Watching boats in chop
 

On Aug 17, 2:47*pm, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Aug 17, 2:25 pm, hk wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:
Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting
on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. *The
tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good
chop in the channel. *It was a great venue for watching how boats are
handled in chop.
About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and
eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. *About 1/4 were
going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. *What did amaze me
was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if
they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. *These boats had
transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business
in such chop.
My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no
other basis for comparison. *What degree of pounding is acceptable?
You still thinking about doing a Bahamas trip with the Tolman?
From your previous posts, I'm guessing the Tolman has been only
in the river. *Are you thinking about taking it to some chop to get a
feel on its handling?
I've given some thought to how I would test what is "safe water" if I
get a Carolina Skiff, especially since my boat handing experience is
limited. *I've got a feeling that it will happen naturally, since I
really don't want to go looking for trouble. *More that I don't want a
10 grand motor dunked in salt water than anything else.
But if you've been motoring the Tolman only in calm waters and plan to
take it to the Bahamas, maybe a little "testing" is in order.
--Vic
Indeed, he ought to get some experience on the mighty waters of Lake
Lanier.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

See, when you make a comment like "even a sheathed boat..." it let's
us know you don't understand wood/glass composite. In that type of
construction for one, the glass is to protect the wood, not
necessarily to provide more structural integerity. That is provided by
the laminates (plywood) and the framing used to secure it, bent
panels, etc.. not the sheathing. In onother words, when it comes to
this type of construction, you are out of your league...

Let's see some photos of the larger, heavier duty stitch-and-glue boats
you've built that regularly zip through really choppy, windy inlets at,
say, 20 knots.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

We again, are not talking stitch and glue, you don't know what you are
talking about, I am done with you too... plonk...

Watching boats in chop
 

On Aug 17, 2:47 pm, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Aug 17, 2:25 pm, hk wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:
Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting
on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. The
tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good
chop in the channel. It was a great venue for watching how boats are
handled in chop.
About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and
eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. About 1/4 were
going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. What did amaze me
was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if
they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. These boats had
transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business
in such chop.
My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no
other basis for comparison. What degree of pounding is acceptable?
You still thinking about doing a Bahamas trip with the Tolman?
From your previous posts, I'm guessing the Tolman has been only
in the river. Are you thinking about taking it to some chop to get a
feel on its handling?
I've given some thought to how I would test what is "safe water" if I
get a Carolina Skiff, especially since my boat handing experience is
limited. I've got a feeling that it will happen naturally, since I
really don't want to go looking for trouble. More that I don't want a
10 grand motor dunked in salt water than anything else.
But if you've been motoring the Tolman only in calm waters and plan to
take it to the Bahamas, maybe a little "testing" is in order.
--Vic
Indeed, he ought to get some experience on the mighty waters of Lake
Lanier.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

See, when you make a comment like "even a sheathed boat..." it let's
us know you don't understand wood/glass composite. In that type of
construction for one, the glass is to protect the wood, not
necessarily to provide more structural integerity. That is provided by
the laminates (plywood) and the framing used to secure it, bent
panels, etc.. not the sheathing. In onother words, when it comes to
this type of construction, you are out of your league...

Let's see some photos of the larger, heavier duty stitch-and-glue boats
you've built that regularly zip through really choppy, windy inlets at,
say, 20 knots.

I cannot discuss Parker boats because I have never seen one up close.
However, if HK will look at the history of Tolman's, he will see that
they were designed for rough conditions of AK for use as commercial
fishing vessels. I doubt they do 20 kts in heavy chop because they
were not designed for that. I built mine purely on a whim knowing
nothing at all about power boats. My comparisons are therefor
entirely theoretical.

