled in chop. About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. About 1/4 were going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. What did amaze me was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. These boats had transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business in such chop. My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no other basis for comparison. What degree of pounding is acceptable? You still thinking about doing a Bahamas trip with the Tolman? From your previous posts, I'm guessing the Tolman has been only in the river. Are you thinking about taking it to some chop to get a feel on its handling? I've given some thought to how I would test what is "safe water" if I get a Carolina Skiff, especially since my boat handing experience is limited. I've got a feeling that it will happen naturally, since I really don't want to go looking for trouble. More that I don't want a 10 grand motor dunked in salt water than anything else. But if you've been motoring the Tolman only in calm waters and plan to take it to the Bahamas, maybe a little "testing" is in order. --Vic Indeed, he ought to get some experience on the mighty waters of Lake Lanier.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - See, when you make a comment like "even a sheathed boat..." it let's us know you don't understand wood/glass composite. In that type of construction for one, the glass is to protect the wood, not necessarily to provide more structural integerity. That is provided by the laminates (plywood) and the framing used to secure it, bent panels, etc.. not the sheathing. In onother words, when it comes to this type of construction, you are out of your league... Let's see some photos of the larger, heavier duty stitch-and-glue boats you've built that regularly zip through really choppy, windy inlets at, say, 20 knots. I cannot discuss Parker boats because I have never seen one up close. However, if HK will look at the history of Tolman's, he will see that they were designed for rough conditions of AK for use as commercial fishing vessels. I doubt they do 20 kts in heavy chop because they were not designed for that. I built mine purely on a whim knowing nothing at all about power boats. My comparisons are therefor entirely theoretical. BTW, Tolmans ARE stitch and glue along the midjoint of the hull but nowhere else.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Technically, skin on frame. Along the keel iirc, the frame longitudal, is of layered glass, just like many FG boats.. Structure is created by angled and bent skin material (laminate)... The engineering and resulting structual integerity is what some don't really understand... I have built smaller stitch and glue boats and the Tolman has very little stitching, although I used maybe 12 wire loops along the bottom. |
Watching boats in chop
On Aug 17, 3:26 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 3:07 pm, wrote: On Aug 17, 2:59 pm, wrote: On Aug 17, 2:47 pm, hk wrote: wrote: On Aug 17, 2:25 pm, hk wrote: Vic Smith wrote: On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT), wrote: Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. The tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good chop in the channel. It was a great venue for watching how boats are handled in chop. About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. About 1/4 were going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. What did amaze me was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. These boats had transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business in such chop. My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no other basis for comparison. What degree of pounding is acceptable? You still thinking about doing a Bahamas trip with the Tolman? From your previous posts, I'm guessing the Tolman has been only in the river. Are you thinking about taking it to some chop to get a feel on its handling? I've given some thought to how I would test what is "safe water" if I get a Carolina Skiff, especially since my boat handing experience is limited. I've got a feeling that it will happen naturally, since I really don't want to go looking for trouble. More that I don't want a 10 grand motor dunked in salt water than anything else. But if you've been motoring the Tolman only in calm waters and plan to take it to the Bahamas, maybe a little "testing" is in order. --Vic Indeed, he ought to get some experience on the mighty waters of Lake Lanier.