* Paul wrote, On 4/9/2007 4:59 AM:
....

I beleive their now about $1500 and not very big at all.

So what is the prognosis for the typical defib parient? Prior to last
summer's trip from California to Hawaii and back, I discussed heart attack
care with a doctor, and he wasn't too optimistic. He told me that unless
the patient could receive prompt follow-up treatment, the odds of a
successful recovery were pretty bad. Since we were at worst many days away
from outside medical help, I didn't pursue the defib unit (and some of the
crew were old enough that it might have been warranted).

Any opinions?


Funny, I got the opposite advice. My doctor said that since we do
almost entirely coastal cruising, we wouldn't be so far from help that
it would make a difference. I don't know if he didn't appreciate how
long it might take to get help to even a mooring, or if he thought it
would give a false sense of security that might dis-incentivate
proper exercise, of if they didn't work at all.

The cost is falling - the small Phillips units are about $1200, but
the discount rate on ebay seems to be $950. Unfortunately, my health
insurance is so expensive, I can't afford it.

As for training, there isn't much to it, but it would be appropriate
to take a one day first aid/cpr class with the Red Cross, etc. This
does include an hour or so on the proper use of the gadget - probably
worthwhile if you ever had to use one.

"Paul" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Apr 2007 19:26:16 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

How many of you cruisers carry an automatic defibrillator onboard as
part of your emergency medical supplies?

I've heard of a few but I'm not yet among them. How much training is
required to use them correctly, and how large are they?

Virtually no training is actually required, as they "talk" you though
using it on someone. It won't shock the person unless it determines it's
needed. There is some minor danger if you're touching the person, e.g.,
you don't listen to the warning to stand clear.

You can take a CPR class throught the RX that gives you the
certification, but here in Cal (possibly elsewhere) the Good Samaritan
laws protect people who use them.

I beleive their now about $1500 and not very big at all.

So what is the prognosis for the typical defib parient? Prior to last
summer's trip from California to Hawaii and back, I discussed heart attack
care with a doctor, and he wasn't too optimistic. He told me that unless
the patient could receive prompt follow-up treatment, the odds of a
successful recovery were pretty bad. Since we were at worst many days
away from outside medical help, I didn't pursue the defib unit (and some
of the crew were old enough that it might have been warranted).

Any opinions?

-Paul



That's my understanding also. They have them on planes, with the expectation
that they'll be landing soon. I think it would be better than nothing, and
it might save someone's life. Without it the odds aren't that great either.
g


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"Paul" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Apr 2007 19:26:16 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

How many of you cruisers carry an automatic defibrillator onboard as
part of your emergency medical supplies?

I've heard of a few but I'm not yet among them. How much training is
required to use them correctly, and how large are they?

Virtually no training is actually required, as they "talk" you though
using it on someone. It won't shock the person unless it determines it's
needed. There is some minor danger if you're touching the person, e.g.,
you don't listen to the warning to stand clear.

You can take a CPR class throught the RX that gives you the
certification, but here in Cal (possibly elsewhere) the Good Samaritan
laws protect people who use them.

I beleive their now about $1500 and not very big at all.

So what is the prognosis for the typical defib parient? Prior to last
summer's trip from California to Hawaii and back, I discussed heart
attack care with a doctor, and he wasn't too optimistic. He told me that
unless the patient could receive prompt follow-up treatment, the odds of
a successful recovery were pretty bad. Since we were at worst many days
away from outside medical help, I didn't pursue the defib unit (and some
of the crew were old enough that it might have been warranted).

Any opinions?

-Paul



That's my understanding also. They have them on planes, with the
expectation that they'll be landing soon. I think it would be better than
nothing, and it might save someone's life. Without it the odds aren't that
great either. g

When I was in the volunteer fire dept, we had the typical "first-responder"
training in CPR, and the percentages weren't that great, even with prompt
follow-up. I suppose there are many conditions that could trigger an event
requiring defib or CPR, and some of these cases may respond better than
others.

