"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 18:50:40 -0400, Jeff wrote:


BTW, although he never mentions it, the boat he keeps referring to as
the "bad cat" is a Prout - solid deck, narrow, center pod, etc. Prout
essentially created the modern cruising cat. They built 5000 hulls,
which are sailing all over the world with a near perfect safety
record. Dozens have circumnavigated - perhaps more than any other
brand of sailboat. I've never heard of any capsizing - they have a
very heavy hull and undersized rig, and the central pod provides
enormous forward buoyancy in pitchpole situations. However, they were
not sold by Bay Yacht. Bay Yacht did, however, sell the FP Tobago
35'. Everyone has an agenda.

Yes, it's difficult to cut through agendas.
Sorting out the real facts is what's important, and then adjusting to
those facts. Knowing what really caused this catamaran to go upside
down would be a useful fact.


It got hit by a squall. That's what a couple different reports have
said. Just google "catamaran rescue".

The bottom line is the wind in the sails flipped the boat over. The same
nor'easter that's wreaking havoc on the NE trailed a cold front through
the Gulf and the squall line with winds gusting to 50knots passed right
through the area where the catamaran turned turtle at the very time it
flipped over. The crew probably was not even aware of the frontal
passage squall line as NOAA weather radio does not have the range
necessary. BTW the wind was from the SW prior to the squall line passing
and quickly veered to the NW. This means they probably were running
maybe with a spinnaker or a large genny. If they didn't note the squall
line approaching, they could have got taken unawares. BAM! Fifty knots
on the beam with a 150% spinnaker = instant knockdown for a mono or
instant capsize for a cat. This is the big problem with catamarans.
Their initial stability is great - better than a monohull. But hit them
with a blast of wind on the beam and they tend to lift a hull. Once that
happens, the stability curve gets logarithmically less until, at 90
degrees, it is zero, zilch, nada. Another thing that tends to compound
the problem is when hit with a strong blast of wind from the beam a
catamaran doesn't have much tendency to turn up into the wind like a
monohull does. The hull form and ballast of a monohull tends to head the
boat up where the wind can't knock it down whereas a catamaran doesn't
head up at all. Face it, a catamaran is a poor design for ocean
voyaging.

Wilbur Hubbard

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:22:00 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:


It got hit by a squall. That's what a couple different reports have
said. Just google "catamaran rescue".

Yeah, but just this week numerous news reports reported that the 40'
fiberglass sailboat Aqua Mist flew apart in rough water off the coast
of Florida. Turns out the Aqua Mist is (was) a 42' customized
Uniflite sportfisher.

The bottom line is the wind in the sails flipped the boat over. The same
nor'easter that's wreaking havoc on the NE trailed a cold front through
the Gulf and the squall line with winds gusting to 50knots passed right
through the area where the catamaran turned turtle at the very time it
flipped over. The crew probably was not even aware of the frontal
passage squall line as NOAA weather radio does not have the range
necessary. BTW the wind was from the SW prior to the squall line passing
and quickly veered to the NW. This means they probably were running
maybe with a spinnaker or a large genny. If they didn't note the squall
line approaching, they could have got taken unawares. BAM! Fifty knots
on the beam with a 150% spinnaker = instant knockdown for a mono or
instant capsize for a cat. This is the big problem with catamarans.
Their initial stability is great - better than a monohull. But hit them
with a blast of wind on the beam and they tend to lift a hull. Once that
happens, the stability curve gets logarithmically less until, at 90
degrees, it is zero, zilch, nada. Another thing that tends to compound
the problem is when hit with a strong blast of wind from the beam a
catamaran doesn't have much tendency to turn up into the wind like a
monohull does. The hull form and ballast of a monohull tends to head the
boat up where the wind can't knock it down whereas a catamaran doesn't
head up at all. Face it, a catamaran is a poor design for ocean
voyaging.

Sounds right, though I've read a strong beam wind also pushes the cat
sideways. I guess that depends on the hulls resistance to the water
due to load and draft and how strong a wind overcomes that.
Has anybody considered an automatic sheet releasing mechanism
for catamarans? Any heel that would lift a hull would release the
sheets. Wouldn't have to be complicated.

--Vic

On Apr 16, 6:44 pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:22:00 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"

wrote:

It got hit by a squall. That's what a couple different reports have
said. Just google "catamaran rescue".

Yeah, but just this week numerous news reports reported that the 40'
fiberglass sailboat Aqua Mist flew apart in rough water off the coast
of Florida. Turns out the Aqua Mist is (was) a 42' customized
Uniflite sportfisher.





