The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
 

"Eisboch" wrote in message
. ..

Do you know what cracks me up about some of the various views expressed
about fuel prices?

It wasn't too many years ago that those with more left leaning political
views were concerned about the high consumption rate of gasoline in the
USA, it's continued supply and it's artificially low price per gallon
compared to the rest of the world. Conservation was preached, encouraged
and some even advocated raising the price of gas to force further
conservation and the use of smaller, fuel efficient autos in order to
reduce demand.


Fast forward to today and it seems that the same people are now blaming
big business greed and politicians lining their pockets for the natural
increase in prices.

Can't win.

Eisboch


The problem with preaching conservation is that the suggested methods
usually involve long term solutions. I wonder what would happen if a real
president with some balls said the following during one of his TV
appearances:

"I can fund research until the cows come home, but we might never find
solutions which make every type of vehicle more efficient. And, at some
point, you have to stop looking for others to find solutions, and volunteer
to do the one thing that's inarguably effective. Next time you're ready to
buy a car, be honest, and buy based on your real needs. Stop thinking that
the only alternative to an SUV is a Ford Focus. Ignore the crap you're being
told in the commercials. Is the only reason you bought an SUV that you have
a family of 5 and a week's worth of groceries? Wouldn't a van fit your needs
equally well? Did you justify the SUV by convincing yourself they were
safer, or that you wanted to be able to see over all the other trucks? Did
you buy a pickup to haul 3 sheets of plywood just once in the entire time
you owned the vehicle? Those aren't reasons. I'm not saying you have to go
out and buy a Prius or a Mini-Cooper. But, how about reducing your gas usage
by 30%, just by looking at the difference between an SUV and a mini-van?
(points to chart with 5 car models shown below) We can't create laws to
change your buying habits, and there's nothing I can do about what oil
companies charge for fuel. But, you are capable of having a significant
impact on how much oil this country uses.

If you're not buying a car this year, write to your favorite car
manufacturer and tell them what you want to buy when you're ready. If they
continue to pile up SUVs at their dealerships, that's their problem, not
yours.

During WWII, our grandparents planted victory gardens. You can't pick a
better car, in order to help this country? Grow up already."


Toyota Sequoia SUV: 15/18 mpg
Toyota Sienna van: 19/26 mpg
Chrysler Town & Country van: 19/26 mpg
Ford Crown Victoria: 17/26 mpg
Buick Lucerne: 17/28 mpg

The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
 

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Eisboch" wrote in message
. ..

Do you know what cracks me up about some of the various views expressed
about fuel prices?

It wasn't too many years ago that those with more left leaning political
views were concerned about the high consumption rate of gasoline in the
USA, it's continued supply and it's artificially low price per gallon
compared to the rest of the world. Conservation was preached, encouraged
and some even advocated raising the price of gas to force further
conservation and the use of smaller, fuel efficient autos in order to
reduce demand.


Fast forward to today and it seems that the same people are now blaming
big business greed and politicians lining their pockets for the natural
increase in prices.

Can't win.

Eisboch


The problem with preaching conservation is that the suggested methods
usually involve long term solutions. I wonder what would happen if a real
president with some balls said the following during one of his TV
appearances:

"I can fund research until the cows come home, but we might never find
solutions which make every type of vehicle more efficient. And, at some
point, you have to stop looking for others to find solutions, and
volunteer to do the one thing that's inarguably effective. Next time
you're ready to buy a car, be honest, and buy based on your real needs.
Stop thinking that the only alternative to an SUV is a Ford Focus. Ignore
the crap you're being told in the commercials. Is the only reason you
bought an SUV that you have a family of 5 and a week's worth of groceries?
Wouldn't a van fit your needs equally well? Did you justify the SUV by
convincing yourself they were safer, or that you wanted to be able to see
over all the other trucks? Did you buy a pickup to haul 3 sheets of
plywood just once in the entire time you owned the vehicle? Those aren't
reasons. I'm not saying you have to go out and buy a Prius or a
Mini-Cooper. But, how about reducing your gas usage by 30%, just by
looking at the difference between an SUV and a mini-van? (points to chart
with 5 car models shown below) We can't create laws to change your buying
habits, and there's nothing I can do about what oil companies charge for
fuel. But, you are capable of having a significant impact on how much oil
this country uses.

If you're not buying a car this year, write to your favorite car
manufacturer and tell them what you want to buy when you're ready. If they
continue to pile up SUVs at their dealerships, that's their problem, not
yours.

During WWII, our grandparents planted victory gardens. You can't pick a
better car, in order to help this country? Grow up already."


Toyota Sequoia SUV: 15/18 mpg
Toyota Sienna van: 19/26 mpg
Chrysler Town & Country van: 19/26 mpg
Ford Crown Victoria: 17/26 mpg
Buick Lucerne: 17/28 mpg


What is an SUV? My wife drives a 1996 S-10 Blazer. It is smaller than the
Sienna van.

