On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 10:50:37 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

Forgot to mention this yesterday.

I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in
Plainfield.

I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all
not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong.

Not that there is anything wrong with that. :)

And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that
left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought
that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion.

EXCELSIOR!! :)

Well, if they don't teach you to countersteer, you've wasted your money and
time.

No, neither of us were wrong.

Good luck with the course.

RCE wrote:
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...

By the way, how do you like the Trek Hybrid?

Haven't really used it enough to form an opinion, plus I don't know that
much about modern bicycles. When I was looking for a new bicycle, the Trek
name was recommended in many reviews, so I decided on it. It *is*
reasonably comfortable and so far seems to be well made.
The Hybrid is designed for both road use and casual off-road trail use. It
can be converted to a true "mountain bike" by changing the rims and tires.
I doubt I'll ever need to.

Trek is either the last, or one of the last American made bicycles. The big
names (Schwinn, etc.) are mostly importers now of bikes built in China.
Lance Armstrong used a Trek in several of his Tour de France victories.

Despite 7 months of daily, fairly rigorous exercise, bicycle pedaling uses a
whole new combination of muscles and takes some getting used to.

Eisboch




The frame might be made in the USA, but I'll bet many of the pieces and
parts are not. Shimano? Naw. Bontrager? Well, some of his stuff is still
made in the USA, but most is not. Tires? Unlikely. But a Trek is a
damned nice bike.

On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 12:05:51 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 07:54:20 -0400, "RCE" wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
. ..
Forgot to mention this yesterday.

I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in
Plainfield.

I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all
not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong.

Not that there is anything wrong with that. :)

And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that
left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought
that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion.

EXCELSIOR!! :)

I just came back from a morning walk/jog and decided to take the bicycle out
for a ride and test the steering issue on it. Thought it would be a good
idea to check the air in the tires, but it has weird valve stems that I've
never seen before and a conventional tire gauge fitting doesn't fit on it.
I inadvertently let all the air out of the front tire fooling around with
it. The bike's a Trek Hybrid. I guess I'll have to go back to the dealer
later and get whatever I need to fill it back up.

I'll submit my steering results later.

I would be very interested in comparing your results with mine.

I'm willing to admit that I'm not doing something right, but I can't
make that work for me on my bike.

By the way, how do you like the Trek Hybrid?

Try steering with one hand, and lean only with the bike so as not to
introduce something else into the game.

My gosh, I've put up numerous sites supporting the idea. Do you think
they're there as a joke?

We want you to stay alive!!

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
Forgot to mention this yesterday.

I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in
Plainfield.

I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all
not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong.

Not that there is anything wrong with that. :)

And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that
left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought
that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion.

EXCELSIOR!! :)

How would you like your crow cooked?

Eisboch


Medium rare for me:

http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~fa...g/Steering.htm

http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html

Looks like countersteering is the initial process in turning a bicycle as
one *has* to lean into the turn, even at slow speeds (where the lean is not
obvious).

My apologies to you and John. ;-)

On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 07:54:20 -0400, "RCE" wrote:


"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
.. .
Forgot to mention this yesterday.

I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in
Plainfield.

I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all
not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong.

Not that there is anything wrong with that. :)

And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that
left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought
that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion.

EXCELSIOR!! :)

I just came back from a morning walk/jog and decided to take the bicycle out
for a ride and test the steering issue on it. Thought it would be a good
idea to check the air in the tires, but it has weird valve stems that I've
never seen before and a conventional tire gauge fitting doesn't fit on it.
I inadvertently let all the air out of the front tire fooling around with
it. The bike's a Trek Hybrid. I guess I'll have to go back to the dealer
later and get whatever I need to fill it back up.

I'll submit my steering results later.

Eisboch


Here's an exercise in avoidance maneuvering (using countersteering) you can
do on the HD.

Follow behind a car, using a 2 second interval (always) between you and the
car in front. Ride in the center of the lane. As you're following the car,
you'll notice sewer covers, gas line covers, etc., as they come from
beneath the car. Use countersteering to swerve and avoid the covers, or
anything else that pops up from underneath the car. This is a good exercise
in city traffic. It will help you miss the chunk of 4 x 4 that fell off the
truck in front of you while on the highway!

On Jun 2, 10:54 am, John H. wrote:
On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 09:27:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote:

"RCE" wrote in message
m...

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
. ..
Forgot to mention this yesterday.

I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in
Plainfield.

I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all
not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong.

Not that there is anything wrong with that. :)

And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that
left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought
that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion.

