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HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)

On Fri, 11 May 2007 07:56:55 -0400, "JimH"
wrote:

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...

You probably won't believe this, but when I was a kid and a member of
the Sea Scouts I weighed all of 140 pounds dripping wet. One Saturday
morning a few of us were at the local Scout hangout (Beachcombers out
by Fort Sewall), somebody got the idea that we should try skiing
behind our restored 12 man whale boat.

We rounded up the rest of the whale boat crew and by afternoon had set
up in the harbor - 12 rowers, the Scout Master as coxswain (which was
normally my job) and me as the skier being the lightest guy on the
crew - no wind, flat calm.

Two false starts - third times the charm.

Skied for almost the length of Marblehead harbor. :)

We used to ski behind my 12' Sears aluminum boat with a 5-1/2 hp Johnson
"Sea Horse" engine.

Wasn't easy, but it can be done.

Those were fun days. Nobody worried about even registering the boat.

Eisboch

I had an old 5 1/2 hp Sea Horse and sold it to a fellow boater a few years
back as he collects old outboards and displays them in his finished
basement.

BTW: Mythbusters did a segment on trying to water ski behind a row boat.
I cannot recall if the guy ever got up on his skis.

Yep - he was pulled up by a rowing crew from Stanford I believe. Their
speed was higher than ours was just because of the nature of the
rowing boat - ours was massive and once it got rolling, it kept
rolling. When Mythbusters did it, it was a constant jerking motion -
when I did it it was smooth because of the weight of the boat overcame
the rowing motion.

That was the neat thing about that whale boat. Once it was moving, it
was smooth as silk and required very little effort to keep it going at
a fairly fast clip. We rowed it from Mablehead to Gloucester one
morning - if I remember correctly, it took six hours from harbor mouth
to harbor mouth with 16 aboard - rowers were on rotation.

Needless to say, we sailed it back. :)

HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)

On Fri, 11 May 2007 07:44:47 -0400, "RCE" wrote:

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
.. .

You probably won't believe this, but when I was a kid and a member of
the Sea Scouts I weighed all of 140 pounds dripping wet. One Saturday
morning a few of us were at the local Scout hangout (Beachcombers out
by Fort Sewall), somebody got the idea that we should try skiing
behind our restored 12 man whale boat.

We rounded up the rest of the whale boat crew and by afternoon had set
up in the harbor - 12 rowers, the Scout Master as coxswain (which was
normally my job) and me as the skier being the lightest guy on the
crew - no wind, flat calm.

Two false starts - third times the charm.

Skied for almost the length of Marblehead harbor. :)

We used to ski behind my 12' Sears aluminum boat with a 5-1/2 hp Johnson
"Sea Horse" engine.

Wasn't easy, but it can be done.

Those were fun days. Nobody worried about even registering the boat.

nostalgia

Growing up in Marblehead where a lot of my rather eclectic group of
friends were into everything and anything. Music, sports, drama, we
all had part-time jobs around town, a lot of my friends were sons and
daughters of lobster/fishermen - it was a great time to be a kid.

All the parents knew each other - members of the Lions, Rotary, CG
Aux, Odd Fellows, Masons, K of C - you name it and you couldn't get
away with anything because everybody knew everybody else. :)

The cops would look out for the kids and if things were getting out of
hand, made sure they got back under control just by saying "Hey, I saw
the Mother (or Father) the other night at...". The Harbor Master and
Police boat always knew where we were. More than one occasion when we
got up to something stupid, you'd see the Police or Harbor Master
boats slowly move out of the harbor and just be present - it was
enough to keep things calm and un stupid.

I remember one time I took my 13 foot Whaler Sport out to Halfway Rock
with three of my buddies to go "fishing" (read drink some beer) and
"Chummy" Frost, Scout Master, met us halfway there with the Harbor
Master, confiscated our beer and sent us on our way. Never a word to
the parents and when we got back, the beer was sitting in the Master's
office in the refrigerator. One each was the limit - the rest was
passed along to the adults.

Never happen in today's climate. :)

/nostalgia

HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)

On Thu, 10 May 2007 23:16:58 -0700, "Mike" wrote:

It seems like I sruck a nerve with Jim H. Apparently he didn't comprehend my
statement in which I said that towing behind an outboard required either a
tower (as in wakeboard tower), or a ski pole mounted in the boat. Sure an
outbord can have plenty of power to pull a skiier or boarder, but that big
engine hanging off the transom gets in the way. Most competition ski boats
use a pole mounted just behind the engine (straight drive not vee drive),
and an outboard can do the same thing. However, any seating behind the pole
is useless while pulling a skiier. On the other hand, an inboard, or I/O
can pull with a simple rope hook mounted on the transom, and doesn't
interefere with seating. For most casual skiiers or boarders, this
arrangement is just fine. Maybe Jim thinks you can mount a tow hook on the
outboard itself? That's about the only way to do it so the motor doesn't
interfere with the line.

