On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 12:31:02 -0400, "RCE" wrote:


"JimH" wrote in message
.. .


http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~fa...g/Steering.htm

http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html

Looks like countersteering is the initial process in turning a bicycle as
one *has* to lean into the turn, even at slow speeds (where the lean is
not obvious).

My apologies to you and John. ;-)


No apologies necessary, to me anyway. You said nothing to offend me.

Ok ... got air in the tire on the bicycle finally and pedaled off down our
long, sloping driveway.
To my surprise, although the effect is there, it is very subtle when
compared to that on the Harley, so much so that I had to try it over and
over to convince myself it was there.
There is absolutely no question on the Harley .. a gentle push will initiate
a major course change, but not so on the bicycle. I tried at various speeds
up to 14 mph and didn't notice a whole lot of difference. The effect *is*
there, but you actually have to be looking for it to notice and to not
confuse it with other balance issues. I can clearly see why a
non-motorcyclist like ShortWave could hop on a bicycle looking to experience
countersteering and wondering what the heck we were talking about.

I also have a new theory. I suspect that countersteering is more pronounced
the heavier the two-wheeled vehicle is. On the 1000 lb Harley (bike and
rider) the effect is very pronounced.
I suspect a smaller, lighter dirt bike would not exhibit the effect to the
same degree.

Anyway, I do it all the time on the motorcycle. As JohnH pointed out it's a
natural reaction to avoiding a rock or muffler or something in the road
ahead that's coming up fast when cruising along at 70 mph.

Eisboch


I'd expect the trail on your bicycle to be much less than that on your
motorcycle, and the motorcycle has much more momentum helping it lean.

Also I noted thunder's comment about the gyroscopic effect of the wheels.
Terry Colon, in the reference JimH provided, commented on that:

"Counter-steering tilts your motorcycle into a turn faster than you can
lean it shifting your own weight by using the motorcycle's momentum to
force itself into the desired tilting angle."

and, "Some folks will tell you it's the gyroscopic effect of rotating the
front wheel tilting your bike in counter-steering. Some folks would be
wrong."

On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 12:39:39 -0400, "RCE" wrote:


wrote in message
oups.com...


Well I been kinda' busy the last few days looking for a new boat so I
have not followed this much, I do need to come in here quickly as I
have a little experience in this field having had my bike licence for
over 30 years now. I was riding one dark night back in the mid 80's,
middle of winter riding to work. I hit a huge chunk of ice/slush that
had frozen to the road, about the size of a cinder block. It knocked
my front end sharply to the left, turning my wheel left and started to
deposit me down to the right as will happen when a front tire looses
grip on a bike. Loosening up my grip preparing to eat asphalt my front
end caught and kicked the tire around to the right, now the bike is
turning right and laying down to the left, again the tire, because of
the rake of the fork kicked to the left, kicking the bike upright and
back to the left. This wobble continued about 3-5 times until the bike
stood itself right up again. I pulled over and cleaned my pants. The
reverse lean steer saved my ass from a bad hit and it was only because
of the geometry of the bike that it happened, call it reverse steer,
call it great engineering, either way it was one time I f*****d up and
did not eat pavement..


There have been highway accidents due to "wobble" loss of control. They are
usually caused by riding too fast while navigating a long, sloping turn in
the road and suddenly de-accelerating for some reason. I've never
experienced it (hope I never will) but have been told that if it starts, hit
the throttle to maintain control and slow down more slowly.

Eisboch


A friend once improperly adjusted the rear suspension on my wife's bike.
She got it up to about 50 mph and the front end went crazy wobbling. She
let off the throttle and somehow managed to keep it under control. The
wobble left once she slowed back down. Needless to say, I put the
suspension adjustment back where it had been.

On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 18:28:58 -0000, thunder wrote:

On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 14:05:07 -0500, John H. wrote:


Also I noted thunder's comment about the gyroscopic effect of the
wheels. Terry Colon, in the reference JimH provided, commented on that:

"Counter-steering tilts your motorcycle into a turn faster than you can
lean it shifting your own weight by using the motorcycle's momentum to
force itself into the desired tilting angle."

and, "Some folks will tell you it's the gyroscopic effect of rotating
the front wheel tilting your bike in counter-steering. Some folks would
be wrong."

John, read for content. I didn't say anything about the gyroscopic
effect tilting your bike in counter-steering. It doesn't. It does
straighten your wheel after the lean is accomplished. If it didn't, your
wheel would continue to the right, and you would have a nice case of road
rash.

Oh, OK. Sorry I misread what you said.

You should have been around when all the name-calling was going on about
whether or not countersteering even existed!

On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 12:02:06 -0700, wrote:

On Jun 2, 12:39 pm, "RCE" wrote:
wrote in message

ups.com...







