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#1
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Long Boats and Drag?
Some time ago I was told by Vaclav Stejskal of OneOceanKayaks.com that
beyond 17 feet or so longer boats do not provide an efficiency advantage. Yet we know that surf skis and other racing boats are often as long as 22ft. After playing with Kayak Foundry, a freeware program by Ross Leidy (http://www.blueheronkayaks.com/kayak/index.html) I am seeing the same sort of results that Vaclav Stejskal predicted. Adding length is not improving the total calculated drag. So what is the truth of the matter? Is the standard method of calculating drag from a computer model inaccurate? http://www.westsideboatshop.com/ http://www.kayakpro.com/kayakpro/www...od_vampire.htm http://www.sportzhub.com/ruahine/kayaks.htm http://www.oceanpaddlesports.com/surfskis.html |
#2
posted to rec.boats.paddle
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Long Boats and Drag?
On Sep 21, 1:59 pm, Davej wrote:
Some time ago I was told by Vaclav Stejskal of OneOceanKayaks.com that beyond 17 feet or so longer boats do not provide an efficiency advantage. Yet we know that surf skis and other racing boats are often as long as 22ft. After playing with Kayak Foundry, a freeware program by Ross Leidy (http://www.blueheronkayaks.com/kayak/index.html) I am seeing the same sort of results that Vaclav Stejskal predicted. Adding length is not improving the total calculated drag. So what is the truth of the matter? Is the standard method of calculating drag from a computer model inaccurate? http://www.westsideboatshop.com/http.../surfskis.html Take a look at an Epic Endurance http://www.seakayakermag.com/PDFs/Endurance_stats.pdf Look at the amount of waterline and wetted surface. |
#3
posted to rec.boats.paddle
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Long Boats and Drag?
Davej wrote:
Some time ago I was told by Vaclav Stejskal of OneOceanKayaks.com that beyond 17 feet or so longer boats do not provide an efficiency advantage. Yet we know that surf skis and other racing boats are often as long as 22ft. After playing with Kayak Foundry, a freeware program by Ross Leidy (http://www.blueheronkayaks.com/kayak/index.html) I am seeing the same sort of results that Vaclav Stejskal predicted. Adding length is not improving the total calculated drag. So what is the truth of the matter? Is the standard method of calculating drag from a computer model inaccurate? http://www.westsideboatshop.com/ http://www.kayakpro.com/kayakpro/www...od_vampire.htm http://www.sportzhub.com/ruahine/kayaks.htm http://www.oceanpaddlesports.com/surfskis.html For typical non-racers, longer boats offer no advantages, since the paddler cannot push the boat to it's performance limits and their drag at lower speeds is higher than that of shorter boats. The lower the power of the paddler, the less the advantage of longer boats. OTOH, if you have the horsepower to push a longer boat to its limit and keep it there, there is a definite advantage. However, the percentage of paddlers capable of that is tiny. |
#4
posted to rec.boats.paddle
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Long Boats and Drag?
On Sep 23, 7:13 am, Brian Nystrom wrote:
Davej wrote: Some time ago I was told by Vaclav Stejskal of OneOceanKayaks.com that beyond 17 feet or so longer boats do not provide an efficiency advantage. Yet we know that surf skis and other racing boats are often as long as 22ft. After playing with Kayak Foundry, a freeware program by Ross Leidy (http://www.blueheronkayaks.com/kayak/index.html) I am seeing the same sort of results that Vaclav Stejskal predicted. Adding length is not improving the total calculated drag. So what is the truth of the matter? Is the standard method of calculating drag from a computer model inaccurate? http://www.westsideboatshop.com/ http://www.kayakpro.com/kayakpro/www...od_vampire.htm http://www.sportzhub.com/ruahine/kayaks.htm http://www.oceanpaddlesports.com/surfskis.html For typical non-racers, longer boats offer no advantages, since the paddler cannot push the boat to it's performance limits and their drag at lower speeds is higher than that of shorter boats. The lower the power of the paddler, the less the advantage of longer boats. OTOH, if you have the horsepower to push a longer boat to its limit and keep it there, there is a definite advantage. However, the percentage of paddlers capable of that is tiny. Ok, but shouldn't I be able to see the "residual" drag curve become less steep with an increase in hullspeed, where hullspeed = 1.34 * Sqrt(water-line-length) ? If not is there a third type of "drag" used to describe the bow-wave climbing hullspeed effect? |
#5
posted to rec.boats.paddle
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Long Boats and Drag?