So, back to what I said, and inboard or I/O is much better for pulling
people or toys.

--Mike

I have skied behind many outboards on many different styles of boats.
The ski rope simply had a Y on the end and one side of the Y hooked to
an eye on the left side of the transom and the other side of the Y
hooked to the eye on the right side. It worked as well as any other
configuration that I have ever used.

Dave Hall

"Chris Larocque" wrote in message
.. .
that's what I meant, for his purposes.... does anyone actually know
why inboards use less gas than outboards?

also, what about 140HP 3.0L? that's what i've been seeing lately....
sure the 190HP versions work fine, that's only 40HP off of the ratings
on the 305's... but the one's im seeing aren't rated for 190, more
like 140...

also anybody have an answer on the whole USPS question? can you take
on of their courses and walk out with a boating license?

On Wed, 9 May 2007 16:08:22 -0700, "Mike" wrote:

mike hinted at there not being
much of a difference b/w an 80HP outboard and a 140HP i/o in terms of
fuel consumption.....

Let's not take me too far out of context. :) I meant for your father's
purposes... motoring out to a fishing hole, setting the hook, and fishing.
For *your* purposes... cruising, pulling toys, etc, yeah, there'll be a
difference.

.now that we're on the bowrider train, it comes down to a 3.0L chrysler
versus the 5.0L chevy.....

I had an 18' Reinell bowrider powered with a 3.0L 190hp Merc. It was fast,
and had plenty of power to pull up a skiier or boarder. A small boat
doesn't
need a huge powerplant. If you're looking at 22-23' boats, then the 5L is
the best way to go. It's always best to have a little power to spare,
rather
than not enough. I would say as a rule of thumb, that anything less than
20'
is fine with a 3L, anything over 20' go with 5L.

Tell your dad that we fish off of our 23' bowrider all the time, and have
never had an issue. BTW, we catch fish like you do. g

--Mike

"Chris Larocque" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 09 May 2007 00:57:02 -0400, Chris Larocque
wrote:

after seeing one local for sale that turned out to have a messed up
hull, my father and I decided to buy a boat. we haven't come up to an
agreement on what kind, because honestly we don't know enough. we're
going half on the purchase price so it's all about compomise here.
(we're looking at 17-21' and from the mid80's to early 90's)

My intention is tubing and general pleasure craft-type activities. a
buddy of mine has a 22 or 23' Cobalt bowrider and having the 2 boats
riding around the lake tubing and cruising is what i'm after. I would
also like to fish with this boat. so for me, a 17-20' bowrider with a
Inboard/Outboard is a compromise.

My father on the other hand wants to fish with it. he says that he
wants to cruise with it too, but we can't seem to agree, as he shows
me ads for these boats I call fishing boats. they're mostly outboards
(in the 80ish HP range) and don't appear to be worth anything as
pleasure boats. they look something like this

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1994-...QQcmdZViewItem

they look to him like they would make pleasure boats, but to me they
look like dhingys.

when i explain to him that the dinky outboard motors won't cut it as
pleasure boats and boats like that lack a proper place to hook a line
for tubing and also lack a teak-wood deck for getting in and out the
boat easily, i get an answer such as:

1. you can hook a skiier up to the hooks for tying the boat up, or
even more funny, you can drill into the fiberglass on the back and
mount one. i don't even think i need to explain what's wrong with
that.

2. as for no deck, you can also mount one. one that hangs over the
stern and mounts inside. and not really a deck either, more or less a
ladder.

since we're going half in on it, I honestly think that the design of
the type of boat my father is looking for isn't what both of us are
looking for. i don't see it being a compromise.

what I keep showing my father is something along this line...

http://newhaven.craigslist.org/boa/325479229.html

he says the 305ci in there is too big, and will eat gas. (he also
thinks that the I/O motor setup adds undue maintence and problems)
that's why he likes those dinky little outbards. i agree with him that
they're a pretty large motor, but the leap from fishing boat to
bowrider adds considerable heft to the weight of the boat

so the basic things a

1. please tell my father that a little fishing boat won't cut it for
all-around pleasure boating. (i constantly try to batter it into his
head that you can fish a bowrider, but you can't ride a fishing boat)

2. please tell him that they don't make bowriders with outboard motors
so he's stuck with an I/O.

