|
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(kinda long, but worth it)
after seeing one local for sale that turned out to have a messed up
hull, my father and I decided to buy a boat. we haven't come up to an agreement on what kind, because honestly we don't know enough. we're going half on the purchase price so it's all about compomise here. (we're looking at 17-21' and from the mid80's to early 90's) My intention is tubing and general pleasure craft-type activities. a buddy of mine has a 22 or 23' Cobalt bowrider and having the 2 boats riding around the lake tubing and cruising is what i'm after. I would also like to fish with this boat. so for me, a 17-20' bowrider with a Inboard/Outboard is a compromise. My father on the other hand wants to fish with it. he says that he wants to cruise with it too, but we can't seem to agree, as he shows me ads for these boats I call fishing boats. they're mostly outboards (in the 80ish HP range) and don't appear to be worth anything as pleasure boats. they look something like this http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1994-...QQcmdZViewItem they look to him like they would make pleasure boats, but to me they look like dhingys. when i explain to him that the dinky outboard motors won't cut it as pleasure boats and boats like that lack a proper place to hook a line for tubing and also lack a teak-wood deck for getting in and out the boat easily, i get an answer such as: 1. you can hook a skiier up to the hooks for tying the boat up, or even more funny, you can drill into the fiberglass on the back and mount one. i don't even think i need to explain what's wrong with that. 2. as for no deck, you can also mount one. one that hangs over the stern and mounts inside. and not really a deck either, more or less a ladder. since we're going half in on it, I honestly think that the design of the type of boat my father is looking for isn't what both of us are looking for. i don't see it being a compromise. what I keep showing my father is something along this line... http://newhaven.craigslist.org/boa/325479229.html he says the 305ci in there is too big, and will eat gas. (he also thinks that the I/O motor setup adds undue maintence and problems) that's why he likes those dinky little outbards. i agree with him that they're a pretty large motor, but the leap from fishing boat to bowrider adds considerable heft to the weight of the boat so the basic things a 1. please tell my father that a little fishing boat won't cut it for all-around pleasure boating. (i constantly try to batter it into his head that you can fish a bowrider, but you can't ride a fishing boat) 2. please tell him that they don't make bowriders with outboard motors so he's stuck with an I/O. 3. Please inform both of us about the different types of motors available for these things... so far i've found the 3.0L chrylser based mercruiser in newer ones, and the 5.0L Chevy 305 in some of the older ones. i know that those old boats are probably made mostly out of steel, and that they weigh a LOT compared to newer models. add to that the added weight of the outdrive setup, and barring any sort of huge weight difference(as the boats get newer), my guess is gonna be that the 3.0L is gonna come up short on power. but i guess the most important question that needs answering is... what kinda power does it actually take to watertube? to be able to hold its own against bigger boats? can the square stroke and good low-end torque of a 305 allow you to be conservative on gas for fishing? i think of it as a lot of trolling, anchoring and killing the motor, and relatively minimal full throttle time, making the difference in gas for a 5.0 Vs. a 3.0 pretty negligible.. i don't want to buy an outrageously oversized motor either, but i like to say it's better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it... now for the "how to buy it" part... i've read a lot about spotting problems with the hull, and the motor's not a real issue, i can easily tell the good from the bad there..., but the outdrive and steering mechanisms i haven't found good information on.... i already run like hell away from the ones with lots of salt water corrosion, but how about basic indicators on the condition of the outdrive? excess in/out play on the prop? turning the prop? maybe that will allow me to hear worn bearings or gear teeth? things like that would be awesome... |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(kinda long, but worth it)
A smallish bowrider is really the ticket for what you want to do. The fact
that you aren't spending a lot of $$ on it makes it a good fishing boat as well. Ask your dad, "what makes a good fishing boat?" Many will tell you nothing less than a flat bottomed boat with a 250HP motor hanging off the back, will do. That's a far cry from what your dad is looking at. :) If fuel usage is a problem, it all depends on what you do. If he wants to fish, then he motors out to where he wants to go, kills the engine, and fishes. He won't be using much more fuel with a 190hp i/o or an 80hp outboard. If you want to pull a tube or skier, then the fuel usage is yours to contend with. Bottom line... without a ski pole or tower, any behind the boat watersports will be problematic with an outboard. All I can say is for you not to compromise. If the boat that you're 1/2 owner of can't do what you want it to do, you're just throwing money away, and you'll be soured by the whole new boating experience. You'd be better off to not get a boat at all. To put it another way, what your father wants will not satisfy what you're looking for in a boat. What *you* are looking for in a boat will be sufficient for both of your needs/wants. Seems like a no brainer to me. Good luck! --Mike "Chris Larocque" wrote in message ... after seeing one local for sale that turned out to have a messed up hull, my father and I decided to buy a boat. we haven't come up to an agreement on what kind, because honestly we don't know enough. we're going half on the purchase price so it's all about compomise here. (we're looking at 17-21' and from the mid80's to early 90's) My intention is tubing and general pleasure craft-type activities. a buddy of mine has a 22 or 23' Cobalt bowrider and having the 2 boats riding around the lake tubing and cruising is what i'm after. I would also like to fish with this boat. so for me, a 17-20' bowrider with a Inboard/Outboard is a compromise. My father on the other hand wants to fish with it. he says that he wants to cruise with it too, but we can't seem to agree, as he shows me ads for these boats I call fishing boats. they're mostly outboards (in the 80ish HP range) and don't appear to be worth anything as pleasure boats. they look something like this http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1994-...QQcmdZViewItem they look to him like they would make pleasure boats, but to me they look like dhingys. when i explain to him that the dinky outboard motors won't cut it as pleasure boats and boats like that lack a proper place to hook a line for tubing and also lack a teak-wood deck for getting in and out the boat easily, i get an answer such as: 1. you can hook a skiier up to the hooks for tying the boat up, or even more funny, you can drill into the fiberglass on the back and mount one. i don't even think i need to explain what's wrong with that. 2. as for no deck, you can also mount one. one that hangs over the stern and mounts inside. and not really a deck either, more or less a ladder. since we're going half in on it, I honestly think that the design of the type of boat my father is looking for isn't what both of us are looking for. i don't see it being a compromise. what I keep showing my father is something along this line... http://newhaven.craigslist.org/boa/325479229.html he says the 305ci in there is too big, and will eat gas. (he also thinks that the I/O motor setup adds undue maintence and problems) that's why he likes those dinky little outbards. i agree with him that they're a pretty large motor, but the leap from fishing boat to bowrider adds considerable heft to the weight of the boat so the basic things a 1. please tell my father that a little fishing boat won't cut it for all-around pleasure boating. (i constantly try to batter it into his head that you can fish a bowrider, but you can't ride a fishing boat) 2. please tell him that they don't make bowriders with outboard motors so he's stuck with an I/O. 3. Please inform both of us about the different types of motors available for these things... so far i've found the 3.0L chrylser based mercruiser in newer ones, and the 5.0L Chevy 305 in some of the older ones. i know that those old boats are probably made mostly out of steel, and that they weigh a LOT compared to newer models. add to that the added weight of the outdrive setup, and barring any sort of huge weight difference(as the boats get newer), my guess is gonna be that the 3.0L is gonna come up short on power. but i guess the most important question that needs answering is... what kinda power does it actually take to watertube? to be able to hold its own against bigger boats? can the square stroke and good low-end torque of a 305 allow you to be conservative on gas for fishing? i think of it as a lot of trolling, anchoring and killing the motor, and relatively minimal full throttle time, making the difference in gas for a 5.0 Vs. a 3.0 pretty negligible.. i don't want to buy an outrageously oversized motor either, but i like to say it's better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it... now for the "how to buy it" part... i've read a lot about spotting problems with the hull, and the motor's not a real issue, i can easily tell the good from the bad there..., but the outdrive and steering mechanisms i haven't found good information on.... i already run like hell away from the ones with lots of salt water corrosion, but how about basic indicators on the condition of the outdrive? excess in/out play on the prop? turning the prop? maybe that will allow me to hear worn bearings or gear teeth? things like that would be awesome... |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(kinda long, but worth it)
On Wed, 09 May 2007 00:57:02 -0400, Chris Larocque
wrote: 3. Please inform both of us about the different types of motors available for these things... so far i've found the 3.0L chrylser based mercruiser in newer ones, and the 5.0L Chevy 305 in some of the older ones. I'm going to tell both of you right off the bat that this arrangement isn't going to work. You both have completely different ideas and will never be happy with a compromise boat. He's insisting on one thing, you are insisting on another. One has un-realistic expectations, the other not so much, but is still unaware or unwilling to compromise. Therefore - forget about a partnership - it will only cause the two of you problems. |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(kinda long, but worth it)
You should get your own boat. What you want and what your father wants are
two different things. Fish-n-Ski boats are just boats that are not really good at either. "Chris Larocque" wrote in message ... after seeing one local for sale that turned out to have a messed up hull, my father and I decided to buy a boat. we haven't come up to an agreement on what kind, because honestly we don't know enough. we're going half on the purchase price so it's all about compomise here. (we're looking at 17-21' and from the mid80's to early 90's) My intention is tubing and general pleasure craft-type activities. a buddy of mine has a 22 or 23' Cobalt bowrider and having the 2 boats riding around the lake tubing and cruising is what i'm after. I would also like to fish with this boat. so for me, a 17-20' bowrider with a Inboard/Outboard is a compromise. My father on the other hand wants to fish with it. he says that he wants to cruise with it too, but we can't seem to agree, as he shows me ads for these boats I call fishing boats. they're mostly outboards (in the 80ish HP range) and don't appear to be worth anything as pleasure boats. they look something like this http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1994-...QQcmdZViewItem they look to him like they would make pleasure boats, but to me they look like dhingys. when i explain to him that the dinky outboard motors won't cut it as pleasure boats and boats like that lack a proper place to hook a line for tubing and also lack a teak-wood deck for getting in and out the boat easily, i get an answer such as: 1. you can hook a skiier up to the hooks for tying the boat up, or even more funny, you can drill into the fiberglass on the back and mount one. i don't even think i need to explain what's wrong with that. 2. as for no deck, you can also mount one. one that hangs over the stern and mounts inside. and not really a deck either, more or less a ladder. since we're going half in on it, I honestly think that the design of the type of boat my father is looking for isn't what both of us are looking for. i don't see it being a compromise. what I keep showing my father is something along this line... http://newhaven.craigslist.org/boa/325479229.html he says the 305ci in there is too big, and will eat gas. (he also thinks that the I/O motor setup adds undue maintence and problems) that's why he likes those dinky little outbards. i agree with him that they're a pretty large motor, but the leap from fishing boat to bowrider adds considerable heft to the weight of the boat so the basic things a 1. please tell my father that a little fishing boat won't cut it for all-around pleasure boating. (i constantly try to batter it into his head that you can fish a bowrider, but you can't ride a fishing boat) 2. please tell him that they don't make bowriders with outboard motors so he's stuck with an I/O. 3. Please inform both of us about the different types of motors available for these things... so far i've found the 3.0L chrylser based mercruiser in newer ones, and the 5.0L Chevy 305 in some of the older ones. i know that those old boats are probably made mostly out of steel, and that they weigh a LOT compared to newer models. add to that the added weight of the outdrive setup, and barring any sort of huge weight difference(as the boats get newer), my guess is gonna be that the 3.0L is gonna come up short on power. but i guess the most important question that needs answering is... what kinda power does it actually take to watertube? to be able to hold its own against bigger boats? can the square stroke and good low-end torque of a 305 allow you to be conservative on gas for fishing? i think of it as a lot of trolling, anchoring and killing the motor, and relatively minimal full throttle time, making the difference in gas for a 5.0 Vs. a 3.0 pretty negligible.. i don't want to buy an outrageously oversized motor either, but i like to say it's better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it... now for the "how to buy it" part... i've read a lot about spotting problems with the hull, and the motor's not a real issue, i can easily tell the good from the bad there..., but the outdrive and steering mechanisms i haven't found good information on.... i already run like hell away from the ones with lots of salt water corrosion, but how about basic indicators on the condition of the outdrive? excess in/out play on the prop? turning the prop? maybe that will allow me to hear worn bearings or gear teeth? things like that would be awesome... |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(kinda long, but worth it)
