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When things go wrong.........
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When things go wrong.........
Christ! No wonder you never say a Sea Ray or Bayliner is a piece of
crap! I didn't know you were in the rosy-glassed magazine business! I wondered what the never-a-discouraging-word connection was.....PLONK! Yet another intellect-above-emotion, well considered and helpful contribution. If you can't beat 'em, plonk 'em. :-) |
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When things go wrong (as they sometimes will)
And the road of life seems all uphill You're so dang tired, but you just can't quit Don't cry to me; I don't give a ****! Gould 0738 wrote: Christ! No wonder you never say a Sea Ray or Bayliner is a piece of crap! I didn't know you were in the rosy-glassed magazine business! I wondered what the never-a-discouraging-word connection was.....PLONK! Yet another intellect-above-emotion, well considered and helpful contribution. If you can't beat 'em, plonk 'em. :-) |
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Reminds me a bit of the time I was cruising along and the throttle handle came off in my hand...my own damned fault of course. As for carrying tools & such "even on an new boat" I am reminded of what a pilot friend once told me: The most dangerous time to fly an aitcraft (from a mechanical perspective) is just before or JUST AFTER maintenence is due. Obviously, if you are nearing a maintenence period then something is more likely to be going wrong. But also just after work is done there is a high likelyhood that something was not hooked back up correctly or some tool was left behind in a bad spot or some fluid was not replaces, etc., etc. Seems that would apply to anything "new" too. New is probably one of those times when the problems & bugs will show up. Thanks for the story. Entertaining and made me give a little thought to what could go wrong with my steering. |
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Thanks for the story. Entertaining and made me give a little
thought to what could go wrong with my steering. Got a call this PM from the local rep. Seems that the riggers should have used 100# reinforced hose rather than 50# plastic tubing with the large 225HP Hondas. The boat is going to be re-rigged right after the holiday, with the proper hydraulics. |
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On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:56:57 -0700, "Lloyd Sumpter"
wrote: Yup - I've USED my "emergency tiller" and it's not that bad. I'd say at least basic tools and spares of critical items should be as required as a PFD. Lloyd Sumpter "Far Cove" Catalina 36 We got out the emergency tiller on my bud's Amel Sharpi ketch last Sunday, just to see how it worked. You lift up the compartment hatch under the aft cabin bedding and the rudder post is right inside. There's a shaft that fits to the top of the square rudder post and goes up through a hole in the cabin roof after you slide a little hatch cover over to expose the hole. The tiller bolts easily to the top of this long shaft pulling against the hole's bearing surface. Though it looks funnier than hell sitting on top of the cabin steering this 41' center cockpit ketch, it was very easy and functional to use......(c; We're installing a new B&G H1000 Pilot autopilot into the boat. The electrically-powered actuator steers directly to the end of the bellcrank on the rudder post. You can feel some resistance as you steer the big wheel by hand as it pumps the oil around in the actuator. The mechanic that did the mechanical installation made a kind of trailer-hitch-looking heavy metal adapter to it. Very ingenious installation. B&G has a rudder position sensor that measures the position of the plunger in the main actuator...a separate unit. All I/O will be done through the B&G NMEA adapter to it....including rudder position, I hope. We'll see. Larry W4CSC Isn't it becoming more practical by the day to make Iraq's desert the new World Nuclear Waste Disposal Site? |
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"Wayne.B" wrote in message ...
