Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

....but the Battle Hymn of the Republic *was* religious, after all. This is
a beautiful rendition. If the pictures are bothersome, shut the monitor
off!

http://www.trdaniel.com/Battle%20Hymn/index.htm
--
John H

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

On Dec 20, 1:48�pm, John H. wrote:
...but the Battle Hymn of the Republic *was* religious, after all. This is
a beautiful rendition. If the pictures are bothersome, shut the monitor
off!

http://www.trdaniel.com/Battle%20Hymn/index.htm
--
John H

Nice, even if a bit over-produced.

Reminds me that back when I was a kid we used to play that as a very
slow blues song. Listen to it carefullly, and you can easily hear the
I,IV,V progression. One of my lost skills is the blues harp; and some
long, wailing, bent blue notes can just about bring tears to your eyes
in that tune. Come to think of it, a lot of people cry when they hear
me play..... :-)

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

I always appreciated the hymn.

Thanks John....

Chuck Gould wrote:
On Dec 20, 1:48?pm, John H. wrote:
...but the Battle Hymn of the Republic *was* religious, after all. This is
a beautiful rendition. If the pictures are bothersome, shut the monitor
off!

http://www.trdaniel.com/Battle%20Hymn/index.htm
--
John H

Nice, even if a bit over-produced.

Reminds me that back when I was a kid we used to play that as a very
slow blues song. Listen to it carefullly, and you can easily hear the
I,IV,V progression. One of my lost skills is the blues harp; and some
long, wailing, bent blue notes can just about bring tears to your eyes
in that tune. Come to think of it, a lot of people cry when they hear
me play..... :-)

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

John H. wrote in
:

but the Battle Hymn of the Republic *was* religious, after all.

More Masonic than religious....actually.
http://www.masonmusic.org/uslodge.html
They play it a lot....

Larry
--
QUOTE OF THE MONTH:
"I have been to several major Chinese cities and have seen first hand shops
crammed with obviously fake American products." - Jon Dudas, Undersecretary
of Commerce for Intellectual Property Rights.

How can they be fake? The Chinese make all "American Products" I use!

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:31:28 +0000, Larry wrote:

John H. wrote in
:

but the Battle Hymn of the Republic *was* religious, after all.

More Masonic than religious....actually.
http://www.masonmusic.org/uslodge.html
They play it a lot....

Larry

I thought of Christ as a religious, as opposed to Masonic, symbol.
--
John H

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

On Dec 20, 3:39�pm, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:31:28 +0000, Larry wrote:
John H. wrote in
:

but the Battle Hymn of the Republic *was* religious, after all.

More Masonic than religious....actually.
http://www.masonmusic.org/uslodge.html
They play it a lot....

Larry

I thought of Christ as a religious, as opposed to Masonic, symbol.
--
John H

The two are more entwined than you might imagine.

Masons often claim to be the philosophical descendants of the Knights
Templar. During the Crusades, the Templars literally guarded the
Temple in Jerusalem, and were additionally responsible for the safety
of pilgrims and, believe it or not, banking. People who wanted to
travel from Europe to Jerusalem on pilgrimage were often reluctant to
carry large sums of money on their person en route. There were too
many opportunities to be waylaid by bandits, etc. So if the Herring
family wanted to travel from Paris to Jerusalem, for example, you
could go to the local office of the Templars and desposit, let's say,
a chest of 2000 gold coins. You would be given a receipt and you would
carry that with you to the Holy Land. Upon arrival in Jerusalem, you
would turn the receipt into the Templars and receive 2000 gold from
the Templars depository there, less of course a "carrying charge" of
perhaps 20 percent. Between the interest charged for banking services
and the number of people who simply died or were murdered along the
road to Jerusalem and never showed up to collect anything, the
Templars eventually got so rich that they were loaning money to
European kings.

Anyway, while hanging around Jerusalem and guarding the temple the
Knights Templar became aware of an entire school of Christianity that
had been fairly well stamped out in Europe. Gnosticism. Gnosticism was
one of two predominate forms of Christianity in the first couple of
centuries AD. Sometime around the year 300 or so, the 20-30 Christian
"gospels" were examined by a committee and four were deemed worthy to
be included in an official collection of religious documents that
would thereafter be called The Bible. None of the gnostic texts were
included, and before long gnostic groups were being
persecuted as "heretics" by the othodox church. Several attempts were
made to locate and burn every copy of the gnostic gospels, but there
were successful attempts made to hide some of them away. (see "The
Dead Sea Scrolls" as one example). Some of the gnostic texts were
found in Jerusalem during the Crusades.

Many of the Knights Templar adopted gnostic Christianity, and some of
the Masonic traditions were supposedly inspired by gnostic literature.

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:15:38 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Dec 20, 3:39?pm, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:31:28 +0000, Larry wrote:
John H. wrote in
:

but the Battle Hymn of the Republic *was* religious, after all.

More Masonic than religious....actually.
http://www.masonmusic.org/uslodge.html
They play it a lot....

Larry

I thought of Christ as a religious, as opposed to Masonic, symbol.
--
John H

The two are more entwined than you might imagine.

Masons often claim to be the philosophical descendants of the Knights
Templar.

The only connection between the Knights Templar and Freemasonry is
with the Order of DeMolay which is a youth organization named after
Jacques DeMolay. It is a mentoring organization that the development
of civic awareness, leadership skills and personal responsibility.

There is a charitable organization outside the structure of
Freemasonry that is named The United Religious, Military and Masonic
Orders of the Temple and of St John of Jerusalem, Palestine, Rhodes
and Malta which is sometimes called the Masonic Knights Templar, but
has no direct connection to Freemasonry other than the fact that the
members are all Master Masons.

There are only three degrees - Entered Apprentice. Fellow Craft and
Master Mason. Other "degrees" are declared, or to put it another way,
awarded depending on the Master Mason's involvement in the charitable
organization like the various Shrines or the Masonic Knights.

None of the Free Mason rituals are based on the rituals or theology of
the Knights Templar.

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

On Dec 20, 7:09�pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:15:38 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould





wrote:
On Dec 20, 3:39?pm, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:31:28 +0000, Larry wrote:
John H. wrote in
:

but the Battle Hymn of the Republic *was* religious, after all.

More Masonic than religious....actually.
http://www.masonmusic.org/uslodge.html
They play it a lot....

Larry

I thought of Christ as a religious, as opposed to Masonic, symbol.
--
John H

The two are more entwined than you might imagine.

Masons often claim to be the philosophical descendants of the Knights
Templar.

The only connection between the Knights Templar and Freemasonry is
with the Order of DeMolay which is a youth organization named after
Jacques DeMolay. It is a mentoring organization that the development
of civic awareness, leadership skills and personal responsibility.

There is a charitable organization outside the structure of
Freemasonry that is named The United Religious, Military and Masonic
Orders of the Temple and of St John of Jerusalem, Palestine, Rhodes
and Malta which is sometimes called the Masonic Knights Templar, but
has no direct connection to Freemasonry other than the fact that the
members are all Master Masons.

There are only three degrees - Entered Apprentice. Fellow Craft and
Master Mason. �Other "degrees" are declared, or to put it another way,
awarded depending on the Master Mason's involvement in the charitable
organization like the various Shrines or the Masonic Knights.

None of the Free Mason rituals are based on the rituals or theology of
the Knights Templar.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

From Wiki:

Despite Freemasonry's general disclaimer that no one Masonic
organization claims a direct heritage to the medieval Knights Templar,
certain degrees and orders are obviously patterned after the medieval
Order. These are best described as "commemorative orders" or degrees.
Nevertheless, in spite of the fraternity's official disclaimers, some
Masons, non-Masons and even anti-Masons insist that certain Masonic
rites or degrees originally had direct Templar influence.

American Masonic youth organizations such as the Order of DeMolay for
young men are named after the last Grand Master Templar Jacques de
Molay who was executed in the final suppression of the Templar order
in the early 1300s.
The Knight of Rose-Croix Degree in the "Ancient Accepted Scottish
Rite", and honorary Orders like the Royal Order of Scotland are
interpreted as evidence of a historical Templar-Masonic connection,
though there is no factual basis for this belief.
Legends in certain degrees pertain to the involvement of Knights Under
the command of Sir John De Bermingham, First and Last Earl of Louth
aiding the excommunicated 14th Century Scottish King Robert the Bruce
at the Battle of Bannockburn; however this remains a point of debate.
Lack of documentation on behalf of the medieval Knights themselves,
and battle memoirs usually written years if not decades after the
actual engagement, have left much room for speculation. This story is
the basis for the degrees in the Royal Order of Scotland an
invitational Masonic honorary organization.
Templar connections have also been suggested through the Earls of
Rosslyn (St. Clair, or Sinclair) a family with well documented
connections with Scottish Freemasonry, one being a Grand Master of the
Grand Lodge of Scotland.
Many other old and new organizations are called "Knights Templar".
However, organizations like the Order of the Solar Temple, Militi
Templi Scotia,or the Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of
Jerusalem are in no way related to Masonic Knights Templar, and share
no relationship in either history, hierarchy, nor ritual.

*********

Like much pertaining to various systems of belief and ritual, few
things are reducible to absolutes and discussion continues, and
continues, and continues........ :-)

"Some Masons claim a link to the Knights Templar", but there is no
question that those Masons *could be* wrong.

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

On Dec 20, 8:15Â*pm, Chuck Gould wrote:
On Dec 20, 3:39�pm, John H. wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:31:28 +0000, Larry wrote:
John H. wrote in
:

but the Battle Hymn of the Republic *was* religious, after all.

More Masonic than religious....actually.
http://www.masonmusic.org/uslodge.html
They play it a lot....

Larry

I thought of Christ as a religious, as opposed to Masonic, symbol.
--
John H

The two are more entwined than you might imagine.

Masons often claim to be the philosophical descendants of the Knights
Templar. During the Crusades, the Templars literally guarded the
Temple in Jerusalem, and were additionally responsible for the safety
of pilgrims and, believe it or not, banking. People who wanted to
travel from Europe to Jerusalem on pilgrimage were often reluctant to
carry large sums of money on their person en route. There were too
many Â*opportunities to be waylaid by bandits, etc. So if the Herring
family wanted to travel from Paris to Jerusalem, for example, you
could go to the local office of the Templars and desposit, let's say,
a chest of 2000 gold coins. You would be given a receipt and you would
carry that with you to the Holy Land. Upon arrival in Jerusalem, you
would turn the receipt into the Templars and receive 2000 gold from
the Templars depository there, less of course a "carrying charge" of
perhaps 20 percent. Between the interest charged for banking services
and the number of people who simply died or were murdered along the
road to Jerusalem and never showed up to collect anything, the
Templars eventually got so rich that they were loaning money to
European kings.

Anyway, while hanging around Jerusalem and guarding the temple the
Knights Templar became aware of an entire school of Christianity that
had been fairly well stamped out in Europe. Gnosticism. Gnosticism was
one of two predominate forms of Christianity in the first couple of
centuries AD. Sometime around the year 300 or so, the 20-30 Christian
"gospels" were examined by a committee and four were deemed worthy to
be included in an official collection of religious documents that
would thereafter be called The Bible. None of the gnostic texts were
included, and before long gnostic groups were being
persecuted as "heretics" by the othodox church. Several attempts were
made to locate and burn every copy of the gnostic gospels, but there
were successful attempts made to hide some of them away. (see "The
Dead Sea Scrolls" as one example). Some of the gnostic texts were
found in Jerusalem during the Crusades.

Many of the Knights Templar adopted gnostic Christianity, and some of
the Masonic traditions were supposedly inspired by gnostic literature.

Hmmm.....