You should know that there are plenty of 16" to 18" bowriders out
there with outboards. Outboards also come in sizes far larger than 80HP. I personally do not think that an I/O is more maintenance than an outboard, although they each have their pluses and minuses. The boat that I currently own is a 19" cuddy cabin with a 3.0 L I/O. The guy I bought it from had it set up for fishing on Lake Erie, with 8 pole holders mounted and the back seats removed, so apparently you can sish from anything. I got the cuddy due to small grandchildren, but doing it over a bowrider would be a better family boat. Once dad sticks hooks all over all those plastic seats and gets fish guts all over all that carpet though you will begin to understand the reason for the design of bass boats ;-) (BTW where are you putting that live well on that bowrider?) Dave Hall On Wed, 09 May 2007 00:57:02 -0400, Chris Larocque wrote: after seeing one local for sale that turned out to have a messed up hull, my father and I decided to buy a boat. we haven't come up to an agreement on what kind, because honestly we don't know enough. we're going half on the purchase price so it's all about compomise here. (we're looking at 17-21' and from the mid80's to early 90's) My intention is tubing and general pleasure craft-type activities. a buddy of mine has a 22 or 23' Cobalt bowrider and having the 2 boats riding around the lake tubing and cruising is what i'm after. I would also like to fish with this boat. so for me, a 17-20' bowrider with a Inboard/Outboard is a compromise. My father on the other hand wants to fish with it. he says that he wants to cruise with it too, but we can't seem to agree, as he shows me ads for these boats I call fishing boats. they're mostly outboards (in the 80ish HP range) and don't appear to be worth anything as pleasure boats. they look something like this http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1994-...QQcmdZViewItem they look to him like they would make pleasure boats, but to me they look like dhingys. when i explain to him that the dinky outboard motors won't cut it as pleasure boats and boats like that lack a proper place to hook a line for tubing and also lack a teak-wood deck for getting in and out the boat easily, i get an answer such as: 1. you can hook a skiier up to the hooks for tying the boat up, or even more funny, you can drill into the fiberglass on the back and mount one. i don't even think i need to explain what's wrong with that. 2. as for no deck, you can also mount one. one that hangs over the stern and mounts inside. and not really a deck either, more or less a ladder. since we're going half in on it, I honestly think that the design of the type of boat my father is looking for isn't what both of us are looking for. i don't see it being a compromise. what I keep showing my father is something along this line... http://newhaven.craigslist.org/boa/325479229.html he says the 305ci in there is too big, and will eat gas. (he also thinks that the I/O motor setup adds undue maintence and problems) that's why he likes those dinky little outbards. i agree with him that they're a pretty large motor, but the leap from fishing boat to bowrider adds considerable heft to the weight of the boat so the basic things a 1. please tell my father that a little fishing boat won't cut it for all-around pleasure boating. (i constantly try to batter it into his head that you can fish a bowrider, but you can't ride a fishing boat) 2. please tell him that they don't make bowriders with outboard motors so he's stuck with an I/O. 3. Please inform both of us about the different types of motors available for these things... so far i've found the 3.0L chrylser based mercruiser in newer ones, and the 5.0L Chevy 305 in some of the older ones. i know that those old boats are probably made mostly out of steel, and that they weigh a LOT compared to newer models. add to that the added weight of the outdrive setup, and barring any sort of huge weight difference(as the boats get newer), my guess is gonna be that the 3.0L is gonna come up short on power. but i guess the most important question that needs answering is... what kinda power does it actually take to watertube? to be able to hold its own against bigger boats? can the square stroke and good low-end torque of a 305 allow you to be conservative on gas for fishing? i think of it as a lot of trolling, anchoring and killing the motor, and relatively minimal full throttle time, making the difference in gas for a 5.0 Vs. a 3.0 pretty negligible.. i don't want to buy an outrageously oversized motor either, but i like to say it's better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it... now for the "how to buy it" part... i've read a lot about spotting problems with the hull, and the motor's not a real issue, i can easily tell the good from the bad there..., but the outdrive and steering mechanisms i haven't found good information on.... i already run like hell away from the ones with lots of salt water corrosion, but how about basic indicators on the condition of the outdrive? excess in/out play on the prop? turning the prop? maybe that will allow me to hear worn bearings or gear teeth? things like that would be awesome... |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(kinda long, butworth it)
Chris Larocque wrote:
after seeing one local for sale that turned out to have a messed up hull, my father and I decided to buy a boat. we haven't come up to an agreement on what kind, because honestly we don't know enough. Stop right there. People may be getting sick of me pushing this all the time, but you and your father need to take a boating course - now! Find and contact Power Squadron nearby by looking he http://www.usps.org/cgi-bin/sfind.cgi Among all the safety and piloting stuff - stuff that you absolutely positively need to know - the course covers types of boats and their uses, engine types and their advantages/disadvantages, as well as watersports like tubing. Plus, if the two of you take the classes together, it may help you reach a consensus. You'll also meet other local boaters who may be able to help you through this. I would also like to fish with this boat. so for me, a 17-20' bowrider with a Inboard/Outboard is a compromise. My father on the other hand wants to fish with it. he says that he wants to cruise with it too, but we can't seem to agree, Your should also seriously consider the waters in which you will be boating. On a small lake or calm inland waters a 17-20' boat may be fine. Out on Long Island Sound or the Great Lakes or the ocean you may find that a boat that small may not cut it except on the calmest of days. As far as a bowrider vs a center console (which, from what you describe, seems to be what your father would like, I have seen many a bowrider used for fishing, and many a center console being used for family fun and watersports. when i explain to him that the dinky outboard motors won't cut it as pleasure boats and boats like that lack a proper place to hook a line for tubing Not true - when an outboard is used for watersports the tow line straddles the outboard. Many, many, many outboard boats are used for watersports - it is not a problem. and also lack a teak-wood deck for getting in and out the boat easily Its called a swim platform if it spans the entire transom, and a swim step if mounts on just a portion of the platform. They are also made of fiberglass and sometimes plastic. Many outboard boats have swim steps that can facilitate your watersports needs. you can hook a skiier up to the hooks for tying the boat up They are called "cleats". even more funny, you can drill into the fiberglass on the back and mount one. i don't even think i need to explain what's wrong with that. It is done all the time. Just make sure you are well above the waterline and through-bolt to sturdy backplates. since we're going half in on it, I honestly think that the design of the type of boat my father is looking for isn't what both of us are looking for. i don't see it being a compromise. Keep looking (and take the course). he says the 305ci in there is too big, and will eat gas. (he also thinks that the I/O motor setup adds undue maintence and problems) that's why he likes those dinky little outbards. i agree with him that they're a pretty large motor, but the leap from fishing boat to bowrider adds considerable heft to the weight of the boat There are numerous advantages to outboards. He is also right that I/O's have additional maintenance requirements. There are also advantages to I/O's. Its not so simple. Also, gas usage will depend as much on usage as it does on engine size/type. A motor that is too small and constantly laboring could easily burn more fuel than a larger engine that's purring easily along. 1. please tell my father that a little fishing boat won't cut it for all-around pleasure boating. (i constantly try to batter it into his head that you can fish a bowrider, but you can't ride a fishing boat) That would be a lie. 2. please tell him that they don't make bowriders with outboard motors so he's stuck with an I/O. That would also be a lie. i know that those old boats are probably made mostly out of steel Most recreational boats have been made of fiberglass for decades. Prior to that, wood. my guess is gonna be that the 3.0L is gonna come up short on power. You'll do fine with a 3.0L on most 17-19 foot boats. but i guess the most important question that needs answering is... what kinda power does it actually take to watertube? This depends on what boat you buy. I had a 16 foot with a 65 horse outboard that was great for watersports. An 85 horse would probably have been even better. Recently had a 19 foot bowrider with a 3.0L that also did fine with a tube. to be able to hold its own against bigger boats? Please don't go boating with this attitude. You are not going to be "against" anyone. Handling your boat in crowded waters is more a matter of good seamanship. Take the course. can the square stroke and good low-end torque of a 305 allow you to be conservative on gas for fishing? i think of it as a lot of trolling, anchoring and killing the motor, and relatively minimal full throttle time Many add small secondary trolling motors for use once they get to their fishing spot. i don't want to buy an outrageously oversized motor either, but i like to say it's better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it... Get the right sized motor for the boat you buy. Oversizing is overkill and possibly dangerous. Check the boat's "Capacity Plate" - it will tell you maximum power the boat can handle. Exceeding it is unlawful and not very bright. now for the "how to buy it" part... Do yourself a favor and have the boat surveyed before you buy. You can't check everything a surveyor checks. Worth the money. And take a good boating course - NOW. Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(kinda long, but worth it)
"Dave Hall" wrote in message ... You should know that there are plenty of 16" to 18" bowriders out Are we talking "model" boats here? 8) Sorry couldn't resist. there with outboards. Outboards also come in sizes far larger than 80HP. I personally do not think that an I/O is more maintenance than an outboard, although they each have their pluses and minuses. The boat that I currently own is a 19" cuddy cabin with a 3.0 L I/O. The guy I bought it from had it set up for fishing on Lake Erie, with 8 pole holders mounted and the back seats removed, so apparently you can sish from anything. I got the cuddy due to small grandchildren, but doing it over a bowrider would be a better family boat. Once dad sticks hooks all over all those plastic seats and gets fish guts all over all that carpet though you will begin to understand the reason for the design of bass boats ;-) (BTW where are you putting that live well on that bowrider?) Dave Hall On Wed, 09 May 2007 00:57:02 -0400, Chris Larocque wrote: after seeing one local for sale that turned out to have a messed up hull, my father and I decided to buy a boat. we haven't come up to an agreement on what kind, because honestly we don't know enough. we're going half on the purchase price so it's all about compomise here. (we're looking at 17-21' and from the mid80's to early 90's) My intention is tubing and general pleasure craft-type activities. a buddy of mine has a 22 or 23' Cobalt bowrider and having the 2 boats riding around the lake tubing and cruising is what i'm after. I would also like to fish with this boat. so for me, a 17-20' bowrider with a Inboard/Outboard is a compromise. My father on the other hand wants to fish with it. he says that he wants to cruise with it too, but we can't seem to agree, as he shows me ads for these boats I call fishing boats. they're mostly outboards (in the 80ish HP range) and don't appear to be worth anything as pleasure boats. they look something like this http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1994-...QQcmdZViewItem they look to him like they would make pleasure boats, but to me they look like dhingys. when i explain to him that the dinky outboard motors won't cut it as pleasure boats and boats like that lack a proper place to hook a line for tubing and also lack a teak-wood deck for getting in and out the boat easily, i get an answer such as: 1. you can hook a skiier up to the hooks for tying the boat up, or even more funny, you can drill into the fiberglass on the back and mount one. i don't even think i need to explain what's wrong with that. 2. as for no deck, you can also mount one. one that hangs over the stern and mounts inside. and not really a deck either, more or less a ladder. since we're going half in on it, I honestly think that the design of the type of boat my father is looking for isn't what both of us are looking for. i don't see it being a compromise. what I keep showing my father is something along this line... http://newhaven.craigslist.org/boa/325479229.html he says the 305ci in there is too big, and will eat gas. (he also thinks that the I/O motor setup adds undue maintence and problems) that's why he likes those dinky little outbards. i agree with him that they're a pretty large motor, but the leap from fishing boat to bowrider adds considerable heft to the weight of the boat so the basic things a 1. please tell my father that a little fishing boat won't cut it for all-around pleasure boating. (i constantly try to batter it into his head that you can fish a bowrider, but you can't ride a fishing boat) 2. please tell him that they don't make bowriders with outboard motors so he's stuck with an I/O. 3. Please inform both of us about the different types of motors available for these things... so far i've found the 3.0L chrylser based mercruiser in newer ones, and the 5.0L Chevy 305 in some of the older ones. i know that those old boats are probably made mostly out of steel, and that they weigh a LOT compared to newer models. add to that the added weight of the outdrive setup, and barring any sort of huge weight difference(as the boats get newer), my guess is gonna be that the 3.0L is gonna come up short on power. but i guess the most important question that needs answering is... what kinda power does it actually take to watertube? to be able to hold its own against bigger boats? can the square stroke and good low-end torque of a 305 allow you to be conservative on gas for fishing? i think of it as a lot of trolling, anchoring and killing the motor, and relatively minimal full throttle time, making the difference in gas for a 5.0 Vs. a 3.0 pretty negligible.. i don't want to buy an outrageously oversized motor either, but i like to say it's better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it... now for the "how to buy it" part... i've read a lot about spotting problems with the hull, and the motor's not a real issue, i can easily tell the good from the bad there..., but the outdrive and steering mechanisms i haven't found good information on.... i already run like hell away from the ones with lots of salt water corrosion, but how about basic indicators on the condition of the outdrive? excess in/out play on the prop? turning the prop? maybe that will allow me to hear worn bearings or gear teeth? things like that would be awesome... |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(kinda long, but worth it)