The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
 

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
ink.net...

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
"Eisboch" wrote in message
. ..

Do you know what cracks me up about some of the various views expressed
about fuel prices?

It wasn't too many years ago that those with more left leaning political
views were concerned about the high consumption rate of gasoline in the
USA, it's continued supply and it's artificially low price per gallon
compared to the rest of the world. Conservation was preached,
encouraged and some even advocated raising the price of gas to force
further conservation and the use of smaller, fuel efficient autos in
order to reduce demand.


Fast forward to today and it seems that the same people are now blaming
big business greed and politicians lining their pockets for the natural
increase in prices.

Can't win.

Eisboch


The problem with preaching conservation is that the suggested methods
usually involve long term solutions. I wonder what would happen if a real
president with some balls said the following during one of his TV
appearances:

"I can fund research until the cows come home, but we might never find
solutions which make every type of vehicle more efficient. And, at some
point, you have to stop looking for others to find solutions, and
volunteer to do the one thing that's inarguably effective. Next time
you're ready to buy a car, be honest, and buy based on your real needs.
Stop thinking that the only alternative to an SUV is a Ford Focus. Ignore
the crap you're being told in the commercials. Is the only reason you
bought an SUV that you have a family of 5 and a week's worth of
groceries? Wouldn't a van fit your needs equally well? Did you justify
the SUV by convincing yourself they were safer, or that you wanted to be
able to see over all the other trucks? Did you buy a pickup to haul 3
sheets of plywood just once in the entire time you owned the vehicle?
Those aren't reasons. I'm not saying you have to go out and buy a Prius
or a Mini-Cooper. But, how about reducing your gas usage by 30%, just by
looking at the difference between an SUV and a mini-van? (points to chart
with 5 car models shown below) We can't create laws to change your buying
habits, and there's nothing I can do about what oil companies charge for
fuel. But, you are capable of having a significant impact on how much oil
this country uses.

If you're not buying a car this year, write to your favorite car
manufacturer and tell them what you want to buy when you're ready. If
they continue to pile up SUVs at their dealerships, that's their problem,
not yours.

During WWII, our grandparents planted victory gardens. You can't pick a
better car, in order to help this country? Grow up already."


Toyota Sequoia SUV: 15/18 mpg
Toyota Sienna van: 19/26 mpg
Chrysler Town & Country van: 19/26 mpg
Ford Crown Victoria: 17/26 mpg
Buick Lucerne: 17/28 mpg


What is an SUV? My wife drives a 1996 S-10 Blazer. It is smaller than
the Sienna van.


You know exactly what I mean. Stick with the example shown, since it is 100%
valid in this context.

The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
 

On May 8, 9:28�am, "Eisboch" wrote:
Do you know what cracks me up about some of the various views expressed
about fuel prices?

It wasn't too many years ago that those with more left leaning political
views were concerned about the high consumption rate of gasoline in the USA,
it's continued supply and it's artificially low price per gallon compared to
the rest of the world. *Conservation was preached, encouraged and some even
advocated raising the price of gas to force further conservation and the use
of smaller, fuel efficient autos in order to reduce demand.

Fast forward to today and it seems that the same people are now blaming big
business greed and politicians lining their pockets for the natural increase
in prices.

Can't win.

Eisboch

?????????????? You start by identifying a group comprised of "those
with more left leaning political views" and then begin ascribing a
common sentiment to everybody in that group. That's pretty dangerous
ground. No group is comprised of people who all think exactly the same
way.

More left than what?

Stereotypes are nearly always wrong.

But, to the remainder of your comment.....

Is market manipulation the same as a "natural increase" in prices?

Will yanking the price up and down to assure that the greener
technologies the high prices encourage don't achieve any real economic
traction ultimately result in an energy-efficient economy and
society? As surely as we're flirting with $4 (very close to that for
92 Octane in a lot of places on the W coast right now) in the late
spring and perhaps beyond, prices will begin moderating by July. By
fall they'll be "down" to $2.65 a gallon and we'll all be singing
"Happy Days are Here Again" until late February 2008.

Raping and pillaging at a little higher rate for a little longer every
year is a shrewd business practice. No problem with that, you don't
get to be a policy maker in a major oil company by being anything less
than shrewd. Pile up the mega-billions in profits in a short period of
time, and then start loosening the noose before the politicians have
to begin listening to the anguished cries of suffering constituents.

The oil companies have a right to earn a profit. We don't have any
right to cheap oil. The frustration is in being so blatantly
manipulated, and a minor amusement is hearing the programmed
apologists offering the freshest round of big oil excuses for the
various refinery emergencies that just happen to occur during the same
strategically beneficial period each year.

