"Mike" wrote in message
...

It seems like I sruck a nerve with Jim H. Apparently he didn't comprehend
my statement in which I said that towing behind an outboard required
either a tower (as in wakeboard tower), or a ski pole mounted in the boat.
Sure an outbord can have plenty of power to pull a skiier or boarder, but
that big engine hanging off the transom gets in the way. Most competition
ski boats use a pole mounted just behind the engine (straight drive not
vee drive), and an outboard can do the same thing. However, any seating
behind the pole is useless while pulling a skiier. On the other hand, an
inboard, or I/O can pull with a simple rope hook mounted on the transom,
and doesn't interefere with seating. For most casual skiiers or boarders,
this arrangement is just fine. Maybe Jim thinks you can mount a tow hook
on the outboard itself? That's about the only way to do it so the motor
doesn't interfere with the line.

So, back to what I said, and inboard or I/O is much better for pulling
people or toys.

--Mike



In my youth I skied and tubed with outboard powered boats all the time and
none, except one had a tower or pole. Our ski/fishing/cruising boats were
equipped with a line attached to two "U" brackets mounted on each side of
the transom with backing plates. (Many boats come with them.) The tow
line attached to a heavy duty pulley that ran on the transom line, allowing
the tow line's point of attachment to run back and forth across the transom.
It didn't interfere with the engine at all.

RCE

On Thu, 10 May 2007 23:16:58 -0700, "Mike" wrote:

It seems like I sruck a nerve with Jim H. Apparently he didn't comprehend my
statement in which I said that towing behind an outboard required either a
tower (as in wakeboard tower), or a ski pole mounted in the boat. Sure an
outbord can have plenty of power to pull a skiier or boarder, but that big
engine hanging off the transom gets in the way. Most competition ski boats
use a pole mounted just behind the engine (straight drive not vee drive),
and an outboard can do the same thing. However, any seating behind the pole
is useless while pulling a skiier. On the other hand, an inboard, or I/O
can pull with a simple rope hook mounted on the transom, and doesn't
interefere with seating. For most casual skiiers or boarders, this
arrangement is just fine. Maybe Jim thinks you can mount a tow hook on the
outboard itself? That's about the only way to do it so the motor doesn't
interfere with the line.

So, back to what I said, and inboard or I/O is much better for pulling
people or toys.

--Mike

I have skied behind many outboards on many different styles of boats.
The ski rope simply had a Y on the end and one side of the Y hooked to
an eye on the left side of the transom and the other side of the Y
hooked to the eye on the right side. It worked as well as any other
configuration that I have ever used.

Dave Hall

"Chris Larocque" wrote in message
news
that's what I meant, for his purposes.... does anyone actually know
why inboards use less gas than outboards?

also, what about 140HP 3.0L? that's what i've been seeing lately....
sure the 190HP versions work fine, that's only 40HP off of the ratings
on the 305's... but the one's im seeing aren't rated for 190, more
like 140...


also anybody have an answer on the whole USPS question? can you take
on of their courses and walk out with a boating license?







On Wed, 9 May 2007 16:08:22 -0700, "Mike" wrote:

mike hinted at there not being
much of a difference b/w an 80HP outboard and a 140HP i/o in terms of
fuel consumption.....

Let's not take me too far out of context. I meant for your father's
purposes... motoring out to a fishing hole, setting the hook, and fishing.
For *your* purposes... cruising, pulling toys, etc, yeah, there'll be a
difference.

.now that we're on the bowrider train, it comes down to a 3.0L chrysler
versus the 5.0L chevy.....

I had an 18' Reinell bowrider powered with a 3.0L 190hp Merc. It was fast,
and had plenty of power to pull up a skiier or boarder. A small boat
doesn't
need a huge powerplant. If you're looking at 22-23' boats, then the 5L is
the best way to go. It's always best to have a little power to spare,
rather
than not enough. I would say as a rule of thumb, that anything less than
20'
is fine with a 3L, anything over 20' go with 5L.