Davej wrote:
On Sep 23, 7:13 am, Brian Nystrom wrote: Davej wrote: Some time ago I was told by Vaclav Stejskal of OneOceanKayaks.com that beyond 17 feet or so longer boats do not provide an efficiency advantage. Yet we know that surf skis and other racing boats are often as long as 22ft. After playing with Kayak Foundry, a freeware program by Ross Leidy (http://www.blueheronkayaks.com/kayak/index.html) I am seeing the same sort of results that Vaclav Stejskal predicted. Adding length is not improving the total calculated drag. So what is the truth of the matter? Is the standard method of calculating drag from a computer model inaccurate? http://www.westsideboatshop.com/ http://www.kayakpro.com/kayakpro/www...od_vampire.htm http://www.sportzhub.com/ruahine/kayaks.htm http://www.oceanpaddlesports.com/surfskis.html For typical non-racers, longer boats offer no advantages, since the paddler cannot push the boat to it's performance limits and their drag at lower speeds is higher than that of shorter boats. The lower the power of the paddler, the less the advantage of longer boats. OTOH, if you have the horsepower to push a longer boat to its limit and keep it there, there is a definite advantage. However, the percentage of paddlers capable of that is tiny. Ok, but shouldn't I be able to see the "residual" drag curve become less steep with an increase in hullspeed, where hullspeed = 1.34 * Sqrt(water-line-length) ? If not is there a third type of "drag" used to describe the bow-wave climbing hullspeed effect? The drag curve doesn't become less steep, the steep part of the curve just occurs at a higher speed. |
#6
posted to rec.boats.paddle
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Long Boats and Drag?
On Sep 24, 5:49 am, Brian Nystrom wrote:
Davej wrote: On Sep 23, 7:13 am, Brian Nystrom wrote: Davej wrote: Some time ago I was told by Vaclav Stejskal of OneOceanKayaks.com that beyond 17 feet or so longer boats do not provide an efficiency advantage. Yet we know that surf skis and other racing boats are often as long as 22ft. After playing with Kayak Foundry, a freeware program by Ross Leidy (http://www.blueheronkayaks.com/kayak/index.html) I am seeing the same sort of results that Vaclav Stejskal predicted. Adding length is not improving the total calculated drag. So what is the truth of the matter? Is the standard method of calculating drag from a computer model inaccurate? http://www.westsideboatshop.com/ http://www.kayakpro.com/kayakpro/www...od_vampire.htm http://www.sportzhub.com/ruahine/kayaks.htm http://www.oceanpaddlesports.com/surfskis.html For typical non-racers, longer boats offer no advantages, since the paddler cannot push the boat to it's performance limits and their drag at lower speeds is higher than that of shorter boats. The lower the power of the paddler, the less the advantage of longer boats. OTOH, if you have the horsepower to push a longer boat to its limit and keep it there, there is a definite advantage. However, the percentage of paddlers capable of that is tiny. Ok, but shouldn't I be able to see the "residual" drag curve become less steep with an increase in hullspeed, where hullspeed = 1.34 * Sqrt(water-line-length) ? If not is there a third type of "drag" used to describe the bow-wave climbing hullspeed effect? The drag curve doesn't become less steep, the steep part of the curve just occurs at a higher speed. Ok, that is what I meant, but I don't seem to see that in the curves. |
#7
posted to rec.boats.paddle
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Long Boats and Drag?
It's not so much hull resistence you need to see, but (horse)power requirement for the speeds plotted along the bottom of the graph. Then you can judge how fast the boat can go given your individual power ability. Over distance the "average" paddler can maintian 1/20 (0.05) horsepower. However, calculated hull resistance is only a base measure. On top of that you have to overcome wind and waves when they are against you, or add them to your effort when they are with you. I attempted to roughly broke these down near the bottom of this page: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/Boats.htm |
#8
posted to rec.boats.paddle
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Long Boats and Drag?