Conservation remains in the best interest of western civiliation.
There are important differences between a national conservation policy
that creates some reasonable alternatives to the consumption of
petroleum products and a marketing scheme by BIGOIL. I burn bio diesel
in the boat and bought a hybrid car. If everybody did only an
equivalent amount, we would break the choke hold of BIGOIL. Difference
is, I'm not prepared or inclined to *demand* that everybody drive a
hybrid, burn bio-diesel, or do something else roughly equivalent.
BIGOIL and their crew of apologists does demand that everybody swap a
pint of blood for a gallon of gas everytime they need fuel for
business or pleasure use.

We have a social and physical infrastructure founded on the assumption
that cheap oil would be almost eternally available. It's hard to
imagine that more than a tiny percentage of folks still think that
cheap oil will prevail in the future or that the current and recent
annual pricing trends are just flukes. A progressive society would
strive toward an orderly transition and energy independence from our
professed enemies, but we sit around fairly helplessly and allow a
tough situation (that most of us agree is a reality) to do little more
than serve as a fig leaf for profiteering by BIGOIL.

My boat burns about 2 gph. Even at $15-20 a gallon I could afford to
go boating. From a personal perspective, I'm fairly immune to the
effects of fuel costs gone out of control. Most of my friends and
business associates are boaters or depend on the boating industry for
a livlihood (as do I). So yeah, I'm personally pretty concerned about
the long term ramifications to boating as a recreational activity and/
or viable business fostered by scandalous profiteering. Yes, even
though the oil companies have every legal right to charge as much as
they can get away with and even if, in the same position, I would
likely do the same.

The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Eisboch wrote:
Do you know what cracks me up about some of the various views expressed
about fuel prices?

It wasn't too many years ago that those with more left leaning political
views were concerned about the high consumption rate of gasoline in the
USA, it's continued supply and it's artificially low price per gallon
compared to the rest of the world. Conservation was preached, encouraged
and some even advocated raising the price of gas to force further
conservation and the use of smaller, fuel efficient autos in order to
reduce demand.


Fast forward to today and it seems that the same people are now blaming
big business greed and politicians lining their pockets for the natural
increase in prices.

Can't win.

Eisboch

It's not a "natural" increase...it's a manipulated increase.


If those who advocated increasing gas prices to encourage conservation had
their way ... wouldn't that also have been "manipulated"?

I think Europeans who, for many, have been paying double what we pay for
years are getting a kick out of all our whining.

Eisboch

The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
 

"Fred Garvin, Male Prostitute" wrote in message
...
In message , JoeSpareBedroom sprach
forth the following:

I'm not saying you have to go
out and buy a Prius

Good.

http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister...article_164968
5.php

Speaking of Hummers, perhaps it is environmentally responsible to buy one
and squash a Prius with it. The Toyota Prius hybrid is, of course, fuel-
efficient. There are, however, environmental costs to mining and smelting
(in Canada) 1,000 tons a year of zinc for the battery-powered second
motor,
and the shipping of the zinc 10,000 miles – trailing a cloud of carbon –
to
Wales for refining and then to China for turning it into the component
that
goes to a battery factory in Japan.

Opinions differ as to whether acid rain from the Canadian mining and
smelting operation is killing vegetation that once absorbed carbon
dioxide.
But a report from CNW Marketing Research ("Dust to Dust: The Energy Cost
of
New Vehicles from Concept to Disposal") concludes that in "dollars per
lifetime mile," a Prius (expected life: 109,000 miles) costs $3.25,
compared with $1.95 for a Hummer H3 (expected life: 207,000 miles).


.....none of which is relevant to the idea of a leader asking Americans to
make behavioral changes that won't hurt a bit, and will actually help.

The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
 

On May 8, 11:03�am, "Fred Garvin, Male Prostitute"
wrote:
In . earthlink.net,
Calif Bill sprach forth the following:

The rules of a capitalistic market do not apply when the raw materials
are controlled by an oligopoly.

The US produces 1/3 of its own oil consumption, and imports the rest from
many countries.

There is no opportunity for new
players to enter the field and supply superior or cheaper refined
products.

Not so long as there are 41 insane Senators there isn't. *Sad.

Even *if* there were a new and independent refinery built,
the operators would need to rely on their competitors for raw
materials....not a good business model in any industry.

Not all oil companies are drillers and transporters and refiners.

There is a shortage of refined product because world demand has
increased to the point where there is no longer any surplus supply.

Due primarily to the aforementioned insane Senators.

If that attitude disrupts economies or creates hardships for
people who have previously relied on a predictable supply of a product
at a predictable price that's too fricking bad. The oil companies are
in business to make a profit......period.

And the oil campanies are the only businesses in the entire world that er
"in business to make a profit". *Oh, wait. *No they're not. *So your point
is worthless.