3. Please inform both of us about the different types of motors
available for these things... so far i've found the 3.0L chrylser
based mercruiser in newer ones, and the 5.0L Chevy 305 in some of the
older ones.

i know that those old boats are probably made mostly out of steel, and
that they weigh a LOT compared to newer models. add to that the added
weight of the outdrive setup, and barring any sort of huge weight
difference(as the boats get newer), my guess is gonna be that the 3.0L
is gonna come up short on power.

but i guess the most important question that needs answering is...
what kinda power does it actually take to watertube?

to be able to hold its own against bigger boats?

can the square stroke and good low-end torque of a 305 allow you to
be conservative on gas for fishing? i think of it as a lot of
trolling, anchoring and killing the motor, and relatively minimal full
throttle time, making the difference in gas for a 5.0 Vs. a 3.0 pretty
negligible.. i don't want to buy an outrageously oversized motor
either, but i like to say it's better to have it and not need it then
to need it and not have it...

now for the "how to buy it" part...

i've read a lot about spotting problems with the hull, and the motor's
not a real issue, i can easily tell the good from the bad there...,
but the outdrive and steering mechanisms i haven't found good
information on....

i already run like hell away from the ones with lots of salt water
corrosion, but how about basic indicators on the condition of the
outdrive?

excess in/out play on the prop?

turning the prop? maybe that will allow me to hear worn bearings or
gear teeth?

things like that would be awesome...

i'm writing responses as I read them.

Mike: thank you for your response... my father is just as willing to
compromise as I am, but so far noone's told either of us what I wanted
to hear, which is that you can't tow toys with an outboard. once he
hears about this, he'll compromise and we'll argue over which kind of
bowrider we should get instead of which kind of boat we should get.
your information was much more helpful, because i think you understood
best

Everyone else: first thing's first, thank you for your responses...

i had the idea in the back of my mind to take the boating courses,
but this USPS course i don't know about... is that gonna end with me
(and my father) getting our boating licenses? I was out on long
Island sound with my buddy's 22' cobalt and he spent a good deal of
time teaching me all about boating, rules of the water, what things
mean, ect... but priority #1 is walking out with a boating license...
if those courses do both (the ettiquite of the waves, the types of
boats, advantages and disadvantages of stern drive Vs. Outboard, ect,
along with leaving with a boating license, sign me up!)

and no, i don't think we're that ideologically that far away that he
won't accept anything less than a flat bottomed aluminum boat.... but
i guess what i didn't get across in my first post is that he thinks
something less than a bowrider (ie. quazi-fishing/pleasure boats) will
serve our purposes.

mike nailed what i needed to hear, and that's that you can't tow toys
with an outboard.

armed with that information, he'll give up and accept fishing off of a
bowrider... let's not kid ourselves, neither my father or I fish
enough or that enthusiaticially enough to warrant a flat bottomed
aluminum boat. we won't need a livewell, we never catch anything! i
joke but there is some truth behind it as to how recreationally we
fish.

i mean now that he knows we're stuck with an i/o (and a bowrider by
default) it comes down to motor size. mike hinted at there not being
much of a difference b/w an 80HP outboard and a 140HP i/o in terms of
fuel consumption.....

now that we're on the bowrider train, it comes down to a 3.0L chrysler
versus the 5.0L chevy.....

is it fair to say for my father's purposes that the difference in gas
used will be negligable? sort of negligible? i think that's why he
wanted an outboard motor-based boat in the 1st place, lower maintence
plus lower fuel costs... not whether it gave him any advantage out on
the lakes fishing....

if the answer is yes, then it's a 3.0L all the way. if no, then i
guess it's up to me how bad I want to dig myself a hole...

and last question, how about the performance differences b/w the 3.0L
and the 5.0L?

i could imagine it as a issue of power/weight ratio.... i would
imagine these boats i'm looking at to be heavy! is the 140HP 3.0L
gonna come up short because there's just a LOT of weight to move
around... someone commented before that 145hp in a fishing boat would
be FAST... clearly because of the power/weight ratio....

and in your guys opinion, is the power difference worth the 2 litres
of displacement? in weight of the motor i doubt it would make a huge
impact, but gas consumption it would...how do they stack up in terms
of power?

HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...

