"Hamish" wrote in message
ink.net...
I am in California. I just got the renewal bill for my personal umbrella
policy, and the "Important Notice" brochure that always comes with it said,
"The definition of insured is revised so that a person or organization
using an insured's auto, RV or watercraft is no longer covered." So, when
I let a valet park my car, he's not covered. If I loan my car to a friend,
relative, or neighbor, they're not covered. If my ski boat was running -
it isn't right now - and I let a friend drive it to tow me, he's not
covered. (Yes, I know that my "underlying" car insurance covers them up to
the limits of that policy, but those limits are only enough to pay for a
stubbed toe.)

I called my agent and she was totally unaware of the change, and asked me
to fax her a copy of the brochure. Then, once she called the
underwriters, she still seemed unconcerned. She was happy to quote me the
increase in premiums to bring each of my car polcies up to the same limits
that were formerly covered by the Umbrella. An additional $206 per year.
I will pay the money, because I own a home and it is vital that I remain
insured up to a high limit.

I have taken the trouble to write this post because I think that a lot of
other people will fail to read the "Important Notice" (the brochure is 17
pages long), will simply write the check like they do every other year,
and will end up with a big gap in their coverage. And their insurance
agent won't take the trouble to call them or write them a personal letter
telling about the big gap that just opened up in their coverage. So, look
out! And warn your friends.

Ham



1. The valet company should have their own insurance.

2. Don't loan your car or boat to anyone outside your family.

3. Why should the insurance company cover anyone but you and your family?

So what is the big deal?

"JimH" ask wrote in message
...

"Hamish" wrote in message
ink.net...
I am in California. I just got the renewal bill for my personal umbrella
policy, and the "Important Notice" brochure that always comes with it
said, "The definition of insured is revised so that a person or
organization using an insured's auto, RV or watercraft is no longer
covered." So, when I let a valet park my car, he's not covered. If I
loan my car to a friend, relative, or neighbor, they're not covered. If
my ski boat was running - it isn't right now - and I let a friend drive it
to tow me, he's not covered. (Yes, I know that my "underlying" car
insurance covers them up to the limits of that policy, but those limits
are only enough to pay for a stubbed toe.)

I called my agent and she was totally unaware of the change, and asked me
to fax her a copy of the brochure. Then, once she called the
underwriters, she still seemed unconcerned. She was happy to quote me
the increase in premiums to bring each of my car polcies up to the same
limits that were formerly covered by the Umbrella. An additional $206
per year. I will pay the money, because I own a home and it is vital that
I remain insured up to a high limit.

I have taken the trouble to write this post because I think that a lot of
other people will fail to read the "Important Notice" (the brochure is 17
pages long), will simply write the check like they do every other year,
and will end up with a big gap in their coverage. And their insurance
agent won't take the trouble to call them or write them a personal letter
telling about the big gap that just opened up in their coverage. So,
look out! And warn your friends.

Ham



1. The valet company should have their own insurance.

Doesn't mean someone won't sue both of you...and collect because of an
idiotic jury.


2. Don't loan your car or boat to anyone outside your family.


In-laws? Parents? Brother? Not practical.


3. Why should the insurance company cover anyone but you and your family?


Because they're insuring the vehicle.

"NOYB" wrote in message
ink.net...

"JimH" ask wrote in message
...

"Hamish" wrote in message
ink.net...
I am in California. I just got the renewal bill for my personal umbrella
policy, and the "Important Notice" brochure that always comes with it
said, "The definition of insured is revised so that a person or
organization using an insured's auto, RV or watercraft is no longer
covered." So, when I let a valet park my car, he's not covered. If I
loan my car to a friend, relative, or neighbor, they're not covered. If
my ski boat was running - it isn't right now - and I let a friend drive
it to tow me, he's not covered. (Yes, I know that my "underlying" car
insurance covers them up to the limits of that policy, but those limits
are only enough to pay for a stubbed toe.)
(clipped)

But how does your auto policy cover your watercraft. My insurance agent
recently pointed out to me that although my homeowners policy specifically
covers a boat up to 14 ft and under 25 hp, that's only while being used in a
body of water totally on my property (my swimming pool, maybe?), my boat
being used on the navigable river in front of my place is no longer covered
as soon as I pull away from my dock. They really want you to spend money to
cover each and every thing you might drive even though you can't drive more
than one vehicle, etc at a time. Furthermore, I would imagine that their
reason to specifically write in the policy that no other person using the
vehicle would be covered is to prevent the lawyers from looking for the
"deepest" pocket to sue in the event of an accident.