Thanks for sharing the story but it makes you wonder what the skies would be like if aircraft maintenance were performed to the same standards. Hate to tell you this, but it ain't a lot different. There's lazy screwballs in every industry. |
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On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 03:00:20 +0000, Gould 0738 wrote:
Thanks for the story. Entertaining and made me give a little thought to what could go wrong with my steering. Got a call this PM from the local rep. Seems that the riggers should have used 100# reinforced hose rather than 50# plastic tubing with the large 225HP Hondas. The boat is going to be re-rigged right after the holiday, with the proper hydraulics. Huuu-yup. Beginning to like my 20-yr-old boat more and more. At least if something goes wrong, it's becuase it's worn out (and chances are, I've at least looked at it before!) Already replaced the "pull-pull" steering that was installed wrong, replaced the wrong fuel pump with the correct one, replaced the inadequate wiring, replaced the fuel-filler hose that was used for sewage...Tell me again why a new boat is so much more reliable than a used one? Lloyd Sumpter "Far Cove" 1983 Catalina 36 |
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On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:16:57 -0700, "Lloyd Sumpter"
wrote: Huuu-yup. Beginning to like my 20-yr-old boat more and more. At least if something goes wrong, it's becuase it's worn out (and chances are, I've at least looked at it before!) Already replaced the "pull-pull" steering that was installed wrong, replaced the wrong fuel pump with the correct one, replaced the inadequate wiring, replaced the fuel-filler hose that was used for sewage...Tell me again why a new boat is so much more reliable than a used one? Lloyd Sumpter "Far Cove" 1983 Catalina 36 See how much better boat you'd get if you could pry Far Cove from Lloyd's clutches than a crappy new boat?! His is ALL FIXED PROPERLY! Larry W4CSC Isn't it becoming more practical by the day to make Iraq's desert the new World Nuclear Waste Disposal Site? |
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On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:23:38 GMT, (Larry W4CSC) wrote:
See how much better boat you'd get if you could pry Far Cove from Lloyd's clutches than a crappy new boat?! His is ALL FIXED PROPERLY! ===================================== Isn't that the boat with the head discharge plumbed into the sink because it has a plugged thru hull ? |
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When things go wrong.........
Gould 0738 wrote:
Had an experience out on Elliott Bay yesterday that seems funny enough to report on, in retrospect. I was invited to write a review on a pretty nice boat. Because what happened could have happened to any boat, the brand name isn't important. The boat is powered by twin 225HP Honda 4-stroke outboards. These are big, heavy engines and the weight may have been a factor. Come on Chuck don't go all coy you can tell this NG we're all friends :-) Not good for business hey??? K |
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Gould 0738 wrote:
Had an experience out on Elliott Bay yesterday that seems funny enough to report on, in retrospect. I was invited to write a review on a pretty nice boat. Because what happened could have happened to any boat, the brand name isn't important. The boat is powered by twin 225HP Honda 4-stroke outboards. These are big, heavy engines and the weight may have been a factor. Gee can't help but think you're happy to comment adversely on the Hondas, what "you" think they're too heavy?? but of course your "local" customer with the unsafe boat that's a different matter. We were doing speed trials back and forth across the bay, noting RPM, speed, and fuel consumption reported by the Raymarine plotter and the Flo-Scan. The local representative for the boat was quite proud, (and with some justification) of the boat's performance. Gee he even put your life at risk & you still spruik the defective boat??? A marketer is a marketer till death hey, I can see it now here lies (oops did I say lies??) & he'd like you all to know the coffin is well finished on the inside & brought to you by the local red neck packaging Co.?? "Let me show you how well it turns at speed," he said, as he brought the wheel hard over to starboard. We veered from our course a few degrees, and then the wheel spun idly on on its shaft. "I've lost steering!" he said. No doubt. Oh well. Slightly better (but just) to break down with a magazine guy aboard than with a highly motivated, red hot buyer. :-) I tracked down the problem. When the boat had been rigged, one of the connections between the hydraulic steering rams and the wheel (aka pump) had not been adequately secured. Under the port hatch to the lazarette, I spotted a black plastic tube dribbling hydraulic fluid into the bilge, and an empty copper fitting on a nearby length of identical plastic tubing. "I found it! Maybe if we hook things back together we can continue on. Got any steering fluid? The nuts too tight to turn by hand! Got a wrench?" Um, no. No wrench, no steering fluid if we did have a wrench, and no real chance to fix the problem as a result. As easily as the plastic line had popped out of the fitting, it showed no inclination to be shoved back in. :-( Fortunately, we had two brand new Honda outboards that were running like Rolex. (And according to the optional upgrade cost for these engines, they