The bottom line is the wind in the sails flipped the boat over. The same
nor'easter that's wreaking havoc on the NE trailed a cold front through
the Gulf and the squall line with winds gusting to 50knots passed right
through the area where the catamaran turned turtle at the very time it
flipped over. The crew probably was not even aware of the frontal
passage squall line as NOAA weather radio does not have the range
necessary. BTW the wind was from the SW prior to the squall line passing
and quickly veered to the NW. This means they probably were running
maybe with a spinnaker or a large genny. If they didn't note the squall
line approaching, they could have got taken unawares. BAM! Fifty knots
on the beam with a 150% spinnaker = instant knockdown for a mono or
instant capsize for a cat. This is the big problem with catamarans.
Their initial stability is great - better than a monohull. But hit them
with a blast of wind on the beam and they tend to lift a hull. Once that
happens, the stability curve gets logarithmically less until, at 90
degrees, it is zero, zilch, nada. Another thing that tends to compound
the problem is when hit with a strong blast of wind from the beam a
catamaran doesn't have much tendency to turn up into the wind like a
monohull does. The hull form and ballast of a monohull tends to head the
boat up where the wind can't knock it down whereas a catamaran doesn't
head up at all. Face it, a catamaran is a poor design for ocean
voyaging.

Sounds right, though I've read a strong beam wind also pushes the cat
sideways. I guess that depends on the hulls resistance to the water
due to load and draft and how strong a wind overcomes that.
Has anybody considered an automatic sheet releasing mechanism
for catamarans? Any heel that would lift a hull would release the
sheets. Wouldn't have to be complicated.

--Vic- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was wondering the same exact thing, a weak link on the sheets.

Joe

* Vic Smith wrote, On 4/16/2007 7:44 PM:
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:22:00 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote:

It got hit by a squall. That's what a couple different reports have
said. Just google "catamaran rescue".

Yeah, but just this week numerous news reports reported that the 40'
fiberglass sailboat Aqua Mist flew apart in rough water off the coast
of Florida. Turns out the Aqua Mist is (was) a 42' customized
Uniflite sportfisher.


It was a very suspicious situation - they claimed the boat was worth
$300K, about triple its real value.

....
Sounds right, though I've read a strong beam wind also pushes the cat
sideways. I guess that depends on the hulls resistance to the water
due to load and draft and how strong a wind overcomes that.
Has anybody considered an automatic sheet releasing mechanism
for catamarans? Any heel that would lift a hull would release the
sheets. Wouldn't have to be complicated.

My old boat was a Nonsuch. The unstayed mast was flexible, so when a
gust hit, the tip flexed off and shed the force.

I may be wrong, but I think that some cats are designed with rigging
sized to fail before pulling the boat over. (Or maybe that was just a
hare-brained scheme I heard here ...)

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:31:49 -0400, Jeff wrote:

* Vic Smith wrote, On 4/16/2007 7:44 PM:

...
Sounds right, though I've read a strong beam wind also pushes the cat
sideways. I guess that depends on the hulls resistance to the water
due to load and draft and how strong a wind overcomes that.
Has anybody considered an automatic sheet releasing mechanism
for catamarans? Any heel that would lift a hull would release the
sheets. Wouldn't have to be complicated.

My old boat was a Nonsuch. The unstayed mast was flexible, so when a
gust hit, the tip flexed off and shed the force.

I may be wrong, but I think that some cats are designed with rigging
sized to fail before pulling the boat over. (Or maybe that was just a
hare-brained scheme I heard here ...)

You would think that if a urinal can be taught to know when you're
****ing, then a cat can be taught to know when it's flipping.
If the sheets are run through a smart gripping device, that device
would let loose when a hull leaves the water.
Maybe some sort of sensor or float in each hull.
The heel idea with a simple mechanical level sensing device
might not work because even cats can roll heavily.
Anyway, sounds like another maintenance item, and maybe not
worth having if it reduces solid seaman-like attention.
They say anti-lock brakes just make people tail-gate more.
Beats me.

--Vic

--Vic

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:52:49 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

If the sheets are run through a smart gripping device, that device
would let loose when a hull leaves the water.

I have always regarded my hand and brain as a "smart gripping device"
but I can tell you from personal experience that they are not always
smart (or quick) enough. There is a certain momentum to a lifted gust
that will just have its way with you once in awhile.

If nothing else the friction and leverage of a multipart mainsheet
tackle will do you in.

On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 20:58:52 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:52:49 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

If the sheets are run through a smart gripping device, that device
would let loose when a hull leaves the water.

I have always regarded my hand and brain as a "smart gripping device"
but I can tell you from personal experience that they are not always
smart (or quick) enough. There is a certain momentum to a lifted gust
that will just have its way with you once in awhile.

If nothing else the friction and leverage of a multipart mainsheet
tackle will do you in.

I suppose if it were practical somebody would have done it.
Since my sailing experience has mostly been cranking winches,
I defer to the old hands.
But I'm still looking for cruising cat capsizes, and the circumstances
behind them, because I *am* interested in cats.
I've googled quite a bit looking for sail/cruiser/cat capsizes and
they were all flying a hull or otherwise had a racing mentality push
with regard to wind. Not sure if any were even moderately loaded
cruisers
This one that started the thread is the only one I've seen where a
non-racer, non-charter/vacationer flipped his. The capt'n is my age
too. I'm highly interested in what happened.

--Vic