On May 9, 12:57 am, Chris Larocque
wrote: I hope you and your dad agree that you probably need two boats, or he needs to fish off your pleasure boat. Anyway, it might help to know more about where you are going to boat and fish. Your dad might be able to get away with a big slow work skiff with a small outboard while you get the pull boat. |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(kinda long, but worth it)
On Wed, 9 May 2007 10:36:08 -0400, "D.Duck" wrote:
"Dave Hall" wrote in message .. . You should know that there are plenty of 16" to 18" bowriders out Are we talking "model" boats here? 8) Sorry couldn't resist. I don't know why I hit the shift key on those...I did mean ' not " there with outboards. Outboards also come in sizes far larger than 80HP. I personally do not think that an I/O is more maintenance than an outboard, although they each have their pluses and minuses. The boat that I currently own is a 19" cuddy cabin with a 3.0 L I/O. The guy I bought it from had it set up for fishing on Lake Erie, with 8 pole holders mounted and the back seats removed, so apparently you can sish from anything. I got the cuddy due to small grandchildren, but doing it over a bowrider would be a better family boat. Once dad sticks hooks all over all those plastic seats and gets fish guts all over all that carpet though you will begin to understand the reason for the design of bass boats ;-) (BTW where are you putting that live well on that bowrider?) Dave Hall On Wed, 09 May 2007 00:57:02 -0400, Chris Larocque wrote: after seeing one local for sale that turned out to have a messed up hull, my father and I decided to buy a boat. we haven't come up to an agreement on what kind, because honestly we don't know enough. we're going half on the purchase price so it's all about compomise here. (we're looking at 17-21' and from the mid80's to early 90's) My intention is tubing and general pleasure craft-type activities. a buddy of mine has a 22 or 23' Cobalt bowrider and having the 2 boats riding around the lake tubing and cruising is what i'm after. I would also like to fish with this boat. so for me, a 17-20' bowrider with a Inboard/Outboard is a compromise. My father on the other hand wants to fish with it. he says that he wants to cruise with it too, but we can't seem to agree, as he shows me ads for these boats I call fishing boats. they're mostly outboards (in the 80ish HP range) and don't appear to be worth anything as pleasure boats. they look something like this http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1994-...QQcmdZViewItem they look to him like they would make pleasure boats, but to me they look like dhingys. when i explain to him that the dinky outboard motors won't cut it as pleasure boats and boats like that lack a proper place to hook a line for tubing and also lack a teak-wood deck for getting in and out the boat easily, i get an answer such as: 1. you can hook a skiier up to the hooks for tying the boat up, or even more funny, you can drill into the fiberglass on the back and mount one. i don't even think i need to explain what's wrong with that. 2. as for no deck, you can also mount one. one that hangs over the stern and mounts inside. and not really a deck either, more or less a ladder. since we're going half in on it, I honestly think that the design of the type of boat my father is looking for isn't what both of us are looking for. i don't see it being a compromise. what I keep showing my father is something along this line... http://newhaven.craigslist.org/boa/325479229.html he says the 305ci in there is too big, and will eat gas. (he also thinks that the I/O motor setup adds undue maintence and problems) that's why he likes those dinky little outbards. i agree with him that they're a pretty large motor, but the leap from fishing boat to bowrider adds considerable heft to the weight of the boat so the basic things a 1. please tell my father that a little fishing boat won't cut it for all-around pleasure boating. (i constantly try to batter it into his head that you can fish a bowrider, but you can't ride a fishing boat) 2. please tell him that they don't make bowriders with outboard motors so he's stuck with an I/O. 3. Please inform both of us about the different types of motors available for these things... so far i've found the 3.0L chrylser based mercruiser in newer ones, and the 5.0L Chevy 305 in some of the older ones. i know that those old boats are probably made mostly out of steel, and that they weigh a LOT compared to newer models. add to that the added weight of the outdrive setup, and barring any sort of huge weight difference(as the boats get newer), my guess is gonna be that the 3.0L is gonna come up short on power. but i guess the most important question that needs answering is... what kinda power does it actually take to watertube? to be able to hold its own against bigger boats? can the square stroke and good low-end torque of a 305 allow you to be conservative on gas for fishing? i think of it as a lot of trolling, anchoring and killing the motor, and relatively minimal full throttle time, making the difference in gas for a 5.0 Vs. a 3.0 pretty negligible.. i don't want to buy an outrageously oversized motor either, but i like to say it's better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it... now for the "how to buy it" part... i've read a lot about spotting problems with the hull, and the motor's not a real issue, i can easily tell the good from the bad there..., but the outdrive and steering mechanisms i haven't found good information on.... i already run like hell away from the ones with lots of salt water corrosion, but how about basic indicators on the condition of the outdrive? excess in/out play on the prop? turning the prop? maybe that will allow me to hear worn bearings or gear teeth? things like that would be awesome... |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(kinda long, but worth it)
"Chris Larocque" wrote in message ... after seeing one local for sale that turned out to have a messed up hull, my father and I decided to buy a boat. we haven't come up to an agreement on what kind, because honestly we don't know enough. we're going half on the purchase price so it's all about compomise here. (we're looking at 17-21' and from the mid80's to early 90's) My intention is tubing and general pleasure craft-type activities. a buddy of mine has a 22 or 23' Cobalt bowrider and having the 2 boats riding around the lake tubing and cruising is what i'm after. I would also like to fish with this boat. so for me, a 17-20' bowrider with a Inboard/Outboard is a compromise. My father on the other hand wants to fish with it. he says that he wants to cruise with it too, but we can't seem to agree, as he shows me ads for these boats I call fishing boats. they're mostly outboards (in the 80ish HP range) and don't appear to be worth anything as pleasure boats. they look something like this http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1994-...QQcmdZViewItem FYI 115hp on 19 foot aluminum boat, this boat will FLY! You would not only be able to tube but water-ski as well, warning a good water skier will pull the backend of this boat all over the water. But you are correct for taking a family or your friends out for a Sunday on the lake - this is not what you have in mind. If you and your fathers ideas are that far apart - do not try to do a partnership with him. A bow rider would probably be to big for him to launch so he wouldn't use it. An open aluminum boat would not be big enough for you to relax in, so you wouldn't use it. My suggestion, a fish and ski, first search: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/W-VID...spagenameZWDVW You want over 100 hp, your dad is correct an outboard is usually cheaper to have repaired and less maintenance if you trailer it. An I/o uses less gas, but the new outboards are a lot more efficient. When you pull it out the water drains out so you don't have to mess with draining the block. |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(kinda long, but worth it)
"Larry Weiss" wrote in message ... Chris Larocque wrote: after seeing one local for sale that turned out to have a messed up hull, my father and I decided to buy a boat. we haven't come up to an agreement on what kind, because honestly we don't know enough. Stop right there. People may be getting sick of me pushing this all the time, but you and your father need to take a boating course - now! Find and contact Power Squadron nearby by looking he http://www.usps.org/cgi-bin/sfind.cgi Among all the safety and piloting stuff - stuff that you absolutely positively need to know - the course covers types of boats and their uses, engine types and their advantages/disadvantages, as well as watersports like tubing. Plus, if the two of you take the classes together, it may help you reach a consensus. You'll also meet other local boaters who may be able to help you through this. Best post so far!!!!! I would also like to fish with this boat. so for me, a 17-20' bowrider with a Inboard/Outboard is a compromise. My father on the other hand wants to fish with it. he says that he wants to cruise with it too, but we can't seem to agree, Your should also seriously consider the waters in which you will be boating. On a small lake or calm inland waters a 17-20' boat may be fine. Out on Long Island Sound or the Great Lakes or the ocean you may find that a boat that small may not cut it except on the calmest of days. As far as a bowrider vs a center console (which, from what you describe, seems to be what your father would like, I have seen many a bowrider used for fishing, and many a center console being used for family fun and watersports. One other major consideration. Are you going to trailer it or park it? If trailer, what kind of tow vehicle do you have? The bigger the boat, the bigger the tow vehicle required and the harder it is to launch the boat. |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)
On Wed, 09 May 2007 00:57:02 -0400, Chris Larocque
wrote: after seeing one local for sale that turned out to have a messed up hull, my father and I decided to buy a boat. we haven't come up to an agreement on what kind, because honestly we don't know enough. we're going half on the purchase price so it's all about compomise here. (we're looking at 17-21' and from the mid80's to early 90's) My intention is tubing and general pleasure craft-type activities. a buddy of mine has a 22 or 23' Cobalt bowrider and having the 2 boats riding around the lake tubing and cruising is what i'm after. I would also like to fish with this boat. so for me, a 17-20' bowrider with a Inboard/Outboard is a compromise. My father on the other hand wants to fish with it. he says that he wants to cruise with it too, but we can't seem to agree, as he shows me ads for these boats I call fishing boats. they're mostly outboards (in the 80ish HP range) and don't appear to be worth anything as pleasure boats. they look something like this http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1994-...QQcmdZViewItem they look to him like they would make pleasure boats, but to me they look like dhingys. when i explain to him that the dinky outboard motors won't cut it as pleasure boats and boats like that lack a proper place to hook a line for tubing and also lack a teak-wood deck for getting in and out the boat easily, i get an answer such as: 1. you can hook a skiier up to the hooks for tying the boat up, or even more funny, you can drill into the fiberglass on the back and mount one. i don't even think i need to explain what's wrong with that. 2. as for no deck, you can also mount one. one that hangs over the stern and mounts inside. and not really a deck either, more or less a ladder. since we're going half in on it, I honestly think that the design of the type of boat my father is looking for isn't what both of us are looking for. i don't see it being a compromise. what I keep showing my father is something along this line... http://newhaven.craigslist.org/boa/325479229.html he says the 305ci in there is too big, and will eat gas. (he also thinks that the I/O motor setup adds undue maintence and problems) that's why he likes those dinky little outbards. i agree with him that they're a pretty large motor, but the leap from fishing boat to bowrider adds considerable heft to the weight of the boat so the basic things a 1. please tell my father that a little fishing boat won't cut it for all-around pleasure boating. (i constantly try to batter it into his head that you can fish a bowrider, but you can't ride a fishing boat) 2. please tell him that they don't make bowriders with outboard motors so he's stuck with an I/O. 3. Please inform both of us about the different types of motors available for these things... so far i've found the 3.0L chrylser based mercruiser in newer ones, and the 5.0L Chevy 305 in some of the older ones. i know that those old boats are probably made mostly out of steel, and that they weigh a LOT compared to newer models. add to that the added weight of the outdrive setup, and barring any sort of huge weight difference(as the boats get newer), my guess is gonna be that the 3.0L is gonna come up short on power. but i guess the most important question that needs answering is... what kinda power does it actually take to