The cops would look out for the kids and if things were getting out of
hand, made sure they got back under control just by saying "Hey, I saw
the Mother (or Father) the other night at...". The Harbor Master and
Police boat always knew where we were. More than one occasion when we
got up to something stupid, you'd see the Police or Harbor Master
boats slowly move out of the harbor and just be present - it was
enough to keep things calm and un stupid.

Those were days when parents were not afraid to discipline kids when they
needed it.
As a kid my father, at over 6' 4" and 235 lbs was an imposing figure and one
that I really didn't want to **** off by getting caught doing something
stupid. He never physically hit me though ... unless I broke one rule ...
and that was being mouthy or disrespectful to my mother. Then, all hell
would break loose.

My mother, on the other hand, often tried to take matters in her own hands
out of pure frustration. If I really screwed up she'd give me a whack with
whatever she found handy. I remember one time she came after me for doing
something I shouldn't (or maybe it was for *not* doing something I should
have) with a big, wide plastic belt from her raincoat or something. She
let me have it, but the stupid thing was so lightweight I could hardly feel
it. So, being the creative genius that I was at the time, I put on quite a
show of dancing around, yelling "ouch" and whatever while begging her to
stop. She decided the belt would now be her weapon of choice when I needed
some correction. I got away with it for quite a while until one day I
couldn't control myself and started laughing my ass off as she, all red in
the face, whacked away.

Eisboch

HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)

"RCE" wrote in message
...

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...

The cops would look out for the kids and if things were getting out of
hand, made sure they got back under control just by saying "Hey, I saw
the Mother (or Father) the other night at...". The Harbor Master and
Police boat always knew where we were. More than one occasion when we
got up to something stupid, you'd see the Police or Harbor Master
boats slowly move out of the harbor and just be present - it was
enough to keep things calm and un stupid.

Those were days when parents were not afraid to discipline kids when they
needed it.
As a kid my father, at over 6' 4" and 235 lbs was an imposing figure and
one that I really didn't want to **** off by getting caught doing
something stupid. He never physically hit me though ... unless I broke
one rule ... and that was being mouthy or disrespectful to my mother.
Then, all hell would break loose.

My mother, on the other hand, often tried to take matters in her own hands
out of pure frustration. If I really screwed up she'd give me a whack
with whatever she found handy. I remember one time she came after me for
doing something I shouldn't (or maybe it was for *not* doing something I
should have) with a big, wide plastic belt from her raincoat or
something. She let me have it, but the stupid thing was so lightweight I
could hardly feel it. So, being the creative genius that I was at the
time, I put on quite a show of dancing around, yelling "ouch" and whatever
while begging her to stop. She decided the belt would now be her weapon
of choice when I needed some correction. I got away with it for quite a
while until one day I couldn't control myself and started laughing my ass
off as she, all red in the face, whacked away.

Eisboch

That sure brings back memories. I remember many a beat'in with belts, broom
sticks etc....... and I was a fairly good kid.
Did well in school and only had a police at our house a few times. (bad
neighbourhood)
Have to admit..we got pretty good at avoiding the city police.

HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)

On Fri, 11 May 2007 10:16:27 -0400, "RCE" wrote:

Those were days when parents were not afraid to discipline kids when they
needed it.

I was never a problem child discipline wise.

The Dominican Sisters took care of that up until the 5th grade where
the Jesuit brothers took over. :)

For some odd reason, that carried over to public high school.

HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus followup Q's)

Don White wrote:
l and only had a police at our house a few times. (bad
neighbourhood)
Have to admit..we got pretty good at avoiding the city police.

That explains a lot of things.

HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)

HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(kinda long, butworth it)

Gene Kearns wrote:
On Wed, 09 May 2007 10:12:53 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing penned the
following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

On Wed, 09 May 2007 00:57:02 -0400, Chris Larocque
wrote:

3. Please inform both of us about the different types of motors
available for these things... so far i've found the 3.0L chrylser
based mercruiser in newer ones, and the 5.0L Chevy 305 in some of the
older ones.
I'm going to tell both of you right off the bat that this arrangement
isn't going to work.

You both have completely different ideas and will never be happy with
a compromise boat.

He's insisting on one thing, you are insisting on another. One has
un-realistic expectations, the other not so much, but is still unaware
or unwilling to compromise.

Therefore - forget about a partnership - it will only cause the two of
you problems.

Apparently, you are unfamiliar with the "highly modified Bayliner
2252!" It'll do *anything,* even in 40 foot seas!

It's known as the boat for all reasons.