Watching boats in chop
 

On Aug 17, 2:59 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 2:47 pm, hk wrote:



wrote:
On Aug 17, 2:25 pm, hk wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:
Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting
on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. The
tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good
chop in the channel. It was a great venue for watching how boats are
handled in chop.
About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and
eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. About 1/4 were
going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. What did amaze me
was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if
they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. These boats had
transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business
in such chop.
My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no
other basis for comparison. What degree of pounding is acceptable?
You still thinking about doing a Bahamas trip with the Tolman?
From your previous posts, I'm guessing the Tolman has been only
in the river. Are you thinking about taking it to some chop to get a
feel on its handling?
I've given some thought to how I would test what is "safe water" if I
get a Carolina Skiff, especially since my boat handing experience is
limited. I've got a feeling that it will happen naturally, since I
really don't want to go looking for trouble. More that I don't want a
10 grand motor dunked in salt water than anything else.
But if you've been motoring the Tolman only in calm waters and plan to
take it to the Bahamas, maybe a little "testing" is in order.
--Vic
Indeed, he ought to get some experience on the mighty waters of Lake
Lanier.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

See, when you make a comment like "even a sheathed boat..." it let's
us know you don't understand wood/glass composite. In that type of
construction for one, the glass is to protect the wood, not
necessarily to provide more structural integerity. That is provided by
the laminates (plywood) and the framing used to secure it, bent
panels, etc.. not the sheathing. In onother words, when it comes to
this type of construction, you are out of your league...

Let's see some photos of the larger, heavier duty stitch-and-glue boats
you've built that regularly zip through really choppy, windy inlets at,
say, 20 knots.

I cannot discuss Parker boats because I have never seen one up close.
However, if HK will look at the history of Tolman's, he will see that
they were designed for rough conditions of AK for use as commercial
fishing vessels. I doubt they do 20 kts in heavy chop because they
were not designed for that. I built mine purely on a whim knowing
nothing at all about power boats. My comparisons are therefor
entirely theoretical.

BTW, Tolmans ARE stitch and glue along the midjoint of the hull but
nowhere else.

Watching boats in chop
 

for the benefit of those who are not seeing half this conv.. A
Toleman is not stitch and glue, I have decided not to carry on this
conv...

Scotty

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 14:43:52 -0400, hk wrote:

RMR wrote:
This is ridiculous.. the hybrids we make no adays are every bit as
strong as wood stringer, poly boats.. You can't compare what your dad
sold in his shop made of polyester resin, and the epoxy, mahogany,
glass and bi axle made now. It's in the engineering, you can spew all
you want, but you are wrong... The Toleman's in particular are some
beefy boats that go where your Parker never will. I won't let you pull
me into this one, you need to do your homework then come back and we
will talk..


Consider you probably have never even been close to a Parker, or climbed
aboard one and looked around, I find your comment laughable.

I've seen some stitch-and-glue dories around here, even a couple of
16-footers. I wasn't impressed.

What's the biggest stitch-and-glue heavy duty boat you've built that
regularly plies the ocean?

Watching boats in chop
 

On Aug 17, 3:07*pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 2:59 pm, wrote:





On Aug 17, 2:47 pm, hk wrote:

wrote:
On Aug 17, 2:25 pm, hk wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:
Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting
on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties.. *The
tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good
chop in the channel. *It was a great venue for watching how boats are
handled in chop.
About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and
eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. *About 1/4 were
going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. *What did amaze me
was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if
they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. *These boats had
transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business
in such chop.
My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no
other basis for comparison. *What degree of pounding is acceptable?
You still thinking about doing a Bahamas trip with the Tolman?
From your previous posts, I'm guessing the Tolman has been only
in the river. *Are you thinking about taking it to some chop to get a
feel on its handling?
I've given some thought to how I would test what is "safe water" if I
get a Carolina Skiff, especially since my boat handing experience is
limited. *I've got a feeling that it will happen naturally, since I
really don't want to go looking for trouble. *More that I don't want a
10 grand motor dunked in salt water than anything else.
But if you've been motoring the Tolman only in calm waters and plan to
take it to the Bahamas, maybe a little "testing" is in order.
--Vic
Indeed, he ought to get some experience on the mighty waters of Lake
Lanier.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

See, when you make a comment like "even a sheathed boat..." it let's
us know you don't understand wood/glass composite. In that type of
construction for one, the glass is to protect the wood, not
necessarily to provide more structural integerity. That is provided by
the laminates (plywood) and the framing used to secure it, bent
panels, etc.. not the sheathing. In onother words, when it comes to
this type of construction, you are out of your league...

Let's see some photos of the larger, heavier duty stitch-and-glue boats
you've built that regularly zip through really choppy, windy inlets at,
say, 20 knots.