Few people are going to buy any
recreational vessel or vehicle that needs to consume enormous
quantities of petroleum products to operate, and who can blame them?
Tough as it is when the costs are $4-5 at the fuel dock, imagine what
would happen if fuel goes to $6-7, or $7-8?

All the more reason to open ANWR.

I think I can see where we're going on a few fronts over the next few
to several years, and I wish the picture were slightly prettier from
here.

All the more reason to open ANWR.

We're entering an era of fewer options for all but the folks in
the very highest income brackets, as well as when a flock of
consequences begin coming home to roost.

All the more reason to open ANWR.

Most of the retooling of refineries is a government requirement. *Going
from Winter to Summer Blend. *When California had real shortages a
couple of years ago, we could not get fuel from Arizona, that had a
surplus, because it did not meet the Calif. State blend requirements.

All the more reason to storm the statehouse. *And then open ANWR :-).

And the refineries were required to add MTBE. *The stuff ate up seals
at an extreme rate. *One of the reasons there were more refinery fires.

Your tax dollars at ****up. *Anyone notice a theme here?

A theme?

Yeah, you keep advocating for opening ANWR. :-)

USGS estimates that peak production from ANWR would be only about
876,000 bbl a day, and that's ten years or more out there. At current
consumption, that's around 3% of US energy needs.

There is also no assurance that if the Japanese, the Chinese, or
somebody else is willing to pay a lot more for oil recovered from ANWR
that a single drop of this crude would ever be refined in or sold in
the US. If congress passed a law that oil fron ANWR *must* be refined
and sold in the US, that would merely free up some other domestic
supply to be sold overseas.

Must we rape every last corner of the planet in pursuit of a 19th
century economic model before we move forward into the 21st? I'd like
to think not.

Pleasure boating, as we know it today, may not be part of the
landscape before too many more years go by. That could be part of
moving forward into the 21st Century. Damn. But whoever said life was
fair?

The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
 

On Mon, 7 May 2007 23:30:10 -0300, "Don White"
wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 7 May 2007 19:02:52 -0300, "Don White"
wrote:


"John H." wrote in message
...

You just got blown out of the water. Bedroom full this weekend?


You picking fights with everyone you come across this week Johnny?
Please explain again how this improves the newsgroup.


Tell us again about the most popular transportation in Canada. Surely it's
not a gas guzzler, right?

Donnie, that *was* funny, and you know it!

Do you really have that much trouble reading and understanding what you
read? No wonder the school system is in such a mess.
I said " The best selling car in Canada for a number of years has been the
Honda Civic"
You do understand the difference between a 'car' and a 'truck' don't you
Johnny?


And now you're doing the Canadian Two-Step. Pretty cute, too!

The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
 

"Fred Garvin, Male Prostitute" wrote in message
...
In message , JoeSpareBedroom sprach
forth the following:

"Fred Garvin, Male Prostitute" wrote in message
...
In message , JoeSpareBedroom
sprach forth the following:

I'm not saying you have to go
out and buy a Prius

Good.

http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister...mns/article_16
4968 5.php

Speaking of Hummers, perhaps it is environmentally responsible to buy
one and squash a Prius with it. The Toyota Prius hybrid is, of course,
fuel- efficient. There are, however, environmental costs to mining and
smelting (in Canada) 1,000 tons a year of zinc for the battery-powered
second motor,
and the shipping of the zinc 10,000 miles – trailing a cloud of carbon
– to
Wales for refining and then to China for turning it into the component
that
goes to a battery factory in Japan.

Opinions differ as to whether acid rain from the Canadian mining and
smelting operation is killing vegetation that once absorbed carbon
dioxide.
But a report from CNW Marketing Research ("Dust to Dust: The Energy
Cost of
New Vehicles from Concept to Disposal") concludes that in "dollars per
lifetime mile," a Prius (expected life: 109,000 miles) costs $3.25,
compared with $1.95 for a Hummer H3 (expected life: 207,000 miles).


....none of which is relevant to the idea of a leader asking Americans
to make behavioral changes that won't hurt a bit, and will actually
help.

You mean like getting the Senate to get the **** out of the way and
opening
ANWR?


That's an example of something that's contentious, and could take forever to
deal with. Sort of like the never ending debate about the meaning of the 2nd
amendment. Meanwhile, asking people to grow up and take responsibility for
their actions is free, and will actually work, starting immediately. Are you
resistant to the idea of voluntary behavioral changes?

The cost of boating just went up. Gas hits all-time high.
 

On May 8, 11:40?am, "Fred Garvin, Male Prostitute"
wrote:
In oglegroups.com, Chuck
Gould sprach forth the following:

Must we rape every last corner of the planet

Ah, demagoguery - such pathetic pretty words compose thee.

Ah, obfuscation- those who cannot address the argument will take issue
with a single phrase.