And, as you say, at least the odds improve with defib, vs not having it.
Still, that philosophy applies to most of our safety gear, and at some point
you just can't carry any more stuff "just in case". You have to prioritize.
So far, the defib system hasn't made the cut for me, but that could change
(especially as I get older!). Then again, the doctor I spoke with was using
phrases like "vegetative state", so I suppose more research is in order.

-Paul

"Paul" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"Paul" wrote in message
...

"Capt. JG" wrote in message
...
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Apr 2007 19:26:16 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:

How many of you cruisers carry an automatic defibrillator onboard as
part of your emergency medical supplies?

I've heard of a few but I'm not yet among them. How much training is
required to use them correctly, and how large are they?

Virtually no training is actually required, as they "talk" you though
using it on someone. It won't shock the person unless it determines
it's needed. There is some minor danger if you're touching the person,
e.g., you don't listen to the warning to stand clear.

You can take a CPR class throught the RX that gives you the
certification, but here in Cal (possibly elsewhere) the Good Samaritan
laws protect people who use them.

I beleive their now about $1500 and not very big at all.

So what is the prognosis for the typical defib parient? Prior to last
summer's trip from California to Hawaii and back, I discussed heart
attack care with a doctor, and he wasn't too optimistic. He told me
that unless the patient could receive prompt follow-up treatment, the
odds of a successful recovery were pretty bad. Since we were at worst
many days away from outside medical help, I didn't pursue the defib unit
(and some of the crew were old enough that it might have been
warranted).

Any opinions?

-Paul



That's my understanding also. They have them on planes, with the
expectation that they'll be landing soon. I think it would be better than
nothing, and it might save someone's life. Without it the odds aren't
that great either. g

When I was in the volunteer fire dept, we had the typical
"first-responder" training in CPR, and the percentages weren't that great,
even with prompt follow-up. I suppose there are many conditions that
could trigger an event requiring defib or CPR, and some of these cases may
respond better than others.

And, as you say, at least the odds improve with defib, vs not having it.
Still, that philosophy applies to most of our safety gear, and at some
point you just can't carry any more stuff "just in case". You have to
prioritize. So far, the defib system hasn't made the cut for me, but that
could change (especially as I get older!). Then again, the doctor I spoke
with was using phrases like "vegetative state", so I suppose more research
is in order.

-Paul



I've been watching the prices, but even $950 is just too high. I'm certified
in their use, but I just can't justify it, since 90% of the sailing I do is
within easy response range. I ask about known medical conditions before we
leave the dock, but of course anything can happen.

I don't own a sat phone either, but I've been keeping track of those prices
also. If I were going offshore for an extended period or to a relatively
remote location (should have rented one while sailing in Baja, I suppose,
but didn't), then I'd consider buying one.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 9 Apr 2007 11:23:08 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:



I've been watching the prices, but even $950 is just too high. I'm
certified
in their use, but I just can't justify it, since 90% of the sailing I do
is
within easy response range. I ask about known medical conditions before we
leave the dock, but of course anything can happen.

As you say, some of these medical aids are a judgement call. There
was a great story around here (it was in Deerfield, IL) in 2001 where
a healthy 13 year old Little Leaguer got hit in the chest by a liner
and it stopped his heart. Two physicians watching the game couldn't
get it started and the kid was a goner. In the meantime a distraught
woman walked away from the scene and saw a Deerfield police car
cruising nearby, and she waved him down. The department had just
bought a defib and it happened to be in that car.
The cop quickly got the boy's heart going, and he fully recovered.
One of those miracles, it seems.

--Vic


I remember that story... it really is a judgement call. Assuming you have a
limited amount of money, it seems like it would be better spent on simple
upgrades/fixes like maintaining thru-hulls, replacing rigging. I'm betting a
cost/benefit analysis would show that.


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

On Mon, 9 Apr 2007 11:23:08 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:



I've been watching the prices, but even $950 is just too high. I'm certified
in their use, but I just can't justify it, since 90% of the sailing I do is
within easy response range. I ask about known medical conditions before we
leave the dock, but of course anything can happen.