I always thought they traced their roots back to the master builder of
Solomans Temple, by a guy named Huram (Hiram) [1 kings chapt. 5-7]

Where he supposedly got the name 'Hiram Abiff' I don't have a clue.
And actually the biblical acct of "Hiram" is a bit confusing. King
Hiram of Tyre, that sent Solomon the materials for the temple? or
Hiram the master builder who was from Tyre and was the son of a widow?

Now I don't really know but, When Julia Howe was visiting a Union army
camp, and was inspired to write the words to the Battle Hymn of the
Republic, I sincerely doubt if Freemasonry was really on her mind.

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

John H. wrote in
:

I thought of Christ as a religious, as opposed to Masonic, symbol.


Actually Christ is the last in a long line of Astrological Symbols that
began with the Egyptian sun god, Horus, 3000 BC. All the dates of all of
them are related to the Zodiac. Born (again) DEC 25th, 3 days after the
winter solstice when the sun (son) can be detected to move 1 degree
Northward in its battle with "evil" that drove it South for the winter.
They were all crucified just in time for the Spring Equinox (Easter) when
the sun (son) wins over "the darkness" as the days are now longer than
the nights. They were buried for 3 days, then resurrected into "Heaven",
where the Zodiacals live.

Next time you see a Christian with a fish on the back of his car, ask him
what it means. JC was the sun god in the Zodiacal age of Pisces, the two
fish. He will "reign" until the next Zodiacal age, the Age of Aquarius,
the Waterbearer who brings us the spring rains every year.

http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/...s/zodiac_clock
..gif
It's hard to find a good Zodiac on the net. They are usually highly
stylized, for religious reasons, and don't show you a good clock like
this one. Notice the first (beginning) is Virgo, The Virgin. All the
Sun gods were born of virgins. There's a whole list of them between
Horus and Jesus across the planet's northern hemisphere, of course. The
solar year is one trip around the clock in the clockwise direction. The
ages, however, go BACKWARDS. Notice the time of Jesus occurs at the
beginning of Pisces. Zodiacal Ages last about 2250 years, so JC has a
ways to go, beyond our lifetimes, so we won't be here to see what
happens, "at the end of the age", so the clerics don't have to explain to
us why nothing happens for another hundred years.

This is a great time of year to see the Astrological birth of these sun
gods. On Dec 22, the "Three Kings" follow the "Star in the East" and
point to the Son...er, ah, SUN, there, that's better. You can see this
wonderful even EVERY Christmas eve for yourself if you haul your ass out
of bed a little before the sunrise that blots out the stars. The "Three
Kings" are the belt of the constellation Orion that's easier to see at
midnight directly over your head all winter. Orion, the warrior:
http://www.physics.csbsju.edu/astro/...es/orion_l.gif
has a belt of 3 stars across his waist. These are the "Three Kings". In
mid-December, if you look at the "Three Kings" upright like this picture,
and line them up in your mind from right to left, they point to Sirius,
the "Star In The East", at sunrise (or all night if you want a better
look). Sirius is the brightest star in the sky by a wide margin....a
marker in the sky.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2188/...8cb7917a_o.jpg
....and here it all lines up on Dec 22, the Winter Solstice, which gave
the ancients a point of reference so they could detect the 1 degree
northern movement of the sun, completely ignoring the reason why, on Dec
25th when all the sun gods were born of Virgos whos name, like the
Zodiacal sign for Virgo, all began with M....no coincidence, either.

http://www.icstars.com/CDO/photos/CD...n_11_10_04.jpg
Here's an actual photo on Dec 22nd from some amateur astronomer's nice-
looking observatory. Best picture of it that's real I've seen. Now you
can sleep in on Dec 22, WHICH IS TOMORROW MORNING!

No matter what your religious persuasion, you should really see the movie
"Zeitgeist", which gives a great explanation of all this Zodiacal
nonsense as one chapter of the larger movie about elite humans having
control over "lesser" humans.....until those humans get fed up and
something really bloody happens, over and over, in history.

The "Cross", that's so important is the Zodiacal Cross, like you see
behind Jesus he
http://z.about.com/d/gaylife/1/0/v/8/jesus.JPG
All the old likenesses of what they think he might have looked like in
their mind's eye, have Zodiac crosses behind him because the Sun...er,
ah, Son...is the center of the Zodiac. The cross part depicts the two
Equinoxes and Solstices as the sun travels through the 12 Zodiacal
constellations in a year, whos 12 months is also no coincidence. For a
long time, Church crosses had zodiacal rings and looked like this
zodiacal measuring instrument:
http://www.crichtonmiller.com/Copy%2...s%20measuring%
20Draconis.jpg
but I suspect too many people were seeing a resemblance in the last
hundred or so years, so they dumped the Zodiac Ring to reduce the
embarrassing questions about it.

Part 1 of Zeitgeist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeZB2EsPqGE
shows you this information all in one place in 3 youtube parts.

The movie is fascinating....

Larry
--
QUOTE OF THE MONTH:
"I have been to several major Chinese cities and have seen first hand
shops crammed with obviously fake American products." - Jon Dudas,
Undersecretary of Commerce for Intellectual Property Rights.

How can they be fake? The Chinese make all "American Products" I use!

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

Chuck Gould wrote in news:f42da1fc-950c-482b-
:


"Some Masons claim a link to the Knights Templar", but there is no
question that those Masons *could be* wrong.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...22488652468125
Here's an excellent Templar/Freemason/Lightbringers video from England.


Larry
--
QUOTE OF THE MONTH:
"I have been to several major Chinese cities and have seen first hand shops
crammed with obviously fake American products." - Jon Dudas, Undersecretary
of Commerce for Intellectual Property Rights.

How can they be fake? The Chinese make all "American Products" I use!

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:57:47 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Dec 20, 7:09?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:15:38 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould





wrote:
On Dec 20, 3:39?pm, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:31:28 +0000, Larry wrote:
John H. wrote in
:

but the Battle Hymn of the Republic *was* religious, after all.

More Masonic than religious....actually.
http://www.masonmusic.org/uslodge.html
They play it a lot....

Larry

I thought of Christ as a religious, as opposed to Masonic, symbol.
--
John H

The two are more entwined than you might imagine.

Masons often claim to be the philosophical descendants of the Knights
Templar.

The only connection between the Knights Templar and Freemasonry is
with the Order of DeMolay which is a youth organization named after
Jacques DeMolay. It is a mentoring organization that the development
of civic awareness, leadership skills and personal responsibility.

There is a charitable organization outside the structure of
Freemasonry that is named The United Religious, Military and Masonic
Orders of the Temple and of St John of Jerusalem, Palestine, Rhodes
and Malta which is sometimes called the Masonic Knights Templar, but
has no direct connection to Freemasonry other than the fact that the
members are all Master Masons.

There are only three degrees - Entered Apprentice. Fellow Craft and
Master Mason. ?Other "degrees" are declared, or to put it another way,
awarded depending on the Master Mason's involvement in the charitable
organization like the various Shrines or the Masonic Knights.

None of the Free Mason rituals are based on the rituals or theology of
the Knights Templar.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

From Wiki:

Despite Freemasonry's general disclaimer that no one Masonic
organization claims a direct heritage to the medieval Knights Templar,
certain degrees and orders are obviously patterned after the medieval
Order. These are best described as "commemorative orders" or degrees.
Nevertheless, in spite of the fraternity's official disclaimers, some
Masons, non-Masons and even anti-Masons insist that certain Masonic
rites or degrees originally had direct Templar influence.

And what exactly did I say? There are only three degrees in
Freemasonry - count 'em, three. Anything beyond Master Mason is
strictly commerative or social awards that have nothing to do with
Masonic degrees.

The base ritual in all lodges is exactly the same. The officers,
symbols, words, signs and signals, opening and closing ritual, pieces
of note are exactly the same. The altar is exactly the same. What is
placed on the altar is exactly the same in exaclty the same place
facing in the same direction. There are minor differences sometimes
by Grand Lodge, regional or even local, but the base ritual and ranks
of officers of the Lodge are set in stone - so to speak.

The differences involve things like meeting times or commerative
formatting but even there, it follows the same order. An example of a
"difference" between lodges would be the local lodge here in Woodstock
which is called a Moon Lodge - lodge is held on the night of a full
moon unless it's a regular Sunday in which case it is held Saturday
the night before the full moon or if Sunday is a religious holiday
(like Easter Sunday or Christmas) the day after. (Interesting note:
You can count the number of moon lodges in the US on one hand and most
of them are out west - the Woodstock lodge is the only one in New
England). The lodge up in Southbridge is a Blue Lodge - meaning it is
one of the original chartered lodges by the Grand Lodge of
Massachuetts and has no numeric designation.

The whole base ritual of all Masonic ritual is the "story" of Hiriam
Abif and the building of the Temple of Solomon. Most of it is made up
history, but it sounds good. There are certainly magical and mystical
elements to it, but what fraternity doesn't have similar features.

It has nothing to do with Knights Templar other than what I stated and
those Orders do not have anything in common with base level
Freemasonry.

American Masonic youth organizations such as the Order of DeMolay for
young men are named after the last Grand Master Templar Jacques de
Molay who was executed in the final suppression of the Templar order
in the early 1300s.

~~ snip ~~

Many other old and new organizations are called "Knights Templar".
However, organizations like the Order of the Solar Temple, Militi
Templi Scotia,or the Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of
Jerusalem are in no way related to Masonic Knights Templar, and share
no relationship in either history, hierarchy, nor ritual.

Nothing I said contradicts this - these are commerative or honorary or
associative "degrees" and have nothing to do with Masonry other than a
casual relationship of having to be a Third Degree Master Mason to
participate. They bear no relationship to where the power of Masonry
lies which is with the local lodge.

In Freemasonry, there are no higher degrees than Master Mason.

Like much pertaining to various systems of belief and ritual, few
things are reducible to absolutes and discussion continues, and
continues, and continues........ :-)

"Some Masons claim a link to the Knights Templar", but there is no
question that those Masons *could be* wrong.

I would suggest you actualy talk to a Mason who has spent some time in
lodges and as an officer. I might also suggest that you stop reading
DaVinci Code.

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

Larry wrote:
John H. wrote in
:

I thought of Christ as a religious, as opposed to Masonic, symbol.


Actually Christ is the last in a long line of Astrological Symbols that
began with the Egyptian sun god, Horus, 3000 BC. All the dates of all of
them are related to the Zodiac. Born (again) DEC 25th, 3 days after the
winter solstice when the sun (son) can be detected to move 1 degree
Northward in its battle with "evil" that drove it South for the winter.
They were all crucified just in time for the Spring Equinox (Easter) when
the sun (son) wins over "the darkness" as the days are now longer than
the nights. They were buried for 3 days, then resurrected into "Heaven",
where the Zodiacals live.

Next time you see a Christian with a fish on the back of his car, ask him
what it means. JC was the sun god in the Zodiacal age of Pisces, the two
fish. He will "reign" until the next Zodiacal age, the Age of Aquarius,
the Waterbearer who brings us the spring rains every year.

http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/...s/zodiac_clock
.gif
It's hard to find a good Zodiac on the net. They are usually highly
stylized, for religious reasons, and don't show you a good clock like
this one. Notice the first (beginning) is Virgo, The Virgin. All the
Sun gods were born of virgins. There's a whole list of them between
Horus and Jesus across the planet's northern hemisphere, of course. The
solar year is one trip around the clock in the clockwise direction. The
ages, however, go BACKWARDS. Notice the time of Jesus occurs at the
beginning of Pisces. Zodiacal Ages last about 2250 years, so JC has a
ways to go, beyond our lifetimes, so we won't be here to see what
happens, "at the end of the age", so the clerics don't have to explain to
us why nothing happens for another hundred years.