I cannot discuss Parker boats because I have never seen one up close.
However, if HK will look at the history of Tolman's, he will see that
they were designed for rough conditions of AK for use as commercial
fishing vessels. *I doubt they do 20 kts in heavy chop because they
were not designed for that. *I built mine purely on a whim knowing
nothing at all about power boats. *My comparisons are therefor
entirely theoretical.

BTW, Tolmans ARE stitch and glue along the midjoint of the hull but
nowhere else.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Technically, skin on frame. Along the keel iirc, the frame longitudal,
is of layered glass, just like many FG boats.. Structure is created by
angled and bent skin material (laminate)... The engineering and
resulting structual integerity is what some don't really understand...

Watching boats in chop
 

On Aug 17, 3:26 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 3:07 pm, wrote:



On Aug 17, 2:59 pm, wrote:

On Aug 17, 2:47 pm, hk wrote:

wrote:
On Aug 17, 2:25 pm, hk wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:
Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting
on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. The
tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good
chop in the channel. It was a great venue for watching how boats are
handled in chop.
About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and
eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. About 1/4 were
going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. What did amaze me
was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if
they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. These boats had
transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business
in such chop.
My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no
other basis for comparison. What degree of pounding is acceptable?
You still thinking about doing a Bahamas trip with the Tolman?
From your previous posts, I'm guessing the Tolman has been only
in the river. Are you thinking about taking it to some chop to get a
feel on its handling?
I've given some thought to how I would test what is "safe water" if I
get a Carolina Skiff, especially since my boat handing experience is
limited. I've got a feeling that it will happen naturally, since I
really don't want to go looking for trouble. More that I don't want a
10 grand motor dunked in salt water than anything else.
But if you've been motoring the Tolman only in calm waters and plan to
take it to the Bahamas, maybe a little "testing" is in order.
--Vic
Indeed, he ought to get some experience on the mighty waters of Lake
Lanier.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

See, when you make a comment like "even a sheathed boat..." it let's
us know you don't understand wood/glass composite. In that type of
construction for one, the glass is to protect the wood, not
necessarily to provide more structural integerity. That is provided by
the laminates (plywood) and the framing used to secure it, bent
panels, etc.. not the sheathing. In onother words, when it comes to
this type of construction, you are out of your league...

Let's see some photos of the larger, heavier duty stitch-and-glue boats
you've built that regularly zip through really choppy, windy inlets at,
say, 20 knots.

I cannot discuss Parker boats because I have never seen one up close.
However, if HK will look at the history of Tolman's, he will see that
they were designed for rough conditions of AK for use as commercial
fishing vessels. I doubt they do 20 kts in heavy chop because they
were not designed for that. I built mine purely on a whim knowing
nothing at all about power boats. My comparisons are therefor
entirely theoretical.

BTW, Tolmans ARE stitch and glue along the midjoint of the hull but
nowhere else.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Technically, skin on frame. Along the keel iirc, the frame longitudal,
is of layered glass, just like many FG boats.. Structure is created by
angled and bent skin material (laminate)... The engineering and
resulting structual integerity is what some don't really understand...

I have built smaller stitch and glue boats and the Tolman has very
little stitching, although I used maybe 12 wire loops along the bottom.

Watching boats in chop
 

On Aug 17, 3:26 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 3:07 pm, wrote:



On Aug 17, 2:59 pm, wrote:

On Aug 17, 2:47 pm, hk wrote:

wrote:
On Aug 17, 2:25 pm, hk wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:
Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting
on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. The
tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good
chop in the channel. It was a great venue for watching how boats are
handled in chop.
About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and
eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. About 1/4 were
going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. What did amaze me
was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if
they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. These boats had
transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business
in such chop.
My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no
other basis for comparison. What degree of pounding is acceptable?
You still thinking about doing a Bahamas trip with the Tolman?
From your previous posts, I'm guessing the Tolman has been only
in the river. Are you thinking about taking it to some chop to get a
feel on its handling?
I've given some thought to how I would test what is "safe water" if I
get a Carolina Skiff, especially since my boat handing experience is
limited. I've got a feeling that it will happen naturally, since I
really don't want to go looking for trouble. More that I don't want a
10 grand motor dunked in salt water than anything else.
But if you've been motoring the Tolman only in calm waters and plan to
take it to the Bahamas, maybe a little "testing" is in order.
--Vic
Indeed, he ought to get some experience on the mighty waters of Lake
Lanier.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

See, when you make a comment like "even a sheathed boat..." it let's
us know you don't understand wood/glass composite. In that type of
construction for one, the glass is to protect the wood, not
necessarily to provide more structural integerity. That is provided by
the laminates (plywood) and the framing used to secure it, bent
panels, etc.. not the sheathing. In onother words, when it comes to
this type of construction, you are out of your league...

