When things go wrong.........
 

On 28 Aug 2003 16:35:31 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

Had an experience out on Elliott Bay yesterday that seems funny enough to
report on, in retrospect.

I was invited to write a review on a pretty nice boat. Because what happened
could have happened to any boat, the brand name isn't important.

Speaking of which, I subscribed to"'MotorBoating" and "Chesapeake Bay"
magazines, both of which carry several boat revues every month. I have yet to
see a review say anything negative about any of the reviewed boats. Nor have I
ever seen a comparison made to other boats. Is that just the way it is? Are
there any pubs that provide fairly complete pictures of the rated boats?

Thanks,

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

When things go wrong.........
 

Gould 0738 wrote:
Had an experience out on Elliott Bay yesterday that seems funny enough to
report on, in retrospect.

I was invited to write a review on a pretty nice boat. Because what happened
could have happened to any boat, the brand name isn't important. The boat is
powered by twin 225HP Honda 4-stroke outboards. These are big, heavy engines
and the weight may have been a factor.

Come on Chuck don't go all coy you can tell this NG we're all friends
:-) Not good for business hey???

K

When things go wrong.........
 

Gould 0738 wrote:
Had an experience out on Elliott Bay yesterday that seems funny enough to
report on, in retrospect.

I was invited to write a review on a pretty nice boat. Because what happened
could have happened to any boat, the brand name isn't important. The boat is
powered by twin 225HP Honda 4-stroke outboards. These are big, heavy engines
and the weight may have been a factor.

Gee can't help but think you're happy to comment adversely on the
Hondas, what "you" think they're too heavy?? but of course your "local"
customer with the unsafe boat that's a different matter.


We were doing speed trials back and forth across the bay, noting RPM, speed,
and fuel consumption reported by the Raymarine plotter and the Flo-Scan.
The local representative for the boat was quite proud, (and with some
justification) of the boat's performance.

Gee he even put your life at risk & you still spruik the defective
boat??? A marketer is a marketer till death hey, I can see it now here
lies (oops did I say lies??) & he'd like you all to know the coffin is
well finished on the inside & brought to you by the local red neck
packaging Co.??


"Let me show you how well it turns at speed," he said, as he brought the wheel
hard over to starboard. We veered from our course a few degrees, and then the
wheel spun idly on on its shaft. "I've lost steering!" he said. No doubt.

Oh well. Slightly better (but just) to break down with a magazine guy aboard
than with a highly motivated, red hot buyer. :-)

I tracked down the problem. When the boat had been rigged, one of the
connections between the hydraulic steering rams and the wheel (aka pump)
had not been adequately secured. Under the port hatch to the lazarette, I
spotted a black plastic tube dribbling hydraulic fluid into the bilge, and an
empty copper fitting on a nearby length of identical plastic tubing. "I found
it! Maybe if we hook things back together we can continue on. Got any steering
fluid? The nuts too tight to turn by hand! Got a wrench?"

Um, no. No wrench, no steering fluid if we did have a wrench, and no real
chance to fix the problem as a result. As easily as the plastic line had popped
out of the fitting, it showed no inclination to be shoved back in. :-(

Fortunately, we had two brand new Honda outboards that were running like Rolex.
(And according to the optional upgrade cost for these engines, they should!)
The proper thing seemed to be to use throttle and gearbox steering to head back
to the marina and call for a repair person.

Oops there we go again, the only problem was the price of those Hondas
& what not enough tools?? no mention of the unsafe & clearly unpressure
tested rigging??? What with the weight of those horrible Honda & all
those tools it'll sink like a brick when the steering fails at high
speed, yes??? Good news is it'll probably have scated back to the
dealers downtown showrooms anyway:-)

Oops. The starboard engine had turned slightly farther than the port when the
hose parted. Makes sense, I would suppose, because the hydraulic circuit failed
on the port side and the starboard engine would have had sustained hydraulic
pressure for a split second longer.

Don't expect you to know this but the fact that your customer didn't
correct you speaks heaps for their understanding, if there were any room
for doubt left that is.