This is a great time of year to see the Astrological birth of these sun
gods. On Dec 22, the "Three Kings" follow the "Star in the East" and
point to the Son...er, ah, SUN, there, that's better. You can see this
wonderful even EVERY Christmas eve for yourself if you haul your ass out
of bed a little before the sunrise that blots out the stars. The "Three
Kings" are the belt of the constellation Orion that's easier to see at
midnight directly over your head all winter. Orion, the warrior:
http://www.physics.csbsju.edu/astro/...es/orion_l.gif
has a belt of 3 stars across his waist. These are the "Three Kings". In
mid-December, if you look at the "Three Kings" upright like this picture,
and line them up in your mind from right to left, they point to Sirius,
the "Star In The East", at sunrise (or all night if you want a better
look). Sirius is the brightest star in the sky by a wide margin....a
marker in the sky.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2188/...8cb7917a_o.jpg
...and here it all lines up on Dec 22, the Winter Solstice, which gave
the ancients a point of reference so they could detect the 1 degree
northern movement of the sun, completely ignoring the reason why, on Dec
25th when all the sun gods were born of Virgos whos name, like the
Zodiacal sign for Virgo, all began with M....no coincidence, either.

http://www.icstars.com/CDO/photos/CD...n_11_10_04.jpg
Here's an actual photo on Dec 22nd from some amateur astronomer's nice-
looking observatory. Best picture of it that's real I've seen. Now you
can sleep in on Dec 22, WHICH IS TOMORROW MORNING!

No matter what your religious persuasion, you should really see the movie
"Zeitgeist", which gives a great explanation of all this Zodiacal
nonsense as one chapter of the larger movie about elite humans having
control over "lesser" humans.....until those humans get fed up and
something really bloody happens, over and over, in history.

The "Cross", that's so important is the Zodiacal Cross, like you see
behind Jesus he
http://z.about.com/d/gaylife/1/0/v/8/jesus.JPG
All the old likenesses of what they think he might have looked like in
their mind's eye, have Zodiac crosses behind him because the Sun...er,
ah, Son...is the center of the Zodiac. The cross part depicts the two
Equinoxes and Solstices as the sun travels through the 12 Zodiacal
constellations in a year, whos 12 months is also no coincidence. For a
long time, Church crosses had zodiacal rings and looked like this
zodiacal measuring instrument:
http://www.crichtonmiller.com/Copy%2...s%20measuring%
20Draconis.jpg
but I suspect too many people were seeing a resemblance in the last
hundred or so years, so they dumped the Zodiac Ring to reduce the
embarrassing questions about it.

Part 1 of Zeitgeist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeZB2EsPqGE
shows you this information all in one place in 3 youtube parts.

The movie is fascinating....

Larry
--


Larry, why try to make a mountain out of a mole hill?

Here's a more simplified version on who Jesus is:

Matthew 16:13-16 (KJV)

13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his
disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some,
Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of
the living God.

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:15:38 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Dec 20, 3:39?pm, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:31:28 +0000, Larry wrote:
John H. wrote in
:

but the Battle Hymn of the Republic *was* religious, after all.

More Masonic than religious....actually.
http://www.masonmusic.org/uslodge.html
They play it a lot....

Larry

I thought of Christ as a religious, as opposed to Masonic, symbol.
--
John H

The two are more entwined than you might imagine.


As Christ and Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, Catholics, et al, are
entwined.
--
John H

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:59:51 -0800 (PST), Tim wrote:

On Dec 20, 8:15*pm, Chuck Gould wrote:
On Dec 20, 3:39?pm, John H. wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:31:28 +0000, Larry wrote:
John H. wrote in
:

but the Battle Hymn of the Republic *was* religious, after all.

More Masonic than religious....actually.
http://www.masonmusic.org/uslodge.html
They play it a lot....

Larry

I thought of Christ as a religious, as opposed to Masonic, symbol.
--
John H

The two are more entwined than you might imagine.

Masons often claim to be the philosophical descendants of the Knights
Templar. During the Crusades, the Templars literally guarded the
Temple in Jerusalem, and were additionally responsible for the safety
of pilgrims and, believe it or not, banking. People who wanted to
travel from Europe to Jerusalem on pilgrimage were often reluctant to
carry large sums of money on their person en route. There were too
many *opportunities to be waylaid by bandits, etc. So if the Herring
family wanted to travel from Paris to Jerusalem, for example, you
could go to the local office of the Templars and desposit, let's say,
a chest of 2000 gold coins. You would be given a receipt and you would
carry that with you to the Holy Land. Upon arrival in Jerusalem, you
would turn the receipt into the Templars and receive 2000 gold from
the Templars depository there, less of course a "carrying charge" of
perhaps 20 percent. Between the interest charged for banking services
and the number of people who simply died or were murdered along the
road to Jerusalem and never showed up to collect anything, the
Templars eventually got so rich that they were loaning money to
European kings.

Anyway, while hanging around Jerusalem and guarding the temple the
Knights Templar became aware of an entire school of Christianity that
had been fairly well stamped out in Europe. Gnosticism. Gnosticism was
one of two predominate forms of Christianity in the first couple of
centuries AD. Sometime around the year 300 or so, the 20-30 Christian
"gospels" were examined by a committee and four were deemed worthy to
be included in an official collection of religious documents that
would thereafter be called The Bible. None of the gnostic texts were
included, and before long gnostic groups were being
persecuted as "heretics" by the othodox church. Several attempts were
made to locate and burn every copy of the gnostic gospels, but there
were successful attempts made to hide some of them away. (see "The
Dead Sea Scrolls" as one example). Some of the gnostic texts were
found in Jerusalem during the Crusades.

Many of the Knights Templar adopted gnostic Christianity, and some of
the Masonic traditions were supposedly inspired by gnostic literature.

Hmmm.....


I always thought they traced their roots back to the master builder of
Solomans Temple, by a guy named Huram (Hiram) [1 kings chapt. 5-7]

Where he supposedly got the name 'Hiram Abiff' I don't have a clue.
And actually the biblical acct of "Hiram" is a bit confusing. King
Hiram of Tyre, that sent Solomon the materials for the temple? or
Hiram the master builder who was from Tyre and was the son of a widow?

Now I don't really know but, When Julia Howe was visiting a Union army
camp, and was inspired to write the words to the Battle Hymn of the
Republic, I sincerely doubt if Freemasonry was really on her mind.

Some rationality, at last.
--
John H

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

GOOD ONE !!!

"John H." wrote in message
...
...but the Battle Hymn of the Republic *was* religious, after all. This is
a beautiful rendition. If the pictures are bothersome, shut the monitor
off!

http://www.trdaniel.com/Battle%20Hymn/index.htm
--
John H

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:37:03 -0500, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:31:28 +0000, Larry penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

John H. wrote in
m:

but the Battle Hymn of the Republic *was* religious, after all.

More Masonic than religious....actually.
http://www.masonmusic.org/uslodge.html
They play it a lot....

I have attended Blue Lodges in most of the states East of the
Mississippi and I have NEVER heard "The Battle Hymn of the Republic"
played. FWIW, I have never heard it played in any appendant body,
either.

Yes, but wasn't the one posted a good rendition?
--
John H

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 11:00:00 -0500, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:51:21 -0500, John H. penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:37:03 -0500, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:31:28 +0000, Larry penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

John H. wrote in
m:

but the Battle Hymn of the Republic *was* religious, after all.

More Masonic than religious....actually.
http://www.masonmusic.org/uslodge.html
They play it a lot....

I have attended Blue Lodges in most of the states East of the
Mississippi and I have NEVER heard "The Battle Hymn of the Republic"
played. FWIW, I have never heard it played in any appendant body,
either.


Yes, but wasn't the one posted a good rendition?

I didn't listen and....

....well, I guess you reminded me that I have a project.

I had this really great idea to wire the deck and pipe Sirius from the
computer out there via the stereo amplifier for listening. Problem is
that now I don't have a neat way to "unplug" the stereo and use the PC
speakers. I'd have to punch the "go" button and then stand out in the
rain to listen....

I use a JVC receiver for my computer sound. I just plug into the
accessories jack on the back. The receiver is also a CD player, so it gets
used a lot. If I wanted to do what you're doing, I'd get a receiver with
outputs for two sets of speakers, which the one I've got doesn't have.

Here's a link to the same song by the same high school choirs showing the
kids doing the singing.

http://tinyurl.com/35plpm



--
John H

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

Tim wrote in news:e96f7861-68ca-49dc-a8a0-
:

Larry, why try to make a mountain out of a mole hill?

Here's a more simplified version on who Jesus is:

Matthew 16:13-16 (KJV)

13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his
disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some,
Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of
the living God.




If you want to find out the truth about any product.....do you REALLY
only read the company's website and believe everything its salesmen write
or say, or are you independent and free thinking enough to dare venture
out and find truth on your own?

How many times has the Bible been re-written to suit the salesmen's
agenda at the moment? KJV is, what, the 12th or 13th edition? It's
loaded with errors and guesses and outright fraud.

Larry
--
QUOTE OF THE MONTH:
"I have been to several major Chinese cities and have seen first hand
shops crammed with obviously fake American products." - Jon Dudas,
Undersecretary of Commerce for Intellectual Property Rights.

How can they be fake? The Chinese make all "American Products" I use!

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

Gene Kearns wrote in
:

Good and informative post, Larry.


Thank you. The Zeitgeist movie on YouTube free is a fascinating look at
our history and the future the elite have planned for us.

Larry
--
QUOTE OF THE MONTH:
"I have been to several major Chinese cities and have seen first hand shops
crammed with obviously fake American products." - Jon Dudas, Undersecretary
of Commerce for Intellectual Property Rights.

How can they be fake? The Chinese make all "American Products" I use!

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

Larry wrote:
Tim wrote in news:e96f7861-68ca-49dc-a8a0-
:

Larry, why try to make a mountain out of a mole hill?

Here's a more simplified version on who Jesus is:

Matthew 16:13-16 (KJV)

13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his
disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some,
Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of
the living God.




If you want to find out the truth about any product.....do you REALLY
only read the company's website and believe everything its salesmen write
or say, or are you independent and free thinking enough to dare venture
out and find truth on your own?

How many times has the Bible been re-written to suit the salesmen's
agenda at the moment? KJV is, what, the 12th or 13th edition? It's
loaded with errors and guesses and outright fraud.

Larry
--


Thnak you Larry, and what concerning the Bible is it that I shouldn't
agree with ?

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

On Dec 21, 3:23�am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:57:47 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould





wrote:
On Dec 20, 7:09?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:15:38 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould

wrote:
On Dec 20, 3:39?pm, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:31:28 +0000, Larry wrote:
John H. wrote in
:

but the Battle Hymn of the Republic *was* religious, after all.

More Masonic than religious....actually.
http://www.masonmusic.org/uslodge.html
They play it a lot....

Larry

I thought of Christ as a religious, as opposed to Masonic, symbol.
--
John H

The two are more entwined than you might imagine.

Masons often claim to be the philosophical descendants of the Knights
Templar.

The only connection between the Knights Templar and Freemasonry is
with the Order of DeMolay which is a youth organization named after
Jacques DeMolay. It is a mentoring organization that the development
of civic awareness, leadership skills and personal responsibility.

There is a charitable organization outside the structure of
Freemasonry that is named The United Religious, Military and Masonic
Orders of the Temple and of St John of Jerusalem, Palestine, Rhodes
and Malta which is sometimes called the Masonic Knights Templar, but
has no direct connection to Freemasonry other than the fact that the
members are all Master Masons.