watertube? to be able to hold its own against bigger boats? can the square stroke and good low-end torque of a 305 allow you to be conservative on gas for fishing? i think of it as a lot of trolling, anchoring and killing the motor, and relatively minimal full throttle time, making the difference in gas for a 5.0 Vs. a 3.0 pretty negligible.. i don't want to buy an outrageously oversized motor either, but i like to say it's better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it... now for the "how to buy it" part... i've read a lot about spotting problems with the hull, and the motor's not a real issue, i can easily tell the good from the bad there..., but the outdrive and steering mechanisms i haven't found good information on.... i already run like hell away from the ones with lots of salt water corrosion, but how about basic indicators on the condition of the outdrive? excess in/out play on the prop? turning the prop? maybe that will allow me to hear worn bearings or gear teeth? things like that would be awesome... i'm writing responses as I read them. Mike: thank you for your response... my father is just as willing to compromise as I am, but so far noone's told either of us what I wanted to hear, which is that you can't tow toys with an outboard. once he hears about this, he'll compromise and we'll argue over which kind of bowrider we should get instead of which kind of boat we should get. your information was much more helpful, because i think you understood best Everyone else: first thing's first, thank you for your responses... i had the idea in the back of my mind to take the boating courses, but this USPS course i don't know about... is that gonna end with me (and my father) getting our boating licenses? I was out on long Island sound with my buddy's 22' cobalt and he spent a good deal of time teaching me all about boating, rules of the water, what things mean, ect... but priority #1 is walking out with a boating license... if those courses do both (the ettiquite of the waves, the types of boats, advantages and disadvantages of stern drive Vs. Outboard, ect, along with leaving with a boating license, sign me up!) and no, i don't think we're that ideologically that far away that he won't accept anything less than a flat bottomed aluminum boat.... but i guess what i didn't get across in my first post is that he thinks something less than a bowrider (ie. quazi-fishing/pleasure boats) will serve our purposes. mike nailed what i needed to hear, and that's that you can't tow toys with an outboard. armed with that information, he'll give up and accept fishing off of a bowrider... let's not kid ourselves, neither my father or I fish enough or that enthusiaticially enough to warrant a flat bottomed aluminum boat. we won't need a livewell, we never catch anything! i joke but there is some truth behind it as to how recreationally we fish. i mean now that he knows we're stuck with an i/o (and a bowrider by default) it comes down to motor size. mike hinted at there not being much of a difference b/w an 80HP outboard and a 140HP i/o in terms of fuel consumption..... now that we're on the bowrider train, it comes down to a 3.0L chrysler versus the 5.0L chevy..... is it fair to say for my father's purposes that the difference in gas used will be negligable? sort of negligible? i think that's why he wanted an outboard motor-based boat in the 1st place, lower maintence plus lower fuel costs... not whether it gave him any advantage out on the lakes fishing.... if the answer is yes, then it's a 3.0L all the way. if no, then i guess it's up to me how bad I want to dig myself a hole... and last question, how about the performance differences b/w the 3.0L and the 5.0L? i could imagine it as a issue of power/weight ratio.... i would imagine these boats i'm looking at to be heavy! is the 140HP 3.0L gonna come up short because there's just a LOT of weight to move around... someone commented before that 145hp in a fishing boat would be FAST... clearly because of the power/weight ratio.... and in your guys opinion, is the power difference worth the 2 litres of displacement? in weight of the motor i doubt it would make a huge impact, but gas consumption it would...how do they stack up in terms of power? |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)
mike hinted at there not being
much of a difference b/w an 80HP outboard and a 140HP i/o in terms of fuel consumption..... Let's not take me too far out of context. :) I meant for your father's purposes... motoring out to a fishing hole, setting the hook, and fishing. For *your* purposes... cruising, pulling toys, etc, yeah, there'll be a difference. .now that we're on the bowrider train, it comes down to a 3.0L chrysler versus the 5.0L chevy..... I had an 18' Reinell bowrider powered with a 3.0L 190hp Merc. It was fast, and had plenty of power to pull up a skiier or boarder. A small boat doesn't need a huge powerplant. If you're looking at 22-23' boats, then the 5L is the best way to go. It's always best to have a little power to spare, rather than not enough. I would say as a rule of thumb, that anything less than 20' is fine with a 3L, anything over 20' go with 5L. Tell your dad that we fish off of our 23' bowrider all the time, and have never had an issue. BTW, we catch fish like you do. g --Mike "Chris Larocque" wrote in message ... On Wed, 09 May 2007 00:57:02 -0400, Chris Larocque wrote: after seeing one local for sale that turned out to have a messed up hull, my father and I decided to buy a boat. we haven't come up to an agreement on what kind, because honestly we don't know enough. we're going half on the purchase price so it's all about compomise here. (we're looking at 17-21' and from the mid80's to early 90's) My intention is tubing and general pleasure craft-type activities. a buddy of mine has a 22 or 23' Cobalt bowrider and having the 2 boats riding around the lake tubing and cruising is what i'm after. I would also like to fish with this boat. so for me, a 17-20' bowrider with a Inboard/Outboard is a compromise. My father on the other hand wants to fish with it. he says that he wants to cruise with it too, but we can't seem to agree, as he shows me ads for these boats I call fishing boats. they're mostly outboards (in the 80ish HP range) and don't appear to be worth anything as pleasure boats. they look something like this http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1994-...QQcmdZViewItem they look to him like they would make pleasure boats, but to me they look like dhingys. when i explain to him that the dinky outboard motors won't cut it as pleasure boats and boats like that lack a proper place to hook a line for tubing and also lack a teak-wood deck for getting in and out the boat easily, i get an answer such as: 1. you can hook a skiier up to the hooks for tying the boat up, or even more funny, you can drill into the fiberglass on the back and mount one. i don't even think i need to explain what's wrong with that. 2. as for no deck, you can also mount one. one that hangs over the stern and mounts inside. and not really a deck either, more or less a ladder. since we're going half in on it, I honestly think that the design of the type of boat my father is looking for isn't what both of us are looking for. i don't see it being a compromise. what I keep showing my father is something along this line... http://newhaven.craigslist.org/boa/325479229.html he says the 305ci in there is too big, and will eat gas. (he also thinks that the I/O motor setup adds undue maintence and problems) that's why he likes those dinky little outbards. i agree with him that they're a pretty large motor, but the leap from fishing boat to bowrider adds considerable heft to the weight of the boat so the basic things a 1. please tell my father that a little fishing boat won't cut it for all-around pleasure boating. (i constantly try to batter it into his head that you can fish a bowrider, but you can't ride a fishing boat) 2. please tell him that they don't make bowriders with outboard motors so he's stuck with an I/O. 3. Please inform both of us about the different types of motors available for these things... so far i've found the 3.0L chrylser based mercruiser in newer ones, and the 5.0L Chevy 305 in some of the older ones. i know that those old boats are probably made mostly out of steel, and that they weigh a LOT compared to newer models. add to that the added weight of the outdrive setup, and barring any sort of huge weight difference(as the boats get newer), my guess is gonna be that the 3.0L is gonna come up short on power. but i guess the most important question that needs answering is... what kinda power does it actually take to watertube? to be able to hold its own against bigger boats? can the square stroke and good low-end torque of a 305 allow you to be conservative on gas for fishing? i think of it as a lot of trolling, anchoring and killing the motor, and relatively minimal full throttle time, making the difference in gas for a 5.0 Vs. a 3.0 pretty negligible.. i don't want to buy an outrageously oversized motor either, but i like to say it's better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it... now for the "how to buy it" part... i've read a lot about spotting problems with the hull, and the motor's not a real issue, i can easily tell the good from the bad there..., but the outdrive and steering mechanisms i haven't found good information on.... i already run like hell away from the ones with lots of salt water corrosion, but how about basic indicators on the condition of the outdrive? excess in/out play on the prop? turning the prop? maybe that will allow me to hear worn bearings or gear teeth? things like that would be awesome... i'm writing responses as I read them. Mike: thank you for your response... my father is just as willing to compromise as I am, but so far noone's told either of us what I wanted to hear, which is that you can't tow toys with an outboard. once he hears about this, he'll compromise and we'll argue over which kind of bowrider we should get instead of which kind of boat we should get. your information was much more helpful, because i think you understood best Everyone else: first thing's first, thank you for your responses... i had the idea in the back of my mind to take the boating courses, but this USPS course i don't know about... is that gonna end with me (and my father) getting our boating licenses? I was out on long Island sound with my buddy's 22' cobalt and he spent a good deal of time teaching me all about boating, rules of the water, what things mean, ect... but priority #1 is walking out with a boating license... if those courses do both (the ettiquite of the waves, the types of boats, advantages and disadvantages of stern drive Vs. Outboard, ect, along with leaving with a boating license, sign me up!) and no, i don't think we're that ideologically that far away that he won't accept anything less than a flat bottomed aluminum boat.... but i guess what i didn't get across in my first post is that he thinks something less than a bowrider (ie. quazi-fishing/pleasure boats) will serve our purposes. mike nailed what i needed to hear, and that's that you can't tow toys with an outboard. armed with that information, he'll give up and accept fishing off of a bowrider... let's not kid ourselves, neither my father or I fish enough or that enthusiaticially enough to warrant a flat bottomed aluminum boat. we won't need a livewell, we never catch anything! i joke but there is some truth behind it as to how recreationally we fish. i mean now that he knows we're stuck with an i/o (and a bowrider by default) it comes down to motor size. mike hinted at there not being much of a difference b/w an 80HP outboard and a 140HP i/o in terms of fuel consumption..... now that we're on the bowrider train, it comes down to a 3.0L chrysler versus the 5.0L chevy..... is it fair to say for my father's purposes that the difference in gas used will be negligable? sort of negligible? i think that's why he wanted an outboard motor-based boat in the 1st place, lower maintence plus lower fuel costs... not whether it gave him any advantage out on the lakes fishing.... if the answer is yes, then it's a 3.0L all the way. if no, then i guess it's up to me how bad I want to dig myself a hole... and last question, how about the performance differences b/w the 3.0L and the 5.0L? i could imagine it as a issue of power/weight ratio.... i would imagine these boats i'm looking at to be heavy! is the 140HP 3.0L gonna come up short because there's just a LOT of weight to move around... someone commented before that 145hp in a fishing boat would be FAST... clearly because of the power/weight ratio.... and in your guys opinion, is the power difference worth the 2 litres of displacement? in weight of the motor i doubt it would make a huge impact, but gas consumption it would...how do they stack up in terms of power? |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)
that's what I meant, for his purposes.... does anyone actually know
