On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 10:20:44 -0700 (PDT), "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:

I'm looking at buying my first boat. I'm looking at a "runabout" style
for family boating (tubing, cruising, etc). My wife and I looked at a
new 07 Bayliner 175 at the dealer for $14500. However, I hate thinking
about paying over $1000 in taxes on it.
I'm also looking at a 2003 185 Bayliner with 90 hours on it (both have
"family pack, stereo). The 185 has 190 hp fish/depth finder and new
trailer breaks for about $12,000

Not sure where you live, but the difference in tax between $12K and
$14.5K isn't much considering the total value of the vessel. - like
maybe $100.

So I guess the question is how much difference does 4 years make on a
boat. It certainly looks like I get much more boat in the 185. Is 90
hours much? I looked at some 185's at the dealer (all new though) but
I'm assuming the 2008 185 is still larger than the new 175.

Pre-owned boats can be problematic unless it's always been maintained
by the dealer, the dealer has service records on the boat and that the
proper maintainence has been completed when it needs to be done. You
won't be able to tell how the boat was run, but a good solid service
record will give you an idea of how the previous owner felt about
ownership.

The difference between a 175 and 185 is minimal believe it or not. You
would think the extra foot adds a lot but it doesn't.

In terms of money, it just so happens that there are two locally for
sale - 185 2003 Bayliner runabouts. One is in Bristol condition
(meaning it's pretty close to showroom) and it's advertised for $10.7K
and the other is in "good" condition at $9.9K. Checking the books
(which I just received a new set of) average high retail (averaging
all three books together) is $10.5K, average low retail is $9K.

With respect to the 2003, don't get all hot and bothered by the
fish/depth finder and brakes - that's normal maintenance and doesn't
add to the value of the boat at all.

Also, since I've never bought a boat before I'm not really sure what
to look for when I take a look at it. I know some of the newer
Bayliner's come with lifetime hull warrantys but I'm not sure about a
2002.

First of all, be aware that Bayliner is considered the Yugo of the
boating industry - in some cases deserved and in others not so much.
The more modern Bayliners are good boats - nothing stellar or
outstanding, just a good entry level boat.

The boat that you are considering is their entry level boat - it's
meant to be an introduction boat, run for a couple years and then if
you take a fancy to running the boat and the family likes it, trade up
to a larger or more powerful boat inline with your interests. I've
seen buys go from these small Bayliners to wakeboard/ski boats and in
one case a bass boat because the guy loved fishing and the family
could care less about boating.

In terms of purchase, it's always a good idea to have the boat looked
at by a good mechanic at another dealer. Pay for an hour of shop time
and have the engine checked - compression, hours, outdrive, etc.
Cosmetic things are generally noted when you are looking at the boat,
but don't do your looking all at once - that way you will miss things
like little tears in the vinyl, scuff marks here and there - that kind
of thing. Usually it's best to look it over, talk to the sales guy
away from the boat, then go back and look at it again more critically.

In terms of value, it really depends on the market in your area. In
general, this is a good time to buy second hand as there are a lot of
boats out there for sale and making a good deal is a little easier.

Lastly, as another member mentioned, you need to see if you are
comfortable with the boat, what exactly you expect from the boat (ski,
wake board, tube, fish), how many people onboard at any time (max),
etc. You need to get onboard and sit in the seats see if your are
comfortable and can move around sufficiently without restriction. How
much storage will you need - etc. A secondary consideration is if you
can properly tow the vessel with what ever you are using to tow with.

There are a lot of considerations in buying a boat. For example, I
purchased a 32' Contender Center Console a few years back thinking
that Mrs. Wave wasn't interested (or so she said at the time), then
she wanted something with a small cabin so I sold the CC and bought a
32' Contender Fisharound with cuddy and she rode in it three times and
never went back - not interested in boating or fishing. So I sold my
dream boat, purchased another different boat and ended up selling that
boat and I'm back in the market for a 32' CC again. :)

You may find something similar with this boat - your family might not
be interested.

