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John H, RCE and MC riders everywhere...
Forgot to mention this yesterday.
I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in Plainfield. I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong. Not that there is anything wrong with that. :) And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion. EXCELSIOR!! :) |
John H, RCE and MC riders everywhere...
On Jun 2, 7:45 am, John H. wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 10:50:37 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: Forgot to mention this yesterday. I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in Plainfield. I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong. Not that there is anything wrong with that. :) And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion. EXCELSIOR!! :) Well, if they don't teach you to countersteer, you've wasted your money and time. No, neither of us were wrong. Good luck with the course.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - You have to countersteer, otherwise you'll hit the port side of the slip! |
John H, RCE and MC riders everywhere...
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... Forgot to mention this yesterday. I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in Plainfield. I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong. Not that there is anything wrong with that. :) And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion. EXCELSIOR!! :) I just came back from a morning walk/jog and decided to take the bicycle out for a ride and test the steering issue on it. Thought it would be a good idea to check the air in the tires, but it has weird valve stems that I've never seen before and a conventional tire gauge fitting doesn't fit on it. I inadvertently let all the air out of the front tire fooling around with it. The bike's a Trek Hybrid. I guess I'll have to go back to the dealer later and get whatever I need to fill it back up. I'll submit my steering results later. Eisboch |
John H, RCE and MC riders everywhere...
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... Forgot to mention this yesterday. I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in Plainfield. I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong. Not that there is anything wrong with that. :) And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion. EXCELSIOR!! :) How would you like your crow cooked? Eisboch |
John H, RCE and MC riders everywhere...
On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 08:00:38 -0400, "RCE" wrote:
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message .. . Forgot to mention this yesterday. I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in Plainfield. I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong. Not that there is anything wrong with that. :) And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion. EXCELSIOR!! :) How would you like your crow cooked? Medium rare without the feathers if you would. Assuming, of course, that I am wrong. And we all know that NEVER happens... :) |
John H, RCE and MC riders everywhere...
On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 07:54:20 -0400, "RCE" wrote:
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message .. . Forgot to mention this yesterday. I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in Plainfield. I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong. Not that there is anything wrong with that. :) And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion. EXCELSIOR!! :) I just came back from a morning walk/jog and decided to take the bicycle out for a ride and test the steering issue on it. Thought it would be a good idea to check the air in the tires, but it has weird valve stems that I've never seen before and a conventional tire gauge fitting doesn't fit on it. I inadvertently let all the air out of the front tire fooling around with it. The bike's a Trek Hybrid. I guess I'll have to go back to the dealer later and get whatever I need to fill it back up. I'll submit my steering results later. I would be very interested in comparing your results with mine. I'm willing to admit that I'm not doing something right, but I can't make that work for me on my bike. By the way, how do you like the Trek Hybrid? |
John H, RCE and MC riders everywhere...
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 11:53:40 -0000, Tim wrote:
You have to countersteer, otherwise you'll hit the port side of the slip! Kind of reminds me of a song. Or not. |
John H, RCE and MC riders everywhere...
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... Forgot to mention this yesterday. I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in Plainfield. I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong. Not that there is anything wrong with that. :) And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion. EXCELSIOR!! :) (Your fortune cookie for today) "You are a seeker of truth. You will be enlightened." |
John H, RCE and MC riders everywhere...
"RCE" wrote in message ... "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... Forgot to mention this yesterday. I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in Plainfield. I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong. Not that there is anything wrong with that. :) And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion. EXCELSIOR!! :) I just came back from a morning walk/jog and decided to take the bicycle out for a ride and test the steering issue on it. Thought it would be a good idea to check the air in the tires, but it has weird valve stems that I've never seen before and a conventional tire gauge fitting doesn't fit on it. I inadvertently let all the air out of the front tire fooling around with it. The bike's a Trek Hybrid. I guess I'll have to go back to the dealer later and get whatever I need to fill it back up. I'll submit my steering results later. Eisboch Remember not to be a speed demon.................keep it to a normal speed. ;-) |
John H, RCE and MC riders everywhere...
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... By the way, how do you like the Trek Hybrid? Haven't really used it enough to form an opinion, plus I don't know that much about modern bicycles. When I was looking for a new bicycle, the Trek name was recommended in many reviews, so I decided on it. It *is* reasonably comfortable and so far seems to be well made. The Hybrid is designed for both road use and casual off-road trail use. It can be converted to a true "mountain bike" by changing the rims and tires. I doubt I'll ever need to. Trek is either the last, or one of the last American made bicycles. The big names (Schwinn, etc.) are mostly importers now of bikes built in China. Lance Armstrong used a Trek in several of his Tour de France victories. Despite 7 months of daily, fairly rigorous exercise, bicycle pedaling uses a whole new combination of muscles and takes some getting used to. Eisboch |
John H, RCE and MC riders everywhere...
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 10:50:37 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote: Forgot to mention this yesterday. I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in Plainfield. I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong. Not that there is anything wrong with that. :) And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion. EXCELSIOR!! :) Well, if they don't teach you to countersteer, you've wasted your money and time. No, neither of us were wrong. Good luck with the course. |
John H, RCE and MC riders everywhere...