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - See, when you make a comment like "even a sheathed boat..." it let's us know you don't understand wood/glass composite. In that type of construction for one, the glass is to protect the wood, not necessarily to provide more structural integerity. That is provided by the laminates (plywood) and the framing used to secure it, bent panels, etc.. not the sheathing. In onother words, when it comes to this type of construction, you are out of your league... Let's see some photos of the larger, heavier duty stitch-and-glue boats you've built that regularly zip through really choppy, windy inlets at, say, 20 knots. I cannot discuss Parker boats because I have never seen one up close. However, if HK will look at the history of Tolman's, he will see that they were designed for rough conditions of AK for use as commercial fishing vessels. I doubt they do 20 kts in heavy chop because they were not designed for that. I built mine purely on a whim knowing nothing at all about power boats. My comparisons are therefor entirely theoretical. BTW, Tolmans ARE stitch and glue along the midjoint of the hull but nowhere else.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Technically, skin on frame. Along the keel iirc, the frame longitudal, is of layered glass, just like many FG boats.. Structure is created by angled and bent skin material (laminate)... The engineering and resulting structual integerity is what some don't really understand... Knowing nothing about parker boats, I googled them and looked over their FAQ. Look at this. "Why does Parker choose a wood stringer system over a fiberglass stringer system? With constant use over time, the low shear strength of foam core fiberglass stringers becomes evident. The foam begins to split and break down, allowing the glass skin to flex independently. The eventual result is hull failure. A wood stringer system maintains its strength without flexing. In order to achieve adequate strength in a fiberglass stringer system without injecting a core, it would be too heavy and expensive to produce. Mass (thickness) is the only way to provide strength in fiberglass stringers and unless a core (foam) is injected into the glass stringer system, there simply is not adequate strength. All the best manufacturers of small fiberglass boats agree that properly constructed boats begin with marine grade plywood stringers which are encapsulated and hand rolled in fiberglass and resin. Parker's solid fir plywood stringer system continues to give customers the strongest, toughest and safest fiberglass boats built. When boats are built properly, there is no need for gimmicks." |
Watching boats in chop
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Watching boats in chop
On Aug 17, 4:10 pm, hk wrote:
wrote: On Aug 17, 3:26 pm, wrote: On Aug 17, 3:07 pm, wrote: On Aug 17, 2:59 pm, wrote: On Aug 17, 2:47 pm, hk wrote: wrote: On Aug 17, 2:25 pm, hk wrote: Vic Smith wrote: On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT), wrote: Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. The tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good chop in the channel. It was a great venue for watching how boats are handled in chop. About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. About 1/4 were going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. What did amaze me was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. These boats had transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business in such chop. My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no other basis for comparison. What degree of pounding is acceptable? You still thinking about doing a Bahamas trip with the Tolman? From your previous posts, I'm guessing the Tolman has been only in the river. Are you thinking about taking it to some chop to get a feel on its handling? I've given some thought to how I would test what is "safe water" if I get a Carolina Skiff, especially since my boat handing experience is limited. I've got a feeling that it will happen naturally, since I really don't want to go looking for trouble. More that I don't want a 10 grand motor dunked in salt water than anything else. But if you've been motoring the Tolman only in calm waters and plan to take it to the Bahamas, maybe a little "testing" is in order. --Vic Indeed, he ought to get some experience on the mighty waters of Lake Lanier.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - See, when you make a comment like "even a sheathed boat..." it let's us know you don't understand wood/glass composite. In that type of construction for one, the glass is to protect the wood, not necessarily to provide more structural integerity. That is provided by the laminates (plywood) and the framing used to secure it, bent panels, etc.. not the sheathing. In onother words, when it comes to this type of construction, you are out of your league... Let's see some photos of the larger, heavier duty stitch-and-glue boats you've built that regularly zip through really choppy, windy inlets at, say, 20 knots. I cannot discuss Parker boats because I have never seen one up close. However, if HK will look at the history of Tolman's, he will see that they were designed for rough conditions of AK for use as commercial fishing vessels. I doubt they do 20 kts in heavy chop because they were not designed for that. I built mine purely on a whim knowing nothing at all about power boats. My comparisons are therefor entirely theoretical. BTW, Tolmans ARE stitch and glue along the midjoint of the hull but nowhere else.