On Jun 2, 11:32 am, John H. wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 07:15:57 -0700, wrote:
On Jun 2, 10:54 am, John H. wrote:
On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 09:27:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote:

"RCE" wrote in message
m...

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
. ..
Forgot to mention this yesterday.

I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in
Plainfield.

I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all
not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong.

Not that there is anything wrong with that. :)

And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that
left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought
that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion.

EXCELSIOR!! :)

How would you like your crow cooked?

Eisboch

Medium rare for me:

http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~fa...g/Steering.htm

http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html

Looks like countersteering is the initial process in turning a bicycle as
one *has* to lean into the turn, even at slow speeds (where the lean is not
obvious).

My apologies to you and John. ;-)

BTW, I think Terry Colon is wrong, partially, in his description of bicycle
steering. Therefore, I sent him the following email:

"
Your article on countersteering was used in a usegroup as proof that it
exists. In your article, you state that countersteering isn't used much
with bicycles, because leaning the body is sufficient to get the bike
turning. (http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html)

I disagree. I believe that leaning the body, without changing the geometry
of the arms, does initiate a countersteer which turns the bicycle. If you
lean left, and don't bend your left elbow to compensate, you will push on
the left handlebar, thus countersteering. Try riding your bicycle and
leaning while keeping the bike in a straight direction. It is very easy to
do. You'll notice that you compensate for the lean with the geometry of
your arms, ensuring that you don't countersteer.

Thanks for your articles, by the way.

John Herring
Motorcyclist- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well I been kinda' busy the last few days looking for a new boat so I
have not followed this much, I do need to come in here quickly as I
have a little experience in this field having had my bike licence for
over 30 years now. I was riding one dark night back in the mid 80's,
middle of winter riding to work. I hit a huge chunk of ice/slush that
had frozen to the road, about the size of a cinder block. It knocked
my front end sharply to the left, turning my wheel left and started to
deposit me down to the right as will happen when a front tire looses
grip on a bike. Loosening up my grip preparing to eat asphalt my front
end caught and kicked the tire around to the right, now the bike is
turning right and laying down to the left, again the tire, because of
the rake of the fork kicked to the left, kicking the bike upright and
back to the left. This wobble continued about 3-5 times until the bike
stood itself right up again. I pulled over and cleaned my pants. The
reverse lean steer saved my ass from a bad hit and it was only because
of the geometry of the bike that it happened, call it reverse steer,
call it great engineering, either way it was one time I f*****d up and
did not eat pavement..

Those 'death wobbles' are bad news. I got forced off the road by a semi out
near Richland, WA. Hit a bunch of loose gravel. The wobble started, but I
had no idea, at the time, how to get out of it. So, the bike and I went
down, skidded for a looooonnng ways, and did a lot of damage to me *and*
the bike. (Like a total dumb ass, I wasn't wearing leathers or even a
shirt. Hell, I was trying to get a suntan!)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If your gonna wear skin, you might as well just get in a car

On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 07:15:57 -0700, wrote:

On Jun 2, 10:54 am, John H. wrote:
On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 09:27:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote:

"RCE" wrote in message
m...

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
. ..
Forgot to mention this yesterday.

I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in
Plainfield.

I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all
not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong.

Not that there is anything wrong with that. :)

And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that
left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought
that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion.

EXCELSIOR!! :)

How would you like your crow cooked?

Eisboch

Medium rare for me:

http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~fa...g/Steering.htm

http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html

Looks like countersteering is the initial process in turning a bicycle as
one *has* to lean into the turn, even at slow speeds (where the lean is not
obvious).

My apologies to you and John. ;-)

BTW, I think Terry Colon is wrong, partially, in his description of bicycle
steering. Therefore, I sent him the following email:

"
Your article on countersteering was used in a usegroup as proof that it
exists. In your article, you state that countersteering isn't used much
with bicycles, because leaning the body is sufficient to get the bike
turning. (http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html)

I disagree. I believe that leaning the body, without changing the geometry
of the arms, does initiate a countersteer which turns the bicycle. If you
lean left, and don't bend your left elbow to compensate, you will push on
the left handlebar, thus countersteering. Try riding your bicycle and
leaning while keeping the bike in a straight direction. It is very easy to
do. You'll notice that you compensate for the lean with the geometry of
your arms, ensuring that you don't countersteer.

Thanks for your articles, by the way.