Tell your dad that we fish off of our 23' bowrider all the time, and have
never had an issue. BTW, we catch fish like you do. g

--Mike

"Chris Larocque" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 09 May 2007 00:57:02 -0400, Chris Larocque
wrote:

after seeing one local for sale that turned out to have a messed up
hull, my father and I decided to buy a boat. we haven't come up to an
agreement on what kind, because honestly we don't know enough. we're
going half on the purchase price so it's all about compomise here.
(we're looking at 17-21' and from the mid80's to early 90's)

My intention is tubing and general pleasure craft-type activities. a
buddy of mine has a 22 or 23' Cobalt bowrider and having the 2 boats
riding around the lake tubing and cruising is what i'm after. I would
also like to fish with this boat. so for me, a 17-20' bowrider with a
Inboard/Outboard is a compromise.


My father on the other hand wants to fish with it. he says that he
wants to cruise with it too, but we can't seem to agree, as he shows
me ads for these boats I call fishing boats. they're mostly outboards
(in the 80ish HP range) and don't appear to be worth anything as
pleasure boats. they look something like this

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1994-...QQcmdZViewItem


they look to him like they would make pleasure boats, but to me they
look like dhingys.

when i explain to him that the dinky outboard motors won't cut it as
pleasure boats and boats like that lack a proper place to hook a line
for tubing and also lack a teak-wood deck for getting in and out the
boat easily, i get an answer such as:

1. you can hook a skiier up to the hooks for tying the boat up, or
even more funny, you can drill into the fiberglass on the back and
mount one. i don't even think i need to explain what's wrong with
that.

2. as for no deck, you can also mount one. one that hangs over the
stern and mounts inside. and not really a deck either, more or less a
ladder.

since we're going half in on it, I honestly think that the design of
the type of boat my father is looking for isn't what both of us are
looking for. i don't see it being a compromise.


what I keep showing my father is something along this line...

http://newhaven.craigslist.org/boa/325479229.html

he says the 305ci in there is too big, and will eat gas. (he also
thinks that the I/O motor setup adds undue maintence and problems)
that's why he likes those dinky little outbards. i agree with him that
they're a pretty large motor, but the leap from fishing boat to
bowrider adds considerable heft to the weight of the boat


so the basic things a

1. please tell my father that a little fishing boat won't cut it for
all-around pleasure boating. (i constantly try to batter it into his
head that you can fish a bowrider, but you can't ride a fishing boat)


2. please tell him that they don't make bowriders with outboard motors
so he's stuck with an I/O.

3. Please inform both of us about the different types of motors
available for these things... so far i've found the 3.0L chrylser
based mercruiser in newer ones, and the 5.0L Chevy 305 in some of the
older ones.

i know that those old boats are probably made mostly out of steel, and
that they weigh a LOT compared to newer models. add to that the added
weight of the outdrive setup, and barring any sort of huge weight
difference(as the boats get newer), my guess is gonna be that the 3.0L
is gonna come up short on power.

but i guess the most important question that needs answering is...
what kinda power does it actually take to watertube?

to be able to hold its own against bigger boats?

can the square stroke and good low-end torque of a 305 allow you to
be conservative on gas for fishing? i think of it as a lot of
trolling, anchoring and killing the motor, and relatively minimal full
throttle time, making the difference in gas for a 5.0 Vs. a 3.0 pretty
negligible.. i don't want to buy an outrageously oversized motor
either, but i like to say it's better to have it and not need it then
to need it and not have it...


now for the "how to buy it" part...

i've read a lot about spotting problems with the hull, and the motor's
not a real issue, i can easily tell the good from the bad there...,
but the outdrive and steering mechanisms i haven't found good
information on....

i already run like hell away from the ones with lots of salt water
corrosion, but how about basic indicators on the condition of the
outdrive?

excess in/out play on the prop?

turning the prop? maybe that will allow me to hear worn bearings or
gear teeth?

things like that would be awesome...





i'm writing responses as I read them.