There are only three degrees - Entered Apprentice. Fellow Craft and
Master Mason. ?Other "degrees" are declared, or to put it another way,
awarded depending on the Master Mason's involvement in the charitable
organization like the various Shrines or the Masonic Knights.

None of the Free Mason rituals are based on the rituals or theology of
the Knights Templar.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

From Wiki:

Despite Freemasonry's general disclaimer that no one Masonic
organization claims a direct heritage to the medieval Knights Templar,
certain degrees and orders are obviously patterned after the medieval
Order. These are best described as "commemorative orders" or degrees.
Nevertheless, in spite of the fraternity's official disclaimers, some
Masons, non-Masons and even anti-Masons insist that certain Masonic
rites or degrees originally had direct Templar influence.

And what exactly did I say? �There are only three degrees in
Freemasonry - count 'em, three. �Anything beyond Master Mason is
strictly commerative or social awards that have nothing to do with
Masonic degrees.

The base ritual in all lodges is exactly the same. �The officers,
symbols, words, signs and signals, opening and closing ritual, pieces
of note are exactly the same. �The altar is exactly the same. What is
placed on the altar is exactly the same in exaclty the same place
facing in the same direction. �There are minor differences sometimes
by Grand Lodge, regional or even local, but the base ritual and ranks
of officers of the Lodge are set in stone - so to speak.

The differences involve things like meeting times or commerative
formatting but even there, it follows the same order. �An example of a
"difference" between lodges would be the local lodge here in Woodstock
which is called a Moon Lodge - lodge is held on the night of a full
moon unless it's a regular Sunday in which case it is held Saturday
the night before the full moon or if Sunday is a religious holiday
(like Easter Sunday or Christmas) the day after. (Interesting note:
You can count the number of moon lodges in the US on one hand and most
of them are out west - the Woodstock lodge is the only one in New
England). �The lodge up in Southbridge is a Blue Lodge - meaning it is
one of the original chartered lodges by the Grand Lodge of
Massachuetts and has no numeric designation.

The whole base ritual of all Masonic ritual is the "story" of Hiriam
Abif and the building of the Temple of Solomon. �Most of it is made up
history, but it sounds good. There are certainly magical and mystical
elements to it, but what fraternity doesn't have similar features.

It has nothing to do with Knights Templar other than what I stated and
those Orders do not have anything in common with base level
Freemasonry.



American Masonic youth organizations such as the Order of DeMolay for
young men are named after the last Grand Master Templar Jacques de
Molay who was executed in the final suppression of the Templar order
in the early 1300s.

~~ snip ~~

Many other old and new organizations are called "Knights Templar".
However, organizations like the Order of the Solar Temple, Militi
Templi Scotia,or the Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of
Jerusalem are in no way related to Masonic Knights Templar, and share
no relationship in either history, hierarchy, nor ritual.

Nothing I said contradicts this - these are commerative or honorary or
associative "degrees" and have nothing to do with Masonry other than a
casual relationship of having to be a Third Degree Master Mason to
participate. �They bear no relationship to where the power of Masonry
lies which is with the local lodge.

In Freemasonry, there are no higher degrees than Master Mason.

Like much pertaining to various systems of belief and ritual, few
things are reducible to absolutes and discussion continues, and
continues, and continues........ :-)

"Some Masons claim a link to the Knights Templar", but there is no
question that those Masons *could be* wrong.

I would suggest you actualy talk to a Mason who has spent some time in
lodges and as an officer. �I might also suggest that you stop reading
DaVinci Code.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Here's a Mason who disagrees with you:

http://www.robertlomas.com/Freemason/Origins.html

Apparently there are differences of opinion within the order.
And of course, there are a variety of "rites" with varying numbers of
degrees operating under the common Masonic umbrella.

Is trying to identify the "true Freemason" as difficult as figuring
out who is a "real" American, Republican, Democrat, or Christian? :-)

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:16:44 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Dec 21, 3:23?am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:57:47 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould





wrote:
On Dec 20, 7:09?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:15:38 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould

wrote:
On Dec 20, 3:39?pm, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:31:28 +0000, Larry wrote:
John H. wrote in
:

but the Battle Hymn of the Republic *was* religious, after all.

More Masonic than religious....actually.
http://www.masonmusic.org/uslodge.html
They play it a lot....

Larry

I thought of Christ as a religious, as opposed to Masonic, symbol.
--
John H

The two are more entwined than you might imagine.

Masons often claim to be the philosophical descendants of the Knights
Templar.

The only connection between the Knights Templar and Freemasonry is
with the Order of DeMolay which is a youth organization named after
Jacques DeMolay. It is a mentoring organization that the development
of civic awareness, leadership skills and personal responsibility.

There is a charitable organization outside the structure of
Freemasonry that is named The United Religious, Military and Masonic
Orders of the Temple and of St John of Jerusalem, Palestine, Rhodes
and Malta which is sometimes called the Masonic Knights Templar, but
has no direct connection to Freemasonry other than the fact that the
members are all Master Masons.

There are only three degrees - Entered Apprentice. Fellow Craft and
Master Mason. ?Other "degrees" are declared, or to put it another way,
awarded depending on the Master Mason's involvement in the charitable
organization like the various Shrines or the Masonic Knights.

None of the Free Mason rituals are based on the rituals or theology of
the Knights Templar.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

From Wiki:

Despite Freemasonry's general disclaimer that no one Masonic
organization claims a direct heritage to the medieval Knights Templar,
certain degrees and orders are obviously patterned after the medieval
Order. These are best described as "commemorative orders" or degrees.
Nevertheless, in spite of the fraternity's official disclaimers, some
Masons, non-Masons and even anti-Masons insist that certain Masonic
rites or degrees originally had direct Templar influence.

And what exactly did I say? ?There are only three degrees in
Freemasonry - count 'em, three. ?Anything beyond Master Mason is
strictly commerative or social awards that have nothing to do with
Masonic degrees.

The base ritual in all lodges is exactly the same. ?The officers,
symbols, words, signs and signals, opening and closing ritual, pieces
of note are exactly the same. ?The altar is exactly the same. What is
placed on the altar is exactly the same in exaclty the same place
facing in the same direction. ?There are minor differences sometimes
by Grand Lodge, regional or even local, but the base ritual and ranks
of officers of the Lodge are set in stone - so to speak.

The differences involve things like meeting times or commerative
formatting but even there, it follows the same order. ?An example of a
"difference" between lodges would be the local lodge here in Woodstock
which is called a Moon Lodge - lodge is held on the night of a full
moon unless it's a regular Sunday in which case it is held Saturday
the night before the full moon or if Sunday is a religious holiday
(like Easter Sunday or Christmas) the day after. (Interesting note:
You can count the number of moon lodges in the US on one hand and most
of them are out west - the Woodstock lodge is the only one in New
England). ?The lodge up in Southbridge is a Blue Lodge - meaning it is
one of the original chartered lodges by the Grand Lodge of
Massachuetts and has no numeric designation.

The whole base ritual of all Masonic ritual is the "story" of Hiriam
Abif and the building of the Temple of Solomon. ?Most of it is made up
history, but it sounds good. There are certainly magical and mystical
elements to it, but what fraternity doesn't have similar features.

It has nothing to do with Knights Templar other than what I stated and
those Orders do not have anything in common with base level
Freemasonry.



American Masonic youth organizations such as the Order of DeMolay for
young men are named after the last Grand Master Templar Jacques de
Molay who was executed in the final suppression of the Templar order
in the early 1300s.

~~ snip ~~

Many other old and new organizations are called "Knights Templar".
However, organizations like the Order of the Solar Temple, Militi
Templi Scotia,or the Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of
Jerusalem are in no way related to Masonic Knights Templar, and share
no relationship in either history, hierarchy, nor ritual.

Nothing I said contradicts this - these are commerative or honorary or
associative "degrees" and have nothing to do with Masonry other than a
casual relationship of having to be a Third Degree Master Mason to
participate. ?They bear no relationship to where the power of Masonry
lies which is with the local lodge.

In Freemasonry, there are no higher degrees than Master Mason.

Like much pertaining to various systems of belief and ritual, few
things are reducible to absolutes and discussion continues, and
continues, and continues........ :-)

"Some Masons claim a link to the Knights Templar", but there is no
question that those Masons *could be* wrong.

I would suggest you actualy talk to a Mason who has spent some time in
lodges and as an officer. ?I might also suggest that you stop reading
DaVinci Code.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Here's a Mason who disagrees with you:

http://www.robertlomas.com/Freemason/Origins.html

Apparently there are differences of opinion within the order.
And of course, there are a variety of "rites" with varying numbers of
degrees operating under the common Masonic umbrella.

Is trying to identify the "true Freemason" as difficult as figuring
out who is a "real" American, Republican, Democrat, or Christian? :-)

Chuck, just go listen to the music (without what you may consider the
bothersome religious symbols).

http://tinyurl.com/35plpm
--
John H

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote in
:

Nothing I said contradicts this - these are commerative or honorary or
associative "degrees" and have nothing to do with Masonry other than a
casual relationship of having to be a Third Degree Master Mason to
participate. They bear no relationship to where the power of Masonry
lies which is with the local lodge.

In Freemasonry, there are no higher degrees than Master Mason.


But, what about these levels ABOVE Master Mason?
http://crossbearer-brian.tripod.com/id193.htm
Notice the eye of HORUS, the Egyptian sun god 3000 BC at the top looking
down on it all. These men are NOT Christians. Wolves in sheep's
clothing, yes?

Their Phallus of Osirus is EXACTLY East of the point where President
Kennedy was shot...Take a look at Dealey Plaza from Google Earth.
Coincidence? EXACTLY East...in front of the temple...32 degrees N
latitude. Coincidence or a warning to those who follow?

Here, take a little tour of these wonderful, benevolent people:
http://freemasonrywatch.org/

Remember when "they" taught you in elementary school how to hold your
hand over your heart while pledging allegiance to the New World Order?
This is but one of the masonic signals. There's a youtube video showing
lots more from freemasonrywatch.org,

(For those who don't know the "Phallus of Osirus" is the Washington
Monument and recurs across the planet as they lay claim to the earth.)
Wanna see the newest edition?....The Israeli Supreme Court building the
Illuminati Rothchilds built. There's one right out front.


Larry
--
QUOTE OF THE MONTH:
"I have been to several major Chinese cities and have seen first hand
shops crammed with obviously fake American products." - Jon Dudas,
Undersecretary of Commerce for Intellectual Property Rights.

How can they be fake? The Chinese make all "American Products" I use!

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

On Dec 20, 11:10�pm, Larry wrote:
Chuck Gould wrote in news:f42da1fc-950c-482b-
:



"Some Masons claim a link to the Knights Templar", but there is no
question that those Masons *could be* wrong.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...22488652468125
Here's an excellent Templar/Freemason/Lightbringers video from England.

Larry

Interesting film. I think some of the allegations are pretty extreme
and perhaps totally unfounded, but as far as propaganda pieces go it
was
cleverly orchestrated.

The timeline of events outlined inspired me to consider our
collective, public attitude toward political revolutions. The film
purports that nearly all political revolutions in the western world
have Masonic connections.
Our attitude has certainly changed. While only a minority of New
England colonists actively supported the American Revolution at the
time (most were apathetic, and too busy trying to farm to really care
one way or the other), we look back at those events as once of the
most glorious achievements in the last couple of thousand years. It is
a well established fact that most of the founding fathers were
Freemasons.

From our modern perspective, most folks are a little more dubious
about the French revolution that occured soon after. Only about 80
years after the US was founded we had our own internal revolution, and
certainly among the side that prevailed in the ensuing military
conflict there was no sympathy at all for the idea of political
revolution.