Well I been kinda' busy the last few days looking for a new boat so I
have not followed this much, I do need to come in here quickly as I
have a little experience in this field having had my bike licence for
over 30 years now. I was riding one dark night back in the mid 80's,
middle of winter riding to work. I hit a huge chunk of ice/slush that
had frozen to the road, about the size of a cinder block. It knocked
my front end sharply to the left, turning my wheel left and started to
deposit me down to the right as will happen when a front tire looses
grip on a bike. Loosening up my grip preparing to eat asphalt my front
end caught and kicked the tire around to the right, now the bike is
turning right and laying down to the left, again the tire, because of
the rake of the fork kicked to the left, kicking the bike upright and
back to the left. This wobble continued about 3-5 times until the bike
stood itself right up again. I pulled over and cleaned my pants. The
reverse lean steer saved my ass from a bad hit and it was only because
of the geometry of the bike that it happened, call it reverse steer,
call it great engineering, either way it was one time I f*****d up and
did not eat pavement..

There have been highway accidents due to "wobble" loss of control. They are
usually caused by riding too fast while navigating a long, sloping turn in
the road and suddenly de-accelerating for some reason. I've never
experienced it (hope I never will) but have been told that if it starts, hit
the throttle to maintain control and slow down more slowly.

Eisboch- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

We used to get that wobble coming in 84 east bound just west of the
mass border, I am sure SW is familiar with the old highway. And you
can not just brake to stop it, you gotta maintain throttle and come
off real slow, and real out of control. My Bike used to get it at
certain speeds, somewhere under 80 I think there was a band where it
was real bad. The wobble I described in my almost wreck is a little
different as it is at a lot slower speed (not a speed wobble) and
probably more relevant to the steering stuff you guys are talking
about. At about 35 mph the front forks got kicked left and the front
end got knocked that way too. Having not leaned into the "turn" my
front tire going left, turned left, me far right of the line of
balance of the bike and heading down fast. However, in this situation
the angle behind the area of straight force of the front tire was
becoming greater which of course forced the front forks to pivot sharp
right. Now the front end is way right of me, me still in line with my
origional angle of travel as this was all happening faster than I
could react. The process repeated a few times until I the bike was
upright again. The point here is if you turn the forks right, and do
not lean into the turn, the further over the bike leans the more it
wants to straighten the forks out on its own depending on the angle of
rake in the forks. Hope that makes sense, I am sure I used improper
terminology but I hope you all got my point. A real counter steer will
get you slapped on the turf if I am interpreting you all correctly.

It sounds like your front suspension may not have been up to the curve you
were taking at the speed you were taking it. I've had a wobble show up in
curves on my Guzzi. I've since added fork bracing to the front end. The
wobble has never returned.

Countersteering is not a 'trick' or new way of steering. It's what makes
your motorcycle turn, every time you turn.

On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 14:59:15 -0400, "Reginald P. Smithers III"
wrote:

John H. wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 18:28:58 -0000, thunder wrote:

On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 14:05:07 -0500, John H. wrote:


Also I noted thunder's comment about the gyroscopic effect of the
wheels. Terry Colon, in the reference JimH provided, commented on that:

"Counter-steering tilts your motorcycle into a turn faster than you can
lean it shifting your own weight by using the motorcycle's momentum to
force itself into the desired tilting angle."

and, "Some folks will tell you it's the gyroscopic effect of rotating
the front wheel tilting your bike in counter-steering. Some folks would
be wrong."
John, read for content. I didn't say anything about the gyroscopic
effect tilting your bike in counter-steering. It doesn't. It does
straighten your wheel after the lean is accomplished. If it didn't, your
wheel would continue to the right, and you would have a nice case of road
rash.

Oh, OK. Sorry I misread what you said.

You should have been around when all the name-calling was going on about
whether or not countersteering even existed!

It was so obvious that even JimH would finally figure it out JimH. It
was nice to see him do his infamous "Opps ..... Never mind" routines.

Nothing new there!

On Jun 2, 10:32 am, John H. wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 07:15:57 -0700, wrote:
On Jun 2, 10:54 am, John H. wrote:
On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 09:27:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote:

"RCE" wrote in message
m...

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
. ..
Forgot to mention this yesterday.

I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in
Plainfield.

I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all
not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong.

Not that there is anything wrong with that. :)

And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that
left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought
that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion.

EXCELSIOR!! :)

How would you like your crow cooked?

Eisboch

Medium rare for me:

http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~fa...g/Steering.htm

http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html

Looks like countersteering is the initial process in turning a bicycle as
one *has* to lean into the turn, even at slow speeds (where the lean is not
obvious).

My apologies to you and John. ;-)

BTW, I think Terry Colon is wrong, partially, in his description of bicycle
steering. Therefore, I sent him the following email:

"
Your article on countersteering was used in a usegroup as proof that it
exists. In your article, you state that countersteering isn't used much
with bicycles, because leaning the body is sufficient to get the bike
turning. (http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html)

I disagree. I believe that leaning the body, without changing the geometry
of the arms, does initiate a countersteer which turns the bicycle. If you
lean left, and don't bend your left elbow to compensate, you will push on
the left handlebar, thus countersteering. Try riding your bicycle and
leaning while keeping the bike in a straight direction. It is very easy to
do. You'll notice that you compensate for the lean with the geometry of
your arms, ensuring that you don't countersteer.