RCE wrote:
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... By the way, how do you like the Trek Hybrid? Haven't really used it enough to form an opinion, plus I don't know that much about modern bicycles. When I was looking for a new bicycle, the Trek name was recommended in many reviews, so I decided on it. It *is* reasonably comfortable and so far seems to be well made. The Hybrid is designed for both road use and casual off-road trail use. It can be converted to a true "mountain bike" by changing the rims and tires. I doubt I'll ever need to. Trek is either the last, or one of the last American made bicycles. The big names (Schwinn, etc.) are mostly importers now of bikes built in China. Lance Armstrong used a Trek in several of his Tour de France victories. Despite 7 months of daily, fairly rigorous exercise, bicycle pedaling uses a whole new combination of muscles and takes some getting used to. Eisboch The frame might be made in the USA, but I'll bet many of the pieces and parts are not. Shimano? Naw. Bontrager? Well, some of his stuff is still made in the USA, but most is not. Tires? Unlikely. But a Trek is a damned nice bike. |
John H, RCE and MC riders everywhere...
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 12:05:51 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote: On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 07:54:20 -0400, "RCE" wrote: "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message . .. Forgot to mention this yesterday. I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in Plainfield. I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong. Not that there is anything wrong with that. :) And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion. EXCELSIOR!! :) I just came back from a morning walk/jog and decided to take the bicycle out for a ride and test the steering issue on it. Thought it would be a good idea to check the air in the tires, but it has weird valve stems that I've never seen before and a conventional tire gauge fitting doesn't fit on it. I inadvertently let all the air out of the front tire fooling around with it. The bike's a Trek Hybrid. I guess I'll have to go back to the dealer later and get whatever I need to fill it back up. I'll submit my steering results later. I would be very interested in comparing your results with mine. I'm willing to admit that I'm not doing something right, but I can't make that work for me on my bike. By the way, how do you like the Trek Hybrid? Try steering with one hand, and lean only with the bike so as not to introduce something else into the game. My gosh, I've put up numerous sites supporting the idea. Do you think they're there as a joke? We want you to stay alive!! |
The great debate is over
"RCE" wrote in message ... "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... Forgot to mention this yesterday. I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in Plainfield. I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong. Not that there is anything wrong with that. :) And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion. EXCELSIOR!! :) How would you like your crow cooked? Eisboch Medium rare for me: http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~fa...g/Steering.htm http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html Looks like countersteering is the initial process in turning a bicycle as one *has* to lean into the turn, even at slow speeds (where the lean is not obvious). My apologies to you and John. ;-) |
John H, RCE and MC riders everywhere...
On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 07:54:20 -0400, "RCE" wrote:
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message .. . Forgot to mention this yesterday. I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in Plainfield. I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong. Not that there is anything wrong with that. :) And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion. EXCELSIOR!! :) I just came back from a morning walk/jog and decided to take the bicycle out for a ride and test the steering issue on it. Thought it would be a good idea to check the air in the tires, but it has weird valve stems that I've never seen before and a conventional tire gauge fitting doesn't fit on it. I inadvertently let all the air out of the front tire fooling around with it. The bike's a Trek Hybrid. I guess I'll have to go back to the dealer later and get whatever I need to fill it back up. I'll submit my steering results later. Eisboch Here's an exercise in avoidance maneuvering (using countersteering) you can do on the HD. Follow behind a car, using a 2 second interval (always) between you and the car in front. Ride in the center of the lane. As you're following the car, you'll notice sewer covers, gas line covers, etc., as they come from beneath the car. Use countersteering to swerve and avoid the covers, or anything else that pops up from underneath the car. This is a good exercise in city traffic. It will help you miss the chunk of 4 x 4 that fell off the truck in front of you while on the highway! |
The great debate is over
On Jun 2, 10:54 am, John H. wrote:
On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 09:27:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote: "RCE" wrote in message m... "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message . .. Forgot to mention this yesterday. I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in Plainfield. I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong. Not that there is anything wrong with that. :) And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion. EXCELSIOR!! :) How would you like your crow cooked? Eisboch Medium rare for me: http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~fa...g/Steering.htm http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html Looks like countersteering is the initial process in turning a bicycle as one *has* to lean into the turn, even at slow speeds (where the lean is not obvious). My apologies to you and John. ;-) BTW, I think Terry Colon is wrong, partially, in his description of bicycle steering. Therefore, I sent him the following email: " Your article on countersteering was used in a usegroup as proof that it exists. In your article, you state that countersteering isn't used much with bicycles, because leaning the body is sufficient to get the bike turning. (http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html) I disagree. I believe that leaning the body, without changing the geometry of the arms, does initiate a countersteer which turns the bicycle. If you lean left, and don't bend your left elbow to compensate, you will push on the left handlebar, thus countersteering. Try riding your bicycle and leaning while keeping the bike in a straight direction. It is very easy to do. You'll notice that you compensate for the lean with the geometry of your arms, ensuring that you don't countersteer. Thanks for your articles, by the way. John Herring Motorcyclist- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Well I been kinda' busy the last few days looking for a new boat so I have not followed this much, I do need to come in here quickly as I have a little experience in this field having had my bike licence for over 30 years now. I was riding one dark night back in the mid 80's, middle of winter riding to work. I hit a huge chunk of ice/slush that had frozen to the road, about the size of a cinder block. It knocked my front end sharply to the left, turning my wheel left and started to deposit me down to the right as will happen when a front tire looses grip on a bike. Loosening up my grip preparing to eat asphalt my front end caught and kicked the tire around to the right, now the bike is turning right and laying down to the left, again the tire, because of the rake of the fork kicked to the left, kicking the bike upright and back to the left. This wobble continued about 3-5 times until the bike stood itself right up again. I pulled over and cleaned my pants. The reverse lean steer saved my ass from a bad hit and it was only because of the geometry of the bike that it happened, call it reverse steer, call it great engineering, either way it was one time I f*****d up and did not eat pavement.. |
John H, RCE and MC riders everywhere...