John Herring
Motorcyclist- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well I been kinda' busy the last few days looking for a new boat so I
have not followed this much, I do need to come in here quickly as I
have a little experience in this field having had my bike licence for
over 30 years now. I was riding one dark night back in the mid 80's,
middle of winter riding to work. I hit a huge chunk of ice/slush that
had frozen to the road, about the size of a cinder block. It knocked
my front end sharply to the left, turning my wheel left and started to
deposit me down to the right as will happen when a front tire looses
grip on a bike. Loosening up my grip preparing to eat asphalt my front
end caught and kicked the tire around to the right, now the bike is
turning right and laying down to the left, again the tire, because of
the rake of the fork kicked to the left, kicking the bike upright and
back to the left. This wobble continued about 3-5 times until the bike
stood itself right up again. I pulled over and cleaned my pants. The
reverse lean steer saved my ass from a bad hit and it was only because
of the geometry of the bike that it happened, call it reverse steer,
call it great engineering, either way it was one time I f*****d up and
did not eat pavement..

Those 'death wobbles' are bad news. I got forced off the road by a semi out
near Richland, WA. Hit a bunch of loose gravel. The wobble started, but I
had no idea, at the time, how to get out of it. So, the bike and I went
down, skidded for a looooonnng ways, and did a lot of damage to me *and*
the bike. (Like a total dumb ass, I wasn't wearing leathers or even a
shirt. Hell, I was trying to get a suntan!)

"JimH" wrote in message
...


http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~fa...g/Steering.htm

http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html

Looks like countersteering is the initial process in turning a bicycle as
one *has* to lean into the turn, even at slow speeds (where the lean is
not obvious).

My apologies to you and John. ;-)


No apologies necessary, to me anyway. You said nothing to offend me.

Ok ... got air in the tire on the bicycle finally and pedaled off down our
long, sloping driveway.
To my surprise, although the effect is there, it is very subtle when
compared to that on the Harley, so much so that I had to try it over and
over to convince myself it was there.
There is absolutely no question on the Harley .. a gentle push will initiate
a major course change, but not so on the bicycle. I tried at various speeds
up to 14 mph and didn't notice a whole lot of difference. The effect *is*
there, but you actually have to be looking for it to notice and to not
confuse it with other balance issues. I can clearly see why a
non-motorcyclist like ShortWave could hop on a bicycle looking to experience
countersteering and wondering what the heck we were talking about.

I also have a new theory. I suspect that countersteering is more pronounced
the heavier the two-wheeled vehicle is. On the 1000 lb Harley (bike and
rider) the effect is very pronounced.
I suspect a smaller, lighter dirt bike would not exhibit the effect to the
same degree.

Anyway, I do it all the time on the motorcycle. As JohnH pointed out it's a
natural reaction to avoiding a rock or muffler or something in the road
ahead that's coming up fast when cruising along at 70 mph.

Eisboch

wrote in message
ups.com...


Well I been kinda' busy the last few days looking for a new boat so I
have not followed this much, I do need to come in here quickly as I
have a little experience in this field having had my bike licence for
over 30 years now. I was riding one dark night back in the mid 80's,
middle of winter riding to work. I hit a huge chunk of ice/slush that
had frozen to the road, about the size of a cinder block. It knocked
my front end sharply to the left, turning my wheel left and started to
deposit me down to the right as will happen when a front tire looses
grip on a bike. Loosening up my grip preparing to eat asphalt my front
end caught and kicked the tire around to the right, now the bike is
turning right and laying down to the left, again the tire, because of
the rake of the fork kicked to the left, kicking the bike upright and
back to the left. This wobble continued about 3-5 times until the bike
stood itself right up again. I pulled over and cleaned my pants. The
reverse lean steer saved my ass from a bad hit and it was only because
of the geometry of the bike that it happened, call it reverse steer,
call it great engineering, either way it was one time I f*****d up and
did not eat pavement..


There have been highway accidents due to "wobble" loss of control. They are
usually caused by riding too fast while navigating a long, sloping turn in
the road and suddenly de-accelerating for some reason. I've never
experienced it (hope I never will) but have been told that if it starts, hit
the throttle to maintain control and slow down more slowly.

Eisboch

On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 12:31:02 -0400, RCE wrote:


I also have a new theory. I suspect that countersteering is more
pronounced the heavier the two-wheeled vehicle is. On the 1000 lb
Harley (bike and rider) the effect is very pronounced. I suspect a
smaller, lighter dirt bike would not exhibit the effect to the same
degree.