Mike: thank you for your response... my father is just as willing to
compromise as I am, but so far noone's told either of us what I wanted
to hear, which is that you can't tow toys with an outboard. once he
hears about this, he'll compromise and we'll argue over which kind of
bowrider we should get instead of which kind of boat we should get.
your information was much more helpful, because i think you understood
best


Everyone else: first thing's first, thank you for your responses...

i had the idea in the back of my mind to take the boating courses,
but this USPS course i don't know about... is that gonna end with me
(and my father) getting our boating licenses? I was out on long
Island sound with my buddy's 22' cobalt and he spent a good deal of
time teaching me all about boating, rules of the water, what things
mean, ect... but priority #1 is walking out with a boating license...
if those courses do both (the ettiquite of the waves, the types of
boats, advantages and disadvantages of stern drive Vs. Outboard, ect,
along with leaving with a boating license, sign me up!)


and no, i don't think we're that ideologically that far away that he
won't accept anything less than a flat bottomed aluminum boat.... but
i guess what i didn't get across in my first post is that he thinks
something less than a bowrider (ie. quazi-fishing/pleasure boats) will
serve our purposes.

mike nailed what i needed to hear, and that's that you can't tow toys
with an outboard.

armed with that information, he'll give up and accept fishing off of a
bowrider... let's not kid ourselves, neither my father or I fish
enough or that enthusiaticially enough to warrant a flat bottomed
aluminum boat. we won't need a livewell, we never catch anything! i
joke but there is some truth behind it as to how recreationally we
fish.



i mean now that he knows we're stuck with an i/o (and a bowrider by
default) it comes down to motor size. mike hinted at there not being
much of a difference b/w an 80HP outboard and a 140HP i/o in terms of
fuel consumption.....

now that we're on the bowrider train, it comes down to a 3.0L chrysler
versus the 5.0L chevy.....

is it fair to say for my father's purposes that the difference in gas
used will be negligable? sort of negligible? i think that's why he
wanted an outboard motor-based boat in the 1st place, lower maintence
plus lower fuel costs... not whether it gave him any advantage out on
the lakes fishing....

if the answer is yes, then it's a 3.0L all the way. if no, then i
guess it's up to me how bad I want to dig myself a hole...

and last question, how about the performance differences b/w the 3.0L
and the 5.0L?

i could imagine it as a issue of power/weight ratio.... i would
imagine these boats i'm looking at to be heavy! is the 140HP 3.0L
gonna come up short because there's just a LOT of weight to move
around... someone commented before that 145hp in a fishing boat would
be FAST... clearly because of the power/weight ratio....

and in your guys opinion, is the power difference worth the 2 litres
of displacement? in weight of the motor i doubt it would make a huge
impact, but gas consumption it would...how do they stack up in terms
of power?

On Thu, 10 May 2007 23:16:58 -0700, "Mike" wrote:

It seems like I sruck a nerve with Jim H. Apparently he didn't comprehend my
statement in which I said that towing behind an outboard required either a
tower (as in wakeboard tower), or a ski pole mounted in the boat. Sure an
outbord can have plenty of power to pull a skiier or boarder, but that big
engine hanging off the transom gets in the way. Most competition ski boats
use a pole mounted just behind the engine (straight drive not vee drive),
and an outboard can do the same thing. However, any seating behind the pole
is useless while pulling a skiier. On the other hand, an inboard, or I/O
can pull with a simple rope hook mounted on the transom, and doesn't
interefere with seating. For most casual skiiers or boarders, this
arrangement is just fine. Maybe Jim thinks you can mount a tow hook on the
outboard itself? That's about the only way to do it so the motor doesn't
interfere with the line.

So, back to what I said, and inboard or I/O is much better for pulling
people or toys.

--Mike


You use a bridle when towing with an outboard. Where have you been all your
life? It's obvious you want an I/O or inboard, and honesty with your dad
has nothing to do with it.

On Wed, 09 May 2007 18:13:30 -0400, Chris Larocque
wrote:


i'm writing responses as I read them.

Mike: thank you for your response... my father is just as willing to
compromise as I am, but so far noone's told either of us what I wanted
to hear, which is that you can't tow toys with an outboard. once he
hears about this, he'll compromise and we'll argue over which kind of
bowrider we should get instead of which kind of boat we should get.
your information was much more helpful, because i think you understood
best

Bull****. Outboards pull toys just fine.


Everyone else: first thing's first, thank you for your responses...

i had the idea in the back of my mind to take the boating courses,
but this USPS course i don't know about... is that gonna end with me
(and my father) getting our boating licenses?

No, it's going to end with you and your father knowing a lot more about
boating than what some 'buddy' told you.