Tom G.

"NOYB" wrote in message
ink.net...

"JimH" ask wrote in message
...

"Hamish" wrote in message
ink.net...
I am in California. I just got the renewal bill for my personal umbrella
policy, and the "Important Notice" brochure that always comes with it
said, "The definition of insured is revised so that a person or
organization using an insured's auto, RV or watercraft is no longer
covered." So, when I let a valet park my car, he's not covered. If I
loan my car to a friend, relative, or neighbor, they're not covered. If
my ski boat was running - it isn't right now - and I let a friend drive
it to tow me, he's not covered. (Yes, I know that my "underlying" car
insurance covers them up to the limits of that policy, but those limits
are only enough to pay for a stubbed toe.)

I called my agent and she was totally unaware of the change, and asked
me to fax her a copy of the brochure. Then, once she called the
underwriters, she still seemed unconcerned. She was happy to quote me
the increase in premiums to bring each of my car polcies up to the same
limits that were formerly covered by the Umbrella. An additional $206
per year. I will pay the money, because I own a home and it is vital
that I remain insured up to a high limit.

I have taken the trouble to write this post because I think that a lot
of other people will fail to read the "Important Notice" (the brochure
is 17 pages long), will simply write the check like they do every other
year, and will end up with a big gap in their coverage. And their
insurance agent won't take the trouble to call them or write them a
personal letter telling about the big gap that just opened up in their
coverage. So, look out! And warn your friends.

Ham



1. The valet company should have their own insurance.

Doesn't mean someone won't sue both of you...and collect because of an
idiotic jury.


2. Don't loan your car or boat to anyone outside your family.


In-laws? Parents? Brother? Not practical.


3. Why should the insurance company cover anyone but you and your
family?


Because they're insuring the vehicle.


See my response to Gene. You are confusing the main policy with the
umbrella policy.

"JimH" ask wrote in message
...

"Hamish" wrote in message
ink.net...
I am in California. I just got the renewal bill for my personal umbrella
policy, and the "Important Notice" brochure that always comes with it
said, "The definition of insured is revised so that a person or
organization using an insured's auto, RV or watercraft is no longer
covered." So, when I let a valet park my car, he's not covered. If I
loan my car to a friend, relative, or neighbor, they're not covered. If
my ski boat was running - it isn't right now - and I let a friend drive it
to tow me, he's not covered. (Yes, I know that my "underlying" car
insurance covers them up to the limits of that policy, but those limits
are only enough to pay for a stubbed toe.)

I called my agent and she was totally unaware of the change, and asked me
to fax her a copy of the brochure. Then, once she called the
underwriters, she still seemed unconcerned. She was happy to quote me
the increase in premiums to bring each of my car polcies up to the same
limits that were formerly covered by the Umbrella. An additional $206
per year. I will pay the money, because I own a home and it is vital that
I remain insured up to a high limit.

I have taken the trouble to write this post because I think that a lot of
other people will fail to read the "Important Notice" (the brochure is 17
pages long), will simply write the check like they do every other year,
and will end up with a big gap in their coverage. And their insurance
agent won't take the trouble to call them or write them a personal letter
telling about the big gap that just opened up in their coverage. So,
look out! And warn your friends.

Ham



1. The valet company should have their own insurance.

2. Don't loan your car or boat to anyone outside your family.

3. Why should the insurance company cover anyone but you and your family?

So what is the big deal?