Thanks for your articles, by the way.

John Herring
Motorcyclist- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well I been kinda' busy the last few days looking for a new boat so I
have not followed this much, I do need to come in here quickly as I
have a little experience in this field having had my bike licence for
over 30 years now. I was riding one dark night back in the mid 80's,
middle of winter riding to work. I hit a huge chunk of ice/slush that
had frozen to the road, about the size of a cinder block. It knocked
my front end sharply to the left, turning my wheel left and started to
deposit me down to the right as will happen when a front tire looses
grip on a bike. Loosening up my grip preparing to eat asphalt my front
end caught and kicked the tire around to the right, now the bike is
turning right and laying down to the left, again the tire, because of
the rake of the fork kicked to the left, kicking the bike upright and
back to the left. This wobble continued about 3-5 times until the bike
stood itself right up again. I pulled over and cleaned my pants. The
reverse lean steer saved my ass from a bad hit and it was only because
of the geometry of the bike that it happened, call it reverse steer,
call it great engineering, either way it was one time I f*****d up and
did not eat pavement..

Those 'death wobbles' are bad news. I got forced off the road by a semi out
near Richland, WA. Hit a bunch of loose gravel. The wobble started, but I
had no idea, at the time, how to get out of it. So, the bike and I went
down, skidded for a looooonnng ways, and did a lot of damage to me *and*
the bike. (Like a total dumb ass, I wasn't wearing leathers or even a
shirt. Hell, I was trying to get a suntan!)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Highspeed wobble isn't a good thing. That's one reason why the old
Kawasaki 3-cyl 2-stroke 750's were called "Widow Makers" If the
extreme wheelie caused from ripping the gears with 80 hp, and an
obnoxious powerband, up to 3rd gear didn't get you, usually the "HSW"
would. Kawasaki had a design flaw in in that bike, due to the the
center of gravity with the placement of the engine in the frame,,
pluse overall weight distribution, and fork rake etc. Just made a bad
combination all the way around.

But man what a gas to ride!

On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 20:45:19 -0000, Tim wrote:

But man what a gas to ride!

As in give you gas?

On Jun 2, 3:23 pm, John H. wrote:


I've had a wobble show up in
curves on my Guzzi.


Y'know? That's one of the LAST Motorcycle mfj's I would think that
would have that problem.

BTW, John, this obviously isn't it, but my Guzzi that got me though
college was exactly like this with enception of the Speedo and Tach
cluster, I later put a Wixom fairing on it, to keep down on the winter
cold when the weather would permit riding. and when you're a young
college student, that was about any time there wasn't ice on the
pavement.

http://www.tlm.nl/specials/restaurat...ldorado_LH.jpg

On Jun 2, 3:51 pm, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 20:45:19 -0000, Tim wrote:
But man what a gas to ride!

As in give you gas?

No, but they sucked plenty of it!

On Jun 2, 5:12 pm, John H. wrote:
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 20:59:53 -0000, Tim wrote:
On Jun 2, 3:23 pm, John H. wrote:

I've had a wobble show up in
curves on my Guzzi.

Y'know? That's one of the LAST Motorcycle mfj's I would think that
would have that problem.

BTW, John, this obviously isn't it, but my Guzzi that got me though
college was exactly like this with enception of the Speedo and Tach
cluster, I later put a Wixom fairing on it, to keep down on the winter
cold when the weather would permit riding. and when you're a young
college student, that was about any time there wasn't ice on the
pavement.

http://www.tlm.nl/specials/restaurat...ldorado_LH.jpg

Very cool! I had an Eldorado for a while, but only to fix up and then sell.
They are very popular, still, with the Guzzi folks, so I was able to make a
pretty good profit on it. It's a shame you don't still have it!

The Mille GT was one of the few big bikes Guzzi made with a small, plastic
front fender. And the fender provided no bracing whatsoever. I put the
front end from an 850T on it, and the wobble problem went away.

The site you discovered was from Teo Lamer's shop in the Netherlands. Teo
is the one who loaned me a bike a couple years ago for a trip we took down
to the Cote d'Azur and back up through the French Alps. What a coincidence
that you should get his site! He's the biggest Guzzi dealer in the
Netherlands, and one of the biggest in Europe.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Cool that you got a bike from him for your tour. Interesting to note,
that riders in Italy will actually order a bike through him and pay
all he duties, and shipping to get it back to Italy, Because he has
them when nobody else does, like he's the first in line.

the reason my Tach and Speedo cluster was different, is because when I
got the bike somebody had vandalized it at a bar, and took a tire iron
to them. amazing that was the only damage done, but the guy got hauled
off before he could do worse. Anyhow, I found a speedometer mount from
a '68 V-7, so my Guzzzi, was almost all Eldo, with a little bit of
Ambassador thrown on top.

The Mille GT was one of the few big bikes Guzzi made with a small, plastic
front fender. And the fender provided no bracing whatsoever. I put the
front end from an 850T on it, and the wobble problem went away.

Makes one wonder what they were thinking, doesn't it?

You're Mille, didn't still have the backward shifting did it?