Curtis CCR wrote:
It is my understanding that research on those vehicles has shown that their
production results in far more energy use than the production of standard
vehicles.

You must be referring to that silly article that circulated last year
saying that Hummers were more eco friendly and the real cost of a
Prius, over its lifespan, was something like $300,000. It was BS.

Where do the chemicals that comprise the battery cells some from and how
do they get into the battery cell? What is the effect, cost, of the
mining of the component chemicals? What is the effect, cost, of the
materials used and needing disposal during the battery manufacturing
process?

I am not saying that people shouldn't drive Hummers - I am a Prius
owner that also drives a American made "crossover vehicle" that
typically gets less than 20mpg. You want to drive a Hummer? Fine
with me! I can't tow a boat with my Prius.

What is the cost of a new battery pack for your Prius?

On Feb 11, 4:49 pm, BAR wrote:
Curtis CCR wrote:
It is my understanding that research on those vehicles has shown that their
production results in far more energy use than the production of standard
vehicles.

You must be referring to that silly article that circulated last year
saying that Hummers were more eco friendly and the real cost of a
Prius, over its lifespan, was something like $300,000. It was BS.

Where do the chemicals that comprise the battery cells some from and how
do they get into the battery cell? What is the effect, cost, of the
mining of the component chemicals? What is the effect, cost, of the
materials used and needing disposal during the battery manufacturing
process?

I don't know, but batteries are recyclable. There are NiMH batteries,
the kind that have been used in portable electronics devices for
years. Likewise NiCad has been around for decades and are used in
large applications. I want to know who is paying the $300,000 in
total cost for my Prius. I'd like to thank them.



I am not saying that people shouldn't drive Hummers - I am a Prius
owner that also drives a American made "crossover vehicle" that
typically gets less than 20mpg. You want to drive a Hummer? Fine
with me! I can't tow a boat with my Prius.

What is the cost of a new battery pack for your Prius?

I honestly don't know. There are 20something individual cells that
make of the battery string and I have never heard of anyone having to
replace them all. Since in CA they are warranted for 150,000 miles it
is not a common customer paid repair.

Curtis CCR wrote:
On Feb 11, 4:49 pm, BAR wrote:
Curtis CCR wrote:
It is my understanding that research on those vehicles has shown that their
production results in far more energy use than the production of standard
vehicles.
You must be referring to that silly article that circulated last year
saying that Hummers were more eco friendly and the real cost of a
Prius, over its lifespan, was something like $300,000. It was BS.
Where do the chemicals that comprise the battery cells some from and how
do they get into the battery cell? What is the effect, cost, of the
mining of the component chemicals? What is the effect, cost, of the
materials used and needing disposal during the battery manufacturing
process?

I don't know, but batteries are recyclable. There are NiMH batteries,
the kind that have been used in portable electronics devices for
years. Likewise NiCad has been around for decades and are used in
large applications. I want to know who is paying the $300,000 in
total cost for my Prius. I'd like to thank them.

What is the cost to recover the metals and chemicals in the NiMH and
LION batteries? The wife and I were watching a show on the history
channel last night and she was furiously writing down the names of
companys that did the metal polishing and metals reclamation. She said
that she had recently given 250 cells to an recycler and that there was
about $200K of platinum that could have been reclaimed. I asked her how
much they charge to reclaim the platinum and she replied that they would
see about $40K back. So, it is possible to reclaim the metals. And, the
chemicals are all but worn out by the time the cells are sent out for
recycling.

Your kids and grandkids would like to have the $300K for some other things.

I am not saying that people shouldn't drive Hummers - I am a Prius
owner that also drives a American made "crossover vehicle" that
typically gets less than 20mpg. You want to drive a Hummer? Fine
with me! I can't tow a boat with my Prius.
What is the cost of a new battery pack for your Prius?

I honestly don't know. There are 20something individual cells that
make of the battery string and I have never heard of anyone having to
replace them all. Since in CA they are warranted for 150,000 miles it
is not a common customer paid repair.

Does the warranty transfer from the original owners to the second
owners? If not the resale value is about zero.