On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 08:14:21 -0400, "JimH" wrote:
"RCE" wrote in message m... "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... Forgot to mention this yesterday. I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in Plainfield. I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong. Not that there is anything wrong with that. :) And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion. EXCELSIOR!! :) I just came back from a morning walk/jog and decided to take the bicycle out for a ride and test the steering issue on it. Thought it would be a good idea to check the air in the tires, but it has weird valve stems that I've never seen before and a conventional tire gauge fitting doesn't fit on it. I inadvertently let all the air out of the front tire fooling around with it. The bike's a Trek Hybrid. I guess I'll have to go back to the dealer later and get whatever I need to fill it back up. I'll submit my steering results later. Eisboch Remember not to be a speed demon.................keep it to a normal speed. ;-) Countersteering is used at any speed, above walking. Here, learn something new - especially read the last two paragraphs... Lean by countersteering When riding a bicycle or a motorcycle, countersteering is a method of initiating a turn by a small, momentary turn of the front wheel, usually via the handlebars, in the opposite (counter) direction. Like the book example above, this moves the pivot point (the wheels' contact patches) out from under the center of mass to establish the lean angle for a turn. While necessary at all speeds, the need to countersteer becomes more noticeable as speed increases. Hence, if a rider wants to turn to the right, he first throws the bike off balance by momentarily pointing the front wheel slightly to the left. The center of mass of the bike plus rider will continue in a straight line, but the contact patches of the tires move to the left with respect to this straight line. Once lean is achieved As the desired angle is approached, the rider must then steer into the turn to maintain that angle or the bike continue to lean with gravity increasing the rate until the side contacts the ground. As roll momentum and gravity then tip the bike over to the side, the front wheel must be steered into the curve, and the curve is negotiated with the proper inward lean. This process usually requires little physical effort, because the geometry of the steering system of most bikes is designed in such a way that the front wheel has a strong tendency to steer in the direction of a lean. Adjusting or exiting a turn Once in a turn, countersteering is again required to make changes to its shape. The only way to decrease the radius at the same speed is to increase the lean angle, and the only way to increase the lean angle, is again to momentarily steer opposite to the direction of the curve. To the untrained, this can be extremely counter-intuitive. To exit a turn, countersteer by momentarily steering further in the direction of the turn. This tilts the bike back upright. At low speeds At low speeds countersteering is equally necessary, but the countersteering is then so subtle that it drowns in the continuous corrections that are made in balancing the bike, often falling below a just noticeable difference or threshold of perception of the rider. Unconscious behavior Countersteering is indispensable for bike steering. Most people are not consciously aware that they employ countersteering when riding their bike any more then they are aware of the physics of walking. Their body has learned to include the well timed countersteering jolt. They may have learned to do so while learning to ride a bicycle in childhood. Often people simply assume that the steering of a bike is just like the steering of a car. Their unconscious balance skills know better. As is well-known in bicycle racing, the countersteering phenomenon becomes evident when there is an obstacle preventing the wheel from countersteering, e.g., when closely overlapping wheels or riding very close to a curb. In these situations, the only way to initiate a turn away from the obstacle is to come into contact with it, that is, turn towards the wheel or curb in order to avoid crashing into it.[3] Lack of understanding of this principle leads to accidents in novice bicycle races. From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering |
The great debate is over
On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 09:27:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote:
"RCE" wrote in message m... "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... Forgot to mention this yesterday. I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in Plainfield. I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong. Not that there is anything wrong with that. :) And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion. EXCELSIOR!! :) How would you like your crow cooked? Eisboch Medium rare for me: http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~fa...g/Steering.htm http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html Looks like countersteering is the initial process in turning a bicycle as one *has* to lean into the turn, even at slow speeds (where the lean is not obvious). My apologies to you and John. ;-) I assume that applies to all the name-calling also? |
The great debate is over
On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 09:27:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote:
"RCE" wrote in message m... "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... Forgot to mention this yesterday. I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in Plainfield. I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong. Not that there is anything wrong with that. :) And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion. EXCELSIOR!! :) How would you like your crow cooked? Eisboch Medium rare for me: http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~fa...g/Steering.htm http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html Looks like countersteering is the initial process in turning a bicycle as one *has* to lean into the turn, even at slow speeds (where the lean is not obvious). My apologies to you and John. ;-) BTW, I think Terry Colon is wrong, partially, in his description of bicycle steering. Therefore, I sent him the following email: " Your article on countersteering was used in a usegroup as proof that it exists. In your article, you state that countersteering isn't used much with bicycles, because leaning the body is sufficient to get the bike turning. (http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html ) I disagree. I believe that leaning the body, without changing the geometry of the arms, does initiate a countersteer which turns the bicycle. If you lean left, and don't bend your left elbow to compensate, you will push on the left handlebar, thus countersteering. Try riding your bicycle and leaning while keeping the bike in a straight direction. It is very easy to do. You'll notice that you compensate for the lean with the geometry of your arms, ensuring that you don't countersteer. Thanks for your articles, by the way. John Herring Motorcyclist |
John H, RCE and MC riders everywhere...