should!) The proper thing seemed to be to use throttle and gearbox steering to head back to the marina and call for a repair person. Oops there we go again, the only problem was the price of those Hondas & what not enough tools?? no mention of the unsafe & clearly unpressure tested rigging??? What with the weight of those horrible Honda & all those tools it'll sink like a brick when the steering fails at high speed, yes??? Good news is it'll probably have scated back to the dealers downtown showrooms anyway:-) Oops. The starboard engine had turned slightly farther than the port when the hose parted. Makes sense, I would suppose, because the hydraulic circuit failed on the port side and the starboard engine would have had sustained hydraulic pressure for a split second longer. Don't expect you to know this but the fact that your customer didn't correct you speaks heaps for their understanding, if there were any room for doubt left that is. Twin OBs don't turn in unison any more than the front wheels on your car do. The inside engine (or front wheel) needs to turn more sharply than the outside engine. It's referred to as the ackerman principle & ALL good boat riggers are well aware of it (you & your weren't) If the turn was to starboard as suggested, the starboard engine should indeed have turned further (tighter) than the port. To steer back, we finally wound up running dock lines around the engine cowlings and securing the lines to cleats at the transom. Once the engines were secured from swinging, we were able to get back to the marina with throttles and shift. Not exactly an impressive climax to the test of a $200k boat- but the fault was with the rigging, not the design or the hull. Well covered Chuck your customer can't be expected to supply a safe boat for a mere 200K or your proper dollars. & as you spruik the front did have a point on it & after all that's a radical improvement over the last couple of thousand years or boating. Lessons to be learned: Carry tools, at least a very few basics, even on a brand new boat. If it's a boat spruiked by Chuck that is. Carry at least a pint or a quart of every vital fluid, even on a brand new boat. Have better redundacy for steering. Hands up all those with a standby tiller system on OBs?? Form an orderly line in alphabetical order please:-) Really Chuck it was not rigged properly & such that given the total power it could have been extremely unsafe (gees it was!!) so you should report this as much much more or at least as much as you do when you say how shiny the hull is in your articles??? Tricky never get another boat from them?? yep probably, but then you would carry some respect with readers as a reviewer, the choice is yours, but it seems you've made it as you have many time before in this NG. (On my own boat, if we ever loose steering we can put a manual tiller on a large nut atop the rudder quadrant. Never had to do that, but we keep the tiller stowed aboard just in case). I'm not picking on you I promise:-) just road testing my new system, the blokes only set it up for me this morning; wow it's fast & got so much new stuff!!! I've been with old faithful since 99-2000 so I'll need to learn all the new tricks I guess. Best regards, K |
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Come on Chuck don't go all coy you can tell this NG we're all friends
:-) Not good for business hey??? K Because it isn't the fault of the boat. This particular vessel was built in your corner of the planet (New Zealand) and was shipped to the US sans engines. (It could have been set up as an I/O or an outboard once here.) At that point, the builder is pretty well off the hook if the local rigger falls short of the mark hooking up the engines. I was surprised to see that the hydaulics were just plastic tubes stuffed into compression fittings. Those engines and their associated rams are a fair sized load. I commented to the rep that I was surprised there wasn't at least a metal fitting on end of the plastic line. We now know that the guy who set up the Honda outboards used 50 pound fittings instead of the 100 pound fittings the job actually required. He should have used a reinforced hydraulic hose rather than the plastic line. So, that's why trashing the boat isn't necessary or appropriate. Even after all the explanation, John Q. (as in public) walks away with only "Looks like Brand X is a real piece of crap! The engines are set up wrong! Better avoid brand X!" Since that would not have been true, why risk creating the impression? |
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On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 12:56:55 +1000, "K. Smith"
wrote: I'm not picking on you I promise:-) Every 28 days, just like clockwork. Don't forget to take some iron pills, sweetie. bb |
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"Gould 0738" wrote in message Because it isn't the fault of the boat. Absolutely right. It's the fault of the rigger, and more to the point, it's the fault of the company rep who didn't bother to check the work, even knowing it was to be reviewed. An honest review would caution readers about things like this. By name. JG |
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Absolutely right. It's the fault of the rigger, and more to the point, it's
the fault of the company rep who didn't bother to check the work, even knowing it was to be reviewed. An honest review would caution readers about things like this. By name. JG The name of the rep, or the rigger? |