On Feb 12, 4:58 am, BAR wrote:
Curtis CCR wrote:

What is the cost of a new battery pack for your Prius?

I honestly don't know. There are 20something individual cells that
make of the battery string and I have never heard of anyone having to
replace them all. Since in CA they are warranted for 150,000 miles it
is not a common customer paid repair.

Does the warranty transfer from the original owners to the second
owners? If not the resale value is about zero.

Yes. In California the batteries are considered part of the emissions
systems. This is a state required warranty and it's transferable.

On Feb 11, 4:49�pm, BAR wrote:
Curtis CCR wrote:
It is my understanding that research on those vehicles has shown that their
production results in far more energy use than the production of standard
vehicles.

You must be referring to that silly article that circulated last year
saying that Hummers were more eco friendly and the real cost of a
Prius, over its lifespan, was something like $300,000. �It was BS.

Where do the chemicals that comprise the battery cells some from and how
do they get into the battery cell? What is the effect, cost, of the
mining of the component chemicals? What is the effect, cost, of the
materials used and needing disposal during the battery manufacturing
process?

I am not saying that people shouldn't drive Hummers - I am a Prius
owner that also drives a American made "crossover vehicle" that
typically gets less than 20mpg. �You want to drive a Hummer? �Fine
with me! �I can't tow a boat with my Prius.

What is the cost of a new battery pack for your Prius?

What is the total "cost" of a gallon of gas refined from mid-East oil?

Add in the billions per month spent occupying a country so we can keep
our military assets within easy striking range of any Arab states that
might dare "terrorize" America by curtailing the export of oil. As
there were no WMD to elminate and it now appears that the majority of
the population is more interested in a religious dictatorship than a
secular deomcracy (if only they could agree on which particular
competing branch of Islam would do the dictating), there is no reason
other than securing or maintaining a flow of mid-East crude for us to
remain in Iraq.

Every mile my (wife's) car drives that isn't fueled by Arab oil is one
more reason to bring our troops home and helps establish American
energy independence. Until we can tell the Saudis, etc, to go and
perform an act that is biologically impossible we will be subject to
the threat of a disruption in our economic lifeline and cannot
realistically
pull our military out of harm's way.

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:14:57 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Feb 11, 4:49?pm, BAR wrote:
Curtis CCR wrote:
It is my understanding that research on those vehicles has shown that their
production results in far more energy use than the production of standard
vehicles.

You must be referring to that silly article that circulated last year
saying that Hummers were more eco friendly and the real cost of a
Prius, over its lifespan, was something like $300,000. ?It was BS.

Where do the chemicals that comprise the battery cells some from and how
do they get into the battery cell? What is the effect, cost, of the
mining of the component chemicals? What is the effect, cost, of the
materials used and needing disposal during the battery manufacturing
process?

I am not saying that people shouldn't drive Hummers - I am a Prius
owner that also drives a American made "crossover vehicle" that
typically gets less than 20mpg. ?You want to drive a Hummer? ?Fine
with me! ?I can't tow a boat with my Prius.

What is the cost of a new battery pack for your Prius?

What is the total "cost" of a gallon of gas refined from mid-East oil?

Add in the billions per month spent occupying a country so we can keep
our military assets within easy striking range of any Arab states that
might dare "terrorize" America by curtailing the export of oil. As
there were no WMD to elminate and it now appears that the majority of
the population is more interested in a religious dictatorship than a
secular deomcracy (if only they could agree on which particular
competing branch of Islam would do the dictating), there is no reason
other than securing or maintaining a flow of mid-East crude for us to
remain in Iraq.


Chuck, do you think it would be a lot cheaper if Iran controlled all of it?
Is securing and maintaining a flow of Mid-East crude not in our national
interests?

Every mile my (wife's) car drives that isn't fueled by Arab oil is one
more reason to bring our troops home and helps establish American
energy independence. Until we can tell the Saudis, etc, to go and
perform an act that is biologically impossible we will be subject to
the threat of a disruption in our economic lifeline and cannot
realistically
pull our military out of harm's way.