I was out on long
Island sound with my buddy's 22' cobalt and he spent a good deal of
time teaching me all about boating, rules of the water, what things
mean, ect... but priority #1 is walking out with a boating license...
if those courses do both (the ettiquite of the waves, the types of
boats, advantages and disadvantages of stern drive Vs. Outboard, ect,
along with leaving with a boating license, sign me up!)




and no, i don't think we're that ideologically that far away that he
won't accept anything less than a flat bottomed aluminum boat.... but
i guess what i didn't get across in my first post is that he thinks
something less than a bowrider (ie. quazi-fishing/pleasure boats) will
serve our purposes.

mike nailed what i needed to hear, and that's that you can't tow toys
with an outboard.

Mike was wrong, or you misunderstood him.

armed with that information, he'll give up and accept fishing off of a
bowrider... let's not kid ourselves, neither my father or I fish
enough or that enthusiaticially enough to warrant a flat bottomed
aluminum boat. we won't need a livewell, we never catch anything! i
joke but there is some truth behind it as to how recreationally we
fish.



i mean now that he knows we're stuck with an i/o (and a bowrider by
default) it comes down to motor size. mike hinted at there not being
much of a difference b/w an 80HP outboard and a 140HP i/o in terms of
fuel consumption.....

now that we're on the bowrider train, it comes down to a 3.0L chrysler
versus the 5.0L chevy.....

is it fair to say for my father's purposes that the difference in gas
used will be negligable? sort of negligible? i think that's why he
wanted an outboard motor-based boat in the 1st place, lower maintence
plus lower fuel costs... not whether it gave him any advantage out on
the lakes fishing....

if the answer is yes, then it's a 3.0L all the way. if no, then i
guess it's up to me how bad I want to dig myself a hole...

and last question, how about the performance differences b/w the 3.0L
and the 5.0L?

i could imagine it as a issue of power/weight ratio.... i would
imagine these boats i'm looking at to be heavy! is the 140HP 3.0L
gonna come up short because there's just a LOT of weight to move
around... someone commented before that 145hp in a fishing boat would
be FAST... clearly because of the power/weight ratio....

and in your guys opinion, is the power difference worth the 2 litres
of displacement? in weight of the motor i doubt it would make a huge
impact, but gas consumption it would...how do they stack up in terms
of power?

Chris Larocque wrote:
On Wed, 09 May 2007 00:57:02 -0400, Chris Larocque
wrote:

i'm writing responses as I read them.

Mike: thank you for your response... my father is just as willing to
compromise as I am, but so far noone's told either of us what I wanted
to hear, which is that you can't tow toys with an outboard.

No one has told you that because if they did they would be wrong. Of
course you can pull toys with an outboard. You may as well be waiting
for someone to tell you the world is flat.

i had the idea in the back of my mind to take the boating courses,
but this USPS course i don't know about... is that gonna end with me
(and my father) getting our boating licenses? I was out on long
Island sound with my buddy's 22' cobalt and he spent a good deal of
time teaching me all about boating, rules of the water, what things
mean, ect... but priority #1 is walking out with a boating license...
if those courses do both (the ettiquite of the waves, the types of
boats, advantages and disadvantages of stern drive Vs. Outboard, ect,
along with leaving with a boating license, sign me up!)

Since you mention Long Island Sound I assume you are either in New York
State (Long Island or Westchester) or in Connecticut. Neither state
issues or requires a "boating license". However, in order to operate a
power boat, Connecticut now requires proof that one has passed a NASBLA*
approved boating course. New York State require such proof for those
under 18 (and for anyone to operate a PWC), and there is a bill in front
of the legislature to require proof of education for everyone operating
a power boat. The Power Squadron Boating Course is not only NASBLA
approved - it is the model upon which other courses are based, and it is
the most comprehensive. And yes, you will be issued a certificate upon
passing the course.

All that being said, forget about NASBLA* and licenses and certificates.
To go boating without basic formal education is just plain idiotic,
whether you have a "buddy" to show you the ropes or not. One of the
reasons boating is getting more scary and stressful is that too many
boaters think they know it all when they really don't. I hope you are
not one of them.