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 09:09:53 -0500, John H. wrote:
Follow behind a car, using a 2 second interval (always) between you and the car in front. Ride in the center of the lane. As you're following the car, you'll notice sewer covers, gas line covers, etc., as they come from beneath the car. Use countersteering to swerve and avoid the covers, or anything else that pops up from underneath the car. This is a good exercise in city traffic. It will help you miss the chunk of 4 x 4 that fell off the truck in front of you while on the highway! With all due respect, I question the safety of this exercise. First, I would never ride in the center of the lane. That's where all the oils, nails, and other road debris accumulate. Ride in the left or right track. The road is generally cleaner. Your visibility to other drivers is enhanced, and you have slightly more escape paths. Secondly, concentrating on someones' taillights is bad driving practice. Concentrating on what comes out from underneath someones' car is even worse. You should be looking farther down the road to enable reacting to what the driver ahead of you is reacting to. It's also my experience that city driving, in traffic, is far more dangerous, and takes far more concentration and awareness than highway driving. It seems to me, your exercise only increases the risk. There are far better places to practice counter-steering. |
The great debate is over
On Jun 2, 11:32 am, John H. wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 07:15:57 -0700, wrote: On Jun 2, 10:54 am, John H. wrote: On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 09:27:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote: "RCE" wrote in message m... "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message . .. Forgot to mention this yesterday. I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in Plainfield. I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong. Not that there is anything wrong with that. :) And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion. EXCELSIOR!! :) How would you like your crow cooked? Eisboch Medium rare for me: http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~fa...g/Steering.htm http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html Looks like countersteering is the initial process in turning a bicycle as one *has* to lean into the turn, even at slow speeds (where the lean is not obvious). My apologies to you and John. ;-) BTW, I think Terry Colon is wrong, partially, in his description of bicycle steering. Therefore, I sent him the following email: " Your article on countersteering was used in a usegroup as proof that it exists. In your article, you state that countersteering isn't used much with bicycles, because leaning the body is sufficient to get the bike turning. (http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html) I disagree. I believe that leaning the body, without changing the geometry of the arms, does initiate a countersteer which turns the bicycle. If you lean left, and don't bend your left elbow to compensate, you will push on the left handlebar, thus countersteering. Try riding your bicycle and leaning while keeping the bike in a straight direction. It is very easy to do. You'll notice that you compensate for the lean with the geometry of your arms, ensuring that you don't countersteer. Thanks for your articles, by the way. John Herring Motorcyclist- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Well I been kinda' busy the last few days looking for a new boat so I have not followed this much, I do need to come in here quickly as I have a little experience in this field having had my bike licence for over 30 years now. I was riding one dark night back in the mid 80's, middle of winter riding to work. I hit a huge chunk of ice/slush that had frozen to the road, about the size of a cinder block. It knocked my front end sharply to the left, turning my wheel left and started to deposit me down to the right as will happen when a front tire looses grip on a bike. Loosening up my grip preparing to eat asphalt my front end caught and kicked the tire around to the right, now the bike is turning right and laying down to the left, again the tire, because of the rake of the fork kicked to the left, kicking the bike upright and back to the left. This wobble continued about 3-5 times until the bike stood itself right up again. I pulled over and cleaned my pants. The reverse lean steer saved my ass from a bad hit and it was only because of the geometry of the bike that it happened, call it reverse steer, call it great engineering, either way it was one time I f*****d up and did not eat pavement.. Those 'death wobbles' are bad news. I got forced off the road by a semi out near Richland, WA. Hit a bunch of loose gravel. The wobble started, but I had no idea, at the time, how to get out of it. So, the bike and I went down, skidded for a looooonnng ways, and did a lot of damage to me *and* the bike. (Like a total dumb ass, I wasn't wearing leathers or even a shirt. Hell, I was trying to get a suntan!)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - If your gonna wear skin, you might as well just get in a car ;) |
The great debate is over
"JimH" wrote in message ... http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~fa...g/Steering.htm http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html Looks like countersteering is the initial process in turning a bicycle as one *has* to lean into the turn, even at slow speeds (where the lean is not obvious). My apologies to you and John. ;-) No apologies necessary, to me anyway. You said nothing to offend me. Ok ... got air in the tire on the bicycle finally and pedaled off down our long, sloping driveway. To my surprise, although the effect is there, it is very subtle when compared to that on the Harley, so much so that I had to try it over and over to convince myself it was there. There is absolutely no question on the Harley .. a gentle push will initiate a major course change, but not so on the bicycle. I tried at various speeds up to 14 mph and didn't notice a whole lot of difference. The effect *is* there, but you actually have to be looking for it to notice and to not confuse it with other balance issues. I can clearly see why a non-motorcyclist like ShortWave could hop on a bicycle looking to experience countersteering and wondering what the heck we were talking about. I also have a new theory. I suspect that countersteering is more pronounced the heavier the two-wheeled vehicle is. On the 1000 lb Harley (bike and rider) the effect is very pronounced. I suspect a smaller, lighter dirt bike would not exhibit the effect to the same degree. Anyway, I do it all the time on the motorcycle. As JohnH pointed out it's a natural reaction to avoiding a rock or muffler or something in the road ahead that's coming up fast when cruising along at 70 mph. Eisboch |
The great debate is over