As you say, some of these medical aids are a judgement call. There
was a great story around here (it was in Deerfield, IL) in 2001 where
a healthy 13 year old Little Leaguer got hit in the chest by a liner
and it stopped his heart. Two physicians watching the game couldn't
get it started and the kid was a goner. In the meantime a distraught
woman walked away from the scene and saw a Deerfield police car
cruising nearby, and she waved him down. The department had just
bought a defib and it happened to be in that car.
The cop quickly got the boy's heart going, and he fully recovered.
One of those miracles, it seems.

--Vic

"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Apr 2007 22:20:31 GMT, wrote:

So legal aspect will have to be cleared up accordingly. Otherwise some
good
Samaritans could be suit for wrong doing.

I'm not exactly sure where you live, but states have Good Samaritan
laws. As long as you help in good faith, and the simple fact that you
help is evidence of good faith, you are in the clear. In most states,
any legal filing related to emergency medical treatment has to pass a
medical review board and as long as it was in good faith, they never
pass it through to the courts. If you have emergency medical
training, the only criteria is that you don't exceed the limits of the
training - like giving a cardiac patient a drug or start an IV if your
training is at the First Responder or EMT-Basic level.

I have personal experience with this so I'm fairly familiar with the
process. :)


Having a defib unit aboard may negate the Good Samaritan considerations and
legally hold you, the boat owner, to training and certification on the use
and care of the unit.

Best to consult the experts on this, including your lawyer. It is indeed a
sad world we live in that we have to go to those extremes to protect our
self from losing everything we own when trying to save someone's life.

On Mon, 9 Apr 2007 14:46:10 -0700, "Capt. JG"
wrote:

I remember that story... it really is a judgement call. Assuming you have a
limited amount of money, it seems like it would be better spent on simple
upgrades/fixes like maintaining thru-hulls, replacing rigging. I'm betting a
cost/benefit analysis would show that.

Depends on your circumstances. If the boat is already in decent shape
but there is someone in your family or crew with a cardiac risk, the
defib might make a lot of sense. I knew a guy who died from a heart
attack on his boat while sailing the Chesapeake. He had already had
bypass surgery once and was a prime candidate for future trouble.
Money was not a big concern for him, having quite a few serious
patents to his credit.

If he'd had a defib aboard, and his girl friend knew how to use it,
things might have turned out differently.

On Apr 8, 4:20 pm, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 08 Apr 2007 19:26:16 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing

wrote:
How many of you cruisers carry an automatic defibrillator onboard as
part of your emergency medical supplies?

I've heard of a few but I'm not yet among them. How much training is
required to use them correctly, and how large are they?

I spent 20 years as an EMT (including wilderness EMT) and toward the
end, we travelled routinely with an AED, if not the full-fledged
defibrilator. Very little training is required to operate an AED, and
what there is focuses on setting up and attaching the machine. The
rest is truly automatic.

Will it help? Based upon what I read, it is likely to be the only
thing that works. An immediate shock with an AED is likely to convert
any rhythm that is capable of being converted, at which point CPR
compressions will keep someone alive until advanced care arrives. CPR
alone is ineffective in the absence of defibrilation; they have done
studies and keep changing the protocols and just eliminated the
breaths so that you just compress the heart to continue circulation.
Unless you are able to defibrilate the heart, forget it.

With helicopter rescue now routinely available, the AED/CPR
combination is a good option for someone within 30 to 60 minutes of
advanced care (once you get loaded into the helicopter, the level of
care is really close to that available in many ER's). Without the
AED, that window of opportunity closes to about 15 minutes and maybe
as little as 6 (the time frame we normally aimed for).

What model? The least expensive is as good as the most expensive.
While there are models with lots of bells and whistles, they don't
provide any option that is worth the expense. We purposely bought
simple models for police cars and public places because the options
simply confused the operators. Hook it up and let it do its thing.

I am also a lawyer and spent 7 years as the legal representative on
the Maine State EMS board. Don't worry about liability. The AED
won't shock where none is required. Call EMS and use your best
judgment.

Steve Hayes
Maine