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Technically, skin on frame. Along the keel iirc, the frame longitudal, is of layered glass, just like many FG boats.. Structure is created by angled and bent skin material (laminate)... The engineering and resulting structual integerity is what some don't really understand... Knowing nothing about parker boats, I googled them and looked over their FAQ. Look at this. "Why does Parker choose a wood stringer system over a fiberglass stringer system? With constant use over time, the low shear strength of foam core fiberglass stringers becomes evident. The foam begins to split and break down, allowing the glass skin to flex independently. The eventual result is hull failure. A wood stringer system maintains its strength without flexing. In order to achieve adequate strength in a fiberglass stringer system without injecting a core, it would be too heavy and expensive to produce. Mass (thickness) is the only way to provide strength in fiberglass stringers and unless a core (foam) is injected into the glass stringer system, there simply is not adequate strength. All the best manufacturers of small fiberglass boats agree that properly constructed boats begin with marine grade plywood stringers which are encapsulated and hand rolled in fiberglass and resin. Parker's solid fir plywood stringer system continues to give customers the strongest, toughest and safest fiberglass boats built. When boats are built properly, there is no need for gimmicks." Parker's stringers are built in eggcrate fashion...with longitudinal and latitudinal members. I believe Grady's are built using approximately the same method. Parkers also have three piece, not two piece, hulls. It makes a difference. So, Harry, where do we disagree? I still say that my Tolman for its size is "stronger" than any production boat. BTW, the transoms of parkers are also wood for the very reasons I have discussed. |
Watching boats in chop
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Watching boats in chop
On Aug 17, 2:17*pm, hk wrote:
wrote: On Aug 17, 1:45 pm, hk wrote: wrote: On Aug 17, 1:35 pm, wrote: On Aug 17, 1:29 pm, wrote: Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. *The tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good chop in the channel. *It was a great venue for watching how boats are handled in chop. About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. *About 1/4 were going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. *What did amaze me was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. *These boats had transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business in such chop. My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no other basis for comparison. *What degree of pounding is acceptable? According to at least one person here, getting swamped from following seas because of a low transom is the way it should be. I suspect HK thinks I am trying to weigh in on some controversy over cut-away transoms but I never kept track of who was in who in that one. I suspect the Tolman is stronger than most Fiberglas boats and I have never heard of this happening so his answer is useless. *Any other answers on how much pounding is too much? My answer is correct: it depends upon the strength of the boat and the fortitude of its occupants. Beyond that, it is a meaningless question. BTW, if your Tolman is a homebuilt wood boat, it unlikely is "stronger" than most properly built fiberglass boats of the same size. I could tell you why, and in some detail, but...what's the point, eh? I believe my Tolman is "Stronger" than a comparable FG boat because FG is prone to fatigue failure whereas the Tolman is a composite of wood and FG. *In places where FG might fail due to fatigue there is a redundancy of wood that does not fatigue fail. *Any one of the joints between the wood on the Tolman is structuraly stronger than the corresponding place on a FG boat because the joint is very well reinforced with Biax FG overlaid with two layers of heavy glass. *Yes, you COULD do this on a pure FG boat but how many do? *Even then, you could overbuild a Tolman to be stronger than any pure FG boat simply by increasing the layers of biax. Unless they are holed, fiberglass hulls molded in one piece typically do not "fail." A point of failure for cheaply or improperly built fiberglass boats is the hull/deck joint, but that is the joint, not the hull. Bull****. Plain and simple. Since, apparently, you have not rammed your boat through a really choppy inlet at high speed, your "knowledge" of how it would handle that stuff is strictly theoretical. I have run small fiberglass boats through stuff that I know damned well would bust up a wood boat, even a fiberglass-sheathed wood boat. I know, because in my youth, I managed to "loosen" up a few wood and 'glass-sheathed boats until my old man read me the riot act. How do YOU know what type of conditions he's had his boat in? Run your boat real hard through some really choppy inlets and get back to us. * :)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Inlets.......yep, you should see some REAL inlet blasting. Go to CA, get with Calif Bill, and take that Parker out and back into Fort Bragg. |