wrote in message ups.com... Well I been kinda' busy the last few days looking for a new boat so I have not followed this much, I do need to come in here quickly as I have a little experience in this field having had my bike licence for over 30 years now. I was riding one dark night back in the mid 80's, middle of winter riding to work. I hit a huge chunk of ice/slush that had frozen to the road, about the size of a cinder block. It knocked my front end sharply to the left, turning my wheel left and started to deposit me down to the right as will happen when a front tire looses grip on a bike. Loosening up my grip preparing to eat asphalt my front end caught and kicked the tire around to the right, now the bike is turning right and laying down to the left, again the tire, because of the rake of the fork kicked to the left, kicking the bike upright and back to the left. This wobble continued about 3-5 times until the bike stood itself right up again. I pulled over and cleaned my pants. The reverse lean steer saved my ass from a bad hit and it was only because of the geometry of the bike that it happened, call it reverse steer, call it great engineering, either way it was one time I f*****d up and did not eat pavement.. There have been highway accidents due to "wobble" loss of control. They are usually caused by riding too fast while navigating a long, sloping turn in the road and suddenly de-accelerating for some reason. I've never experienced it (hope I never will) but have been told that if it starts, hit the throttle to maintain control and slow down more slowly. Eisboch |
The great debate is over
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 12:31:02 -0400, RCE wrote:
I also have a new theory. I suspect that countersteering is more pronounced the heavier the two-wheeled vehicle is. On the 1000 lb Harley (bike and rider) the effect is very pronounced. I suspect a smaller, lighter dirt bike would not exhibit the effect to the same degree. I suspect you are right. That big Harley front wheel has more of a gyroscopic effect, which I'm guessing is instrumental to the counter- steering phenomenon. The push left gets your left lean, but the gyroscopic effect means the wheel will straighten so you can continue your left turn. The same physics apply to a bicycle, but because of less mass they are not as pronounced. At least that's the story I'm sticking to. |
The great debate is over
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 14:05:07 -0500, John H. wrote:
Also I noted thunder's comment about the gyroscopic effect of the wheels. Terry Colon, in the reference JimH provided, commented on that: "Counter-steering tilts your motorcycle into a turn faster than you can lean it shifting your own weight by using the motorcycle's momentum to force itself into the desired tilting angle." and, "Some folks will tell you it's the gyroscopic effect of rotating the front wheel tilting your bike in counter-steering. Some folks would be wrong." John, read for content. I didn't say anything about the gyroscopic effect tilting your bike in counter-steering. It doesn't. It does straighten your wheel after the lean is accomplished. If it didn't, your wheel would continue to the right, and you would have a nice case of road rash. |
John H, RCE and MC riders everywhere...
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 15:09:57 -0000, thunder wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 09:09:53 -0500, John H. wrote: Follow behind a car, using a 2 second interval (always) between you and the car in front. Ride in the center of the lane. As you're following the car, you'll notice sewer covers, gas line covers, etc., as they come from beneath the car. Use countersteering to swerve and avoid the covers, or anything else that pops up from underneath the car. This is a good exercise in city traffic. It will help you miss the chunk of 4 x 4 that fell off the truck in front of you while on the highway! With all due respect, I question the safety of this exercise. First, I would never ride in the center of the lane. That's where all the oils, nails, and other road debris accumulate. Ride in the left or right track. The road is generally cleaner. Your visibility to other drivers is enhanced, and you have slightly more escape paths. Secondly, concentrating on someones' taillights is bad driving practice. Concentrating on what comes out from underneath someones' car is even worse. You should be looking farther down the road to enable reacting to what the driver ahead of you is reacting to. It's also my experience that city driving, in traffic, is far more dangerous, and takes far more concentration and awareness than highway driving. It seems to me, your exercise only increases the risk. There are far better places to practice counter-steering. If I felt it was unsafe, I wouldn't do it. If the traffic was heavy, I wouldn't do it. Most city roads are not full of trash in the center of the lane. Where did 'taillights' enter the picture? You're correct about looking well ahead, but a motorcyclist must also look directly in front. The eyes should be continuously looking for danger or people, or dogs. |
The great debate is over
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 08:11:59 -0700, wrote:
On Jun 2, 11:32 am, John H. wrote: On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 07:15:57 -0700, wrote: On Jun 2, 10:54 am, John H. wrote: On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 09:27:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote: "RCE" wrote in message m... "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message . .. Forgot to mention this yesterday. I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in Plainfield. I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong. Not that there is anything wrong with that. :) And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion. EXCELSIOR!! :) How would you like your crow cooked? Eisboch Medium rare for me: http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~fa...g/Steering.htm http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html Looks like countersteering is the initial process in turning a bicycle as one *has* to lean into the turn, even at slow speeds (where the lean is not obvious). My apologies to you and John. ;-) BTW, I think Terry Colon is wrong, partially, in his description of bicycle steering. Therefore, I sent him the following email: " Your article on countersteering was used in a usegroup as proof that it exists. In your article, you state that countersteering isn't used much with bicycles, because leaning the body is sufficient to get the bike turning. (http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html) I disagree. I believe that leaning the body, without changing the geometry of the arms, does initiate a countersteer which turns the bicycle. If you lean left, and don't bend your left elbow to compensate, you will push on the left handlebar, thus countersteering. Try riding your bicycle and leaning while keeping the bike in a straight direction. It is very easy to do. You'll notice that you compensate for the lean with the geometry of