Lots of things to think about.

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
news
There are a lot of considerations in buying a boat. For example, I
purchased a 32' Contender Center Console a few years back thinking
that Mrs. Wave wasn't interested (or so she said at the time), then
she wanted something with a small cabin so I sold the CC and bought a
32' Contender Fisharound with cuddy and she rode in it three times and
never went back - not interested in boating or fishing.

Maybe she wanted YOU to have the cabin, for your safety (hypothermia, locust
attack, etc)

On Mar 26, 12:46*pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 10:20:44 -0700 (PDT), "Robert M. Gary"

wrote:

Not sure where you live, but the difference in tax between $12K and
$14.5K isn't much considering the total value of the vessel. - like
maybe $100.

I live in a pretty high tax state so generally when you sell something
to someone you write two contracts. One for the state and another for
the actual sale price. Of course the dealer can't do that.

Pre-owned boats can be problematic unless it's always been maintained
by the dealer, the dealer has service records on the boat and that the

What types of things do you see go wrong when boats are not maintained
well? Everyone has told me I should go out with the seller on the
water but other than making sure the engine doesn't die I'm not sure
what I'm suppose to be doing. I'm pretty handy mechanically (I've
rebuilt car motors, etc) so I could do some maintenance myself.

The difference between a 175 and 185 is minimal believe it or not. You
would think the extra foot adds a lot but it doesn't.

One of the things I was thinking was just capacity. The 175 has a
Coast Guard sticker that says "7 people". We're a family of 4 and it
would be cool to invite another family of 4 on board. The 185 says 8
people so I was just thinking it would be better to have the 8. Of
course 1/2 those people will probably have to be little guys (pre-
teens).

First of all, be aware that Bayliner is considered the Yugo of the
boating industry - in some cases deserved and in others not so much.
The more modern Bayliners are good boats - nothing stellar or
outstanding, just a good entry level boat.

The dealer kind of mentioned that. He said they're well built boats
but they they are pretty stripped down.

The boat that you are considering is their entry level boat - it's
meant to be an introduction boat, run for a couple years and then if
you take a fancy to running the boat and the family likes it, trade up
to a larger or more powerful boat inline with your interests. *I've
seen buys go from these small Bayliners to wakeboard/ski boats and in
one case a bass boat because the guy loved fishing and the family
could care less about boating.

I was kind of thinking that. If I bought from the dealer I would have
the warranty and dealer support (which would be good for a newby) but
I would incur the large initial depreciation. If I bought used I could
let the previous owner lose the depreciation and be able to sell it in
a couple years for near what I bought it for.


Lastly, as another member mentioned, you need to see if you are
comfortable with the boat, what exactly you expect from the boat (ski,
wake board, tube, fish), how many people onboard at any time (max),
etc. *You need to get onboard and sit in the seats see if your are
comfortable and can move around sufficiently without restriction. How
much storage will you need - etc. *A secondary consideration is if you
can properly tow the vessel with what ever you are using to tow with.

Hehe, when we bought the plane I took the family over to the service
center and did a "fit test" to see that everyone fit ok. My wife was a
bit offended at the notion that she may not "fit" but it was helpful.
My boys are just so excited about getting a boat I think they'd be
happy to ride in a raft.

Some years back I flew sea planes for an operator in central
California. I loved spending time on the water (sometimes I'd land in
the middle of the lake and just jump in). We just got back from Mexico
where we would often hire local fisherman to take us around nearby
islands for snorkling. That kind of got the fire burning again.
Interestingly there are no inboard motors in Mexico, every single boat
I saw was outboard.


-Robert

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
...

The difference between a 175 and 185 is minimal believe it or not. You
would think the extra foot adds a lot but it doesn't.

One of the things I was thinking was just capacity. The 175 has a
Coast Guard sticker that says "7 people". We're a family of 4 and it
would be cool to invite another family of 4 on board. The 185 says 8
people so I was just thinking it would be better to have the 8. Of
course 1/2 those people will probably have to be little guys (pre-
teens).