On Sep 25, 9:49 am, Wm Watt wrote:
It's not so much hull resistance you need to see, but (horse)power requirement for the speeds plotted along the bottom of the graph. Then you can judge how fast the boat can go given your individual power ability. Over distance the "average" paddler can maintian 1/20 (0.05) horsepower. However, calculated hull resistance is only a base measure. On top of that you have to overcome wind and waves when they are against you, or add them to your effort when they are with you. I attempted to roughly broke these down near the bottom of this page:www.ncf.ca/~ag384/Boats.htm Ok, but to restate my issue, I'm trying to understand why the KAPER curves show no advantage for a longer boat. Of course I'm trusting that Kayak Foundry is implementing KAPER correctly. As an example I have two crude designs posted here; http://home.att.net/~galt_57/b014.yak --- a very slender ~15 ft boat LWL= 14' 7.4" http://home.att.net/~galt_57/b022.yak --- a very slender 22 ft boat LWL= 21' 10.8" They both have the same 17" waterline beam. Looking at the curves I can't see anything that hints that the "hull speed" is increased for the 22 ft design. |
#9
posted to rec.boats.paddle
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Long Boats and Drag?
On Sep 25, 3:08 pm, Davej wrote:
They both have the same 17" waterline beam. Looking at the curves I can't see anything that hints that the "hull speed" is increased for the 22 ft design. It may not. There is a famous case of two canoe racers who built themselves a long boat thinking they would leave the competition in their wake but finished well back because the longer boat weighed more. They weren't aware of all the effects adding length has on performance. I'm sorry I don't have John Winter's KAPER formulae to show how weight enters the math but you can find some of his writings at www.greenval.com where canoes are sold from his designs, also some of his publications. Perhaps the first page of www.greenval.com/shape_part2.html will explain it, although I regret the KAPER formula does not appear. I've only used KAPER once to check out a design of a sailboat based on a canoe I built for myself and cannot find the formulae among my notes. Also look at part1.html and part3.html for his complete "Shape of the Canoe". Apparently Green Valley sells an updated edition online which includes a copy of KAPER. Most of my boat calculations have been for sail power where displacement is a big factor. Displacement is the total weigth of both boat and contents. Canoes and kayaks, being light dispalcement boats, don't perform the same as sailboats and motorboats. That's why Winter's modified the formulae. Hope that helps. |
#10
posted to rec.boats.paddle
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Long Boats and Drag?
On Sep 25, 5:31 pm, Wm Watt wrote:
On Sep 25, 3:08 pm, Davej wrote: They both have the same 17" waterline beam. Looking at the curves I can't see anything that hints that the "hull speed" is increased for the 22 ft design. It may not. There is a famous case of two canoe racers who built themselves a long boat thinking they would leave the competition in their wake but finished well back because the longer boat weighed more. They weren't aware of all the effects adding length has on performance. I'm sorry I don't have John Winter's KAPER formulae to show how weight enters the math but you can find some of his writings atwww.greenval.com where canoes are sold from his designs, also some of his publications. Perhaps the first page ofwww.greenval.com/shape_part2.htmlwill explain it, although I regret the KAPER formula does not appear. I've only used KAPER once to check out a design of a sailboat based on a canoe I built for myself and cannot find the formulae among my notes. Also look at part1.html and part3.html for his complete "Shape of the Canoe". Apparently Green Valley sells an updated edition online which includes a copy of KAPER. Most of my boat calculations have been for sail power where displacement is a big factor. Displacement is the total weigth of both boat and contents. Canoes and kayaks, being light dispalcement boats, don't perform the same as sailboats and motorboats. That's why Winter's modified the formulae. Hope that helps. Well, I found out I was not preparing the models correctly. The waterline has to be manually adjusted before the curves are valid. The corrected models are; http://home.att.net/~galt_57/c014.yak http://home.att.net/~galt_57/c022.yak And now the long boat has superior drag for all speeds above 4 knots. As you mentioned this still leaves the problem of constructing a long boat that is very light weight... |
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