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I said,
The boat is powered by twin 225HP Honda 4-stroke outboards. These are big, heavy engines and the weight may have been a factor. Karen retorted: Gee can't help but think you're happy to comment adversely on the Hondas, what "you" think they're too heavy?? but of course your "local" customer with the unsafe boat that's a different matter. Oh no. Here we go again. Please point out where I said or implied that the engines were "too heavy." How could any reasonable person interpet that comment as adverse? Ever try to move a 225 HP outboard? They are, indeed, "heavy." Typically heavier than 150, 175, or 200HP engines. Guess you must have missed the comment later in the post that I thought the Hondas ran like Rolex, and meant it as a compliment. And so on throughout the post......... I'm not going to waste the evening responding to your bitter drivel point by point. Your schtick is pretty worn out, Karen. Pick something out of context and/or speculate on a motivation, and then begin blasting away at a motivation that exists nowhere outside of your own hallucination and speculation. That would be exactly like me saying, (for example) "I believe Karen Smith must be a crank addict. I once knew a crank addict that acted exactly like Karen, and Karen never denies that she's doin some cookin when nobody's lookin. Karen, how dare you show you face in public? You crank addicts are a menace to society! You probably think you're normal, but it's just the crank workin' on you. You might even now say that you don't use the stuff....but that would only be further proof because we all know it makes you lie." I don't actually believe you are an addict, but, yeah, if I were to say that or something like that it would be very similar to your constant string of unfounded accusations you post every few weeks in response to the most innocent and noncontroversial posts. Somebody just speculated it was every 28 days, but frankly I don't give enough of a rip to keep track. |
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On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:14:36 -0400, JohnH
wrote: Speaking of which, I subscribed to"'MotorBoating" and "Chesapeake Bay" magazines, both of which carry several boat revues every month. I have yet to see a review say anything negative about any of the reviewed boats. Nor have I ever seen a comparison made to other boats. Is that just the way it is? Are there any pubs that provide fairly complete pictures of the rated boats? Boat magazines are just sales brochures for the advertisers, boat companies. If some boat magazine said a Bayliner sucked, the boat companies would be afraid the magazine would start pointing out their little shortcuts NEXT and would pull the ads...drowning the magazine's business in the process. That's why everything with every boat looks just great even if it's just glue and staples in a boat magazine........worthless. Larry W4CSC Isn't it becoming more practical by the day to make Iraq's desert the new World Nuclear Waste Disposal Site? |
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Gould 0738 wrote:
Come on Chuck don't go all coy you can tell this NG we're all friends :-) Not good for business hey??? K Because it isn't the fault of the boat. This particular vessel was built in your corner of the planet (New Zealand) and was shipped to the US sans engines. (It could have been set up as an I/O or an outboard once here.) At that point, the builder is pretty well off the hook if the local rigger falls short of the mark hooking up the engines. No Chuck whoever supplies it is responsible, it's very kind of you to decide who gets the blame but it's not your place. All you need do is openly report the facts, hopefully with enough knowledge from your experience to (fully accepted as enough to do the job, no bill) recognise the shortcomings or other. Let the reader decide. I was surprised to see that the hydaulics were just plastic tubes stuffed into compression fittings. Those engines and their associated rams are a fair sized load. I commented to the rep that I was surprised there wasn't at least a metal fitting on end of the plastic line. The plastic part is not uncommon & is the standard so of itself probably not an issue. Correct & safe install is an issue & despite your comments they should take all care with every boat no more or less because it's a demo test boat looking for a good rap. We now know that the guy who set up the Honda outboards used 50 pound fittings instead of the 100 pound fittings the job actually required. He should have used a reinforced hydraulic hose rather than the plastic line. Again be careful about knocking the plastic, it's pretty much how it goes & can take very high pressures, even the ram hoses on a mercruiser drive are just plastic inside that mesh exterior & they see up 2000 psi So, that's why trashing the boat isn't necessary or appropriate. Even after all the explanation, John Q. (as in public) walks away with only "Looks like Brand X is a real piece of crap! The engines are set up wrong! Better avoid brand X!" Since that would not have been true, why risk creating the impression? Well maybe yes & maybe depending on how you present it; no. The real issue is you're shielding the supplier outright, when they were responsible for a potentially very nasty situation. Thanks for letting me play with the new setup it's fun. K |
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Thanks for letting me play with the new setup it's fun.