Watching boats in chop
On Aug 17, 2:25*pm, hk wrote:
Vic Smith wrote: On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT), wrote: Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. *The tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good chop in the channel. *It was a great venue for watching how boats are handled in chop. About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. *About 1/4 were going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. *What did amaze me was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. *These boats had transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business in such chop. My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no other basis for comparison. *What degree of pounding is acceptable? You still thinking about doing a Bahamas trip with the Tolman? From your previous posts, I'm guessing the Tolman has been only in the river. *Are you thinking about taking it to some chop to get a feel on its handling? I've given some thought to how I would test what is "safe water" if I get a Carolina Skiff, especially since my boat handing experience is limited. *I've got a feeling that it will happen naturally, since I really don't want to go looking for trouble. *More that I don't want a 10 grand motor dunked in salt water than anything else. But if you've been motoring the Tolman only in calm waters and plan to take it to the Bahamas, maybe a little "testing" is in order. --Vic Indeed, he ought to get some experience on the mighty waters of Lake Lanier.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I'll bet money that I've seen Lanier as ugly as your protected bay waters. |
Watching boats in chop
On Aug 17, 2:32*pm, RMR wrote:
This is ridiculous.. the hybrids we make no adays are every bit as strong as wood stringer, poly boats.. You can't compare what your dad sold in his shop made of polyester resin, and the epoxy, mahogany, glass and bi axle made now. It's in the engineering, you can spew all you want, but you are wrong... The Toleman's in particular are some beefy boats that go where your Parker never will. I won't let you pull me into this one, you need to do your homework then come back and we will talk.. * On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 14:17:04 -0400, hk wrote: wrote: On Aug 17, 1:45 pm, hk wrote: wrote: On Aug 17, 1:35 pm, wrote: On Aug 17, 1:29 pm, wrote: Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. *The tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good chop in the channel. *It was a great venue for watching how boats are handled in chop. About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. *About 1/4 were going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. *What did amaze me was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. *These boats had transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business in such chop. My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no other basis for comparison. *What degree of pounding is acceptable? According to at least one person here, getting swamped from following seas because of a low transom is the way it should be. I suspect HK thinks I am trying to weigh in on some controversy over cut-away transoms but I never kept track of who was in who in that one. I suspect the Tolman is stronger than most Fiberglas boats and I have never heard of this happening so his answer is useless. *Any other answers on how much pounding is too much? My answer is correct: it depends upon the strength of the boat and the fortitude of its occupants. Beyond that, it is a meaningless question.. BTW, if your Tolman is a homebuilt wood boat, it unlikely is "stronger" than most properly built fiberglass boats of the same size. I could tell you why, and in some detail, but...what's the point, eh? I believe my Tolman is "Stronger" than a comparable FG boat because FG is prone to fatigue failure whereas the Tolman is a composite of wood and FG. *In places where FG might fail due to fatigue there is a redundancy of wood that does not fatigue fail. *Any one of the joints between the wood on the Tolman is structuraly stronger than the corresponding place on a FG boat because the joint is very well reinforced with Biax FG overlaid with two layers of heavy glass. *Yes, you COULD do this on a pure FG boat but how many do? *Even then, you could overbuild a Tolman to be stronger than any pure FG boat simply by increasing the layers of biax. Unless they are holed, fiberglass hulls molded in one piece typically do not "fail." A point of failure for cheaply or improperly built fiberglass boats is the hull/deck joint, but that is the joint, not the hull. Since, apparently, you have not rammed your boat through a really choppy inlet at high speed, your "knowledge" of how it would handle that stuff is strictly theoretical. I have run small fiberglass boats through stuff that I know damned well would bust up a wood boat, even a fiberglass-sheathed wood boat. I know, because in my youth, I managed to "loosen" up a few wood and 'glass-sheathed boats until my old man read me the riot act. Run your boat real hard through some really choppy inlets and get back to us. * :)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - His dad never had a marina. His dad also didn't make a trans-Atlantic trip in a runabout, nor did he get a fireboat welcome in NYC. Also, if this was true, according to Harry and JimH, his dad should have been in jail for child endangerment allowing him to take those boats out like that. |