why inboards use less gas than outboards? also, what about 140HP 3.0L? that's what i've been seeing lately.... sure the 190HP versions work fine, that's only 40HP off of the ratings on the 305's... but the one's im seeing aren't rated for 190, more like 140... also anybody have an answer on the whole USPS question? can you take on of their courses and walk out with a boating license? On Wed, 9 May 2007 16:08:22 -0700, "Mike" wrote: mike hinted at there not being much of a difference b/w an 80HP outboard and a 140HP i/o in terms of fuel consumption..... Let's not take me too far out of context. :) I meant for your father's purposes... motoring out to a fishing hole, setting the hook, and fishing. For *your* purposes... cruising, pulling toys, etc, yeah, there'll be a difference. .now that we're on the bowrider train, it comes down to a 3.0L chrysler versus the 5.0L chevy..... I had an 18' Reinell bowrider powered with a 3.0L 190hp Merc. It was fast, and had plenty of power to pull up a skiier or boarder. A small boat doesn't need a huge powerplant. If you're looking at 22-23' boats, then the 5L is the best way to go. It's always best to have a little power to spare, rather than not enough. I would say as a rule of thumb, that anything less than 20' is fine with a 3L, anything over 20' go with 5L. Tell your dad that we fish off of our 23' bowrider all the time, and have never had an issue. BTW, we catch fish like you do. g --Mike "Chris Larocque" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 09 May 2007 00:57:02 -0400, Chris Larocque wrote: after seeing one local for sale that turned out to have a messed up hull, my father and I decided to buy a boat. we haven't come up to an agreement on what kind, because honestly we don't know enough. we're going half on the purchase price so it's all about compomise here. (we're looking at 17-21' and from the mid80's to early 90's) My intention is tubing and general pleasure craft-type activities. a buddy of mine has a 22 or 23' Cobalt bowrider and having the 2 boats riding around the lake tubing and cruising is what i'm after. I would also like to fish with this boat. so for me, a 17-20' bowrider with a Inboard/Outboard is a compromise. My father on the other hand wants to fish with it. he says that he wants to cruise with it too, but we can't seem to agree, as he shows me ads for these boats I call fishing boats. they're mostly outboards (in the 80ish HP range) and don't appear to be worth anything as pleasure boats. they look something like this http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1994-...QQcmdZViewItem they look to him like they would make pleasure boats, but to me they look like dhingys. when i explain to him that the dinky outboard motors won't cut it as pleasure boats and boats like that lack a proper place to hook a line for tubing and also lack a teak-wood deck for getting in and out the boat easily, i get an answer such as: 1. you can hook a skiier up to the hooks for tying the boat up, or even more funny, you can drill into the fiberglass on the back and mount one. i don't even think i need to explain what's wrong with that. 2. as for no deck, you can also mount one. one that hangs over the stern and mounts inside. and not really a deck either, more or less a ladder. since we're going half in on it, I honestly think that the design of the type of boat my father is looking for isn't what both of us are looking for. i don't see it being a compromise. what I keep showing my father is something along this line... http://newhaven.craigslist.org/boa/325479229.html he says the 305ci in there is too big, and will eat gas. (he also thinks that the I/O motor setup adds undue maintence and problems) that's why he likes those dinky little outbards. i agree with him that they're a pretty large motor, but the leap from fishing boat to bowrider adds considerable heft to the weight of the boat so the basic things a 1. please tell my father that a little fishing boat won't cut it for all-around pleasure boating. (i constantly try to batter it into his head that you can fish a bowrider, but you can't ride a fishing boat) 2. please tell him that they don't make bowriders with outboard motors so he's stuck with an I/O. 3. Please inform both of us about the different types of motors available for these things... so far i've found the 3.0L chrylser based mercruiser in newer ones, and the 5.0L Chevy 305 in some of the older ones. i know that those old boats are probably made mostly out of steel, and that they weigh a LOT compared to newer models. add to that the added weight of the outdrive setup, and barring any sort of huge weight difference(as the boats get newer), my guess is gonna be that the 3.0L is gonna come up short on power. but i guess the most important question that needs answering is... what kinda power does it actually take to watertube? to be able to hold its own against bigger boats? can the square stroke and good low-end torque of a 305 allow you to be conservative on gas for fishing? i think of it as a lot of trolling, anchoring and killing the motor, and relatively minimal full throttle time, making the difference in gas for a 5.0 Vs. a 3.0 pretty negligible.. i don't want to buy an outrageously oversized motor either, but i like to say it's better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it... now for the "how to buy it" part... i've read a lot about spotting problems with the hull, and the motor's not a real issue, i can easily tell the good from the bad there..., but the outdrive and steering mechanisms i haven't found good information on.... i already run like hell away from the ones with lots of salt water corrosion, but how about basic indicators on the condition of the outdrive? excess in/out play on the prop? turning the prop? maybe that will allow me to hear worn bearings or gear teeth? things like that would be awesome... i'm writing responses as I read them. Mike: thank you for your response... my father is just as willing to compromise as I am, but so far noone's told either of us what I wanted to hear, which is that you can't tow toys with an outboard. once he hears about this, he'll compromise and we'll argue over which kind of bowrider we should get instead of which kind of boat we should get. your information was much more helpful, because i think you understood best Everyone else: first thing's first, thank you for your responses... i had the idea in the back of my mind to take the boating courses, but this USPS course i don't know about... is that gonna end with me (and my father) getting our boating licenses? I was out on long Island sound with my buddy's 22' cobalt and he spent a good deal of time teaching me all about boating, rules of the water, what things mean, ect... but priority #1 is walking out with a boating license... if those courses do both (the ettiquite of the waves, the types of boats, advantages and disadvantages of stern drive Vs. Outboard, ect, along with leaving with a boating license, sign me up!) and no, i don't think we're that ideologically that far away that he won't accept anything less than a flat bottomed aluminum boat.... but i guess what i didn't get across in my first post is that he thinks something less than a bowrider (ie. quazi-fishing/pleasure boats) will serve our purposes. mike nailed what i needed to hear, and that's that you can't tow toys with an outboard. armed with that information, he'll give up and accept fishing off of a bowrider... let's not kid ourselves, neither my father or I fish enough or that enthusiaticially enough to warrant a flat bottomed aluminum boat. we won't need a livewell, we never catch anything! i joke but there is some truth behind it as to how recreationally we fish. i mean now that he knows we're stuck with an i/o (and a bowrider by default) it comes down to motor size. mike hinted at there not being much of a difference b/w an 80HP outboard and a 140HP i/o in terms of fuel consumption..... now that we're on the bowrider train, it comes down to a 3.0L chrysler versus the 5.0L chevy..... is it fair to say for my father's purposes that the difference in gas used will be negligable? sort of negligible? i think that's why he wanted an outboard motor-based boat in the 1st place, lower maintence plus lower fuel costs... not whether it gave him any advantage out on the lakes fishing.... if the answer is yes, then it's a 3.0L all the way. if no, then i guess it's up to me how bad I want to dig myself a hole... and last question, how about the performance differences b/w the 3.0L and the 5.0L? i could imagine it as a issue of power/weight ratio.... i would imagine these boats i'm looking at to be heavy! is the 140HP 3.0L gonna come up short because there's just a LOT of weight to move around... someone commented before that 145hp in a fishing boat would be FAST... clearly because of the power/weight ratio.... and in your guys opinion, is the power difference worth the 2 litres of displacement? in weight of the motor i doubt it would make a huge impact, but gas consumption it would...how do they stack up in terms of power? |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)
" also anybody have an answer on the whole USPS question? can you take on of their courses and walk out with a boating license? In the canadian Power & Sail Squadron, the first course is 'The Boating Course'. After completing this course you challange the exam (way to easy) and then if you pass, receive your Pleasure Craft Operators Card. You can write the exam without the course... but why? http://www.cps-ecp.ca/?WCE=C=11|K=224445|RefreshT=224445|RefreshS=Contai ner|RefreshD=2243211|A=Body |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)
On Thu, 10 May 2007 13:31:05 -0400, Chris Larocque
wrote: that's what I meant, for his purposes.... does anyone actually know why inboards use less gas than outboards? That was mostly true for 2 cycle outboards which have a less efficient combustion process resulting in a fair amount of unburned fuel in the exhaust. |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)
On Wed, 09 May 2007 18:13:30 -0400, Chris Larocque
wrote: i'm writing responses as I read them. Mike: thank you for your response... my father is just as willing to compromise as I am, but so far noone's told either of us what I wanted to hear, which is that you can't tow toys with an outboard. once he hears about this, he'll compromise and we'll argue over which kind of bowrider we should get instead of which kind of boat we should get. your information was much more helpful, because i think you understood best Bull****. Outboards pull toys just fine. Everyone else: first thing's first, thank you for your responses... i had the idea in the back of my mind to take the boating courses, but this USPS course i don't know about... is that gonna end with me (and my father) getting our boating licenses? No, it's going to end with you and your father knowing a lot more about boating than what some 'buddy' told you. I was out on long Island sound with my buddy's 22' cobalt and he spent a good deal of time teaching me all about boating, rules of the water, what things mean, ect... but priority #1 is walking out with a boating license... if those courses do both (the ettiquite of the waves, the types of boats, advantages and disadvantages of stern drive Vs. Outboard, ect, along with leaving with a boating license, sign me up!) and no, i don't think we're that ideologically that far away that he won't accept anything less than a flat bottomed aluminum boat.... but i guess what i didn't get across in my first post is that he thinks something less than a bowrider (ie. quazi-fishing/pleasure boats) will serve our purposes. mike nailed what i needed to hear, and that's that you can't tow toys with an outboard. Mike was wrong, or you misunderstood him. armed with that information, he'll give up and accept fishing off of a bowrider... let's not kid ourselves, neither my father or I fish enough or that enthusiaticially enough to warrant a flat bottomed aluminum boat. we won't need a livewell, we never catch anything! i joke but there is some truth behind it as to how recreationally we fish. i mean now that he knows we're stuck with an i/o (and a bowrider by default) it comes down to motor size. mike hinted at there not being much of a difference b/w an 80HP outboard and a 140HP i/o in terms of fuel consumption..... now that we're on the bowrider train, it comes down to a 3.0L chrysler versus the 5.0L chevy..... is it fair to say for my father's purposes that the difference in gas used will be negligable? sort of negligible? i think that's why he wanted an outboard motor-based boat in the 1st place, lower maintence plus lower fuel costs... not whether it gave him any advantage out on the lakes fishing.... if the answer is yes, then it's a 3.0L all the way. if no, then i guess it's up to me how bad I want to dig myself a hole... and last question, how about the performance differences b/w the 3.0L and the 5.0L? i could imagine it as a issue of power/weight ratio.... i would imagine these boats i'm looking at to be heavy! is the 140HP 3.0L gonna come up short because there's just a LOT of weight to move around... someone commented before that 145hp in a fishing boat would be FAST... clearly because of the power/weight ratio.... and in your guys opinion, is the power difference worth the 2 litres of displacement? in weight of the motor i doubt it would make a huge impact, but gas consumption it would...how do they stack up in terms of power? |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)
On Thu, 10 May 2007 13:31:05 -0400, Chris Larocque
wrote: that's what I meant, for his purposes.... does anyone actually know why inboards use less gas than outboards? also, what about 140HP 3.0L? that's what i've been seeing lately.... sure the 190HP versions work fine, that's only 40HP off of the ratings on the 305's... but the one's im seeing aren't rated for 190, more like 140... also anybody have an answer on the whole USPS question? can you take on of their courses and walk out with a boating license? I have a 19' cuddy cabin with the 3.0 135 hp (I believe that is the correct hp rating) with a Mercruiser Alpha One outdrive. It does an acceptable job and I can pull my grandkids on tubes and take people sking. However, this boat is definitely on the heavy side for that engine. A 18' bowrider, being much lighter, should do quite well with that engine. A 2 cycle outboard will use more gas due to inefficiencies. An undersized engine will use more gas than an appropriate sized engine since it will be operated at higher RPMs and higher loads. An I/O is in many ways a car engine. BTW I still do not get your assertion that you can't pull toys and skiers behind an outboard. A decent sized outboard on a bowrider or other runabout will definitely pull tubes and skiers as well as an I/O. I would not be the least concerned about an outboard on an 18' bowrider or other runabout - there are definite advantages to the outboard as well as the I/O. I myself wouldn't have a 2 cycle outboard, however, due to gas usage, oil usage and dirtier operation. I like my I/O. Winterizing the outboard is sure easier though. Dave Hall |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)
On Thu, 10 May 2007 14:50:44 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote: On Thu, 10 May 2007 13:31:05 -0400, Chris Larocque wrote: that's what I meant, for his purposes.... does anyone actually know why inboards use less gas than outboards? That was mostly true for 2 cycle outboards which have a less efficient combustion process resulting in a fair amount of unburned fuel in the exhaust. Ahem... Ever heard of ETEC? ~~ mutter ~~ :) |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus followup Q's)
Chris Larocque wrote:
On Wed, 09 May 2007 00:57:02 -0400, Chris Larocque wrote: i'm writing responses as I read them. Mike: thank you for your response... my father is just as willing to compromise as I am, but so far noone's told either of us what I wanted to hear, which is that you can't tow toys with an outboard. No one has told you that because if they did they would be wrong. Of course you can pull toys with an outboard. You may as well be waiting for someone to tell you the world is flat. i had the idea in the back of my mind to take the boating courses, but this USPS course i don't know about... is that gonna end with me (and my father) getting our boating licenses? I was out on long Island sound with my buddy's 22' cobalt and he spent a good deal of time teaching me all about boating, rules of the water, what things mean, ect... but priority #1 is walking out with a boating license... if those courses do both (the ettiquite of the waves, the types of boats, advantages and disadvantages of stern drive Vs. Outboard, ect, along with leaving with a boating license, sign me up!) Since you mention Long Island Sound I assume you are either in New York State (Long Island or Westchester) or in Connecticut. Neither state issues or requires a "boating license". However, in order to operate a power boat, Connecticut now requires proof that one has passed a NASBLA* approved boating course. New York State require such proof for those under 18 (and for anyone to operate a PWC), and there is a bill in front of the legislature to require proof of education for everyone operating a power boat. The Power Squadron Boating Course is not only NASBLA approved - it is the model upon which other courses are based, and it is the most comprehensive. And yes, you will be issued a certificate upon passing the course. All that being said, forget about NASBLA* and licenses and certificates. To go boating without basic formal education is just plain idiotic, whether you have a "buddy" to show you the ropes or not. One of the reasons boating is getting more scary and stressful is that too many boaters think they know it all when they really don't. I hope you are not one of them. Did your "buddy" teach you how to tie a bowline? How to read a chart? How to plot a course or determine your position on one? How about what the laws are regarding PFD's? VDS's? Capacity and overloading? Did he teach you about close quarter maneuvering? The "General Rule of Responsibility"? Order of Priority? How about on board weather forecasting? Using DSC? Proper ventilation for enclosed fuel tanks and engine compartments? Did he show you all of the procedures for fueling that would save you from a $25,000 fine or minimize the chance of you blowing yourself and everyone else on the dock to bits? Did he teach you about Variation vs Deviation? Mayday vs Pan-Pan vs Securite? Mo-A? etc etc etc etc etc? Please don't be foolish about this. Take the damn course!! mike nailed what i needed to hear, and that's that you can't tow toys with an outboard. As someone else posted, either Mike was wrong or you misunderstood him. You can absolutely, positively pull toys with an outboard. Could it be you just think an i/o is cooler looking? Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" *NASBLA = National Association of Boating Law Administrators |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)
On Thu, 10 May 2007 16:43:53 -0400, Dave Hall wrote:
snipped BTW I still do not get your assertion that you can't pull toys and skiers behind an outboard. A decent sized outboard on a bowrider or other runabout will definitely pull tubes and skiers as well as an I/O. I would not be the least concerned about an outboard on an 18' bowrider or other runabout - there are definite advantages to the outboard as well as the I/O. I myself wouldn't have a 2 cycle outboard, however, due to gas usage, oil usage and dirtier operation. I like my I/O. Winterizing the outboard is sure easier though. Dave Hall I think he's making that assertion and then will show his dad his assertion as though it is gospel. |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)
"Larry Weiss" wrote in message ... All that being said, forget about NASBLA* and licenses and certificates. To go boating without basic formal education is just plain idiotic, whether you have a "buddy" to show you the ropes or not. One of the reasons boating is getting more scary and stressful is that too many boaters think they know it all when they really don't. I hope you are not one of them. Did your "buddy" teach you how to tie a bowline? How to read a chart? How to plot a course or determine your position on one? How about what the laws are regarding PFD's? VDS's? Capacity and overloading? Did he teach you about close quarter maneuvering? The "General Rule of Responsibility"? Order of Priority? How about on board weather forecasting? Using DSC? Proper ventilation for enclosed fuel tanks and engine compartments? Did he show you all of the procedures for fueling that would save you from a $25,000 fine or minimize the chance of you blowing yourself and everyone else on the dock to bits? Did he teach you about Variation vs Deviation? Mayday vs Pan-Pan vs Securite? Mo-A? etc etc etc etc etc? Please don't be foolish about this. Take the damn course!! How the heck did the last 4 or 5 generations manage to go boating and still manage to stick around long enough to produce us? Eisboch |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)
On Thu, 10 May 2007 17:59:20 -0400, Larry Weiss
wrote: Neither state ssues or requires a "boating license". Wrong. You are required in CT to obtain a Safe Boating Certificate (or license - semantics) issued by the State on completion of a state authorized 8/10 hour safe boating course. |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus followup Q's)
RCE wrote:
"Larry Weiss" wrote in message ... All that being said, forget about NASBLA* and licenses and certificates. To go boating without basic formal education is just plain idiotic, whether you have a "buddy" to show you the ropes or not. One of the reasons boating is getting more scary and stressful is that too many boaters think they know it all when they really don't. I hope you are not one of them. Did your "buddy" teach you how to tie a bowline? How to read a chart? How to plot a course or determine your position on one? How about what the laws are regarding PFD's? VDS's? Capacity and overloading? Did he teach you about close quarter maneuvering? The "General Rule of Responsibility"? Order of Priority? How about on board weather forecasting? Using DSC? Proper ventilation for enclosed fuel tanks and engine compartments? Did he show you all of the procedures for fueling that would save you from a $25,000 fine or minimize the chance of you blowing yourself and everyone else on the dock to bits? Did he teach you about Variation vs Deviation? Mayday vs Pan-Pan vs Securite? Mo-A? etc etc etc etc etc? Please don't be foolish about this. Take the damn course!! How the heck did the last 4 or 5 generations manage to go boating and still manage to stick around long enough to produce us? Eisboch Seriously? Many didn't. But knowing the generation older than me that is still alive, I would say they and their predecessors had a whole lot more respect for good seamanship than many people today. Also, keep in mind the Power Squadron has been teaching their boating courses for what - 80 or 90 years or so? "Chapman's Piloting" is up to what - its 64th edition? It not like safe boating courses just became available yesterday. Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus followup Q's)
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Thu, 10 May 2007 17:59:20 -0400, Larry Weiss wrote: Neither state ssues or requires a "boating license". Wrong. You are required in CT to obtain a Safe Boating Certificate (or license - semantics) issued by the State on completion of a state authorized 8/10 hour safe boating course. You are right - its semantics. Connecticut calls it a "Certificate", not a "License", but it is issued by the government upon proof of passing a recognized boating course, so I suppose it could be called a license. Details are he http://www.ct.gov/dep/cwp/view.asp?a...emen tProgram Larry Weiss "...Ever After!" |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)
It seems like I sruck a nerve with Jim H. Apparently he didn't comprehend my
statement in which I said that towing behind an outboard required either a tower (as in wakeboard tower), or a ski pole mounted in the boat. Sure an outbord can have plenty of power to pull a skiier or boarder, but that big engine hanging off the transom gets in the way. Most competition ski boats use a pole mounted just behind the engine (straight drive not vee drive), and an outboard can do the same thing. However, any seating behind the pole is useless while pulling a skiier. On the other hand, an inboard, or I/O can pull with a simple rope hook mounted on the transom, and doesn't interefere with seating. For most casual skiiers or boarders, this arrangement is just fine. Maybe Jim thinks you can mount a tow hook on the outboard itself? That's about the only way to do it so the motor doesn't interfere with the line. So, back to what I said, and inboard or I/O is much better for pulling people or toys. --Mike "Chris Larocque" wrote in message ... that's what I meant, for his purposes.... does anyone actually know why inboards use less gas than outboards? also, what about 140HP 3.0L? that's what i've been seeing lately.... sure the 190HP versions work fine, that's only 40HP off of the ratings on the 305's... but the one's im seeing aren't rated for 190, more like 140... also anybody have an answer on the whole USPS question? can you take on of their courses and walk out with a boating license? On Wed, 9 May 2007 16:08:22 -0700, "Mike" wrote: mike hinted at there not being much of a difference b/w an 80HP outboard and a 140HP i/o in terms of fuel consumption..... Let's not take me too far out of context. :) I meant for your father's purposes... motoring out to a fishing hole, setting the hook, and fishing. For *your* purposes... cruising, pulling toys, etc, yeah, there'll be a difference. .now that we're on the bowrider train, it comes down to a 3.0L chrysler versus the 5.0L chevy..... I had an 18' Reinell bowrider powered with a 3.0L 190hp Merc. It was fast, and had plenty of power to pull up a skiier or boarder. A small boat doesn't need a huge powerplant. If you're looking at 22-23' boats, then the 5L is the best way to go. It's always best to have a little power to spare, rather than not enough. I would say as a rule of thumb, that anything less than 20' is fine with a 3L, anything over 20' go with 5L. Tell your dad that we fish off of our 23' bowrider all the time, and have never had an issue. BTW, we catch fish like you do. g --Mike "Chris Larocque" wrote in message . .. On Wed, 09 May 2007 00:57:02 -0400, Chris Larocque wrote: after seeing one local for sale that turned out to have a messed up hull, my father and I decided to buy a boat. we haven't come up to an agreement on what kind, because honestly we don't know enough. we're going half on the purchase price so it's all about compomise here. (we're looking at 17-21' and from the mid80's to early 90's) My intention is tubing and general pleasure craft-type activities. a buddy of mine has a 22 or 23' Cobalt bowrider and having the 2 boats riding around the lake tubing and cruising is what i'm after. I would also like to fish with this boat. so for me, a 17-20' bowrider with a Inboard/Outboard is a compromise. My father on the other hand wants to fish with it. he says that he wants to cruise with it too, but we can't seem to agree, as he shows me ads for these boats I call fishing boats. they're mostly outboards (in the 80ish HP range) and don't appear to be worth anything as pleasure boats. they look something like this http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1994-...QQcmdZViewItem they look to him like they would make pleasure boats, but to me they look like dhingys. when i explain to him that the dinky outboard motors won't cut it as pleasure boats and boats like that lack a proper place to hook a line for tubing and also lack a teak-wood deck for getting in and out the boat easily, i get an answer such as: 1. you can hook a skiier up to the hooks for tying the boat up, or even more funny, you can drill into the fiberglass on the back and mount one. i don't even think i need to explain what's wrong with that. 2. as for no deck, you can also mount one. one that hangs over the stern and mounts inside. and not really a deck either, more or less a ladder. since we're going half in on it, I honestly think that the design of the type of boat my father is looking for isn't what both of us are looking for. i don't see it being a compromise. what I keep showing my father is something along this line... http://newhaven.craigslist.org/boa/325479229.html he says the 305ci in there is too big, and will eat gas. (he also thinks that the I/O motor setup adds undue maintence and problems) that's why he likes those dinky little outbards. i agree with him that they're a pretty large motor, but the leap from fishing boat to bowrider adds considerable heft to the weight of the boat so the basic things a 1. please tell my father that a little fishing boat won't cut it for all-around pleasure boating. (i constantly try to batter it into his head that you can fish a bowrider, but you can't ride a fishing boat) 2. please tell him that they don't make bowriders with outboard motors so he's stuck with an I/O. 3. Please inform both of us about the different types of motors available for these things... so far i've found the 3.0L chrylser based mercruiser in newer ones, and the 5.0L Chevy 305 in some of the older ones. i know that those old boats are probably made mostly out of steel, and that they weigh a LOT compared to newer models. add to that the added weight of the outdrive setup, and barring any sort of huge weight difference(as the boats get newer), my guess is gonna be that the 3.0L is gonna come up short on power. but i guess the most important question that needs answering is... what kinda power does it actually take to watertube? to be able to hold its own against bigger boats? can the square stroke and good low-end torque of a 305 allow you to be conservative on gas for fishing? i think of it as a lot of trolling, anchoring and killing the motor, and relatively minimal full throttle time, making the difference in gas for a 5.0 Vs. a 3.0 pretty negligible.. i don't want to buy an outrageously oversized motor either, but i like to say it's better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it... now for the "how to buy it" part... i've read a lot about spotting problems with the hull, and the motor's not a real issue, i can easily tell the good from the bad there..., but the outdrive and steering mechanisms i haven't found good information on.... i already run like hell away from the ones with lots of salt water corrosion, but how about basic indicators on the condition of the outdrive? excess in/out play on the prop? turning the prop? maybe that will allow me to hear worn bearings or gear teeth? things like that would be awesome... i'm writing responses as I read them. Mike: thank you for your response... my father is just as willing to compromise as I am, but so far noone's told either of us what I wanted to hear, which is that you can't tow toys with an outboard. once he hears about this, he'll compromise and we'll argue over which kind of bowrider we should get instead of which kind of boat we should get. your information was much more helpful, because i think you understood best Everyone else: first thing's first, thank you for your responses... i had the idea in the back of my mind to take the boating courses, but this USPS course i don't know about... is that gonna end with me (and my father) getting our boating licenses? I was out on long Island sound with my buddy's 22' cobalt and he spent a good deal of time teaching me all about boating, rules of the water, what things mean, ect... but priority #1 is walking out with a boating license... if those courses do both (the ettiquite of the waves, the types of boats, advantages and disadvantages of stern drive Vs. Outboard, ect, along with leaving with a boating license, sign me up!) and no, i don't think we're that ideologically that far away that he won't accept anything less than a flat bottomed aluminum boat.... but i guess what i didn't get across in my first post is that he thinks something less than a bowrider (ie. quazi-fishing/pleasure boats) will serve our purposes. mike nailed what i needed to hear, and that's that you can't tow toys with an outboard. armed with that information, he'll give up and accept fishing off of a bowrider... let's not kid ourselves, neither my father or I fish enough or that enthusiaticially enough to warrant a flat bottomed aluminum boat. we won't need a livewell, we never catch anything! i joke but there is some truth behind it as to how recreationally we fish. i mean now that he knows we're stuck with an i/o (and a bowrider by default) it comes down to motor size. mike hinted at there not being much of a difference b/w an 80HP outboard and a 140HP i/o in terms of fuel consumption..... now that we're on the bowrider train, it comes down to a 3.0L chrysler versus the 5.0L chevy..... is it fair to say for my father's purposes that the difference in gas used will be negligable? sort of negligible? i think that's why he wanted an outboard motor-based boat in the 1st place, lower maintence plus lower fuel costs... not whether it gave him any advantage out on the lakes fishing.... if the answer is yes, then it's a 3.0L all the way. if no, then i guess it's up to me how bad I want to dig myself a hole... and last question, how about the performance differences b/w the 3.0L and the 5.0L? i could imagine it as a issue of power/weight ratio.... i would imagine these boats i'm looking at to be heavy! is the 140HP 3.0L gonna come up short because there's just a LOT of weight to move around... someone commented before that 145hp in a fishing boat would be FAST... clearly because of the power/weight ratio.... and in your guys opinion, is the power difference worth the 2 litres of displacement? in weight of the motor i doubt it would make a huge impact, but gas consumption it would...how do they stack up in terms of power? |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)