Someone steals your car. You are liable for the damage the car causes.
That is one reason to have an umbrella or high limit coverage if you have
large asset base. My secretary years ago told of her boyfriend getting sued
because his motorhome ran into another auto while in the dealership being
serviced. If you do not get enough money from the dealership, you also sue
the owner of the vehicle.

Gene Kearns wrote in
:

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:21:12 -0400, "JimH" ask penned the
following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:


"Hamish" wrote in message
hlink.net...
I am in California. I just got the renewal bill for my personal
umbrella policy, and the "Important Notice" brochure that always
comes with it said, "The definition of insured is revised so that a
person or organization using an insured's auto, RV or watercraft is
no longer covered." So, when I let a valet park my car, he's not
covered. If I loan my car to a friend, relative, or neighbor,
they're not covered. If my ski boat was running - it isn't right now
- and I let a friend drive it to tow me, he's not covered. (Yes, I
know that my "underlying" car insurance covers them up to the limits
of that policy, but those limits are only enough to pay for a stubbed
toe.)

I called my agent and she was totally unaware of the change, and
asked me to fax her a copy of the brochure. Then, once she called
the underwriters, she still seemed unconcerned. She was happy to
quote me the increase in premiums to bring each of my car polcies up
to the same limits that were formerly covered by the Umbrella. An
additional $206 per year. I will pay the money, because I own a home
and it is vital that I remain insured up to a high limit.

I have taken the trouble to write this post because I think that a
lot of other people will fail to read the "Important Notice" (the
brochure is 17 pages long), will simply write the check like they do
every other year, and will end up with a big gap in their coverage.
And their insurance agent won't take the trouble to call them or
write them a personal letter telling about the big gap that just
opened up in their coverage. So, look out! And warn your friends.

Ham



1. The valet company should have their own insurance.

*You* pay insurance premiums to make sure *you* are covered. Don't
assume that anybody else has you covered (they don't, though they may
try to indemnify themselves). If you have to take them to court, be
sure that you can afford all of the justice that you feel you are
entitled to....

2. Don't loan your car or boat to anyone outside your family.

Ok, I'll buy that, but it doesn't cover any non-loaner legitimate use
of your vehicle. Boats? Marina re-positioning your boat to another
slip (see? says they can do it in the lease agreement..... Personal
injury? You have a dangerous boat! Damage? See no evil, hear no
evil...... see #1 above)

3. Why should the insurance company cover anyone but you and your
family?

Because there *are* no-loaner issues to be dealt with....

So what is the big deal?

You have equity that other people want.... it really is a BIG DEAL!


While admittedly, I don't have the policy you are describing, so I can't
read it, I think you are misconstruing the change. What State Farm is
saying I believe is that your friend who borrows your boat is no longer
an insured on the umbrella, so if he borrows it and kills someone, no
insurance for him, at least from State Farm. But that doesn't mean that
you aren't still an insured if someone sues you as the owner of the boat
(they would probably claim you were negligent to loan the boat to someone
so obviously unskilled). You are still an insured. Same with the car. In
California, car owners are liable for injuries caused by their car no
matter what, even if not negligent and not driving, up to $15K for injury
to one person and $30K for injury to multiple persons and $5K for
property damange. Thus if you loan your car to someone who causes an
injury or damage, your auto insurance will cover you up to these limits
(by law). But if the umbrella insurance company made your friend an
insured, they would have to pay up to the limits of the insurance,
because your friend's liablility (assuming he is found to be the
negligent driver)is not limited. So by eliminating your friend as an
insured, they limit their liability. It's really your friend who is
screwed here, not you. Moral of the story, YOU should never borrow
someone else's car or boat unless you are sure YOUR insurace covers you.