Watching boats in chop
On Aug 17, 2:43*pm, hk wrote:
RMR wrote: This is ridiculous.. the hybrids we make no adays are every bit as strong as wood stringer, poly boats.. You can't compare what your dad sold in his shop made of polyester resin, and the epoxy, mahogany, glass and bi axle made now. It's in the engineering, you can spew all you want, but you are wrong... The Toleman's in particular are some beefy boats that go where your Parker never will. I won't let you pull me into this one, you need to do your homework then come back and we will talk.. * Consider you probably have never even been close to a Parker, or climbed aboard one and looked around, I find your comment laughable. Then your comment about a certain Tolman is equally laughable if you've not seen it. I've seen some stitch-and-glue dories around here, even a couple of 16-footers. I wasn't impressed. There are small dories that are wood handbuilt that will still be around when you're Parker is dead. What's the biggest stitch-and-glue heavy duty boat you've built that regularly plies the ocean? To think that someone can't build a wood boat at least as strong as a commercial company (who is trying to make a profit) that makes thin F.G. boats is stupid and absurd. |
Watching boats in chop
On Aug 17, 4:32 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 2:43 pm, hk wrote: RMR wrote: This is ridiculous.. the hybrids we make no adays are every bit as strong as wood stringer, poly boats.. You can't compare what your dad sold in his shop made of polyester resin, and the epoxy, mahogany, glass and bi axle made now. It's in the engineering, you can spew all you want, but you are wrong... The Toleman's in particular are some beefy boats that go where your Parker never will. I won't let you pull me into this one, you need to do your homework then come back and we will talk.. Consider you probably have never even been close to a Parker, or climbed aboard one and looked around, I find your comment laughable. Then your comment about a certain Tolman is equally laughable if you've not seen it. I've seen some stitch-and-glue dories around here, even a couple of 16-footers. I wasn't impressed. There are small dories that are wood handbuilt that will still be around when you're Parker is dead. What's the biggest stitch-and-glue heavy duty boat you've built that regularly plies the ocean? To think that someone can't build a wood boat at least as strong as a commercial company (who is trying to make a profit) that makes thin F.G. boats is stupid and absurd. I believe that empiracally and theoretically, that a joint made using epoxy/glass/biax/epoxy saturated wood is stronger than a poly-resin boat built with poly-glass/wood stringer construction. |
Watching boats in chop
On Aug 17, 4:48 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 4:32 pm, wrote: On Aug 17, 2:43 pm, hk wrote: RMR wrote: This is ridiculous.. the hybrids we make no adays are every bit as strong as wood stringer, poly boats.. You can't compare what your dad sold in his shop made of polyester resin, and the epoxy, mahogany, glass and bi axle made now. It's in the engineering, you can spew all you want, but you are wrong... The Toleman's in particular are some beefy boats that go where your Parker never will. I won't let you pull me into this one, you need to do your homework then come back and we will talk.. Consider you probably have never even been close to a Parker, or climbed aboard one and looked around, I find your comment laughable. Then your comment about a certain Tolman is equally laughable if you've not seen it. I've seen some stitch-and-glue dories around here, even a couple of 16-footers. I wasn't impressed. There are small dories that are wood handbuilt that will still be around when you're Parker is dead. What's the biggest stitch-and-glue heavy duty boat you've built that regularly plies the ocean? To think that someone can't build a wood boat at least as strong as a commercial company (who is trying to make a profit) that makes thin F.G. boats is stupid and absurd. I believe that empiracally and theoretically, that a joint made using epoxy/glass/biax/epoxy saturated wood is stronger than a poly-resin boat built with poly-glass/wood stringer construction. Even the best production boat company cannot put as much work into a boat as a home builder can. The home builder can afford to use the best materials and lavish time on each joint to maximize strength and when it is done decide to do it over whereas once the production boat company decides its profit margin is going down, so do invisible improvements. |