I suspect you are right. That big Harley front wheel has more of a
gyroscopic effect, which I'm guessing is instrumental to the counter-
steering phenomenon. The push left gets your left lean, but the
gyroscopic effect means the wheel will straighten so you can continue
your left turn. The same physics apply to a bicycle, but because of less
mass they are not as pronounced. At least that's the story I'm sticking
to.

On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 14:05:07 -0500, John H. wrote:


Also I noted thunder's comment about the gyroscopic effect of the
wheels. Terry Colon, in the reference JimH provided, commented on that:

"Counter-steering tilts your motorcycle into a turn faster than you can
lean it shifting your own weight by using the motorcycle's momentum to
force itself into the desired tilting angle."

and, "Some folks will tell you it's the gyroscopic effect of rotating
the front wheel tilting your bike in counter-steering. Some folks would
be wrong."

John, read for content. I didn't say anything about the gyroscopic
effect tilting your bike in counter-steering. It doesn't. It does
straighten your wheel after the lean is accomplished. If it didn't, your
wheel would continue to the right, and you would have a nice case of road
rash.

On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 15:09:57 -0000, thunder wrote:

On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 09:09:53 -0500, John H. wrote:


Follow behind a car, using a 2 second interval (always) between you and
the car in front. Ride in the center of the lane. As you're following
the car, you'll notice sewer covers, gas line covers, etc., as they come
from beneath the car. Use countersteering to swerve and avoid the
covers, or anything else that pops up from underneath the car. This is a
good exercise in city traffic. It will help you miss the chunk of 4 x 4
that fell off the truck in front of you while on the highway!

With all due respect, I question the safety of this exercise. First, I
would never ride in the center of the lane. That's where all the oils,
nails, and other road debris accumulate. Ride in the left or right
track. The road is generally cleaner. Your visibility to other drivers
is enhanced, and you have slightly more escape paths.

Secondly, concentrating on someones' taillights is bad driving practice.
Concentrating on what comes out from underneath someones' car is even
worse. You should be looking farther down the road to enable reacting to
what the driver ahead of you is reacting to.

It's also my experience that city driving, in traffic, is far more
dangerous, and takes far more concentration and awareness than highway
driving. It seems to me, your exercise only increases the risk. There
are far better places to practice counter-steering.

If I felt it was unsafe, I wouldn't do it. If the traffic was heavy, I
wouldn't do it. Most city roads are not full of trash in the center of the
lane. Where did 'taillights' enter the picture?

You're correct about looking well ahead, but a motorcyclist must also look
directly in front. The eyes should be continuously looking for danger or
people, or dogs.

On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 08:11:59 -0700, wrote:

On Jun 2, 11:32 am, John H. wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 07:15:57 -0700, wrote:
On Jun 2, 10:54 am, John H. wrote:
On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 09:27:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote:

"RCE" wrote in message
m...

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
. ..
Forgot to mention this yesterday.

I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in
Plainfield.

I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all
not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong.

Not that there is anything wrong with that. :)

And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that
left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought
that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion.

EXCELSIOR!! :)

How would you like your crow cooked?

Eisboch

Medium rare for me:

http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~fa...g/Steering.htm

http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html

Looks like countersteering is the initial process in turning a bicycle as
one *has* to lean into the turn, even at slow speeds (where the lean is not
obvious).

My apologies to you and John. ;-)

BTW, I think Terry Colon is wrong, partially, in his description of bicycle
steering. Therefore, I sent him the following email:

"
Your article on countersteering was used in a usegroup as proof that it
exists. In your article, you state that countersteering isn't used much
with bicycles, because leaning the body is sufficient to get the bike
turning. (http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html)

I disagree. I believe that leaning the body, without changing the geometry
of the arms, does initiate a countersteer which turns the bicycle. If you
lean left, and don't bend your left elbow to compensate, you will push on
the left handlebar, thus countersteering. Try riding your bicycle and
leaning while keeping the bike in a straight direction. It is very easy to
do. You'll notice that you compensate for the lean with the geometry of
your arms, ensuring that you don't countersteer.

Thanks for your articles, by the way.

John Herring
Motorcyclist- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well I been kinda' busy the last few days looking for a new boat so I
have not followed this much, I do need to come in here quickly as I
have a little experience in this field having had my bike licence for
over 30 years now. I was riding one dark night back in the mid 80's,
middle of winter riding to work. I hit a huge chunk of ice/slush that
had frozen to the road, about the size of a cinder block. It knocked
my front end sharply to the left, turning my wheel left and started to
deposit me down to the right as will happen when a front tire looses
grip on a bike. Loosening up my grip preparing to eat asphalt my front
end caught and kicked the tire around to the right, now the bike is
turning right and laying down to the left, again the tire, because of
the rake of the fork kicked to the left, kicking the bike upright and
back to the left. This wobble continued about 3-5 times until the bike
stood itself right up again. I pulled over and cleaned my pants. The
reverse lean steer saved my ass from a bad hit and it was only because
of the geometry of the bike that it happened, call it reverse steer,
call it great engineering, either way it was one time I f*****d up and
did not eat pavement..