"akheel" wrote in message
...
Gene Kearns wrote in
:

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:21:12 -0400, "JimH" ask penned the
following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:


"Hamish" wrote in message
thlink.net...
I am in California. I just got the renewal bill for my personal
umbrella policy, and the "Important Notice" brochure that always
comes with it said, "The definition of insured is revised so that a
person or organization using an insured's auto, RV or watercraft is
no longer covered." So, when I let a valet park my car, he's not
covered. If I loan my car to a friend, relative, or neighbor,
they're not covered. If my ski boat was running - it isn't right now
- and I let a friend drive it to tow me, he's not covered. (Yes, I
know that my "underlying" car insurance covers them up to the limits
of that policy, but those limits are only enough to pay for a stubbed
toe.)

I called my agent and she was totally unaware of the change, and
asked me to fax her a copy of the brochure. Then, once she called
the underwriters, she still seemed unconcerned. She was happy to
quote me the increase in premiums to bring each of my car polcies up
to the same limits that were formerly covered by the Umbrella. An
additional $206 per year. I will pay the money, because I own a home
and it is vital that I remain insured up to a high limit.

I have taken the trouble to write this post because I think that a
lot of other people will fail to read the "Important Notice" (the
brochure is 17 pages long), will simply write the check like they do
every other year, and will end up with a big gap in their coverage.
And their insurance agent won't take the trouble to call them or
write them a personal letter telling about the big gap that just
opened up in their coverage. So, look out! And warn your friends.

Ham



1. The valet company should have their own insurance.

*You* pay insurance premiums to make sure *you* are covered. Don't
assume that anybody else has you covered (they don't, though they may
try to indemnify themselves). If you have to take them to court, be
sure that you can afford all of the justice that you feel you are
entitled to....

2. Don't loan your car or boat to anyone outside your family.

Ok, I'll buy that, but it doesn't cover any non-loaner legitimate use
of your vehicle. Boats? Marina re-positioning your boat to another
slip (see? says they can do it in the lease agreement..... Personal
injury? You have a dangerous boat! Damage? See no evil, hear no
evil...... see #1 above)

3. Why should the insurance company cover anyone but you and your
family?

Because there *are* no-loaner issues to be dealt with....

So what is the big deal?

You have equity that other people want.... it really is a BIG DEAL!


While admittedly, I don't have the policy you are describing, so I can't
read it, I think you are misconstruing the change. What State Farm is
saying I believe is that your friend who borrows your boat is no longer
an insured on the umbrella, so if he borrows it and kills someone, no
insurance for him, at least from State Farm. But that doesn't mean that
you aren't still an insured if someone sues you as the owner of the boat
(they would probably claim you were negligent to loan the boat to someone
so obviously unskilled). You are still an insured. Same with the car. In
California, car owners are liable for injuries caused by their car no
matter what, even if not negligent and not driving, up to $15K for injury
to one person and $30K for injury to multiple persons and $5K for
property damange. Thus if you loan your car to someone who causes an
injury or damage, your auto insurance will cover you up to these limits
(by law). But if the umbrella insurance company made your friend an
insured, they would have to pay up to the limits of the insurance,
because your friend's liablility (assuming he is found to be the
negligent driver)is not limited. So by eliminating your friend as an
insured, they limit their liability. It's really your friend who is
screwed here, not you. Moral of the story, YOU should never borrow
someone else's car or boat unless you are sure YOUR insurace covers you.

California minimum insurance is 15/30 (I think it is 20/40 now). But if you
own the car and own a house and stock, you will be sued for those items by
the killed persons heirs. You have the deep pockets and are the owner of
the car.

"Calif Bill" wrote in
ink.net:


"akheel" wrote in message
...
Gene Kearns wrote in
:

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:21:12 -0400, "JimH" ask penned
the following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:


"Hamish" wrote in message
rthlink.net...
I am in California. I just got the renewal bill for my personal
umbrella policy, and the "Important Notice" brochure that always
comes with it said, "The definition of insured is revised so that a
person or organization using an insured's auto, RV or watercraft is
no longer covered." So, when I let a valet park my car, he's not
covered. If I loan my car to a friend, relative, or neighbor,
they're not covered. If my ski boat was running - it isn't right
now - and I let a friend drive it to tow me, he's not covered.
(Yes, I know that my "underlying" car insurance covers them up to
the limits of that policy, but those limits are only enough to pay
for a stubbed toe.)