======================

Those stickers refer to safe weight, not comfort. I have a 14 foot boat. I
can safely carry 5 people, according to the sticker. But, we'd be bored,
hungry & thirsty because there'd be no room for anything but people, some
rope, and the gas tank.

I can't imagine 8 people on an 18 foot boat. OK...maybe for about 20
minutes. But not much longer.

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 13:18:24 -0700 (PDT), "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:

On Mar 26, 12:46*pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 10:20:44 -0700 (PDT), "Robert M. Gary"

wrote:

Not sure where you live, but the difference in tax between $12K and
$14.5K isn't much considering the total value of the vessel. - like
maybe $100.

I live in a pretty high tax state so generally when you sell something
to someone you write two contracts. One for the state and another for
the actual sale price. Of course the dealer can't do that.

It's still a minor consideration.

Pre-owned boats can be problematic unless it's always been maintained
by the dealer, the dealer has service records on the boat and that the

What types of things do you see go wrong when boats are not maintained
well? Everyone has told me I should go out with the seller on the
water but other than making sure the engine doesn't die I'm not sure
what I'm suppose to be doing. I'm pretty handy mechanically (I've
rebuilt car motors, etc) so I could do some maintenance myself.

All kinds of things, but these boats are new enough that things like
water migration and such aren't really a problem. You just want to
take a closer look at an older boat - in particular the outdrive and
where it passes through the transom. On an older boat, like the 2003,
you might want to have the boot and seal changed to to be sure.

In general, just look at the hull, make sure there aren't any huge
gouges, etc. There probably won't be because it's still new and it is
being sold by a dealer - meaning that it probably was a trade in and
they don't trade junk boats.

The difference between a 175 and 185 is minimal believe it or not. You
would think the extra foot adds a lot but it doesn't.

One of the things I was thinking was just capacity. The 175 has a
Coast Guard sticker that says "7 people". We're a family of 4 and it
would be cool to invite another family of 4 on board. The 185 says 8
people so I was just thinking it would be better to have the 8. Of
course 1/2 those people will probably have to be little guys (pre-
teens).

The problem here is that little people become big people very quickly.
And remember, when the boat is loaded, performance suffers. You may
want to look at a 20 footer if you are serious about having eight
people aboard.

~~ snip ~~

The boat that you are considering is their entry level boat - it's
meant to be an introduction boat, run for a couple years and then if
you take a fancy to running the boat and the family likes it, trade up
to a larger or more powerful boat inline with your interests. *I've
seen buys go from these small Bayliners to wakeboard/ski boats and in
one case a bass boat because the guy loved fishing and the family
could care less about boating.

I was kind of thinking that. If I bought from the dealer I would have
the warranty and dealer support (which would be good for a newby) but
I would incur the large initial depreciation. If I bought used I could
let the previous owner lose the depreciation and be able to sell it in
a couple years for near what I bought it for.

Oh oh. :)

Unfortunately, that's not anywhere near the truth. Boats, in
particular entry level boats, depreciate very quickly - you will lose
at least 25% for just a couple of years of use. Don't think that you
will recover your investment like that - it just doesn't happen with
these types of boats.

Other boats - yes - you will not lose as much, but you will not get
what you invested. For example, I have a 2000 Ranger with a
relatively new 2006 200 hp ETEC HO (low hours/5 years on the warranty
left) and recently redone trailer. I have it insured for $34,000
because that's about what it's worth if I had to replace it. I'd be
hard pressed to sell it for $16K - more like $12K and I'd have to wait
a while for that. This is a quality boat by the way.

That's just an illustration. I've been in the used market looking for
that one boat that I will keep until I can't use it anymore and
prices, compared to new, are amazing in terms of what the owners have
lost even in used value.

Just a word to the wise.