EXCELSIOR!! :)

How would you like your crow cooked?

Eisboch

Medium rare for me:

http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~fa...g/Steering.htm

http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html

Looks like countersteering is the initial process in turning a bicycle as
one *has* to lean into the turn, even at slow speeds (where the lean is not
obvious).

My apologies to you and John. ;-)

BTW, I think Terry Colon is wrong, partially, in his description of bicycle
steering. Therefore, I sent him the following email:

"
Your article on countersteering was used in a usegroup as proof that it
exists. In your article, you state that countersteering isn't used much
with bicycles, because leaning the body is sufficient to get the bike
turning. (http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html)

I disagree. I believe that leaning the body, without changing the geometry
of the arms, does initiate a countersteer which turns the bicycle. If you
lean left, and don't bend your left elbow to compensate, you will push on
the left handlebar, thus countersteering. Try riding your bicycle and
leaning while keeping the bike in a straight direction. It is very easy to
do. You'll notice that you compensate for the lean with the geometry of
your arms, ensuring that you don't countersteer.

Thanks for your articles, by the way.

John Herring
Motorcyclist- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well I been kinda' busy the last few days looking for a new boat so I
have not followed this much, I do need to come in here quickly as I
have a little experience in this field having had my bike licence for
over 30 years now. I was riding one dark night back in the mid 80's,
middle of winter riding to work. I hit a huge chunk of ice/slush that
had frozen to the road, about the size of a cinder block. It knocked
my front end sharply to the left, turning my wheel left and started to
deposit me down to the right as will happen when a front tire looses
grip on a bike. Loosening up my grip preparing to eat asphalt my front
end caught and kicked the tire around to the right, now the bike is
turning right and laying down to the left, again the tire, because of
the rake of the fork kicked to the left, kicking the bike upright and
back to the left. This wobble continued about 3-5 times until the bike
stood itself right up again. I pulled over and cleaned my pants. The
reverse lean steer saved my ass from a bad hit and it was only because
of the geometry of the bike that it happened, call it reverse steer,
call it great engineering, either way it was one time I f*****d up and
did not eat pavement..

On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 08:14:21 -0400, "JimH" wrote:


"RCE" wrote in message
news

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
Forgot to mention this yesterday.

I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in
Plainfield.

I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all
not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong.

Not that there is anything wrong with that. :)

And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that
left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought
that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion.

EXCELSIOR!! :)

I just came back from a morning walk/jog and decided to take the bicycle
out for a ride and test the steering issue on it. Thought it would be a
good idea to check the air in the tires, but it has weird valve stems that
I've never seen before and a conventional tire gauge fitting doesn't fit
on it. I inadvertently let all the air out of the front tire fooling
around with it. The bike's a Trek Hybrid. I guess I'll have to go back
to the dealer later and get whatever I need to fill it back up.

I'll submit my steering results later.

Eisboch


Remember not to be a speed demon.................keep it to a normal speed.
;-)


Countersteering is used at any speed, above walking.

Here, learn something new - especially read the last two paragraphs...

Lean by countersteering

When riding a bicycle or a motorcycle, countersteering is a method of
initiating a turn by a small, momentary turn of the front wheel, usually
via the handlebars, in the opposite (counter) direction. Like the book
example above, this moves the pivot point (the wheels' contact patches) out
from under the center of mass to establish the lean angle for a turn. While
necessary at all speeds, the need to countersteer becomes more noticeable
as speed increases.

Hence, if a rider wants to turn to the right, he first throws the bike off
balance by momentarily pointing the front wheel slightly to the left. The
center of mass of the bike plus rider will continue in a straight line, but
the contact patches of the tires move to the left with respect to this
straight line.

Once lean is achieved

As the desired angle is approached, the rider must then steer into the turn
to maintain that angle or the bike continue to lean with gravity increasing
the rate until the side contacts the ground. As roll momentum and gravity
then tip the bike over to the side, the front wheel must be steered into
the curve, and the curve is negotiated with the proper inward lean. This
process usually requires little physical effort, because the geometry of
the steering system of most bikes is designed in such a way that the front
wheel has a strong tendency to steer in the direction of a lean.

Adjusting or exiting a turn

Once in a turn, countersteering is again required to make changes to its
shape. The only way to decrease the radius at the same speed is to increase
the lean angle, and the only way to increase the lean angle, is again to
momentarily steer opposite to the direction of the curve. To the untrained,
this can be extremely counter-intuitive.