I called my agent and she was totally unaware of the change, and
asked me to fax her a copy of the brochure. Then, once she called
the underwriters, she still seemed unconcerned. She was happy to
quote me the increase in premiums to bring each of my car polcies
up to the same limits that were formerly covered by the Umbrella.
An additional $206 per year. I will pay the money, because I own a
home and it is vital that I remain insured up to a high limit.

I have taken the trouble to write this post because I think that a
lot of other people will fail to read the "Important Notice" (the
brochure is 17 pages long), will simply write the check like they
do every other year, and will end up with a big gap in their
coverage. And their insurance agent won't take the trouble to call
them or write them a personal letter telling about the big gap
that just opened up in their coverage. So, look out! And warn
your friends.

Ham



1. The valet company should have their own insurance.

*You* pay insurance premiums to make sure *you* are covered. Don't
assume that anybody else has you covered (they don't, though they
may try to indemnify themselves). If you have to take them to court,
be sure that you can afford all of the justice that you feel you are
entitled to....

2. Don't loan your car or boat to anyone outside your family.

Ok, I'll buy that, but it doesn't cover any non-loaner legitimate
use of your vehicle. Boats? Marina re-positioning your boat to
another slip (see? says they can do it in the lease agreement.....
Personal injury? You have a dangerous boat! Damage? See no evil,
hear no evil...... see #1 above)

3. Why should the insurance company cover anyone but you and your
family?

Because there *are* no-loaner issues to be dealt with....

So what is the big deal?

You have equity that other people want.... it really is a BIG DEAL!


While admittedly, I don't have the policy you are describing, so I
can't read it, I think you are misconstruing the change. What State
Farm is saying I believe is that your friend who borrows your boat is
no longer an insured on the umbrella, so if he borrows it and kills
someone, no insurance for him, at least from State Farm. But that
doesn't mean that you aren't still an insured if someone sues you as
the owner of the boat (they would probably claim you were negligent
to loan the boat to someone so obviously unskilled). You are still an
insured. Same with the car. In California, car owners are liable for
injuries caused by their car no matter what, even if not negligent
and not driving, up to $15K for injury to one person and $30K for
injury to multiple persons and $5K for property damange. Thus if you
loan your car to someone who causes an injury or damage, your auto
insurance will cover you up to these limits (by law). But if the
umbrella insurance company made your friend an insured, they would
have to pay up to the limits of the insurance, because your friend's
liablility (assuming he is found to be the negligent driver)is not
limited. So by eliminating your friend as an insured, they limit
their liability. It's really your friend who is screwed here, not
you. Moral of the story, YOU should never borrow someone else's car
or boat unless you are sure YOUR insurace covers you.

California minimum insurance is 15/30 (I think it is 20/40 now). But
if you own the car and own a house and stock, you will be sued for
those items by the killed persons heirs. You have the deep pockets
and are the owner of the car.


Yes, agree completely. But the original poster's complaint was his belief
that by excluding a friend who borrows his car as an "insured" under his
umbrella policy, that somehow left the O.P exposed. The O.P is still
covered when the inevitable lawsuit comes, his friend is not. So
increasing the limits on his underlying policies is a complete waste of
money as far as coverage on himself is concerned.

"akheel" wrote in message
...
"Calif Bill" wrote in
ink.net:


"akheel" wrote in message
...
Gene Kearns wrote in
:

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:21:12 -0400, "JimH" ask penned
the following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:


"Hamish" wrote in message
arthlink.net...
I am in California. I just got the renewal bill for my personal
umbrella policy, and the "Important Notice" brochure that always
comes with it said, "The definition of insured is revised so that a
person or organization using an insured's auto, RV or watercraft is
no longer covered." So, when I let a valet park my car, he's not
covered. If I loan my car to a friend, relative, or neighbor,
they're not covered. If my ski boat was running - it isn't right
now - and I let a friend drive it to tow me, he's not covered.
(Yes, I know that my "underlying" car insurance covers them up to
the limits of that policy, but those limits are only enough to pay
for a stubbed toe.)