Let's see some photos of the larger, heavier duty stitch-and-glue boats
you've built that regularly zip through really choppy, windy inlets at,
say, 20 knots.

I cannot discuss Parker boats because I have never seen one up close.
However, if HK will look at the history of Tolman's, he will see that
they were designed for rough conditions of AK for use as commercial
fishing vessels. I doubt they do 20 kts in heavy chop because they
were not designed for that. I built mine purely on a whim knowing
nothing at all about power boats. My comparisons are therefor
entirely theoretical.

BTW, Tolmans ARE stitch and glue along the midjoint of the hull but
nowhere else.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Technically, skin on frame. Along the keel iirc, the frame longitudal,
is of layered glass, just like many FG boats.. Structure is created by
angled and bent skin material (laminate)... The engineering and
resulting structual integerity is what some don't really understand...

Knowing nothing about parker boats, I googled them and looked over
their FAQ. Look at this.

"Why does Parker choose a wood stringer system over a fiberglass
stringer system?

With constant use over time, the low shear strength of foam core
fiberglass stringers becomes evident. The foam begins to split and
break down, allowing the glass skin to flex independently. The
eventual result is hull failure. A wood stringer system maintains its
strength without flexing. In order to achieve adequate strength in a
fiberglass stringer system without injecting a core, it would be too
heavy and expensive to produce. Mass (thickness) is the only way to
provide strength in fiberglass stringers and unless a core (foam) is
injected into the glass stringer system, there simply is not adequate
strength. All the best manufacturers of small fiberglass boats agree
that properly constructed boats begin with marine grade plywood
stringers which are encapsulated and hand rolled in fiberglass and
resin. Parker's solid fir plywood stringer system continues to give
customers the strongest, toughest and safest fiberglass boats built.
When boats are built properly, there is no need for gimmicks."

Watching boats in chop
 

wrote:
On Aug 17, 2:43 pm, hk wrote:
RMR wrote:
This is ridiculous.. the hybrids we make no adays are every bit as
strong as wood stringer, poly boats.. You can't compare what your dad
sold in his shop made of polyester resin, and the epoxy, mahogany,
glass and bi axle made now. It's in the engineering, you can spew all
you want, but you are wrong... The Toleman's in particular are some
beefy boats that go where your Parker never will. I won't let you pull
me into this one, you need to do your homework then come back and we
will talk..
Consider you probably have never even been close to a Parker, or climbed
aboard one and looked around, I find your comment laughable.

I've seen some stitch-and-glue dories around here, even a couple of
16-footers. I wasn't impressed.

What's the biggest stitch-and-glue heavy duty boat you've built that
regularly plies the ocean?

Toleman's are not sitch and glue.. you don't know what you don't
know...



"Tolman skiffs are dory-style skiffs with semi-vee bottoms made of
plywood/epoxy/fiberglass ***(sometimes called stitch-and-glue or
composite construction).***

"I have built over sixty since 1986 for sport and commercial use, and
many others have been built by amateurs and professionals in the US,
Canada, New Zealand, Europe, and elsewhere. I retired from building
skiffs commercially in 2000, and I now spend much of my summers using
mine here in Alaska.

I have designed three models, the "Standard," the "Widebody," and the
"Jumbo." The Standard and the Widebody are identical in profile, but the
Widebody has a 3-inch "chine flat" between the sides and bottom, like
most fiberglass boats (ten million fiberglass boats can't be wrong). The
Jumbo is a larger skiff in every dimension, has a 4-inch chine flat, and
has a deeper vee bottom. The Jumbo is designed specifically to use the
new four-stroke 115 to 150 horsepower engines."


From http://www.alaska.net/~tolmanskiffs/

That would be Renn Tolman's site.

Next?

What's the biggest stitch-and-glue heavy duty boat you've built that
regularly plies the ocean?