Twin OBs don't turn in unison any more than the front wheels on your
car do. The inside engine (or front wheel) needs to turn more sharply
than the outside engine. It's referred to as the ackerman principle &
ALL good boat riggers are well aware of it (you & your weren't)

If the turn was to starboard as suggested, the starboard engine should
indeed have turned further (tighter) than the port.


To steer back, we finally wound up running dock lines around the engine
cowlings and securing the lines to cleats at the transom. Once the engines were
secured from swinging, we were able to get back to the marina with throttles
and shift.
Not exactly an impressive climax to the test of a $200k boat- but the fault was
with the rigging, not the design or the hull.

Well covered Chuck your customer can't be expected to supply a safe
boat for a mere 200K or your proper dollars. & as you spruik the front
did have a point on it & after all that's a radical improvement over the
last couple of thousand years or boating.

Lessons to be learned: Carry tools, at least a very few basics, even on a brand
new boat.
If it's a boat spruiked by Chuck that is.

Carry at least a pint or a quart of every vital fluid, even on a
brand new boat. Have better redundacy for steering.

Hands up all those with a standby tiller system on OBs?? Form an
orderly line in alphabetical order please:-) Really Chuck it was not
rigged properly & such that given the total power it could have been
extremely unsafe (gees it was!!) so you should report this as much much
more or at least as much as you do when you say how shiny the hull is in
your articles??? Tricky never get another boat from them?? yep probably,
but then you would carry some respect with readers as a reviewer, the
choice is yours, but it seems you've made it as you have many time
before in this NG.

(On my own boat, if we ever
loose steering we can put a manual tiller on a large nut atop the rudder
quadrant. Never had to do that, but we keep the tiller stowed aboard just in
case).




I'm not picking on you I promise:-) just road testing my new system,
the blokes only set it up for me this morning; wow it's fast & got so
much new stuff!!! I've been with old faithful since 99-2000 so I'll need
to learn all the new tricks I guess.

Best regards,

K

When things go wrong.........
 

Come on Chuck don't go all coy you can tell this NG we're all friends
:-) Not good for business hey???

K

Because it isn't the fault of the boat.

This particular vessel was built in your corner of the planet (New Zealand) and
was shipped to the US sans engines. (It could have been set up as an I/O or an
outboard once here.) At that point, the builder is pretty well off the hook if
the local rigger falls short of the mark hooking up the engines.

I was surprised to see that the hydaulics were just plastic tubes stuffed into
compression fittings. Those engines and their associated rams are a fair sized
load.
I commented to the rep that I was surprised there wasn't at least a metal
fitting on end of the plastic line.

We now know that the guy who set up the Honda outboards used 50 pound fittings
instead of the 100 pound fittings the job actually required. He should have
used a reinforced hydraulic hose rather than the plastic line.

So, that's why trashing the boat isn't necessary or appropriate. Even after all
the
explanation, John Q. (as in public) walks away with only "Looks like Brand X is
a real piece of crap! The engines are set up wrong! Better avoid brand X!"
Since that would not have been true, why risk creating the impression?

When things go wrong.........
 

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 12:56:55 +1000, "K. Smith"
wrote:

I'm not picking on you I promise:-)

Every 28 days, just like clockwork. Don't forget to take some iron
pills, sweetie.

bb

When things go wrong.........
 

"Gould 0738" wrote in message

Because it isn't the fault of the boat.

Absolutely right. It's the fault of the rigger, and more to the point, it's
the fault of the company rep who didn't bother to check the work, even
knowing it was to be reviewed. An honest review would caution readers about
things like this. By name.

JG

When things go wrong.........
 

Absolutely right. It's the fault of the rigger, and more to the point, it's
the fault of the company rep who didn't bother to check the work, even
knowing it was to be reviewed. An honest review would caution readers about
things like this. By name.

JG

The name of the rep, or the rigger?

When things go wrong.........
 

I said,

The boat is
powered by twin 225HP Honda 4-stroke outboards. These are big, heavy
engines
and the weight may have been a factor.

Karen retorted:

Gee can't help but think you're happy to comment adversely on the
Hondas, what "you" think they're too heavy?? but of course your "local"
customer with the unsafe boat that's a different matter.