Those 'death wobbles' are bad news. I got forced off the road by a semi out
near Richland, WA. Hit a bunch of loose gravel. The wobble started, but I
had no idea, at the time, how to get out of it. So, the bike and I went
down, skidded for a looooonnng ways, and did a lot of damage to me *and*
the bike. (Like a total dumb ass, I wasn't wearing leathers or even a
shirt. Hell, I was trying to get a suntan!)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If your gonna wear skin, you might as well just get in a car

????

John H. wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 18:28:58 -0000, thunder wrote:

On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 14:05:07 -0500, John H. wrote:


Also I noted thunder's comment about the gyroscopic effect of the
wheels. Terry Colon, in the reference JimH provided, commented on that:

"Counter-steering tilts your motorcycle into a turn faster than you can
lean it shifting your own weight by using the motorcycle's momentum to
force itself into the desired tilting angle."

and, "Some folks will tell you it's the gyroscopic effect of rotating
the front wheel tilting your bike in counter-steering. Some folks would
be wrong."
John, read for content. I didn't say anything about the gyroscopic
effect tilting your bike in counter-steering. It doesn't. It does
straighten your wheel after the lean is accomplished. If it didn't, your
wheel would continue to the right, and you would have a nice case of road
rash.

Oh, OK. Sorry I misread what you said.

You should have been around when all the name-calling was going on about
whether or not countersteering even existed!

It was so obvious that even JimH would finally figure it out JimH. It
was nice to see him do his infamous "Opps ..... Never mind" routines.

On Jun 2, 12:39 pm, "RCE" wrote:
wrote in message

ups.com...







Well I been kinda' busy the last few days looking for a new boat so I
have not followed this much, I do need to come in here quickly as I
have a little experience in this field having had my bike licence for
over 30 years now. I was riding one dark night back in the mid 80's,
middle of winter riding to work. I hit a huge chunk of ice/slush that
had frozen to the road, about the size of a cinder block. It knocked
my front end sharply to the left, turning my wheel left and started to
deposit me down to the right as will happen when a front tire looses
grip on a bike. Loosening up my grip preparing to eat asphalt my front
end caught and kicked the tire around to the right, now the bike is
turning right and laying down to the left, again the tire, because of
the rake of the fork kicked to the left, kicking the bike upright and
back to the left. This wobble continued about 3-5 times until the bike
stood itself right up again. I pulled over and cleaned my pants. The
reverse lean steer saved my ass from a bad hit and it was only because
of the geometry of the bike that it happened, call it reverse steer,
call it great engineering, either way it was one time I f*****d up and
did not eat pavement..

There have been highway accidents due to "wobble" loss of control. They are
usually caused by riding too fast while navigating a long, sloping turn in
the road and suddenly de-accelerating for some reason. I've never
experienced it (hope I never will) but have been told that if it starts, hit
the throttle to maintain control and slow down more slowly.

Eisboch- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

We used to get that wobble coming in 84 east bound just west of the
mass border, I am sure SW is familiar with the old highway. And you
can not just brake to stop it, you gotta maintain throttle and come
off real slow, and real out of control. My Bike used to get it at
certain speeds, somewhere under 80 I think there was a band where it
was real bad. The wobble I described in my almost wreck is a little
different as it is at a lot slower speed (not a speed wobble) and
probably more relevant to the steering stuff you guys are talking
about. At about 35 mph the front forks got kicked left and the front
end got knocked that way too. Having not leaned into the "turn" my
front tire going left, turned left, me far right of the line of
balance of the bike and heading down fast. However, in this situation
the angle behind the area of straight force of the front tire was
becoming greater which of course forced the front forks to pivot sharp
right. Now the front end is way right of me, me still in line with my
origional angle of travel as this was all happening faster than I
could react. The process repeated a few times until I the bike was
upright again. The point here is if you turn the forks right, and do
not lean into the turn, the further over the bike leans the more it
wants to straighten the forks out on its own depending on the angle of
rake in the forks. Hope that makes sense, I am sure I used improper
terminology but I hope you all got my point. A real counter steer will
get you slapped on the turf if I am interpreting you all correctly.