I called my agent and she was totally unaware of the change, and
asked me to fax her a copy of the brochure. Then, once she called
the underwriters, she still seemed unconcerned. She was happy to
quote me the increase in premiums to bring each of my car polcies
up to the same limits that were formerly covered by the Umbrella.
An additional $206 per year. I will pay the money, because I own a
home and it is vital that I remain insured up to a high limit.

I have taken the trouble to write this post because I think that a
lot of other people will fail to read the "Important Notice" (the
brochure is 17 pages long), will simply write the check like they
do every other year, and will end up with a big gap in their
coverage. And their insurance agent won't take the trouble to call
them or write them a personal letter telling about the big gap
that just opened up in their coverage. So, look out! And warn
your friends.

Ham



1. The valet company should have their own insurance.

*You* pay insurance premiums to make sure *you* are covered. Don't
assume that anybody else has you covered (they don't, though they
may try to indemnify themselves). If you have to take them to court,
be sure that you can afford all of the justice that you feel you are
entitled to....

2. Don't loan your car or boat to anyone outside your family.

Ok, I'll buy that, but it doesn't cover any non-loaner legitimate
use of your vehicle. Boats? Marina re-positioning your boat to
another slip (see? says they can do it in the lease agreement.....
Personal injury? You have a dangerous boat! Damage? See no evil,
hear no evil...... see #1 above)

3. Why should the insurance company cover anyone but you and your
family?

Because there *are* no-loaner issues to be dealt with....

So what is the big deal?

You have equity that other people want.... it really is a BIG DEAL!


While admittedly, I don't have the policy you are describing, so I
can't read it, I think you are misconstruing the change. What State
Farm is saying I believe is that your friend who borrows your boat is
no longer an insured on the umbrella, so if he borrows it and kills
someone, no insurance for him, at least from State Farm. But that
doesn't mean that you aren't still an insured if someone sues you as
the owner of the boat (they would probably claim you were negligent
to loan the boat to someone so obviously unskilled). You are still an
insured. Same with the car. In California, car owners are liable for
injuries caused by their car no matter what, even if not negligent
and not driving, up to $15K for injury to one person and $30K for
injury to multiple persons and $5K for property damange. Thus if you
loan your car to someone who causes an injury or damage, your auto
insurance will cover you up to these limits (by law). But if the
umbrella insurance company made your friend an insured, they would
have to pay up to the limits of the insurance, because your friend's
liablility (assuming he is found to be the negligent driver)is not
limited. So by eliminating your friend as an insured, they limit
their liability. It's really your friend who is screwed here, not
you. Moral of the story, YOU should never borrow someone else's car
or boat unless you are sure YOUR insurace covers you.

California minimum insurance is 15/30 (I think it is 20/40 now). But
if you own the car and own a house and stock, you will be sued for
those items by the killed persons heirs. You have the deep pockets
and are the owner of the car.


Yes, agree completely. But the original poster's complaint was his belief
that by excluding a friend who borrows his car as an "insured" under his
umbrella policy, that somehow left the O.P exposed. The O.P is still
covered when the inevitable lawsuit comes, his friend is not. So
increasing the limits on his underlying policies is a complete waste of
money as far as coverage on himself is concerned.


BINGO! Give that man a ceegar!

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 06:29:07 -0400, "JimH" ask wrote:


Yes, agree completely. But the original poster's complaint was his
belief
that by excluding a friend who borrows his car as an "insured" under his
umbrella policy, that somehow left the O.P exposed. The O.P is still
covered when the inevitable lawsuit comes, his friend is not. So
increasing the limits on his underlying policies is a complete waste of
money as far as coverage on himself is concerned.


BINGO! Give that man a ceegar!


Ok..... then, is the friend covered by any sort of insurance that *he*
purchased?
--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.


I will defer this for Calf Bill to answer based on his expertise in the area
of personal insurance. Let's see what he has to say on this. ;-)