K It may be fun for you, but your "new setup" looks a lot like same-o, same-o from here. :-) |
When things go wrong.........
K. Smith wrote:
Gould 0738 wrote: Had an experience out on Elliott Bay yesterday that seems funny enough to report on, in retrospect. I was invited to write a review on a pretty nice boat. Because what happened could have happened to any boat, the brand name isn't important. The boat is powered by twin 225HP Honda 4-stroke outboards. These are big, heavy engines and the weight may have been a factor. Gee can't help but think you're happy to comment adversely on the Hondas, what "you" think they're too heavy?? but of course your "local" customer with the unsafe boat that's a different matter. Chuck didn't say they were too heavy, he said they were big and heavy. Which they are. Did you get fired from your go-fer job again? -- * * * email sent to will *never* get to me. |
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Best HP per pound has been *long* established. The rest of you are pussies. :) -W "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Chuck didn't say they were too heavy, he said they were big and heavy. Which they are. |
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"Gould 0738" wrote in message The name of the rep, or the rigger? Both, I would say. You don't have to lambast them, but the introductory information often will point out that the boat was provided by --- , and the set-up done by ---, etc. Then, as you tell your story accurately, any reader with a 3-digit IQ will reach an appropriate conclusion. JG |
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Dean wrote:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:32:17 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: Considering all of the possible outcomes from a high speed steering failure, I'd have to say that kind of mistake borders on criminal negligence, and that you all got off lucky. Old neighbors of mine, 3 sons, a wife and husband were at the lake... Son and son's friend are in boat with dad, wife and another son is on beach watching them cruise around in their new boat. A nut came off their steering system at speed, and the boat immediately turned hard, throwing two overboard. The son remained in the boat, and managed to get it killed, but not before he was 100 yards away from the overboard occupants. The father drowned before they could find him. True honest-to-god story, not heard from a friend of a friend. This happened 3 years ago or so I believe... yes there was a lawsuit, that's all i was allowed to be told about the case though. A needless tragedy that could have been prevented by a life jacket. Peggie ---------- Peggie Hall Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987 Author "Get Rid of Boat Odors - A Guide To Marine Sanitation Systems and Other Sources of Aggravation and Odor" http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detai...=400&group=327 http://www.seaworthy.com/html/get_ri...oat_odors.html |
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K. Smith wrote:
Harry Krause wrote: Clams Canino wrote: Best HP per pound has been *long* established. The rest of you are pussies. :) -W "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Chuck didn't say they were too heavy, he said they were big and heavy. Which they are. Oh, I don't disagree. Our four stroke Yamaha 225 is a nice engine, but if I had had a choice, I would have gone plain vanilla two cycle. So the liar tries to perpetuate the lie again. He doesn't own a boat & never has, he has a long history of outright lies. Poor, pathetic Karen of Oz. & thanks Harry I had forgotten to copy over your priors to the new setup, underway just for you:-) The new setup? What, you bought an Atari 800 at a collector's booth? You moved up from a dumb terminal? -- * * * email sent to will *never* get to me. |
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Harry Krause wrote:
K. Smith wrote: Harry Krause wrote: Clams Canino wrote: Best HP per pound has been *long* established. The rest of you are pussies. :) -W "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Chuck didn't say they were too heavy, he said they were big and heavy. Which they are. Oh, I don't disagree. Our four stroke Yamaha 225 is a nice engine, but if I had had a choice, I would have gone plain vanilla two cycle. So the liar tries to perpetuate the lie again. He doesn't own a boat & never has, he has a long history of outright lies. Poor, pathetic Karen of Oz. & thanks Harry I had forgotten to copy over your priors to the new setup, underway just for you:-) The new setup? What, you bought an Atari 800 at a collector's booth? You moved up from a dumb terminal? Gee & this coming from the sad, lying, uneducated one who is trapped in the never ending world of wintel, having to buy a new ever bigger machine every 5 minutes & still getting virused every 2 minutes?? Sad really sad, if you like Harry I can get one of the blokes to online teach you how to work a computer then you'll realise just what a ripoff cycle they've got you into. I've got all your priors transfered over now; so ready whenever you a-) K |
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K. Smith wrote:
Gee & this coming from the sad, lying, uneducated one who is trapped in the never ending world of wintel, having to buy a new ever bigger machine every 5 minutes & still getting virused every 2 minutes?? You really are out of your mind. Sad really sad, if you like Harry I can get one of the blokes to online teach you how to work a computer then you'll realise just what a ripoff cycle they've got you into. You mean, I could learn how to work a computer the way you cannot? I'll pass. I've got all your priors transfered over now; so ready whenever you a-) K I don't give a hoot what you do. Neither does anyone else. -- * * * email sent to will *never* get to me. |
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Powerboat Reports has some negative things to say when warranted. No ads in
it, I wonder if that's why? "JohnH" wrote in message ... On 28 Aug 2003 16:35:31 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote: Had an experience out on Elliott Bay yesterday that seems funny enough to report on, in retrospect. I was invited to write a review on a pretty nice boat. Because what happened could have happened to any boat, the brand name isn't important. Speaking of which, I subscribed to"'MotorBoating" and "Chesapeake Bay" magazines, both of which carry several boat revues every month. I have yet to see a review say anything negative about any of the reviewed boats. Nor have I ever seen a comparison made to other boats. Is that just the way it is? Are there any pubs that provide fairly complete pictures of the rated boats? Thanks, John On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD |
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I agree. But realistically how many people don a lifejacket on during
a sunny nice day, in a low-performance boat? Only thos who know for a fact they are going to be entering the water involuntarily. Most of those who get tossed overboard have always figured, "It could never happen to me........" Sadly enough, famous last words all too often. |
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Powerboat Reports has some negative things to say when warranted. No ads in
it, I wonder if that's why? Depsite that fact that you can find one or more people to condemn *every* boat manufacturer as the producer of POS, overpriced, bad styled, underpowered, or all of the above- a lot of those conclusions are purely subjective opinions. For five bucks: List any boat brand here that routinely "falls apart" when underway and subjected to appropriate use............ |
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"Gould 0738" wrote in message ... For five bucks: List any boat brand here that routinely "falls apart" when underway and subjected to appropriate use............ Baha. http://www.yachtsurvey.com/boatrevie..._260_targa.htm |
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For five bucks: List any boat brand here
that routinely "falls apart" when underway and subjected to appropriate use............ Baha. http://www.yachtsurvey.com/boatrevie..._260_targa.htm "routinely falls apart when underway and subjected to appropriate use..........." Sorry, NOYB. The tale of a cheaply built boat abused by the previous owner by virtue of neglect (uncoverd for three years in Florida weather environment) doesn't address "underway" or "appropriate use". Pasco fails to note that most of the mold and delamination problems would have been prevented or at least minimized by storing a boat with a known plywood interior under cover, or at least under a canvas. Who builds a boat with a plywood interior that *will* stand up to FLA weather without appropriate cover? |
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