"Mike" wrote in message ... It seems like I sruck a nerve with Jim H. Apparently he didn't comprehend my statement in which I said that towing behind an outboard required either a tower (as in wakeboard tower), or a ski pole mounted in the boat. Sure an outbord can have plenty of power to pull a skiier or boarder, but that big engine hanging off the transom gets in the way. Most competition ski boats use a pole mounted just behind the engine (straight drive not vee drive), and an outboard can do the same thing. However, any seating behind the pole is useless while pulling a skiier. On the other hand, an inboard, or I/O can pull with a simple rope hook mounted on the transom, and doesn't interefere with seating. For most casual skiiers or boarders, this arrangement is just fine. Maybe Jim thinks you can mount a tow hook on the outboard itself? That's about the only way to do it so the motor doesn't interfere with the line. So, back to what I said, and inboard or I/O is much better for pulling people or toys. --Mike In my youth I skied and tubed with outboard powered boats all the time and none, except one had a tower or pole. Our ski/fishing/cruising boats were equipped with a line attached to two "U" brackets mounted on each side of the transom with backing plates. (Many boats come with them.) The tow line attached to a heavy duty pulley that ran on the transom line, allowing the tow line's point of attachment to run back and forth across the transom. It didn't interfere with the engine at all. RCE |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)
On Fri, 11 May 2007 05:34:09 -0400, "RCE" wrote:
"Mike" wrote in message t... It seems like I sruck a nerve with Jim H. Apparently he didn't comprehend my statement in which I said that towing behind an outboard required either a tower (as in wakeboard tower), or a ski pole mounted in the boat. Sure an outbord can have plenty of power to pull a skiier or boarder, but that big engine hanging off the transom gets in the way. Most competition ski boats use a pole mounted just behind the engine (straight drive not vee drive), and an outboard can do the same thing. However, any seating behind the pole is useless while pulling a skiier. On the other hand, an inboard, or I/O can pull with a simple rope hook mounted on the transom, and doesn't interefere with seating. For most casual skiiers or boarders, this arrangement is just fine. Maybe Jim thinks you can mount a tow hook on the outboard itself? That's about the only way to do it so the motor doesn't interfere with the line. So, back to what I said, and inboard or I/O is much better for pulling people or toys. In my youth I skied and tubed with outboard powered boats all the time and none, except one had a tower or pole. Our ski/fishing/cruising boats were equipped with a line attached to two "U" brackets mounted on each side of the transom with backing plates. (Many boats come with them.) The tow line attached to a heavy duty pulley that ran on the transom line, allowing the tow line's point of attachment to run back and forth across the transom. It didn't interfere with the engine at all. You probably won't believe this, but when I was a kid and a member of the Sea Scouts I weighed all of 140 pounds dripping wet. One Saturday morning a few of us were at the local Scout hangout (Beachcombers out by Fort Sewall), somebody got the idea that we should try skiing behind our restored 12 man whale boat. We rounded up the rest of the whale boat crew and by afternoon had set up in the harbor - 12 rowers, the Scout Master as coxswain (which was normally my job) and me as the skier being the lightest guy on the crew - no wind, flat calm. Two false starts - third times the charm. Skied for almost the length of Marblehead harbor. :) |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... You probably won't believe this, but when I was a kid and a member of the Sea Scouts I weighed all of 140 pounds dripping wet. One Saturday morning a few of us were at the local Scout hangout (Beachcombers out by Fort Sewall), somebody got the idea that we should try skiing behind our restored 12 man whale boat. We rounded up the rest of the whale boat crew and by afternoon had set up in the harbor - 12 rowers, the Scout Master as coxswain (which was normally my job) and me as the skier being the lightest guy on the crew - no wind, flat calm. Two false starts - third times the charm. Skied for almost the length of Marblehead harbor. :) We used to ski behind my 12' Sears aluminum boat with a 5-1/2 hp Johnson "Sea Horse" engine. Wasn't easy, but it can be done. Those were fun days. Nobody worried about even registering the boat. Eisboch |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)
"RCE" wrote in message ... "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... You probably won't believe this, but when I was a kid and a member of the Sea Scouts I weighed all of 140 pounds dripping wet. One Saturday morning a few of us were at the local Scout hangout (Beachcombers out by Fort Sewall), somebody got the idea that we should try skiing behind our restored 12 man whale boat. We rounded up the rest of the whale boat crew and by afternoon had set up in the harbor - 12 rowers, the Scout Master as coxswain (which was normally my job) and me as the skier being the lightest guy on the crew - no wind, flat calm. Two false starts - third times the charm. Skied for almost the length of Marblehead harbor. :) We used to ski behind my 12' Sears aluminum boat with a 5-1/2 hp Johnson "Sea Horse" engine. Wasn't easy, but it can be done. Those were fun days. Nobody worried about even registering the boat. Eisboch I had an old 5 1/2 hp Sea Horse and sold it to a fellow boater a few years back as he collects old outboards and displays them in his finished basement. BTW: Mythbusters did a segment on trying to water ski behind a row boat. I cannot recall if the guy ever got up on his skis. |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)
On Fri, 11 May 2007 07:56:55 -0400, "JimH"
wrote: "RCE" wrote in message ... "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... You probably won't believe this, but when I was a kid and a member of the Sea Scouts I weighed all of 140 pounds dripping wet. One Saturday morning a few of us were at the local Scout hangout (Beachcombers out by Fort Sewall), somebody got the idea that we should try skiing behind our restored 12 man whale boat. We rounded up the rest of the whale boat crew and by afternoon had set up in the harbor - 12 rowers, the Scout Master as coxswain (which was normally my job) and me as the skier being the lightest guy on the crew - no wind, flat calm. Two false starts - third times the charm. Skied for almost the length of Marblehead harbor. :) We used to ski behind my 12' Sears aluminum boat with a 5-1/2 hp Johnson "Sea Horse" engine. Wasn't easy, but it can be done. Those were fun days. Nobody worried about even registering the boat. Eisboch I had an old 5 1/2 hp Sea Horse and sold it to a fellow boater a few years back as he collects old outboards and displays them in his finished basement. BTW: Mythbusters did a segment on trying to water ski behind a row boat. I cannot recall if the guy ever got up on his skis. Yep - he was pulled up by a rowing crew from Stanford I believe. Their speed was higher than ours was just because of the nature of the rowing boat - ours was massive and once it got rolling, it kept rolling. When Mythbusters did it, it was a constant jerking motion - when I did it it was smooth because of the weight of the boat overcame the rowing motion. That was the neat thing about that whale boat. Once it was moving, it was smooth as silk and required very little effort to keep it going at a fairly fast clip. We rowed it from Mablehead to Gloucester one morning - if I remember correctly, it took six hours from harbor mouth to harbor mouth with 16 aboard - rowers were on rotation. Needless to say, we sailed it back. :) |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)
On Fri, 11 May 2007 07:44:47 -0400, "RCE" wrote:
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message .. . You probably won't believe this, but when I was a kid and a member of the Sea Scouts I weighed all of 140 pounds dripping wet. One Saturday morning a few of us were at the local Scout hangout (Beachcombers out by Fort Sewall), somebody got the idea that we should try skiing behind our restored 12 man whale boat. We rounded up the rest of the whale boat crew and by afternoon had set up in the harbor - 12 rowers, the Scout Master as coxswain (which was normally my job) and me as the skier being the lightest guy on the crew - no wind, flat calm. Two false starts - third times the charm. Skied for almost the length of Marblehead harbor. :) We used to ski behind my 12' Sears aluminum boat with a 5-1/2 hp Johnson "Sea Horse" engine. Wasn't easy, but it can be done. Those were fun days. Nobody worried about even registering the boat. nostalgia Growing up in Marblehead where a lot of my rather eclectic group of friends were into everything and anything. Music, sports, drama, we all had part-time jobs around town, a lot of my friends were sons and daughters of lobster/fishermen - it was a great time to be a kid. All the parents knew each other - members of the Lions, Rotary, CG Aux, Odd Fellows, Masons, K of C - you name it and you couldn't get away with anything because everybody knew everybody else. :) The cops would look out for the kids and if things were getting out of hand, made sure they got back under control just by saying "Hey, I saw the Mother (or Father) the other night at...". The Harbor Master and Police boat always knew where we were. More than one occasion when we got up to something stupid, you'd see the Police or Harbor Master boats slowly move out of the harbor and just be present - it was enough to keep things calm and un stupid. I remember one time I took my 13 foot Whaler Sport out to Halfway Rock with three of my buddies to go "fishing" (read drink some beer) and "Chummy" Frost, Scout Master, met us halfway there with the Harbor Master, confiscated our beer and sent us on our way. Never a word to the parents and when we got back, the beer was sitting in the Master's office in the refrigerator. One each was the limit - the rest was passed along to the adults. Never happen in today's climate. :) /nostalgia |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)
On Thu, 10 May 2007 23:16:58 -0700, "Mike" wrote:
It seems like I sruck a nerve with Jim H. Apparently he didn't comprehend my statement in which I said that towing behind an outboard required either a tower (as in wakeboard tower), or a ski pole mounted in the boat. Sure an outbord can have plenty of power to pull a skiier or boarder, but that big engine hanging off the transom gets in the way. Most competition ski boats use a pole mounted just behind the engine (straight drive not vee drive), and an outboard can do the same thing. However, any seating behind the pole is useless while pulling a skiier. On the other hand, an inboard, or I/O can pull with a simple rope hook mounted on the transom, and doesn't interefere with seating. For most casual skiiers or boarders, this arrangement is just fine. Maybe Jim thinks you can mount a tow hook on the outboard itself? That's about the only way to do it so the motor doesn't interfere with the line. So, back to what I said, and inboard or I/O is much better for pulling people or toys. --Mike I have skied behind many outboards on many different styles of boats. The ski rope simply had a Y on the end and one side of the Y hooked to an eye on the left side of the transom and the other side of the Y hooked to the eye on the right side. It worked as well as any other configuration that I have ever used. Dave Hall "Chris Larocque" wrote in message .. . that's what I meant, for his purposes.... does anyone actually know why inboards use less gas than outboards? also, what about 140HP 3.0L? that's what i've been seeing lately.... sure the 190HP versions work fine, that's only 40HP off of the ratings on the 305's... but the one's im seeing aren't rated for 190, more like 140... also anybody have an answer on the whole USPS question? can you take on of their courses and walk out with a boating license? On Wed, 9 May 2007 16:08:22 -0700, "Mike" wrote: mike hinted at there not being much of a difference b/w an 80HP outboard and a 140HP i/o in terms of fuel consumption..... Let's not take me too far out of context. :) I meant for your father's purposes... motoring out to a fishing hole, setting the hook, and fishing. For *your* purposes... cruising, pulling toys, etc, yeah, there'll be a difference. .now that we're on the bowrider train, it comes down to a 3.0L chrysler versus the 5.0L chevy..... I had an 18' Reinell bowrider powered with a 3.0L 190hp Merc. It was fast, and had plenty of power to pull up a skiier or boarder. A small boat