Did your "buddy" teach you how to tie a bowline? How to read a chart?
How to plot a course or determine your position on one? How about what
the laws are regarding PFD's? VDS's? Capacity and overloading? Did he
teach you about close quarter maneuvering? The "General Rule of
Responsibility"? Order of Priority? How about on board weather
forecasting? Using DSC? Proper ventilation for enclosed fuel tanks and
engine compartments? Did he show you all of the procedures for fueling
that would save you from a $25,000 fine or minimize the chance of you
blowing yourself and everyone else on the dock to bits? Did he teach
you about Variation vs Deviation? Mayday vs Pan-Pan vs Securite? Mo-A?
etc etc etc etc etc? Please don't be foolish about this. Take the
damn course!!


mike nailed what i needed to hear, and that's that you can't tow toys
with an outboard.

As someone else posted, either Mike was wrong or you misunderstood him.
You can absolutely, positively pull toys with an outboard. Could it
be you just think an i/o is cooler looking?


Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"


*NASBLA = National Association of Boating Law Administrators

"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...

All that being said, forget about NASBLA* and licenses and certificates.
To go boating without basic formal education is just plain idiotic,
whether you have a "buddy" to show you the ropes or not. One of the
reasons boating is getting more scary and stressful is that too many
boaters think they know it all when they really don't. I hope you are not
one of them.

Did your "buddy" teach you how to tie a bowline? How to read a chart? How
to plot a course or determine your position on one? How about what the
laws are regarding PFD's? VDS's? Capacity and overloading? Did he teach
you about close quarter maneuvering? The "General Rule of
Responsibility"? Order of Priority? How about on board weather
forecasting? Using DSC? Proper ventilation for enclosed fuel tanks and
engine compartments? Did he show you all of the procedures for fueling
that would save you from a $25,000 fine or minimize the chance of you
blowing yourself and everyone else on the dock to bits? Did he teach you
about Variation vs Deviation? Mayday vs Pan-Pan vs Securite? Mo-A? etc
etc etc etc etc? Please don't be foolish about this. Take the damn
course!!



How the heck did the last 4 or 5 generations manage to go boating and still
manage to stick around long enough to produce us?

Eisboch

RCE wrote:
"Larry Weiss" wrote in message
...

All that being said, forget about NASBLA* and licenses and certificates.
To go boating without basic formal education is just plain idiotic,
whether you have a "buddy" to show you the ropes or not. One of the
reasons boating is getting more scary and stressful is that too many
boaters think they know it all when they really don't. I hope you are not
one of them.

Did your "buddy" teach you how to tie a bowline? How to read a chart? How
to plot a course or determine your position on one? How about what the
laws are regarding PFD's? VDS's? Capacity and overloading? Did he teach
you about close quarter maneuvering? The "General Rule of
Responsibility"? Order of Priority? How about on board weather
forecasting? Using DSC? Proper ventilation for enclosed fuel tanks and
engine compartments? Did he show you all of the procedures for fueling
that would save you from a $25,000 fine or minimize the chance of you
blowing yourself and everyone else on the dock to bits? Did he teach you
about Variation vs Deviation? Mayday vs Pan-Pan vs Securite? Mo-A? etc
etc etc etc etc? Please don't be foolish about this. Take the damn
course!!




How the heck did the last 4 or 5 generations manage to go boating and still
manage to stick around long enough to produce us?

Eisboch


Seriously? Many didn't. But knowing the generation older than me that
is still alive, I would say they and their predecessors had a whole lot
more respect for good seamanship than many people today. Also, keep in
mind the Power Squadron has been teaching their boating courses for what
- 80 or 90 years or so? "Chapman's Piloting" is up to what - its 64th
edition? It not like safe boating courses just became available yesterday.

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"

On Thu, 10 May 2007 17:59:20 -0400, Larry Weiss
wrote:

Neither state ssues or requires a "boating license".

Wrong.

You are required in CT to obtain a Safe Boating Certificate (or
license - semantics) issued by the State on completion of a state
authorized 8/10 hour safe boating course.

Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On Thu, 10 May 2007 17:59:20 -0400, Larry Weiss
wrote:


Neither state ssues or requires a "boating license".


Wrong.

You are required in CT to obtain a Safe Boating Certificate (or
license - semantics) issued by the State on completion of a state
authorized 8/10 hour safe boating course.

You are right - its semantics. Connecticut calls it a "Certificate",
not a "License", but it is issued by the government upon proof of
passing a recognized boating course, so I suppose it could be called a
license. Details are he
http://www.ct.gov/dep/cwp/view.asp?a...emen tProgram

Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"