Watching boats in chop
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Watching boats in chop
On Aug 17, 5:09 pm, hk wrote:
wrote: On Aug 17, 4:48 pm, wrote: On Aug 17, 4:32 pm, wrote: On Aug 17, 2:43 pm, hk wrote: RMR wrote: This is ridiculous.. the hybrids we make no adays are every bit as strong as wood stringer, poly boats.. You can't compare what your dad sold in his shop made of polyester resin, and the epoxy, mahogany, glass and bi axle made now. It's in the engineering, you can spew all you want, but you are wrong... The Toleman's in particular are some beefy boats that go where your Parker never will. I won't let you pull me into this one, you need to do your homework then come back and we will talk.. Consider you probably have never even been close to a Parker, or climbed aboard one and looked around, I find your comment laughable. Then your comment about a certain Tolman is equally laughable if you've not seen it. I've seen some stitch-and-glue dories around here, even a couple of 16-footers. I wasn't impressed. There are small dories that are wood handbuilt that will still be around when you're Parker is dead. What's the biggest stitch-and-glue heavy duty boat you've built that regularly plies the ocean? To think that someone can't build a wood boat at least as strong as a commercial company (who is trying to make a profit) that makes thin F.G. boats is stupid and absurd. I believe that empiracally and theoretically, that a joint made using epoxy/glass/biax/epoxy saturated wood is stronger than a poly-resin boat built with poly-glass/wood stringer construction. Even the best production boat company cannot put as much work into a boat as a home builder can. The home builder can afford to use the best materials and lavish time on each joint to maximize strength and when it is done decide to do it over whereas once the production boat company decides its profit margin is going down, so do invisible improvements. I wouldn't leave the marina in the typical home built boat. I've seen lots of 'em. I'm not saying a careful knowledgeable builder can't do a fine job, because I have seen examples of those, too. But typically, the homebuilts I have seen are poorly constructed out of crappy materials. Memo to self: Cross HK offa invite list. |
Watching boats in chop
On Aug 17, 5:45*pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 5:09 pm, hk wrote: wrote: On Aug 17, 4:48 pm, wrote: On Aug 17, 4:32 pm, wrote: On Aug 17, 2:43 pm, hk wrote: RMR wrote: This is ridiculous.. the hybrids we make no adays are every bit as strong as wood stringer, poly boats.. You can't compare what your dad sold in his shop made of polyester resin, and the epoxy, mahogany, glass and bi axle made now. It's in the engineering, you can spew all you want, but you are wrong... The Toleman's in particular are some beefy boats that go where your Parker never will. I won't let you pull me into this one, you need to do your homework then come back and we will talk.. Consider you probably have never even been close to a Parker, or climbed aboard one and looked around, I find your comment laughable. Then your comment about a certain Tolman is equally laughable if you've not seen it. I've seen some stitch-and-glue dories around here, even a couple of 16-footers. I wasn't impressed. There are small dories that are wood handbuilt that will still be around when you're Parker is dead. What's the biggest stitch-and-glue heavy duty boat you've built that regularly plies the ocean? To think that someone can't build a wood boat at least as strong as a commercial company (who is trying to make a profit) that makes thin F.G. boats is stupid and absurd. I believe that empiracally and theoretically, that a joint made using epoxy/glass/biax/epoxy saturated wood is stronger than a poly-resin boat built with poly-glass/wood stringer construction. Even the best production boat company cannot put as much work into a boat as a home builder can. *The home builder can afford to use the best materials and lavish time on each joint to maximize strength and when it is done decide to do it over whereas once the production boat company decides its profit margin is going down, so do invisible improvements. I wouldn't leave the marina in the typical home built boat. I've seen lots of 'em. I'm not saying a careful knowledgeable builder can't do a fine job, because I have seen examples of those, too. But typically, the homebuilts I have seen are poorly constructed out of crappy materials. Memo to self: *Cross HK offa invite list.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - If you know the history, he was really trolling folks like myself who actually know a little about composite, skin on frame boats, try KF the guy, and Genes server, and life will be a lot easier.. I love the tolmans, I always wanted to build a Simmons Sea Skiff for "out east" here. |
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