Ever since the beginning of the 20th Century we tend to disapprove of
political revolts. There have been some exceptions, but as a rule we
now think of revolution as a negative thing- but according to the
filmmaker the "socialist" Freemasons have been at the root of most of
them.

I fact checked the claim made about Harry Truman. There are scores of
references confirming that when he was VP and before the US became
involved in WWII he said that if if looked like Germany was going to
beat Russia we should send military supplies to the Russians, and that
if it looked like Russia was going to beat Germany we should instead
aid the Nazis. Truman's rationale: "we need to perpetuate the war so
they will each kill off as many as possible." Changes my opinion of
Truman, at least a little bit, even if the film failed to change my
general opinion of Freemasonry.

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

On Dec 21, 10:23�am, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:16:44 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould





wrote:
On Dec 21, 3:23?am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:57:47 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould

wrote:
On Dec 20, 7:09?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:15:38 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould

wrote:
On Dec 20, 3:39?pm, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:31:28 +0000, Larry wrote:
John H. wrote in
:

but the Battle Hymn of the Republic *was* religious, after all..

More Masonic than religious....actually.
http://www.masonmusic.org/uslodge.html
They play it a lot....

Larry

I thought of Christ as a religious, as opposed to Masonic, symbol..
--
John H

The two are more entwined than you might imagine.

Masons often claim to be the philosophical descendants of the Knights
Templar.

The only connection between the Knights Templar and Freemasonry is
with the Order of DeMolay which is a youth organization named after
Jacques DeMolay. It is a mentoring organization that the development
of civic awareness, leadership skills and personal responsibility.

There is a charitable organization outside the structure of
Freemasonry that is named The United Religious, Military and Masonic
Orders of the Temple and of St John of Jerusalem, Palestine, Rhodes
and Malta which is sometimes called the Masonic Knights Templar, but
has no direct connection to Freemasonry other than the fact that the
members are all Master Masons.

There are only three degrees - Entered Apprentice. Fellow Craft and
Master Mason. ?Other "degrees" are declared, or to put it another way,
awarded depending on the Master Mason's involvement in the charitable
organization like the various Shrines or the Masonic Knights.

None of the Free Mason rituals are based on the rituals or theology of
the Knights Templar.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

From Wiki:

Despite Freemasonry's general disclaimer that no one Masonic
organization claims a direct heritage to the medieval Knights Templar,
certain degrees and orders are obviously patterned after the medieval
Order. These are best described as "commemorative orders" or degrees.
Nevertheless, in spite of the fraternity's official disclaimers, some
Masons, non-Masons and even anti-Masons insist that certain Masonic
rites or degrees originally had direct Templar influence.

And what exactly did I say? ?There are only three degrees in
Freemasonry - count 'em, three. ?Anything beyond Master Mason is
strictly commerative or social awards that have nothing to do with
Masonic degrees.

The base ritual in all lodges is exactly the same. ?The officers,
symbols, words, signs and signals, opening and closing ritual, pieces
of note are exactly the same. ?The altar is exactly the same. What is
placed on the altar is exactly the same in exaclty the same place
facing in the same direction. ?There are minor differences sometimes
by Grand Lodge, regional or even local, but the base ritual and ranks
of officers of the Lodge are set in stone - so to speak.

The differences involve things like meeting times or commerative
formatting but even there, it follows the same order. ?An example of a
"difference" between lodges would be the local lodge here in Woodstock
which is called a Moon Lodge - lodge is held on the night of a full
moon unless it's a regular Sunday in which case it is held Saturday
the night before the full moon or if Sunday is a religious holiday
(like Easter Sunday or Christmas) the day after. (Interesting note:
You can count the number of moon lodges in the US on one hand and most
of them are out west - the Woodstock lodge is the only one in New
England). ?The lodge up in Southbridge is a Blue Lodge - meaning it is
one of the original chartered lodges by the Grand Lodge of
Massachuetts and has no numeric designation.

The whole base ritual of all Masonic ritual is the "story" of Hiriam
Abif and the building of the Temple of Solomon. ?Most of it is made up
history, but it sounds good. There are certainly magical and mystical
elements to it, but what fraternity doesn't have similar features.

It has nothing to do with Knights Templar other than what I stated and
those Orders do not have anything in common with base level
Freemasonry.

American Masonic youth organizations such as the Order of DeMolay for
young men are named after the last Grand Master Templar Jacques de
Molay who was executed in the final suppression of the Templar order
in the early 1300s.

~~ snip ~~

Many other old and new organizations are called "Knights Templar".
However, organizations like the Order of the Solar Temple, Militi
Templi Scotia,or the Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of
Jerusalem are in no way related to Masonic Knights Templar, and share
no relationship in either history, hierarchy, nor ritual.

Nothing I said contradicts this - these are commerative or honorary or
associative "degrees" and have nothing to do with Masonry other than a
casual relationship of having to be a Third Degree Master Mason to
participate. ?They bear no relationship to where the power of Masonry
lies which is with the local lodge.

In Freemasonry, there are no higher degrees than Master Mason.

Like much pertaining to various systems of belief and ritual, few
things are reducible to absolutes and discussion continues, and
continues, and continues........ :-)

"Some Masons claim a link to the Knights Templar", but there is no
question that those Masons *could be* wrong.

I would suggest you actualy talk to a Mason who has spent some time in
lodges and as an officer. ?I might also suggest that you stop reading
DaVinci Code.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Here's a Mason who disagrees with you:

http://www.robertlomas.com/Freemason/Origins.html

Apparently there are differences of opinion within the order.
And of course, there are a variety of "rites" with varying numbers of
degrees operating under the common Masonic umbrella.

Is trying to identify the "true Freemason" as difficult as figuring
out who is a "real" American, Republican, Democrat, or Christian? �:-)

Chuck, just go listen to the music (without what you may consider the
bothersome religious symbols).

http://tinyurl.com/35plpm
--
John H- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I stated no objection to the religious symbols, and I did listen to
it.

But since you bring up the topic, why is The Good Shepherd red-headed,
with Nordic or Celtic features? JUST KIDDING (!)-- (I really don't
expect you to defend the image).

Merry Christmas, John.

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 11:14:12 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:

On Dec 21, 10:23?am, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:16:44 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould





wrote:
On Dec 21, 3:23?am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:57:47 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould

wrote:
On Dec 20, 7:09?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:15:38 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould

wrote:
On Dec 20, 3:39?pm, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:31:28 +0000, Larry wrote:
John H. wrote in
:

but the Battle Hymn of the Republic *was* religious, after all.

More Masonic than religious....actually.
http://www.masonmusic.org/uslodge.html
They play it a lot....

Larry

I thought of Christ as a religious, as opposed to Masonic, symbol.
--
John H

The two are more entwined than you might imagine.

Masons often claim to be the philosophical descendants of the Knights
Templar.

The only connection between the Knights Templar and Freemasonry is
with the Order of DeMolay which is a youth organization named after
Jacques DeMolay. It is a mentoring organization that the development
of civic awareness, leadership skills and personal responsibility.

There is a charitable organization outside the structure of
Freemasonry that is named The United Religious, Military and Masonic
Orders of the Temple and of St John of Jerusalem, Palestine, Rhodes
and Malta which is sometimes called the Masonic Knights Templar, but
has no direct connection to Freemasonry other than the fact that the
members are all Master Masons.

There are only three degrees - Entered Apprentice. Fellow Craft and
Master Mason. ?Other "degrees" are declared, or to put it another way,
awarded depending on the Master Mason's involvement in the charitable
organization like the various Shrines or the Masonic Knights.

None of the Free Mason rituals are based on the rituals or theology of
the Knights Templar.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

From Wiki:

Despite Freemasonry's general disclaimer that no one Masonic
organization claims a direct heritage to the medieval Knights Templar,
certain degrees and orders are obviously patterned after the medieval
Order. These are best described as "commemorative orders" or degrees.
Nevertheless, in spite of the fraternity's official disclaimers, some
Masons, non-Masons and even anti-Masons insist that certain Masonic
rites or degrees originally had direct Templar influence.

And what exactly did I say? ?There are only three degrees in
Freemasonry - count 'em, three. ?Anything beyond Master Mason is
strictly commerative or social awards that have nothing to do with
Masonic degrees.

The base ritual in all lodges is exactly the same. ?The officers,
symbols, words, signs and signals, opening and closing ritual, pieces
of note are exactly the same. ?The altar is exactly the same. What is
placed on the altar is exactly the same in exaclty the same place
facing in the same direction. ?There are minor differences sometimes
by Grand Lodge, regional or even local, but the base ritual and ranks
of officers of the Lodge are set in stone - so to speak.

The differences involve things like meeting times or commerative
formatting but even there, it follows the same order. ?An example of a
"difference" between lodges would be the local lodge here in Woodstock
which is called a Moon Lodge - lodge is held on the night of a full
moon unless it's a regular Sunday in which case it is held Saturday
the night before the full moon or if Sunday is a religious holiday
(like Easter Sunday or Christmas) the day after. (Interesting note:
You can count the number of moon lodges in the US on one hand and most
of them are out west - the Woodstock lodge is the only one in New
England). ?The lodge up in Southbridge is a Blue Lodge - meaning it is
one of the original chartered lodges by the Grand Lodge of
Massachuetts and has no numeric designation.

The whole base ritual of all Masonic ritual is the "story" of Hiriam
Abif and the building of the Temple of Solomon. ?Most of it is made up
history, but it sounds good. There are certainly magical and mystical
elements to it, but what fraternity doesn't have similar features.

It has nothing to do with Knights Templar other than what I stated and
those Orders do not have anything in common with base level
Freemasonry.

American Masonic youth organizations such as the Order of DeMolay for
young men are named after the last Grand Master Templar Jacques de
Molay who was executed in the final suppression of the Templar order
in the early 1300s.

~~ snip ~~

Many other old and new organizations are called "Knights Templar".
However, organizations like the Order of the Solar Temple, Militi
Templi Scotia,or the Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of
Jerusalem are in no way related to Masonic Knights Templar, and share
no relationship in either history, hierarchy, nor ritual.

Nothing I said contradicts this - these are commerative or honorary or
associative "degrees" and have nothing to do with Masonry other than a
casual relationship of having to be a Third Degree Master Mason to
participate. ?They bear no relationship to where the power of Masonry
lies which is with the local lodge.

In Freemasonry, there are no higher degrees than Master Mason.

Like much pertaining to various systems of belief and ritual, few
things are reducible to absolutes and discussion continues, and
continues, and continues........ :-)

"Some Masons claim a link to the Knights Templar", but there is no
question that those Masons *could be* wrong.

I would suggest you actualy talk to a Mason who has spent some time in
lodges and as an officer. ?I might also suggest that you stop reading
DaVinci Code.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Here's a Mason who disagrees with you:

http://www.robertlomas.com/Freemason/Origins.html

Apparently there are differences of opinion within the order.
And of course, there are a variety of "rites" with varying numbers of
degrees operating under the common Masonic umbrella.

Is trying to identify the "true Freemason" as difficult as figuring
out who is a "real" American, Republican, Democrat, or Christian? ?:-)

Chuck, just go listen to the music (without what you may consider the
bothersome religious symbols).

http://tinyurl.com/35plpm
--
John H- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I stated no objection to the religious symbols, and I did listen to
it.

But since you bring up the topic, why is The Good Shepherd red-headed,
with Nordic or Celtic features? JUST KIDDING (!)-- (I really don't
expect you to defend the image).

Merry Christmas, John.

Lighting.