doesn't need a huge powerplant. If you're looking at 22-23' boats, then the 5L is the best way to go. It's always best to have a little power to spare, rather than not enough. I would say as a rule of thumb, that anything less than 20' is fine with a 3L, anything over 20' go with 5L. Tell your dad that we fish off of our 23' bowrider all the time, and have never had an issue. BTW, we catch fish like you do. g --Mike "Chris Larocque" wrote in message ... On Wed, 09 May 2007 00:57:02 -0400, Chris Larocque wrote: after seeing one local for sale that turned out to have a messed up hull, my father and I decided to buy a boat. we haven't come up to an agreement on what kind, because honestly we don't know enough. we're going half on the purchase price so it's all about compomise here. (we're looking at 17-21' and from the mid80's to early 90's) My intention is tubing and general pleasure craft-type activities. a buddy of mine has a 22 or 23' Cobalt bowrider and having the 2 boats riding around the lake tubing and cruising is what i'm after. I would also like to fish with this boat. so for me, a 17-20' bowrider with a Inboard/Outboard is a compromise. My father on the other hand wants to fish with it. he says that he wants to cruise with it too, but we can't seem to agree, as he shows me ads for these boats I call fishing boats. they're mostly outboards (in the 80ish HP range) and don't appear to be worth anything as pleasure boats. they look something like this http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1994-...QQcmdZViewItem they look to him like they would make pleasure boats, but to me they look like dhingys. when i explain to him that the dinky outboard motors won't cut it as pleasure boats and boats like that lack a proper place to hook a line for tubing and also lack a teak-wood deck for getting in and out the boat easily, i get an answer such as: 1. you can hook a skiier up to the hooks for tying the boat up, or even more funny, you can drill into the fiberglass on the back and mount one. i don't even think i need to explain what's wrong with that. 2. as for no deck, you can also mount one. one that hangs over the stern and mounts inside. and not really a deck either, more or less a ladder. since we're going half in on it, I honestly think that the design of the type of boat my father is looking for isn't what both of us are looking for. i don't see it being a compromise. what I keep showing my father is something along this line... http://newhaven.craigslist.org/boa/325479229.html he says the 305ci in there is too big, and will eat gas. (he also thinks that the I/O motor setup adds undue maintence and problems) that's why he likes those dinky little outbards. i agree with him that they're a pretty large motor, but the leap from fishing boat to bowrider adds considerable heft to the weight of the boat so the basic things a 1. please tell my father that a little fishing boat won't cut it for all-around pleasure boating. (i constantly try to batter it into his head that you can fish a bowrider, but you can't ride a fishing boat) 2. please tell him that they don't make bowriders with outboard motors so he's stuck with an I/O. 3. Please inform both of us about the different types of motors available for these things... so far i've found the 3.0L chrylser based mercruiser in newer ones, and the 5.0L Chevy 305 in some of the older ones. i know that those old boats are probably made mostly out of steel, and that they weigh a LOT compared to newer models. add to that the added weight of the outdrive setup, and barring any sort of huge weight difference(as the boats get newer), my guess is gonna be that the 3.0L is gonna come up short on power. but i guess the most important question that needs answering is... what kinda power does it actually take to watertube? to be able to hold its own against bigger boats? can the square stroke and good low-end torque of a 305 allow you to be conservative on gas for fishing? i think of it as a lot of trolling, anchoring and killing the motor, and relatively minimal full throttle time, making the difference in gas for a 5.0 Vs. a 3.0 pretty negligible.. i don't want to buy an outrageously oversized motor either, but i like to say it's better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it... now for the "how to buy it" part... i've read a lot about spotting problems with the hull, and the motor's not a real issue, i can easily tell the good from the bad there..., but the outdrive and steering mechanisms i haven't found good information on.... i already run like hell away from the ones with lots of salt water corrosion, but how about basic indicators on the condition of the outdrive? excess in/out play on the prop? turning the prop? maybe that will allow me to hear worn bearings or gear teeth? things like that would be awesome... i'm writing responses as I read them. Mike: thank you for your response... my father is just as willing to compromise as I am, but so far noone's told either of us what I wanted to hear, which is that you can't tow toys with an outboard. once he hears about this, he'll compromise and we'll argue over which kind of bowrider we should get instead of which kind of boat we should get. your information was much more helpful, because i think you understood best Everyone else: first thing's first, thank you for your responses... i had the idea in the back of my mind to take the boating courses, but this USPS course i don't know about... is that gonna end with me (and my father) getting our boating licenses? I was out on long Island sound with my buddy's 22' cobalt and he spent a good deal of time teaching me all about boating, rules of the water, what things mean, ect... but priority #1 is walking out with a boating license... if those courses do both (the ettiquite of the waves, the types of boats, advantages and disadvantages of stern drive Vs. Outboard, ect, along with leaving with a boating license, sign me up!) and no, i don't think we're that ideologically that far away that he won't accept anything less than a flat bottomed aluminum boat.... but i guess what i didn't get across in my first post is that he thinks something less than a bowrider (ie. quazi-fishing/pleasure boats) will serve our purposes. mike nailed what i needed to hear, and that's that you can't tow toys with an outboard. armed with that information, he'll give up and accept fishing off of a bowrider... let's not kid ourselves, neither my father or I fish enough or that enthusiaticially enough to warrant a flat bottomed aluminum boat. we won't need a livewell, we never catch anything! i joke but there is some truth behind it as to how recreationally we fish. i mean now that he knows we're stuck with an i/o (and a bowrider by default) it comes down to motor size. mike hinted at there not being much of a difference b/w an 80HP outboard and a 140HP i/o in terms of fuel consumption..... now that we're on the bowrider train, it comes down to a 3.0L chrysler versus the 5.0L chevy..... is it fair to say for my father's purposes that the difference in gas used will be negligable? sort of negligible? i think that's why he wanted an outboard motor-based boat in the 1st place, lower maintence plus lower fuel costs... not whether it gave him any advantage out on the lakes fishing.... if the answer is yes, then it's a 3.0L all the way. if no, then i guess it's up to me how bad I want to dig myself a hole... and last question, how about the performance differences b/w the 3.0L and the 5.0L? i could imagine it as a issue of power/weight ratio.... i would imagine these boats i'm looking at to be heavy! is the 140HP 3.0L gonna come up short because there's just a LOT of weight to move around... someone commented before that 145hp in a fishing boat would be FAST... clearly because of the power/weight ratio.... and in your guys opinion, is the power difference worth the 2 litres of displacement? in weight of the motor i doubt it would make a huge impact, but gas consumption it would...how do they stack up in terms of power? |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... The cops would look out for the kids and if things were getting out of hand, made sure they got back under control just by saying "Hey, I saw the Mother (or Father) the other night at...". The Harbor Master and Police boat always knew where we were. More than one occasion when we got up to something stupid, you'd see the Police or Harbor Master boats slowly move out of the harbor and just be present - it was enough to keep things calm and un stupid. Those were days when parents were not afraid to discipline kids when they needed it. As a kid my father, at over 6' 4" and 235 lbs was an imposing figure and one that I really didn't want to **** off by getting caught doing something stupid. He never physically hit me though ... unless I broke one rule ... and that was being mouthy or disrespectful to my mother. Then, all hell would break loose. My mother, on the other hand, often tried to take matters in her own hands out of pure frustration. If I really screwed up she'd give me a whack with whatever she found handy. I remember one time she came after me for doing something I shouldn't (or maybe it was for *not* doing something I should have) with a big, wide plastic belt from her raincoat or something. She let me have it, but the stupid thing was so lightweight I could hardly feel it. So, being the creative genius that I was at the time, I put on quite a show of dancing around, yelling "ouch" and whatever while begging her to stop. She decided the belt would now be her weapon of choice when I needed some correction. I got away with it for quite a while until one day I couldn't control myself and started laughing my ass off as she, all red in the face, whacked away. Eisboch |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)
"RCE" wrote in message ... "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... The cops would look out for the kids and if things were getting out of hand, made sure they got back under control just by saying "Hey, I saw the Mother (or Father) the other night at...". The Harbor Master and Police boat always knew where we were. More than one occasion when we got up to something stupid, you'd see the Police or Harbor Master boats slowly move out of the harbor and just be present - it was enough to keep things calm and un stupid. Those were days when parents were not afraid to discipline kids when they needed it. As a kid my father, at over 6' 4" and 235 lbs was an imposing figure and one that I really didn't want to **** off by getting caught doing something stupid. He never physically hit me though ... unless I broke one rule ... and that was being mouthy or disrespectful to my mother. Then, all hell would break loose. My mother, on the other hand, often tried to take matters in her own hands out of pure frustration. If I really screwed up she'd give me a whack with whatever she found handy. I remember one time she came after me for doing something I shouldn't (or maybe it was for *not* doing something I should have) with a big, wide plastic belt from her raincoat or something. She let me have it, but the stupid thing was so lightweight I could hardly feel it. So, being the creative genius that I was at the time, I put on quite a show of dancing around, yelling "ouch" and whatever while begging her to stop. She decided the belt would now be her weapon of choice when I needed some correction. I got away with it for quite a while until one day I couldn't control myself and started laughing my ass off as she, all red in the face, whacked away. Eisboch That sure brings back memories. I remember many a beat'in with belts, broom sticks etc....... and I was a fairly good kid. Did well in school and only had a police at our house a few times. (bad neighbourhood) Have to admit..we got pretty good at avoiding the city police. |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)
On Fri, 11 May 2007 10:16:27 -0400, "RCE" wrote:
Those were days when parents were not afraid to discipline kids when they needed it. I was never a problem child discipline wise. The Dominican Sisters took care of that up until the 5th grade where the Jesuit brothers took over. :) For some odd reason, that carried over to public high school. |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus followup Q's)
Don White wrote:
l and only had a police at our house a few times. (bad neighbourhood) Have to admit..we got pretty good at avoiding the city police. That explains a lot of things. |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(replies, plus follow up Q's)
On Thu, 10 May 2007 23:16:58 -0700, "Mike" wrote:
It seems like I sruck a nerve with Jim H. Apparently he didn't comprehend my statement in which I said that towing behind an outboard required either a tower (as in wakeboard tower), or a ski pole mounted in the boat. Sure an outbord can have plenty of power to pull a skiier or boarder, but that big engine hanging off the transom gets in the way. Most competition ski boats use a pole mounted just behind the engine (straight drive not vee drive), and an outboard can do the same thing. However, any seating behind the pole is useless while pulling a skiier. On the other hand, an inboard, or I/O can pull with a simple rope hook mounted on the transom, and doesn't interefere with seating. For most casual skiiers or boarders, this arrangement is just fine. Maybe Jim thinks you can mount a tow hook on the outboard itself? That's about the only way to do it so the motor doesn't interfere with the line. So, back to what I said, and inboard or I/O is much better for pulling people or toys. --Mike You use a bridle when towing with an outboard. Where have you been all your life? It's obvious you want an I/O or inboard, and honesty with your dad has nothing to do with it. |
HELP! what kind of boat and how to buy it...(kinda long, butworth it)
Gene Kearns wrote:
On Wed, 09 May 2007 10:12:53 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing penned the following well considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats: On Wed, 09 May 2007 00:57:02 -0400, Chris Larocque wrote: 3. Please inform both of us about the different types of motors available for these things... so far i've found the 3.0L chrylser based mercruiser in newer ones, and the 5.0L Chevy 305 in some of the older ones. I'm going to tell both of you right off the bat that this arrangement isn't going to work. You both have completely different ideas and will never be happy with a compromise boat. He's insisting on one thing, you are insisting on another. One has un-realistic expectations, the other not so much, but is still unaware or unwilling to compromise. Therefore - forget about a partnership - it will only cause the two of you problems. Apparently, you are unfamiliar with the "highly modified Bayliner 2252!" It'll do *anything,* even in 40 foot seas! It's known as the boat for all reasons. |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:15 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 BoatBanter.com