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#2
posted to rec.boats
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The great debate is over
wrote in message ups.com... Well I been kinda' busy the last few days looking for a new boat so I have not followed this much, I do need to come in here quickly as I have a little experience in this field having had my bike licence for over 30 years now. I was riding one dark night back in the mid 80's, middle of winter riding to work. I hit a huge chunk of ice/slush that had frozen to the road, about the size of a cinder block. It knocked my front end sharply to the left, turning my wheel left and started to deposit me down to the right as will happen when a front tire looses grip on a bike. Loosening up my grip preparing to eat asphalt my front end caught and kicked the tire around to the right, now the bike is turning right and laying down to the left, again the tire, because of the rake of the fork kicked to the left, kicking the bike upright and back to the left. This wobble continued about 3-5 times until the bike stood itself right up again. I pulled over and cleaned my pants. The reverse lean steer saved my ass from a bad hit and it was only because of the geometry of the bike that it happened, call it reverse steer, call it great engineering, either way it was one time I f*****d up and did not eat pavement.. There have been highway accidents due to "wobble" loss of control. They are usually caused by riding too fast while navigating a long, sloping turn in the road and suddenly de-accelerating for some reason. I've never experienced it (hope I never will) but have been told that if it starts, hit the throttle to maintain control and slow down more slowly. Eisboch |
#3
posted to rec.boats
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The great debate is over
"JimH" wrote in message ... http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~fa...g/Steering.htm http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html Looks like countersteering is the initial process in turning a bicycle as one *has* to lean into the turn, even at slow speeds (where the lean is not obvious). My apologies to you and John. ;-) No apologies necessary, to me anyway. You said nothing to offend me. Ok ... got air in the tire on the bicycle finally and pedaled off down our long, sloping driveway. To my surprise, although the effect is there, it is very subtle when compared to that on the Harley, so much so that I had to try it over and over to convince myself it was there. There is absolutely no question on the Harley .. a gentle push will initiate a major course change, but not so on the bicycle. I tried at various speeds up to 14 mph and didn't notice a whole lot of difference. The effect *is* there, but you actually have to be looking for it to notice and to not confuse it with other balance issues. I can clearly see why a non-motorcyclist like ShortWave could hop on a bicycle looking to experience countersteering and wondering what the heck we were talking about. I also have a new theory. I suspect that countersteering is more pronounced the heavier the two-wheeled vehicle is. On the 1000 lb Harley (bike and rider) the effect is very pronounced. I suspect a smaller, lighter dirt bike would not exhibit the effect to the same degree. Anyway, I do it all the time on the motorcycle. As JohnH pointed out it's a natural reaction to avoiding a rock or muffler or something in the road ahead that's coming up fast when cruising along at 70 mph. Eisboch |
#4
posted to rec.boats
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The great debate is over
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 12:31:02 -0400, RCE wrote:
I also have a new theory. I suspect that countersteering is more pronounced the heavier the two-wheeled vehicle is. On the 1000 lb Harley (bike and rider) the effect is very pronounced. I suspect a smaller, lighter dirt bike would not exhibit the effect to the same degree. I suspect you are right. That big Harley front wheel has more of a gyroscopic effect, which I'm guessing is instrumental to the counter- steering phenomenon. The push left gets your left lean, but the gyroscopic effect means the wheel will straighten so you can continue your left turn. The same physics apply to a bicycle, but because of less mass they are not as pronounced. At least that's the story I'm sticking to. |
#5
posted to rec.boats
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The great debate is over
On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 12:31:02 -0400, "RCE" wrote:
"JimH" wrote in message .. . http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~fa...g/Steering.htm http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html Looks like countersteering is the initial process in turning a bicycle as one *has* to lean into the turn, even at slow speeds (where the lean is not obvious). My apologies to you and John. ;-) No apologies necessary, to me anyway. You said nothing to offend me. Ok ... got air in the tire on the bicycle finally and pedaled off down our long, sloping driveway. To my surprise, although the effect is there, it is very subtle when compared to that on the Harley, so much so that I had to try it over and over to convince myself it was there. There is absolutely no question on the Harley .. a gentle push will initiate a major course change, but not so on the bicycle. I tried at various speeds up to 14 mph and didn't notice a whole lot of difference. The effect *is* there, but you actually have to be looking for it to notice and to not confuse it with other balance issues. I can clearly see why a non-motorcyclist like ShortWave could hop on a bicycle looking to experience countersteering and wondering what the heck we were talking about. I also have a new theory. I suspect that countersteering is more pronounced the heavier the two-wheeled vehicle is. On the 1000 lb Harley (bike and rider) the effect is very pronounced. I suspect a smaller, lighter dirt bike would not exhibit the effect to the same degree. Anyway, I do it all the time on the motorcycle. As JohnH pointed out it's a natural reaction to avoiding a rock or muffler or something in the road ahead that's coming up fast when cruising along at 70 mph. Eisboch I'd expect the trail on your bicycle to be much less than that on your motorcycle, and the motorcycle has much more momentum helping it lean. Also I noted thunder's comment about the gyroscopic effect of the wheels. Terry Colon, in the reference JimH provided, commented on that: "Counter-steering tilts your motorcycle into a turn faster than you can lean it shifting your own weight by using the motorcycle's momentum to force itself into the desired tilting angle." and, "Some folks will tell you it's the gyroscopic effect of rotating the front wheel tilting your bike in counter-steering. Some folks would be wrong." |
#6
posted to rec.boats
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The great debate is over
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 14:05:07 -0500, John H. wrote:
Also I noted thunder's comment about the gyroscopic effect of the wheels. Terry Colon, in the reference JimH provided, commented on that: "Counter-steering tilts your motorcycle into a turn faster than you can lean it shifting your own weight by using the motorcycle's momentum to force itself into the desired tilting angle." and, "Some folks will tell you it's the gyroscopic effect of rotating the front wheel tilting your bike in counter-steering. Some folks would be wrong." John, read for content. I didn't say anything about the gyroscopic effect tilting your bike in counter-steering. It doesn't. It does straighten your wheel after the lean is accomplished. If it didn't, your wheel would continue to the right, and you would have a nice case of road rash. |
#7
posted to rec.boats
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The great debate is over
"RCE" wrote in message ... "JimH" wrote in message ... http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~fa...g/Steering.htm http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html Looks like countersteering is the initial process in turning a bicycle as one *has* to lean into the turn, even at slow speeds (where the lean is not obvious). My apologies to you and John. ;-) No apologies necessary, to me anyway. You said nothing to offend me. Ok ... got air in the tire on the bicycle finally and pedaled off down our long, sloping driveway. To my surprise, although the effect is there, it is very subtle when compared to that on the Harley, so much so that I had to try it over and over to convince myself it was there. There is absolutely no question on the Harley .. a gentle push will initiate a major course change, but not so on the bicycle. I tried at various speeds up to 14 mph and didn't notice a whole lot of difference. The effect *is* there, but you actually have to be looking for it to notice and to not confuse it with other balance issues. I can clearly see why a non-motorcyclist like ShortWave could hop on a bicycle looking to experience countersteering and wondering what the heck we were talking about. I also have a new theory. I suspect that countersteering is more pronounced the heavier the two-wheeled vehicle is. On the 1000 lb Harley (bike and rider) the effect is very pronounced. I suspect a smaller, lighter dirt bike would not exhibit the effect to the same degree. Yep, as brought out in the links I provided. On the ride home from the boat I asked my wife which way she would turn the handlebars on a bicycle to turn right........her answer was the same as mine when I originally posted the twin engine boat stearing analogy. We just do not see the counterstearing effect on bicycles because it is indeed so subtle as I pointed out earlier. ;-) |
#8
posted to rec.boats
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John H, RCE and MC riders everywhere...
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... Forgot to mention this yesterday. I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in Plainfield. I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong. Not that there is anything wrong with that. :) And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion. EXCELSIOR!! :) (Your fortune cookie for today) "You are a seeker of truth. You will be enlightened." |
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