Merry Christmas to you too! We start early tomorrow with the kids and
grandkids showing up for presents and dinner. Should be fun!
--
John H

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

Tim wrote in news:5006ea55-fbad-4731-8c81-
:

Thnak you Larry, and what concerning the Bible is it that I
shouldn't
agree with ?



You may agree with anything you like. My point was you should maybe
drop the Sheeple thing and investigate other ideas, not just act like
a sheep being led to the shears for more tithing....

Larry
--
QUOTE OF THE MONTH:
"I have been to several major Chinese cities and have seen first hand
shops crammed with obviously fake American products." - Jon Dudas,
Undersecretary of Commerce for Intellectual Property Rights.

How can they be fake? The Chinese make all "American Products" I
use!

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

Gene Kearns wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:13:36 -0800 (PST), Tim penned the following
well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:



Larry wrote:
Tim wrote in news:e96f7861-68ca-49dc-a8a0-
:

Larry, why try to make a mountain out of a mole hill?

Here's a more simplified version on who Jesus is:

Matthew 16:13-16 (KJV)

13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his
disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some,
Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of
the living God.




If you want to find out the truth about any product.....do you REALLY
only read the company's website and believe everything its salesmen write
or say, or are you independent and free thinking enough to dare venture
out and find truth on your own?

How many times has the Bible been re-written to suit the salesmen's
agenda at the moment? KJV is, what, the 12th or 13th edition? It's
loaded with errors and guesses and outright fraud.

Larry
--


Thank you Larry, and what concerning the Bible is it that I shouldn't
agree with ?

I think Larry is trying to get you to look at the source of the Bible.
Have you ever considered the testaments that *weren't* included in the
Bible?

The Catholics decided, in the 4th century, what you should believe
and.... by a show of hands .....decided what should be considered holy
and what should be considered anathema. If one was politically correct
one's motion(dogma) carried, if not it didn't. The true word was
created!

Fast forward through time and the protestants pared the Catholic Bible
down by a few more chapters and called it the KJV. Then *it* was the
only true word.

Isn't it interesting that various factions of Christians have come to
different conclusions about what is infallible and inerrant.

I first graduated from a college affiliated with a particular
Christian denomination. We were required to study religion and I found
studying both sides of a central point in time established by the
Councils of Nicea to be an amazing trip. This led me to the conclusion
that anybody that feels that they are Christian should do at least two
things:

1) Read the Bible.... ALL OF IT..... and

2) Study the history of the creation of Christianity....

Agree or disagree with what you like..... but you owe it to yourself
to be an informed consumer....

--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.

Homepage
http://pamandgene.idleplay.net/

Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats


---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 071123-0, 11/23/2007
Tested on: 12/21/2007 5:07:23 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com

Oh I know what you're saying Gene, I have read and I know what I
believe. Yes I've read the Apocrypha, the Gospel fo Judas, the Gospel
of Thomas, some other texts by Justin Martyr, and Polycarp, not
counting many commenteries, and historical backgrounds concerning many
events listed asnd surrounding scriptures etc. and have figured out
for myself what fits and what doesn't.

Fast forward through time and the protestants pared the Catholic Bible
down by a few more chapters and called it the KJV. Then *it* was the
only true word.


From what I gather, there were many translations of greek and hebrew
flowing around, and in a nutshell, James wanted a translation that
would be very well examined by scholars in both Hebrew and Greek, so
that there could be one agreeable text that could be suited for
everyone. I'll never say it's the ONLY nor the BEST trasnslation, but
for the most part is deemed acceptable, but over time,
languages,phrases, and word meanings do change. so.... yes there are
better ones available. I won't disagree with that, after all, just
one example is the King James word "Baptize" . It's a "made-to-fit"
word to provide that one should have some type of Christian
confirmation, and how you do it is your own business. . I could go on
some more but no need to bother...

Now concerning Larrys statement about "sheeple, and tithe..." ?

I really don't know what nor how to consider that statement, but if
anything else, I don't subscribe to seemingly every conspiracy theory
that can be drempt up. So I'm sitting here humorously pondering who
and/or what the real "sheeple" is... or are"

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

Tim wrote:

Gene Kearns wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:13:36 -0800 (PST), Tim penned the following
well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:


Larry wrote:
Tim wrote in news:e96f7861-68ca-49dc-a8a0-
:

Larry, why try to make a mountain out of a mole hill?

Here's a more simplified version on who Jesus is:

Matthew 16:13-16 (KJV)

13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his
disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some,
Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of
the living God.



If you want to find out the truth about any product.....do you REALLY
only read the company's website and believe everything its salesmen write
or say, or are you independent and free thinking enough to dare venture
out and find truth on your own?

How many times has the Bible been re-written to suit the salesmen's
agenda at the moment? KJV is, what, the 12th or 13th edition? It's
loaded with errors and guesses and outright fraud.

Larry
--

Thank you Larry, and what concerning the Bible is it that I shouldn't
agree with ?
I think Larry is trying to get you to look at the source of the Bible.
Have you ever considered the testaments that *weren't* included in the
Bible?

The Catholics decided, in the 4th century, what you should believe
and.... by a show of hands .....decided what should be considered holy
and what should be considered anathema. If one was politically correct
one's motion(dogma) carried, if not it didn't. The true word was
created!

Fast forward through time and the protestants pared the Catholic Bible
down by a few more chapters and called it the KJV. Then *it* was the
only true word.

Isn't it interesting that various factions of Christians have come to
different conclusions about what is infallible and inerrant.

I first graduated from a college affiliated with a particular
Christian denomination. We were required to study religion and I found
studying both sides of a central point in time established by the
Councils of Nicea to be an amazing trip. This led me to the conclusion
that anybody that feels that they are Christian should do at least two
things:

1) Read the Bible.... ALL OF IT..... and

2) Study the history of the creation of Christianity....

Agree or disagree with what you like..... but you owe it to yourself
to be an informed consumer....

--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.

Homepage
http://pamandgene.idleplay.net/

Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats


---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 071123-0, 11/23/2007
Tested on: 12/21/2007 5:07:23 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com

Oh I know what you're saying Gene, I have read and I know what I
believe. Yes I've read the Apocrypha, the Gospel fo Judas, the Gospel
of Thomas, some other texts by Justin Martyr, and Polycarp, not
counting many commenteries, and historical backgrounds concerning many
events listed asnd surrounding scriptures etc. and have figured out
for myself what fits and what doesn't.

Fast forward through time and the protestants pared the Catholic Bible
down by a few more chapters and called it the KJV. Then *it* was the
only true word.


From what I gather, there were many translations of greek and hebrew
flowing around, and in a nutshell, James wanted a translation that
would be very well examined by scholars in both Hebrew and Greek, so
that there could be one agreeable text that could be suited for
everyone. I'll never say it's the ONLY nor the BEST trasnslation, but
for the most part is deemed acceptable, but over time,
languages,phrases, and word meanings do change. so.... yes there are
better ones available. I won't disagree with that, after all, just
one example is the King James word "Baptize" . It's a "made-to-fit"
word to provide that one should have some type of Christian
confirmation, and how you do it is your own business. . I could go on
some more but no need to bother...

Now concerning Larrys statement about "sheeple, and tithe..." ?

I really don't know what nor how to consider that statement, but if
anything else, I don't subscribe to seemingly every conspiracy theory
that can be drempt up. So I'm sitting here humorously pondering who
and/or what the real "sheeple" is... or are"



All this fuss over a guy who was born Jewish, lived Jewish, and died
Jewish, who didn't preach to the pagans and didn't want to, and never
intended that a bunch of guys break off from Judaism and start a "new"
religion based upon a name he never had.

:}

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:21:21 -0500, HK wrote:

Tim wrote:

Gene Kearns wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:13:36 -0800 (PST), Tim penned the following
well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:


Larry wrote:
Tim wrote in news:e96f7861-68ca-49dc-a8a0-
:

Larry, why try to make a mountain out of a mole hill?

Here's a more simplified version on who Jesus is:

Matthew 16:13-16 (KJV)

13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his
disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some,
Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of
the living God.



If you want to find out the truth about any product.....do you REALLY
only read the company's website and believe everything its salesmen write
or say, or are you independent and free thinking enough to dare venture
out and find truth on your own?

How many times has the Bible been re-written to suit the salesmen's
agenda at the moment? KJV is, what, the 12th or 13th edition? It's
loaded with errors and guesses and outright fraud.

Larry
--

Thank you Larry, and what concerning the Bible is it that I shouldn't
agree with ?
I think Larry is trying to get you to look at the source of the Bible.
Have you ever considered the testaments that *weren't* included in the
Bible?

The Catholics decided, in the 4th century, what you should believe
and.... by a show of hands .....decided what should be considered holy
and what should be considered anathema. If one was politically correct
one's motion(dogma) carried, if not it didn't. The true word was
created!

Fast forward through time and the protestants pared the Catholic Bible
down by a few more chapters and called it the KJV. Then *it* was the
only true word.

Isn't it interesting that various factions of Christians have come to
different conclusions about what is infallible and inerrant.

I first graduated from a college affiliated with a particular
Christian denomination. We were required to study religion and I found
studying both sides of a central point in time established by the
Councils of Nicea to be an amazing trip. This led me to the conclusion
that anybody that feels that they are Christian should do at least two
things:

1) Read the Bible.... ALL OF IT..... and

2) Study the history of the creation of Christianity....

Agree or disagree with what you like..... but you owe it to yourself
to be an informed consumer....

--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.

Homepage
http://pamandgene.idleplay.net/

Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats


---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 071123-0, 11/23/2007
Tested on: 12/21/2007 5:07:23 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com

Oh I know what you're saying Gene, I have read and I know what I
believe. Yes I've read the Apocrypha, the Gospel fo Judas, the Gospel
of Thomas, some other texts by Justin Martyr, and Polycarp, not
counting many commenteries, and historical backgrounds concerning many
events listed asnd surrounding scriptures etc. and have figured out
for myself what fits and what doesn't.

Fast forward through time and the protestants pared the Catholic Bible
down by a few more chapters and called it the KJV. Then *it* was the
only true word.


From what I gather, there were many translations of greek and hebrew
flowing around, and in a nutshell, James wanted a translation that
would be very well examined by scholars in both Hebrew and Greek, so
that there could be one agreeable text that could be suited for
everyone. I'll never say it's the ONLY nor the BEST trasnslation, but
for the most part is deemed acceptable, but over time,
languages,phrases, and word meanings do change. so.... yes there are
better ones available. I won't disagree with that, after all, just
one example is the King James word "Baptize" . It's a "made-to-fit"
word to provide that one should have some type of Christian
confirmation, and how you do it is your own business. . I could go on
some more but no need to bother...

Now concerning Larrys statement about "sheeple, and tithe..." ?

I really don't know what nor how to consider that statement, but if
anything else, I don't subscribe to seemingly every conspiracy theory
that can be drempt up. So I'm sitting here humorously pondering who
and/or what the real "sheeple" is... or are"



All this fuss over a guy who was born Jewish, lived Jewish, and died
Jewish, who didn't preach to the pagans and didn't want to, and never
intended that a bunch of guys break off from Judaism and start a "new"
religion based upon a name he never had.

:}

Harry, you're just jealous that you're not quite as famous as he is...yet.
--
John H

*Have a Super Christmas and a Spectacular New Year!*

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

John H. wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:21:21 -0500, HK wrote:

Tim wrote:
Gene Kearns wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:13:36 -0800 (PST), Tim penned the following
well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

Larry wrote:
Tim wrote in news:e96f7861-68ca-49dc-a8a0-
:

Larry, why try to make a mountain out of a mole hill?

Here's a more simplified version on who Jesus is:

Matthew 16:13-16 (KJV)

13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his
disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some,
Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of
the living God.