How much of the fuel used by your wife is not Arab derived?

Note: If you and your wife like the Prius, then that's what you should be
driving. I've a friend who drives one, and he and his wife love it. If it
would tow a boat, I might have considered one myself.
--
John H

On Feb 18, 4:41�pm, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:14:57 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould





wrote:
On Feb 11, 4:49?pm, BAR wrote:
Curtis CCR wrote:
It is my understanding that research on those vehicles has shown that their
production results in far more energy use than the production of standard
vehicles.

You must be referring to that silly article that circulated last year
saying that Hummers were more eco friendly and the real cost of a
Prius, over its lifespan, was something like $300,000. ?It was BS.

Where do the chemicals that comprise the battery cells some from and how
do they get into the battery cell? What is the effect, cost, of the
mining of the component chemicals? What is the effect, cost, of the
materials used and needing disposal during the battery manufacturing
process?

I am not saying that people shouldn't drive Hummers - I am a Prius
owner that also drives a American made "crossover vehicle" that
typically gets less than 20mpg. ?You want to drive a Hummer? ?Fine
with me! ?I can't tow a boat with my Prius.

What is the cost of a new battery pack for your Prius?

What is the total "cost" of a gallon of gas refined from mid-East oil?

Add in the billions per month spent occupying a country so we can keep
our military assets within easy striking range of any Arab states that
might dare "terrorize" America by curtailing the export of oil. As
there were no WMD to elminate and it now appears that the majority of
the population is more interested in a religious dictatorship than a
secular deomcracy (if only they could agree on which particular
competing branch of Islam would do the dictating), there is no reason
other than securing or maintaining a flow of mid-East crude for us to
remain in Iraq.

Chuck, do you think it would be a lot cheaper if Iran controlled all of it?
Is securing and maintaining a flow of Mid-East crude not in our national
interests?



Our ultimate national interest would be served by breaking the yoke of
the mideast oil sheiks.

And no, digging up ANWR for the approximately 90-day supply of
"American" crude oil contained there is not the solution.

It has not been in the vested interest of companies who milk some
extremely profitable economic cows for this country to move toward
realistic energy independence. With $40 billion profits reported by
Exxon alone, the companies have more than enough $$$ to rent every
Democrat and Republican in congress and assure that no meaningful
energy reform will ever occur.

Figure out a way to let Exxon, Mobil, etc create a profitable monopoly
on alternative energy sources and in five years we wouldn't need a
drop of Arab oil. As there isn't a realistic way for BIGOIL to
monopolize alternative energy in the same manner that it has long
enjoyed oligarchy over the nation's oil supply, the best "business"
solution is to ensure that the economy will remain largely dependent
upon the product that BIGOIL does control.



Every mile my (wife's) car drives that isn't fueled by Arab oil is one
more reason to bring our troops home and helps establish American
energy independence. Until we can tell the Saudis, etc, to go and
perform an act that is biologically impossible we will be subject to
the threat of a disruption in our economic lifeline and cannot
realistically
pull our military out of harm's way.

How much of the fuel used by your wife is not Arab derived?

Note: If you and your wife like the Prius, then that's what you should be
driving. I've a friend who drives one, and he and his wife love it. If it
would tow a boat, I might have considered one myself.

My wife already drives a hybrid, but it's not a Prius. If I didn't
have to haul 600 pounds of magazines around a couple of times per
month I would own something more economical and greener than my Volvo
V40.

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 18:19:56 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Feb 18, 4:41?pm, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:14:57 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould





wrote:
On Feb 11, 4:49?pm, BAR wrote:
Curtis CCR wrote:
It is my understanding that research on those vehicles has shown that their
production results in far more energy use than the production of standard
vehicles.

You must be referring to that silly article that circulated last year
saying that Hummers were more eco friendly and the real cost of a
Prius, over its lifespan, was something like $300,000. ?It was BS.

Where do the chemicals that comprise the battery cells some from and how
do they get into the battery cell? What is the effect, cost, of the
mining of the component chemicals? What is the effect, cost, of the
materials used and needing disposal during the battery manufacturing
process?