Oh no. Here we go again. Please point out where I said or implied that the
engines were "too heavy." How could any reasonable person interpet that comment
as adverse? Ever try to move a 225 HP outboard? They are, indeed, "heavy."
Typically heavier than 150, 175, or 200HP engines. Guess you must have missed
the comment later in the post that I thought the Hondas ran like Rolex, and
meant it as a compliment.

And so on throughout the post.........
I'm not going to waste the evening responding to your bitter drivel point by
point.

Your schtick is pretty worn out, Karen.
Pick something out of context and/or speculate on a motivation, and then begin
blasting away at a motivation that exists nowhere outside of your own
hallucination and speculation.

That would be exactly like me saying,
(for example) "I believe Karen Smith must be a crank addict. I once knew a
crank addict that acted exactly like Karen, and Karen never denies that she's
doin some cookin when nobody's lookin. Karen, how dare you show you face in
public? You crank addicts are a menace to society! You probably think you're
normal, but it's just the crank workin' on you. You might even now say that you
don't use the stuff....but that would only be further proof because we all know
it makes you lie."

I don't actually believe you are an addict, but, yeah, if I were to say that or
something like that it would be very similar to your constant string of
unfounded accusations you post every few weeks in response to the most innocent
and noncontroversial posts. Somebody just speculated it was every 28 days, but
frankly I don't give enough of a rip to keep track.

When things go wrong.........
 

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:14:36 -0400, JohnH
wrote:


Speaking of which, I subscribed to"'MotorBoating" and "Chesapeake Bay"
magazines, both of which carry several boat revues every month. I have yet to
see a review say anything negative about any of the reviewed boats. Nor have I
ever seen a comparison made to other boats. Is that just the way it is? Are
there any pubs that provide fairly complete pictures of the rated boats?

Boat magazines are just sales brochures for the advertisers, boat
companies. If some boat magazine said a Bayliner sucked, the boat
companies would be afraid the magazine would start pointing out their
little shortcuts NEXT and would pull the ads...drowning the magazine's
business in the process.

That's why everything with every boat looks just great even if it's
just glue and staples in a boat magazine........worthless.



Larry W4CSC

Isn't it becoming more practical by the day to make
Iraq's desert the new World Nuclear Waste Disposal Site?

When things go wrong.........
 

Gould 0738 wrote:
Come on Chuck don't go all coy you can tell this NG we're all friends
:-) Not good for business hey???

K


Because it isn't the fault of the boat.

This particular vessel was built in your corner of the planet (New Zealand) and
was shipped to the US sans engines. (It could have been set up as an I/O or an
outboard once here.) At that point, the builder is pretty well off the hook if
the local rigger falls short of the mark hooking up the engines.

No Chuck whoever supplies it is responsible, it's very kind of you to
decide who gets the blame but it's not your place. All you need do is
openly report the facts, hopefully with enough knowledge from your
experience to (fully accepted as enough to do the job, no bill)
recognise the shortcomings or other. Let the reader decide.


I was surprised to see that the hydaulics were just plastic tubes stuffed into
compression fittings. Those engines and their associated rams are a fair sized
load.
I commented to the rep that I was surprised there wasn't at least a metal
fitting on end of the plastic line.

The plastic part is not uncommon & is the standard so of itself
probably not an issue. Correct & safe install is an issue & despite your
comments they should take all care with every boat no more or less
because it's a demo test boat looking for a good rap.


We now know that the guy who set up the Honda outboards used 50 pound fittings
instead of the 100 pound fittings the job actually required. He should have
used a reinforced hydraulic hose rather than the plastic line.

Again be careful about knocking the plastic, it's pretty much how it
goes & can take very high pressures, even the ram hoses on a mercruiser
drive are just plastic inside that mesh exterior & they see up 2000 psi


So, that's why trashing the boat isn't necessary or appropriate. Even after all
the
explanation, John Q. (as in public) walks away with only "Looks like Brand X is
a real piece of crap! The engines are set up wrong! Better avoid brand X!"
Since that would not have been true, why risk creating the impression?



Well maybe yes & maybe depending on how you present it; no. The real
issue is you're shielding the supplier outright, when they were
responsible for a potentially very nasty situation.

Thanks for letting me play with the new setup it's fun.

K