If you want to find out the truth about any product.....do you REALLY
only read the company's website and believe everything its salesmen write
or say, or are you independent and free thinking enough to dare venture
out and find truth on your own?

How many times has the Bible been re-written to suit the salesmen's
agenda at the moment? KJV is, what, the 12th or 13th edition? It's
loaded with errors and guesses and outright fraud.

Larry
--
Thank you Larry, and what concerning the Bible is it that I shouldn't
agree with ?
I think Larry is trying to get you to look at the source of the Bible.
Have you ever considered the testaments that *weren't* included in the
Bible?

The Catholics decided, in the 4th century, what you should believe
and.... by a show of hands .....decided what should be considered holy
and what should be considered anathema. If one was politically correct
one's motion(dogma) carried, if not it didn't. The true word was
created!

Fast forward through time and the protestants pared the Catholic Bible
down by a few more chapters and called it the KJV. Then *it* was the
only true word.

Isn't it interesting that various factions of Christians have come to
different conclusions about what is infallible and inerrant.

I first graduated from a college affiliated with a particular
Christian denomination. We were required to study religion and I found
studying both sides of a central point in time established by the
Councils of Nicea to be an amazing trip. This led me to the conclusion
that anybody that feels that they are Christian should do at least two
things:

1) Read the Bible.... ALL OF IT..... and

2) Study the history of the creation of Christianity....

Agree or disagree with what you like..... but you owe it to yourself
to be an informed consumer....

--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.

Homepage
http://pamandgene.idleplay.net/

Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats


---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 071123-0, 11/23/2007
Tested on: 12/21/2007 5:07:23 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com
Oh I know what you're saying Gene, I have read and I know what I
believe. Yes I've read the Apocrypha, the Gospel fo Judas, the Gospel
of Thomas, some other texts by Justin Martyr, and Polycarp, not
counting many commenteries, and historical backgrounds concerning many
events listed asnd surrounding scriptures etc. and have figured out
for myself what fits and what doesn't.

Fast forward through time and the protestants pared the Catholic Bible
down by a few more chapters and called it the KJV. Then *it* was the
only true word.

From what I gather, there were many translations of greek and hebrew
flowing around, and in a nutshell, James wanted a translation that
would be very well examined by scholars in both Hebrew and Greek, so
that there could be one agreeable text that could be suited for
everyone. I'll never say it's the ONLY nor the BEST trasnslation, but
for the most part is deemed acceptable, but over time,
languages,phrases, and word meanings do change. so.... yes there are
better ones available. I won't disagree with that, after all, just
one example is the King James word "Baptize" . It's a "made-to-fit"
word to provide that one should have some type of Christian
confirmation, and how you do it is your own business. . I could go on
some more but no need to bother...

Now concerning Larrys statement about "sheeple, and tithe..." ?

I really don't know what nor how to consider that statement, but if
anything else, I don't subscribe to seemingly every conspiracy theory
that can be drempt up. So I'm sitting here humorously pondering who
and/or what the real "sheeple" is... or are"


All this fuss over a guy who was born Jewish, lived Jewish, and died
Jewish, who didn't preach to the pagans and didn't want to, and never
intended that a bunch of guys break off from Judaism and start a "new"
religion based upon a name he never had.

:}

Harry, you're just jealous that you're not quite as famous as he is...yet.
--
John H

*Have a Super Christmas and a Spectacular New Year!*


Maybe I could volunteer to be tied up on the cross at next year's parade
in that north Florida community. I could learn enough spoken Aramaic to
bless the crowd.

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

On Dec 21, 5:21*pm, HK wrote:
Tim wrote:

Gene Kearns wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:13:36 -0800 (PST), Tim penned the following
well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

Larry wrote:
Tim wrote in news:e96f7861-68ca-49dc-a8a0-
:

Larry, why try to make a mountain out of a mole hill?

Here's a more simplified version on who Jesus is:

Matthew 16:13-16 (KJV)

*13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his
disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

*14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some,
Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

*15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

*16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of
the living God.

If you want to find out the truth about any product.....do you REALLY
only read the company's website and believe everything its salesmen write
or say, or are you independent and free thinking enough to dare venture
out and find truth on your own?

How many times has the Bible been re-written to suit the salesmen's
agenda at the moment? *KJV is, what, the 12th or 13th edition? *It's
loaded with errors and guesses and outright fraud.

Larry
--

Thank you Larry, and what concerning the Bible is it that I shouldn't
agree with ?
I think Larry is trying to get you to look at the source of the Bible.
Have you ever considered the testaments that *weren't* included in the
Bible?

The Catholics decided, in the 4th century, what you should believe
and.... by a show of hands .....decided what should be considered holy
and what should be considered anathema. If one was politically correct
one's motion(dogma) carried, if not it didn't. The true word was
created!

Fast forward through time and the protestants pared the Catholic Bible
down by a few more chapters and called it the KJV. Then *it* was the
only true word.

Isn't it interesting that various factions of Christians have come to
different conclusions about what is infallible and inerrant.

I first graduated from a college affiliated with a particular
Christian denomination. We were required to study religion and I found
studying both sides of a central point in time established by the
Councils of Nicea to be an amazing trip. This led me to the conclusion
that anybody that feels that they are Christian should do at least two
things:

1) Read the Bible.... ALL OF IT..... and

2) Study the history of the creation of Christianity....

Agree or disagree with what you like..... but you owe it to yourself
to be an informed consumer....

--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.

Homepage
http://pamandgene.idleplay.net/

Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats

---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 071123-0, 11/23/2007
Tested on: 12/21/2007 5:07:23 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com

Oh I know what you're saying Gene, I have read and I know what I
believe. Yes I've read the Apocrypha, the Gospel fo Judas, the Gospel
of Thomas, *some other texts by Justin Martyr, and Polycarp, not
counting many commenteries, and historical backgrounds concerning many
events listed asnd surrounding scriptures etc. and have figured out
for myself what fits and what doesn't.

Fast forward through time and the protestants pared the Catholic Bible
down by a few more chapters and called it the KJV. Then *it* was the
only true word.

From what I gather, there were many translations of greek and hebrew
flowing around, and in a nutshell, James wanted a translation that
would be very well examined by scholars in both Hebrew and Greek, so
that there could be one agreeable text that could be suited for
everyone. *I'll never say it's the ONLY nor the BEST trasnslation, but
for the most part is deemed acceptable, but over time,
languages,phrases, and word meanings do change. so.... yes there are
better ones available. *I won't disagree with that, after all, just
one example is the King James word "Baptize" . It's a "made-to-fit"
word to provide that one should have some type of Christian
confirmation, and how you do it is your own business. . I could go on
some more but no need to bother...

Now concerning Larrys statement about "sheeple, and tithe..." ?

I really don't know what nor how *to consider that statement, but if
anything else, I don't subscribe to seemingly every conspiracy theory
that can be drempt up. So I'm sitting here humorously pondering who
and/or what the real "sheeple" is... or are"

All this fuss over a guy who was born Jewish, lived Jewish, and died
Jewish, who didn't preach to the pagans and didn't want to, and never
intended that a bunch of guys break off from Judaism and start a "new"
religion based upon a name he never had.

:}- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Such brilliant theology Harry!

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:57:51 -0500, HK wrote:

John H. wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:21:21 -0500, HK wrote:

Tim wrote:
Gene Kearns wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:13:36 -0800 (PST), Tim penned the following
well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

Larry wrote:
Tim wrote in news:e96f7861-68ca-49dc-a8a0-
:

Larry, why try to make a mountain out of a mole hill?

Here's a more simplified version on who Jesus is:

Matthew 16:13-16 (KJV)

13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his
disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some,
Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of
the living God.



If you want to find out the truth about any product.....do you REALLY
only read the company's website and believe everything its salesmen write
or say, or are you independent and free thinking enough to dare venture
out and find truth on your own?

How many times has the Bible been re-written to suit the salesmen's
agenda at the moment? KJV is, what, the 12th or 13th edition? It's
loaded with errors and guesses and outright fraud.

Larry
--
Thank you Larry, and what concerning the Bible is it that I shouldn't
agree with ?
I think Larry is trying to get you to look at the source of the Bible.
Have you ever considered the testaments that *weren't* included in the
Bible?

The Catholics decided, in the 4th century, what you should believe
and.... by a show of hands .....decided what should be considered holy
and what should be considered anathema. If one was politically correct
one's motion(dogma) carried, if not it didn't. The true word was
created!

Fast forward through time and the protestants pared the Catholic Bible
down by a few more chapters and called it the KJV. Then *it* was the
only true word.

Isn't it interesting that various factions of Christians have come to
different conclusions about what is infallible and inerrant.

I first graduated from a college affiliated with a particular
Christian denomination. We were required to study religion and I found
studying both sides of a central point in time established by the
Councils of Nicea to be an amazing trip. This led me to the conclusion
that anybody that feels that they are Christian should do at least two
things:

1) Read the Bible.... ALL OF IT..... and

2) Study the history of the creation of Christianity....

Agree or disagree with what you like..... but you owe it to yourself
to be an informed consumer....

--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.

Homepage
http://pamandgene.idleplay.net/

Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats


---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 071123-0, 11/23/2007
Tested on: 12/21/2007 5:07:23 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com
Oh I know what you're saying Gene, I have read and I know what I
believe. Yes I've read the Apocrypha, the Gospel fo Judas, the Gospel
of Thomas, some other texts by Justin Martyr, and Polycarp, not
counting many commenteries, and historical backgrounds concerning many
events listed asnd surrounding scriptures etc. and have figured out
for myself what fits and what doesn't.

Fast forward through time and the protestants pared the Catholic Bible
down by a few more chapters and called it the KJV. Then *it* was the
only true word.

From what I gather, there were many translations of greek and hebrew
flowing around, and in a nutshell, James wanted a translation that
would be very well examined by scholars in both Hebrew and Greek, so
that there could be one agreeable text that could be suited for
everyone. I'll never say it's the ONLY nor the BEST trasnslation, but
for the most part is deemed acceptable, but over time,
languages,phrases, and word meanings do change. so.... yes there are
better ones available. I won't disagree with that, after all, just
one example is the King James word "Baptize" . It's a "made-to-fit"
word to provide that one should have some type of Christian
confirmation, and how you do it is your own business. . I could go on
some more but no need to bother...

Now concerning Larrys statement about "sheeple, and tithe..." ?

I really don't know what nor how to consider that statement, but if
anything else, I don't subscribe to seemingly every conspiracy theory
that can be drempt up. So I'm sitting here humorously pondering who
and/or what the real "sheeple" is... or are"


All this fuss over a guy who was born Jewish, lived Jewish, and died
Jewish, who didn't preach to the pagans and didn't want to, and never
intended that a bunch of guys break off from Judaism and start a "new"
religion based upon a name he never had.

:}

Harry, you're just jealous that you're not quite as famous as he is...yet.
--
John H

*Have a Super Christmas and a Spectacular New Year!*


Maybe I could volunteer to be tied up on the cross at next year's parade
in that north Florida community. I could learn enough spoken Aramaic to
bless the crowd.

Harry, I'm sure you've done that already. If you were in a group where that
would get you some pat's on the back, you'd be telling us what your
loincloth was made of. Shoot, you'd be showing us pictures of the holes in
your palms, or at least a pair of owls.