your arms, ensuring that you don't countersteer. Thanks for your articles, by the way. John Herring Motorcyclist- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Well I been kinda' busy the last few days looking for a new boat so I have not followed this much, I do need to come in here quickly as I have a little experience in this field having had my bike licence for over 30 years now. I was riding one dark night back in the mid 80's, middle of winter riding to work. I hit a huge chunk of ice/slush that had frozen to the road, about the size of a cinder block. It knocked my front end sharply to the left, turning my wheel left and started to deposit me down to the right as will happen when a front tire looses grip on a bike. Loosening up my grip preparing to eat asphalt my front end caught and kicked the tire around to the right, now the bike is turning right and laying down to the left, again the tire, because of the rake of the fork kicked to the left, kicking the bike upright and back to the left. This wobble continued about 3-5 times until the bike stood itself right up again. I pulled over and cleaned my pants. The reverse lean steer saved my ass from a bad hit and it was only because of the geometry of the bike that it happened, call it reverse steer, call it great engineering, either way it was one time I f*****d up and did not eat pavement.. Those 'death wobbles' are bad news. I got forced off the road by a semi out near Richland, WA. Hit a bunch of loose gravel. The wobble started, but I had no idea, at the time, how to get out of it. So, the bike and I went down, skidded for a looooonnng ways, and did a lot of damage to me *and* the bike. (Like a total dumb ass, I wasn't wearing leathers or even a shirt. Hell, I was trying to get a suntan!)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - If your gonna wear skin, you might as well just get in a car ;) ???? |
The great debate is over
John H. wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 18:28:58 -0000, thunder wrote: On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 14:05:07 -0500, John H. wrote: Also I noted thunder's comment about the gyroscopic effect of the wheels. Terry Colon, in the reference JimH provided, commented on that: "Counter-steering tilts your motorcycle into a turn faster than you can lean it shifting your own weight by using the motorcycle's momentum to force itself into the desired tilting angle." and, "Some folks will tell you it's the gyroscopic effect of rotating the front wheel tilting your bike in counter-steering. Some folks would be wrong." John, read for content. I didn't say anything about the gyroscopic effect tilting your bike in counter-steering. It doesn't. It does straighten your wheel after the lean is accomplished. If it didn't, your wheel would continue to the right, and you would have a nice case of road rash. Oh, OK. Sorry I misread what you said. You should have been around when all the name-calling was going on about whether or not countersteering even existed! It was so obvious that even JimH would finally figure it out JimH. It was nice to see him do his infamous "Opps ..... Never mind" routines. |
The great debate is over
On Jun 2, 12:39 pm, "RCE" wrote:
wrote in message ups.com... Well I been kinda' busy the last few days looking for a new boat so I have not followed this much, I do need to come in here quickly as I have a little experience in this field having had my bike licence for over 30 years now. I was riding one dark night back in the mid 80's, middle of winter riding to work. I hit a huge chunk of ice/slush that had frozen to the road, about the size of a cinder block. It knocked my front end sharply to the left, turning my wheel left and started to deposit me down to the right as will happen when a front tire looses grip on a bike. Loosening up my grip preparing to eat asphalt my front end caught and kicked the tire around to the right, now the bike is turning right and laying down to the left, again the tire, because of the rake of the fork kicked to the left, kicking the bike upright and back to the left. This wobble continued about 3-5 times until the bike stood itself right up again. I pulled over and cleaned my pants. The reverse lean steer saved my ass from a bad hit and it was only because of the geometry of the bike that it happened, call it reverse steer, call it great engineering, either way it was one time I f*****d up and did not eat pavement.. There have been highway accidents due to "wobble" loss of control. They are usually caused by riding too fast while navigating a long, sloping turn in the road and suddenly de-accelerating for some reason. I've never experienced it (hope I never will) but have been told that if it starts, hit the throttle to maintain control and slow down more slowly. Eisboch- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - We used to get that wobble coming in 84 east bound just west of the mass border, I am sure SW is familiar with the old highway. And you can not just brake to stop it, you gotta maintain throttle and come off real slow, and real out of control. My Bike used to get it at certain speeds, somewhere under 80 I think there was a band where it was real bad. The wobble I described in my almost wreck is a little different as it is at a lot slower speed (not a speed wobble) and probably more relevant to the steering stuff you guys are talking about. At about 35 mph the front forks got kicked left and the front end got knocked that way too. Having not leaned into the "turn" my front tire going left, turned left, me far right of the line of balance of the bike and heading down fast. However, in this situation the angle behind the area of straight force of the front tire was becoming greater which of course forced the front forks to pivot sharp right. Now the front end is way right of me, me still in line with my origional angle of travel as this was all happening faster than I could react. The process repeated a few times until I the bike was upright again. The point here is if you turn the forks right, and do not lean into the turn, the further over the bike leans the more it wants to straighten the forks out on its own depending on the angle of rake in the forks. Hope that makes sense, I am sure I used improper terminology but I hope you all got my point. A real counter steer will get you slapped on the turf if I am interpreting you all correctly. ;) |
The great debate is over
On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 12:31:02 -0400, "RCE" wrote:
"JimH" wrote in message .. . http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~fa...g/Steering.htm http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html Looks like countersteering is the initial process in turning a bicycle as one *has* to lean into the turn, even at slow speeds (where the lean is not obvious). My apologies to you and John. ;-) No apologies necessary, to me anyway. You said nothing to offend me. Ok ... got air in the tire on the bicycle finally and pedaled off down our long, sloping driveway. To my surprise, although the effect is there, it is very subtle when compared to that on the Harley, so much so that I had to try it over and over to convince myself it was there. There is absolutely no question on the Harley .. a gentle push will initiate a major course change, but not so on the bicycle. I tried at various speeds up to 14 mph and didn't notice a whole lot of difference. The effect *is* there, but you actually have to be looking for it to notice and to not confuse it with other balance issues. I can clearly see why a non-motorcyclist like ShortWave could hop on a bicycle looking to experience countersteering and wondering what the heck we were talking about. I also have a new theory. I suspect that countersteering is more pronounced the heavier the two-wheeled vehicle is. On the 1000 lb Harley (bike and rider) the effect is very pronounced. I suspect a smaller, lighter dirt bike would not exhibit the effect to the same degree. Anyway, I do it all the time on the motorcycle. As JohnH pointed out it's a natural reaction to avoiding a rock or muffler or something in the road ahead that's coming up fast when cruising along at 70 mph. Eisboch I'd expect the trail on your bicycle to be much less than that on your motorcycle, and the motorcycle has much more momentum helping it lean. Also I noted thunder's comment about the gyroscopic effect of the wheels. Terry Colon, in the reference JimH provided, commented on that: "Counter-steering tilts your motorcycle into a turn faster than you can lean it shifting your own weight by using the motorcycle's momentum to force itself into the desired tilting angle." and, "Some folks will tell you it's the gyroscopic effect of rotating the front wheel tilting your bike in counter-steering. Some folks would be wrong." |
The great debate is over
On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 12:39:39 -0400, "RCE" wrote:
wrote in message oups.com... Well I been kinda' busy the last few days looking for a new boat so I have not followed this much, I do need to come in here quickly as I have a little experience in this field having had my bike licence for over 30 years now. I was riding one dark night back in the mid 80's, middle of winter riding to work. I hit a huge chunk of ice/slush that had frozen to the road, about the size of a cinder block. It knocked my front end sharply to the left, turning my wheel left and started to deposit me down to the right as will happen when a front tire looses grip on a bike. Loosening up my grip preparing to eat asphalt my front end caught and kicked the tire around to the right, now the bike is turning right and laying down to the left, again the tire, because of the rake of the fork kicked to the left, kicking the bike upright and back to the left. This wobble continued about 3-5 times until the bike stood itself right up again. I pulled over and cleaned my pants. The reverse lean steer saved my ass from a bad hit and it was only because of the geometry of the bike that it happened, call it reverse steer, call it great engineering, either way it was one time I f*****d up and did not eat pavement.. There have been highway accidents due to "wobble" loss of control. They are usually caused by riding too fast while navigating a long, sloping turn in the road and suddenly de-accelerating for some reason. I've never experienced it (hope I never will) but have been told that if it starts, hit the throttle to maintain control and slow down more slowly. Eisboch A friend once improperly adjusted the rear suspension on my wife's bike. She got it up to about 50 mph and the front end went crazy wobbling. She let off the throttle and somehow managed to keep it under control. The wobble left once she slowed back down. Needless to say, I put the suspension adjustment back where it had been. |
The great debate is over
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 18:28:58 -0000, thunder wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 14:05:07 -0500, John H. wrote: Also I noted thunder's comment about the gyroscopic effect of the wheels. Terry Colon, in the reference JimH provided, commented on that: "Counter-steering tilts your motorcycle into a turn faster than you can lean it shifting your own weight by using the motorcycle's momentum to force itself into the desired tilting angle." and, "Some folks will tell you it's the gyroscopic effect of rotating the front wheel tilting your bike in counter-steering. Some folks would be wrong." John, read for content. I didn't say anything about the gyroscopic effect tilting your bike in counter-steering. It doesn't. It does straighten your wheel after the lean is accomplished. If it didn't, your wheel would continue to the right, and you would have a nice case of road rash. Oh, OK. Sorry I misread what you said. You should have been around when all the name-calling was going on about whether or not countersteering even existed! |
The great debate is over
|
The great debate is over
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 14:59:15 -0400, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote: John H. wrote: On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 18:28:58 -0000, thunder wrote: On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 14:05:07 -0500, John H. wrote: Also I noted thunder's comment about the gyroscopic effect of the wheels. Terry Colon, in the reference JimH provided, commented on that: "Counter-steering tilts your motorcycle into a turn faster than you can lean it shifting your own weight by using the motorcycle's momentum to force itself into the desired tilting angle." and, "Some folks will tell you it's the gyroscopic effect of rotating the front wheel tilting your bike in counter-steering. Some folks would be wrong." John, read for content. I didn't say anything about the gyroscopic effect tilting your bike in counter-steering. It doesn't. It does straighten your wheel after the lean is accomplished. If it didn't, your wheel would continue to the right, and you would have a nice case of road rash. Oh, OK. Sorry I misread what you said. You should have been around when all the name-calling was going on about whether or not countersteering even existed! It was so obvious that even JimH would finally figure it out JimH. It was nice to see him do his infamous "Opps ..... Never mind" routines. Nothing new there! |
The great debate is over