Lastly, as another member mentioned, you need to see if you are
comfortable with the boat, what exactly you expect from the boat (ski,
wake board, tube, fish), how many people onboard at any time (max),
etc. *You need to get onboard and sit in the seats see if your are
comfortable and can move around sufficiently without restriction. How
much storage will you need - etc. *A secondary consideration is if you
can properly tow the vessel with what ever you are using to tow with.

Hehe, when we bought the plane I took the family over to the service
center and did a "fit test" to see that everyone fit ok. My wife was a
bit offended at the notion that she may not "fit" but it was helpful.
My boys are just so excited about getting a boat I think they'd be
happy to ride in a raft.

Some years back I flew sea planes for an operator in central
California. I loved spending time on the water (sometimes I'd land in
the middle of the lake and just jump in). We just got back from Mexico
where we would often hire local fisherman to take us around nearby
islands for snorkling. That kind of got the fire burning again.
Interestingly there are no inboard motors in Mexico, every single boat
I saw was outboard.

Seems like we've discussed this before - I have a strange sense of
deja vue all over again. :)

I'm an unabashed outboard guy - prefer them to inboards for any number
of reasons that I don't want to rehash as I've made my points so
often, it gets boring. :)

On Mar 26, 1:47*pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 13:18:24 -0700 (PDT), "Robert M. Gary"

I live in a pretty high tax state so generally when you sell something
to someone you write two contracts. One for the state and another for
the actual sale price. Of course the dealer can't do that.

It's still a minor consideration.

Its about $1000. If I pay for taxes on the $14500 boat from the dealer
I'm paying $1123 in sales tax. If I buy the $11,000 boat from the
individual and we report it as $1500 to the state I'll pay $116.
That's almost $1000 savings.

-Robert

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 15:27:16 -0700 (PDT), "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:

On Mar 26, 1:47*pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 13:18:24 -0700 (PDT), "Robert M. Gary"

I live in a pretty high tax state so generally when you sell something
to someone you write two contracts. One for the state and another for
the actual sale price. Of course the dealer can't do that.

It's still a minor consideration.

Its about $1000. If I pay for taxes on the $14500 boat from the dealer
I'm paying $1123 in sales tax. If I buy the $11,000 boat from the
individual and we report it as $1500 to the state I'll pay $116.
That's almost $1000 savings.

Do you register the boat with your DMV?

I guarentee you, unless it's reported as a loss of some sort, you will
be paying book price for the sales tax. CT DMV does it all the time
on sales that are less than 10% of similar sales.

Most states have caught up with that dodge.

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 15:27:16 -0700 (PDT), "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:

On Mar 26, 1:47*pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 13:18:24 -0700 (PDT), "Robert M. Gary"

I live in a pretty high tax state so generally when you sell something
to someone you write two contracts. One for the state and another for
the actual sale price. Of course the dealer can't do that.

It's still a minor consideration.

Its about $1000. If I pay for taxes on the $14500 boat from the dealer
I'm paying $1123 in sales tax. If I buy the $11,000 boat from the
individual and we report it as $1500 to the state I'll pay $116.
That's almost $1000 savings.

-Robert

Must be a stupid state if it doesn't check book values.
--
John *H*
(Not the other one!)

On Mar 26, 5:05*pm, John H. wrote:
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 15:27:16 -0700 (PDT), "Robert M. Gary"

Must be a stupid state if it doesn't check book values.

Typically you just tell them it wasn't running when you bought it.
I've known "friends" who have done this was cars, planes, etc.

-Robert

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
...
snip.....
One of the things I was thinking was just capacity. The 175 has a
Coast Guard sticker that says "7 people". We're a family of 4 and it
would be cool to invite another family of 4 on board. The 185 says 8
people so I was just thinking it would be better to have the 8. Of
course 1/2 those people will probably have to be little guys (pre-
teens).

snip...
-Robert

I remember the time the guy I crewed with (Mirage 33 sailboat) invited a
family with four rugrats.
Man...was I glad to see the shore again. There's always one kid who gets
upset/sick whatever and disrupts the whole trip.
Too bad because the mom was a babe.