--
John H

*Have a Super Christmas and a Spectacular New Year!*

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

Tim wrote:
On Dec 21, 5:21 pm, HK wrote:
Tim wrote:

Gene Kearns wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:13:36 -0800 (PST), Tim penned the following
well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:
Larry wrote:
Tim wrote in news:e96f7861-68ca-49dc-a8a0-
:
Larry, why try to make a mountain out of a mole hill?
Here's a more simplified version on who Jesus is:
Matthew 16:13-16 (KJV)
13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his
disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some,
Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of
the living God.
If you want to find out the truth about any product.....do you REALLY
only read the company's website and believe everything its salesmen write
or say, or are you independent and free thinking enough to dare venture
out and find truth on your own?
How many times has the Bible been re-written to suit the salesmen's
agenda at the moment? KJV is, what, the 12th or 13th edition? It's
loaded with errors and guesses and outright fraud.
Larry
--
Thank you Larry, and what concerning the Bible is it that I shouldn't
agree with ?
I think Larry is trying to get you to look at the source of the Bible.
Have you ever considered the testaments that *weren't* included in the
Bible?
The Catholics decided, in the 4th century, what you should believe
and.... by a show of hands .....decided what should be considered holy
and what should be considered anathema. If one was politically correct
one's motion(dogma) carried, if not it didn't. The true word was
created!
Fast forward through time and the protestants pared the Catholic Bible
down by a few more chapters and called it the KJV. Then *it* was the
only true word.
Isn't it interesting that various factions of Christians have come to
different conclusions about what is infallible and inerrant.
I first graduated from a college affiliated with a particular
Christian denomination. We were required to study religion and I found
studying both sides of a central point in time established by the
Councils of Nicea to be an amazing trip. This led me to the conclusion
that anybody that feels that they are Christian should do at least two
things:
1) Read the Bible.... ALL OF IT..... and
2) Study the history of the creation of Christianity....
Agree or disagree with what you like..... but you owe it to yourself
to be an informed consumer....
--
Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.
Homepage
http://pamandgene.idleplay.net/
Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats
---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 071123-0, 11/23/2007
Tested on: 12/21/2007 5:07:23 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com
Oh I know what you're saying Gene, I have read and I know what I
believe. Yes I've read the Apocrypha, the Gospel fo Judas, the Gospel
of Thomas, some other texts by Justin Martyr, and Polycarp, not
counting many commenteries, and historical backgrounds concerning many
events listed asnd surrounding scriptures etc. and have figured out
for myself what fits and what doesn't.
Fast forward through time and the protestants pared the Catholic Bible
down by a few more chapters and called it the KJV. Then *it* was the
only true word.
From what I gather, there were many translations of greek and hebrew
flowing around, and in a nutshell, James wanted a translation that
would be very well examined by scholars in both Hebrew and Greek, so
that there could be one agreeable text that could be suited for
everyone. I'll never say it's the ONLY nor the BEST trasnslation, but
for the most part is deemed acceptable, but over time,
languages,phrases, and word meanings do change. so.... yes there are
better ones available. I won't disagree with that, after all, just
one example is the King James word "Baptize" . It's a "made-to-fit"
word to provide that one should have some type of Christian
confirmation, and how you do it is your own business. . I could go on
some more but no need to bother...
Now concerning Larrys statement about "sheeple, and tithe..." ?
I really don't know what nor how to consider that statement, but if
anything else, I don't subscribe to seemingly every conspiracy theory
that can be drempt up. So I'm sitting here humorously pondering who
and/or what the real "sheeple" is... or are"
All this fuss over a guy who was born Jewish, lived Jewish, and died
Jewish, who didn't preach to the pagans and didn't want to, and never
intended that a bunch of guys break off from Judaism and start a "new"
religion based upon a name he never had.

:}- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Such brilliant theology Harry!


Thank you. It's certainly more reality based than what has come to pass
as the truth about the birth, life and death of the guy. Not that
reality and religion go hand in hand.

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

John H. wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:57:51 -0500, HK wrote:

John H. wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:21:21 -0500, HK wrote:

Tim wrote:
Gene Kearns wrote:
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:13:36 -0800 (PST), Tim penned the following
well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

Larry wrote:
Tim wrote in news:e96f7861-68ca-49dc-a8a0-
:

Larry, why try to make a mountain out of a mole hill?

Here's a more simplified version on who Jesus is:

Matthew 16:13-16 (KJV)

13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his
disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some,
Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of
the living God.



If you want to find out the truth about any product.....do you REALLY
only read the company's website and believe everything its salesmen write
or say, or are you independent and free thinking enough to dare venture
out and find truth on your own?

How many times has the Bible been re-written to suit the salesmen's
agenda at the moment? KJV is, what, the 12th or 13th edition? It's
loaded with errors and guesses and outright fraud.

Larry
--
Thank you Larry, and what concerning the Bible is it that I shouldn't
agree with ?
I think Larry is trying to get you to look at the source of the Bible.
Have you ever considered the testaments that *weren't* included in the
Bible?

The Catholics decided, in the 4th century, what you should believe
and.... by a show of hands .....decided what should be considered holy
and what should be considered anathema. If one was politically correct
one's motion(dogma) carried, if not it didn't. The true word was
created!

Fast forward through time and the protestants pared the Catholic Bible
down by a few more chapters and called it the KJV. Then *it* was the
only true word.

Isn't it interesting that various factions of Christians have come to
different conclusions about what is infallible and inerrant.

I first graduated from a college affiliated with a particular
Christian denomination. We were required to study religion and I found
studying both sides of a central point in time established by the
Councils of Nicea to be an amazing trip. This led me to the conclusion
that anybody that feels that they are Christian should do at least two
things:

1) Read the Bible.... ALL OF IT..... and

2) Study the history of the creation of Christianity....

Agree or disagree with what you like..... but you owe it to yourself
to be an informed consumer....

--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.

Homepage
http://pamandgene.idleplay.net/

Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats


---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 071123-0, 11/23/2007
Tested on: 12/21/2007 5:07:23 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com
Oh I know what you're saying Gene, I have read and I know what I
believe. Yes I've read the Apocrypha, the Gospel fo Judas, the Gospel
of Thomas, some other texts by Justin Martyr, and Polycarp, not
counting many commenteries, and historical backgrounds concerning many
events listed asnd surrounding scriptures etc. and have figured out
for myself what fits and what doesn't.

Fast forward through time and the protestants pared the Catholic Bible
down by a few more chapters and called it the KJV. Then *it* was the
only true word.

From what I gather, there were many translations of greek and hebrew
flowing around, and in a nutshell, James wanted a translation that
would be very well examined by scholars in both Hebrew and Greek, so
that there could be one agreeable text that could be suited for
everyone. I'll never say it's the ONLY nor the BEST trasnslation, but
for the most part is deemed acceptable, but over time,
languages,phrases, and word meanings do change. so.... yes there are
better ones available. I won't disagree with that, after all, just
one example is the King James word "Baptize" . It's a "made-to-fit"
word to provide that one should have some type of Christian
confirmation, and how you do it is your own business. . I could go on
some more but no need to bother...

Now concerning Larrys statement about "sheeple, and tithe..." ?

I really don't know what nor how to consider that statement, but if
anything else, I don't subscribe to seemingly every conspiracy theory
that can be drempt up. So I'm sitting here humorously pondering who
and/or what the real "sheeple" is... or are"

All this fuss over a guy who was born Jewish, lived Jewish, and died
Jewish, who didn't preach to the pagans and didn't want to, and never
intended that a bunch of guys break off from Judaism and start a "new"
religion based upon a name he never had.

:}
Harry, you're just jealous that you're not quite as famous as he is...yet.
--
John H

*Have a Super Christmas and a Spectacular New Year!*

Maybe I could volunteer to be tied up on the cross at next year's parade
in that north Florida community. I could learn enough spoken Aramaic to
bless the crowd.

Harry, I'm sure you've done that already. If you were in a group where that
would get you some pat's on the back, you'd be telling us what your
loincloth was made of. Shoot, you'd be showing us pictures of the holes in
your palms, or at least a pair of owls.


--
John H

*Have a Super Christmas and a Spectacular New Year!*



Naw. I'll leave the tasteless displays of religious-osity to the
Republican simpies.

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 10:16:44 -0800 (PST), Chuck Gould
wrote:


Here's a Mason who disagrees with you:

http://www.robertlomas.com/Freemason/Origins.html

Apparently there are differences of opinion within the order.
And of course, there are a variety of "rites" with varying numbers of
degrees operating under the common Masonic umbrella.

Ah yes - Dr. Robert Lomas.

I won't get into the whole Lomas suppositions as they have been
thoroughly debunked by serious historians - they even did a Discovery
Channel Special on Lomas's "work". He's considered the Eric von
Daniken of Masonic conspiracy theorists - by other Masonic conspiracy
theorists.

He's also the one who claims that the Knights Templar treasure is
located beneath the chapel.

Or the lawn.

Or the West Tower based on some arcane methodology crossing Knights
Templar and Masonic Ritual, phases of the moon, the Aztec Columnar
Table and the price of tea in Tibet.

However, to get back to the Knights Templar being the progenitors of
Masonic Ritual.

I hate to burst your oh so not careful research on the subject, but
the whole Masonic Knights thing is an inside joke - has been for a
long time.

Think Masons and Knights.

Is trying to identify the "true Freemason" as difficult as figuring
out who is a "real" American, Republican, Democrat, or Christian? :-)

Not at all.

What it does prove is that folks who have little or no knowledge of
the subject will theorize, extemporize and a lot of other izes
combining and interpolating all kinds of obscure claptrap to prove
their point.

The simple truth is this - Free Masons are lodge based, governed by
the same sets of rules and have nothing in common with Knights Templar
or any other mysterious order of antiquity other than that invented
when the Fraternity was established. I can point you to Catholic
ritual which is also very similar to the establishment of an Entered
Apprentice - does that mean that Masons are descended from Benedictine
Monks?

Pseudo detective work with little or no meaning.

If you are really interested in feeding your obvious appetite for
deconstructing all things historical, here's a few to keep you busy -
I can imagine you will find all finds of interesting fodder.

Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulcher of Jerusalem.

The Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of Saint John of Jerusalem,
of Rhodes and of Malta.

The Pontifical Equestrian Order of St. Gregory the Great.

The Most Honorable Military Order of the Bath.

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:46:56 +0000, Larry wrote:

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote in
:

Nothing I said contradicts this - these are commerative or honorary or
associative "degrees" and have nothing to do with Masonry other than a
casual relationship of having to be a Third Degree Master Mason to
participate. They bear no relationship to where the power of Masonry
lies which is with the local lodge.

In Freemasonry, there are no higher degrees than Master Mason.


But, what about these levels ABOVE Master Mason?
http://crossbearer-brian.tripod.com/id193.htm
Notice the eye of HORUS, the Egyptian sun god 3000 BC at the top looking
down on it all. These men are NOT Christians. Wolves in sheep's
clothing, yes?

There are no levels above Master Mason.

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

On Dec 21, 6:46*pm, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

*He's considered the Eric von Daniken of Masonic conspiracy
theorists - by other Masonic conspiracy theorists.

Now, I like that....

Maybe a little too religious for some...
 

Gene Kearns wrote in
:

2) Study the history of the creation of Christianity....

Agree or disagree with what you like..... but you owe it to yourself
to be an informed consumer....


And, he needs at least a cursory study of all the rest of the sun gods from
Horus to Jesus to be an informed consumer....not just the last.

I just watched Elizabeth and Elizabeth - The Golden Age off
alt.binaries.movies.divx. They're both posted and current over there, the
latter only a Russian cam copy, so far. It gives you another perspective
on the massive genocide the Catholic Church was willing to commit during
her reign to stop any free thinking, which would be bad for business....

Larry
--
QUOTE OF THE MONTH:
"I have been to several major Chinese cities and have seen first hand shops
crammed with obviously fake American products." - Jon Dudas, Undersecretary
of Commerce for Intellectual Property Rights.

How can they be fake? The Chinese make all "American Products" I use!