On Jun 2, 10:32 am, John H. wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 07:15:57 -0700, wrote: On Jun 2, 10:54 am, John H. wrote: On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 09:27:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote: "RCE" wrote in message m... "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message . .. Forgot to mention this yesterday. I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in Plainfield. I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong. Not that there is anything wrong with that. :) And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion. EXCELSIOR!! :) How would you like your crow cooked? Eisboch Medium rare for me: http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~fa...g/Steering.htm http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html Looks like countersteering is the initial process in turning a bicycle as one *has* to lean into the turn, even at slow speeds (where the lean is not obvious). My apologies to you and John. ;-) BTW, I think Terry Colon is wrong, partially, in his description of bicycle steering. Therefore, I sent him the following email: " Your article on countersteering was used in a usegroup as proof that it exists. In your article, you state that countersteering isn't used much with bicycles, because leaning the body is sufficient to get the bike turning. (http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html) I disagree. I believe that leaning the body, without changing the geometry of the arms, does initiate a countersteer which turns the bicycle. If you lean left, and don't bend your left elbow to compensate, you will push on the left handlebar, thus countersteering. Try riding your bicycle and leaning while keeping the bike in a straight direction. It is very easy to do. You'll notice that you compensate for the lean with the geometry of your arms, ensuring that you don't countersteer. Thanks for your articles, by the way. John Herring Motorcyclist- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Well I been kinda' busy the last few days looking for a new boat so I have not followed this much, I do need to come in here quickly as I have a little experience in this field having had my bike licence for over 30 years now. I was riding one dark night back in the mid 80's, middle of winter riding to work. I hit a huge chunk of ice/slush that had frozen to the road, about the size of a cinder block. It knocked my front end sharply to the left, turning my wheel left and started to deposit me down to the right as will happen when a front tire looses grip on a bike. Loosening up my grip preparing to eat asphalt my front end caught and kicked the tire around to the right, now the bike is turning right and laying down to the left, again the tire, because of the rake of the fork kicked to the left, kicking the bike upright and back to the left. This wobble continued about 3-5 times until the bike stood itself right up again. I pulled over and cleaned my pants. The reverse lean steer saved my ass from a bad hit and it was only because of the geometry of the bike that it happened, call it reverse steer, call it great engineering, either way it was one time I f*****d up and did not eat pavement.. Those 'death wobbles' are bad news. I got forced off the road by a semi out near Richland, WA. Hit a bunch of loose gravel. The wobble started, but I had no idea, at the time, how to get out of it. So, the bike and I went down, skidded for a looooonnng ways, and did a lot of damage to me *and* the bike. (Like a total dumb ass, I wasn't wearing leathers or even a shirt. Hell, I was trying to get a suntan!)- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Highspeed wobble isn't a good thing. That's one reason why the old Kawasaki 3-cyl 2-stroke 750's were called "Widow Makers" If the extreme wheelie caused from ripping the gears with 80 hp, and an obnoxious powerband, up to 3rd gear didn't get you, usually the "HSW" would. Kawasaki had a design flaw in in that bike, due to the the center of gravity with the placement of the engine in the frame,, pluse overall weight distribution, and fork rake etc. Just made a bad combination all the way around. But man what a gas to ride! |
The great debate is over
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 20:45:19 -0000, Tim wrote:
But man what a gas to ride! As in give you gas? |
The great debate is over
On Jun 2, 3:23 pm, John H. wrote:
I've had a wobble show up in curves on my Guzzi. Y'know? That's one of the LAST Motorcycle mfj's I would think that would have that problem. BTW, John, this obviously isn't it, but my Guzzi that got me though college was exactly like this with enception of the Speedo and Tach cluster, I later put a Wixom fairing on it, to keep down on the winter cold when the weather would permit riding. and when you're a young college student, that was about any time there wasn't ice on the pavement. http://www.tlm.nl/specials/restaurat...ldorado_LH.jpg |
The great debate is over
On Jun 2, 3:51 pm, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 20:45:19 -0000, Tim wrote: But man what a gas to ride! As in give you gas? No, but they sucked plenty of it! |
The great debate is over
On Jun 2, 5:12 pm, John H. wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 20:59:53 -0000, Tim wrote: On Jun 2, 3:23 pm, John H. wrote: I've had a wobble show up in curves on my Guzzi. Y'know? That's one of the LAST Motorcycle mfj's I would think that would have that problem. BTW, John, this obviously isn't it, but my Guzzi that got me though college was exactly like this with enception of the Speedo and Tach cluster, I later put a Wixom fairing on it, to keep down on the winter cold when the weather would permit riding. and when you're a young college student, that was about any time there wasn't ice on the pavement. http://www.tlm.nl/specials/restaurat...ldorado_LH.jpg Very cool! I had an Eldorado for a while, but only to fix up and then sell. They are very popular, still, with the Guzzi folks, so I was able to make a pretty good profit on it. It's a shame you don't still have it! The Mille GT was one of the few big bikes Guzzi made with a small, plastic front fender. And the fender provided no bracing whatsoever. I put the front end from an 850T on it, and the wobble problem went away. The site you discovered was from Teo Lamer's shop in the Netherlands. Teo is the one who loaned me a bike a couple years ago for a trip we took down to the Cote d'Azur and back up through the French Alps. What a coincidence that you should get his site! He's the biggest Guzzi dealer in the Netherlands, and one of the biggest in Europe.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Cool that you got a bike from him for your tour. Interesting to note, that riders in Italy will actually order a bike through him and pay all he duties, and shipping to get it back to Italy, Because he has them when nobody else does, like he's the first in line. the reason my Tach and Speedo cluster was different, is because when I got the bike somebody had vandalized it at a bar, and took a tire iron to them. amazing that was the only damage done, but the guy got hauled off before he could do worse. Anyhow, I found a speedometer mount from a '68 V-7, so my Guzzzi, was almost all Eldo, with a little bit of Ambassador thrown on top. The Mille GT was one of the few big bikes Guzzi made with a small, plastic front fender. And the fender provided no bracing whatsoever. I put the front end from an 850T on it, and the wobble problem went away. Makes one wonder what they were thinking, doesn't it? You're Mille, didn't still have the backward shifting did it? |
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