I am not saying that people shouldn't drive Hummers - I am a Prius
owner that also drives a American made "crossover vehicle" that
typically gets less than 20mpg. ?You want to drive a Hummer? ?Fine
with me! ?I can't tow a boat with my Prius.

What is the cost of a new battery pack for your Prius?

What is the total "cost" of a gallon of gas refined from mid-East oil?

Add in the billions per month spent occupying a country so we can keep
our military assets within easy striking range of any Arab states that
might dare "terrorize" America by curtailing the export of oil. As
there were no WMD to elminate and it now appears that the majority of
the population is more interested in a religious dictatorship than a
secular deomcracy (if only they could agree on which particular
competing branch of Islam would do the dictating), there is no reason
other than securing or maintaining a flow of mid-East crude for us to
remain in Iraq.

Chuck, do you think it would be a lot cheaper if Iran controlled all of it?
Is securing and maintaining a flow of Mid-East crude not in our national
interests?



Our ultimate national interest would be served by breaking the yoke of
the mideast oil sheiks.

True, but it didn't answer the question.

And no, digging up ANWR for the approximately 90-day supply of
"American" crude oil contained there is not the solution.

Also true, if the supply is only 90 days. But, it didn't answer the
question.

It has not been in the vested interest of companies who milk some
extremely profitable economic cows for this country to move toward
realistic energy independence. With $40 billion profits reported by
Exxon alone, the companies have more than enough $$$ to rent every
Democrat and Republican in congress and assure that no meaningful
energy reform will ever occur.

Could be true. Just remember that those profits are shared by folks like
you and I and millions of others who have retirement accounts, mutual
funds, etc.

And, it still didn't answer the question.

Figure out a way to let Exxon, Mobil, etc create a profitable monopoly
on alternative energy sources and in five years we wouldn't need a
drop of Arab oil. As there isn't a realistic way for BIGOIL to
monopolize alternative energy in the same manner that it has long
enjoyed oligarchy over the nation's oil supply, the best "business"
solution is to ensure that the economy will remain largely dependent
upon the product that BIGOIL does control.


As Exxon, Mobil, etc. are publicly owned companies, you have a lot of folks
to convince that the profits should be greatly reduced.

But, you've still not answered the question.


Every mile my (wife's) car drives that isn't fueled by Arab oil is one
more reason to bring our troops home and helps establish American
energy independence. Until we can tell the Saudis, etc, to go and
perform an act that is biologically impossible we will be subject to
the threat of a disruption in our economic lifeline and cannot
realistically
pull our military out of harm's way.

How much of the fuel used by your wife is not Arab derived?

Another question not answered.

Note: If you and your wife like the Prius, then that's what you should be
driving. I've a friend who drives one, and he and his wife love it. If it
would tow a boat, I might have considered one myself.

My wife already drives a hybrid, but it's not a Prius. If I didn't
have to haul 600 pounds of magazines around a couple of times per
month I would own something more economical and greener than my Volvo
V40.

Don't know where I got the Prius idea. Whatever she drives, if she enjoys
it, then she should be driving it.

Now, you've said a whole lot of words. But none of them answered the simple
questions you raised with your initial comments about military assets in
the Mid-East.
--
John H

On Feb 18, 6:38�pm, John H. wrote:


Now, you've said a whole lot of words. But none of them answered the simple
questions you raised with your initial comments about military assets in
the Mid-East.

I'll be more obvious. We shouldn't have to *care* whether Iran
controls all of the oil in the middle East.

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Feb 18, 6:38�pm, John H. wrote:

Now, you've said a whole lot of words. But none of them answered the simple
questions you raised with your initial comments about military assets in
the Mid-East.

I'll be more obvious. We shouldn't have to *care* whether Iran
controls all of the oil in the middle East.


We shouldn't have to care but, Iran cares who controls the oil in the
middle East. And, they want to control all of the oil in the middle
East. If the middle east didn't have any oil nobody would care what they
did.