Watching boats in chop
 

Watching boats in chop
 

On Aug 17, 4:10 pm, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Aug 17, 3:26 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 3:07 pm, wrote:

On Aug 17, 2:59 pm, wrote:
On Aug 17, 2:47 pm, hk wrote:
wrote:
On Aug 17, 2:25 pm, hk wrote:
Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:29:09 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:
Yesterday, i was at St. Andrews State PArk near Panama City, FL siting
on the jetty watching boats going in and out between the jetties. The
tide was going out with s little wind opposing it so there was a good
chop in the channel. It was a great venue for watching how boats are
handled in chop.
About 1/4 of the boats were clearly going too fast for conditions and
eventually they would pound too hard and slow down. About 1/4 were
going too slow and were wallowing in the deep chop. What did amaze me
was the number of small boats with transoms cut away so much that if
they slowed down their own wake would swamp them. These boats had
transom tops only inches from the water and seemed to have no business
in such chop.
My Tolman is the first power boat I have ever driven so I have no
other basis for comparison. What degree of pounding is acceptable?
You still thinking about doing a Bahamas trip with the Tolman?
From your previous posts, I'm guessing the Tolman has been only
in the river. Are you thinking about taking it to some chop to get a
feel on its handling?
I've given some thought to how I would test what is "safe water" if I
get a Carolina Skiff, especially since my boat handing experience is
limited. I've got a feeling that it will happen naturally, since I
really don't want to go looking for trouble. More that I don't want a
10 grand motor dunked in salt water than anything else.
But if you've been motoring the Tolman only in calm waters and plan to
take it to the Bahamas, maybe a little "testing" is in order.
--Vic
Indeed, he ought to get some experience on the mighty waters of Lake
Lanier.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
See, when you make a comment like "even a sheathed boat..." it let's
us know you don't understand wood/glass composite. In that type of
construction for one, the glass is to protect the wood, not
necessarily to provide more structural integerity. That is provided by
the laminates (plywood) and the framing used to secure it, bent
panels, etc.. not the sheathing. In onother words, when it comes to
this type of construction, you are out of your league...
Let's see some photos of the larger, heavier duty stitch-and-glue boats
you've built that regularly zip through really choppy, windy inlets at,
say, 20 knots.
I cannot discuss Parker boats because I have never seen one up close.
However, if HK will look at the history of Tolman's, he will see that
they were designed for rough conditions of AK for use as commercial
fishing vessels. I doubt they do 20 kts in heavy chop because they
were not designed for that. I built mine purely on a whim knowing
nothing at all about power boats. My comparisons are therefor
entirely theoretical.
BTW, Tolmans ARE stitch and glue along the midjoint of the hull but
nowhere else.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Technically, skin on frame. Along the keel iirc, the frame longitudal,
is of layered glass, just like many FG boats.. Structure is created by
angled and bent skin material (laminate)... The engineering and
resulting structual integerity is what some don't really understand...

Knowing nothing about parker boats, I googled them and looked over
their FAQ. Look at this.

"Why does Parker choose a wood stringer system over a fiberglass
stringer system?

With constant use over time, the low shear strength of foam core
fiberglass stringers becomes evident. The foam begins to split and
break down, allowing the glass skin to flex independently. The
eventual result is hull failure. A wood stringer system maintains its
strength without flexing. In order to achieve adequate strength in a
fiberglass stringer system without injecting a core, it would be too
heavy and expensive to produce. Mass (thickness) is the only way to
provide strength in fiberglass stringers and unless a core (foam) is
injected into the glass stringer system, there simply is not adequate
strength. All the best manufacturers of small fiberglass boats agree
that properly constructed boats begin with marine grade plywood
stringers which are encapsulated and hand rolled in fiberglass and
resin. Parker's solid fir plywood stringer system continues to give
customers the strongest, toughest and safest fiberglass boats built.
When boats are built properly, there is no need for gimmicks."

Parker's stringers are built in eggcrate fashion...with longitudinal and
latitudinal members. I believe Grady's are built using approximately the
same method. Parkers also have three piece, not two piece, hulls. It
makes a difference.

So, Harry, where do we disagree? I still say that my Tolman for its
size is "stronger" than any production boat. BTW, the transoms of
parkers are also wood for the very reasons I have discussed.