To exit a turn, countersteer by momentarily steering further in the
direction of the turn. This tilts the bike back upright.

At low speeds

At low speeds countersteering is equally necessary, but the countersteering
is then so subtle that it drowns in the continuous corrections that are
made in balancing the bike, often falling below a just noticeable
difference or threshold of perception of the rider.

Unconscious behavior

Countersteering is indispensable for bike steering. Most people are not
consciously aware that they employ countersteering when riding their bike
any more then they are aware of the physics of walking. Their body has
learned to include the well timed countersteering jolt. They may have
learned to do so while learning to ride a bicycle in childhood. Often
people simply assume that the steering of a bike is just like the steering
of a car. Their unconscious balance skills know better.

As is well-known in bicycle racing, the countersteering phenomenon becomes
evident when there is an obstacle preventing the wheel from
countersteering, e.g., when closely overlapping wheels or riding very close
to a curb. In these situations, the only way to initiate a turn away from
the obstacle is to come into contact with it, that is, turn towards the
wheel or curb in order to avoid crashing into it.[3] Lack of understanding
of this principle leads to accidents in novice bicycle races.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 09:27:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote:


"RCE" wrote in message
m...

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
Forgot to mention this yesterday.

I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in
Plainfield.

I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all
not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong.

Not that there is anything wrong with that. :)

And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that
left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought
that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion.

EXCELSIOR!! :)

How would you like your crow cooked?

Eisboch


Medium rare for me:

http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~fa...g/Steering.htm

http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html

Looks like countersteering is the initial process in turning a bicycle as
one *has* to lean into the turn, even at slow speeds (where the lean is not
obvious).

My apologies to you and John. ;-)


I assume that applies to all the name-calling also?

On Sat, 2 Jun 2007 09:27:52 -0400, "JimH" wrote:


"RCE" wrote in message
m...

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
Forgot to mention this yesterday.

I have signed up for a MC riding course at Excalibur Motorsports in
Plainfield.

I intend to put this left/right controversy to rest once and for all
not out of disrespect for your opinions but because you are wrong.

Not that there is anything wrong with that. :)

And I would point out to all you heathens who actually believe that
left/right nonsense that up until ten or so years ago, it was thought
that the curveball didn't curve - it was an optical illusion.

EXCELSIOR!! :)

How would you like your crow cooked?

Eisboch


Medium rare for me:

http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~fa...g/Steering.htm

http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html

Looks like countersteering is the initial process in turning a bicycle as
one *has* to lean into the turn, even at slow speeds (where the lean is not
obvious).

My apologies to you and John. ;-)


BTW, I think Terry Colon is wrong, partially, in his description of bicycle
steering. Therefore, I sent him the following email:

"
Your article on countersteering was used in a usegroup as proof that it
exists. In your article, you state that countersteering isn't used much
with bicycles, because leaning the body is sufficient to get the bike
turning. (http://www.terrycolon.com/1features/bike2.html )

I disagree. I believe that leaning the body, without changing the geometry
of the arms, does initiate a countersteer which turns the bicycle. If you
lean left, and don't bend your left elbow to compensate, you will push on
the left handlebar, thus countersteering. Try riding your bicycle and
leaning while keeping the bike in a straight direction. It is very easy to
do. You'll notice that you compensate for the lean with the geometry of
your arms, ensuring that you don't countersteer.

Thanks for your articles, by the way.

John Herring
Motorcyclist

On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 09:09:53 -0500, John H. wrote:


Follow behind a car, using a 2 second interval (always) between you and
the car in front. Ride in the center of the lane. As you're following
the car, you'll notice sewer covers, gas line covers, etc., as they come
from beneath the car. Use countersteering to swerve and avoid the
covers, or anything else that pops up from underneath the car. This is a
good exercise in city traffic. It will help you miss the chunk of 4 x 4
that fell off the truck in front of you while on the highway!

With all due respect, I question the safety of this exercise. First, I
would never ride in the center of the lane. That's where all the oils,
nails, and other road debris accumulate. Ride in the left or right
track. The road is generally cleaner. Your visibility to other drivers
is enhanced, and you have slightly more escape paths.

Secondly, concentrating on someones' taillights is bad driving practice.
Concentrating on what comes out from underneath someones' car is even
worse. You should be looking farther down the road to enable reacting to
what the driver ahead of you is reacting to.

It's also my experience that city driving, in traffic, is far more
dangerous, and takes far more concentration and awareness than highway
driving. It seems to me, your exercise only increases the risk. There
are far better places to practice counter-steering.