Sold the Scout - new twist
 

On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 11:57:02 -0400,
wrote:


I'm not an attorney, ether, so you can value this accordingly, but
there is a BIG difference between something being stolen and something
handed over willingly.

Me either, but something that happened to neighbor has ensured I
always insist on legally transferring my auto titles.
The neighbor asked me to be with her when she sold her old Nissan for
about 400 bucks. It was advertised locally. All I did was translate
a little and make sure she had her plates.
She signed and handed over her title to the guy and he drove away.
That night he was drunk and broadsided a Caddie with the Nissan,
totaling both cars and injuring the Caddie driver.
The guy who bought her car was arrested at the scene, but soon fled to
Mexico. I don't know if he was even properly identified.
Illinois still had the car registered to my neighbor, so the Caddie's
insurance company and the state came after her.
I had to depose before the State Attorney to get her clear.
The SA told me that if I had not witnessed the sale, my neighbor
would be up the creek. He strongly recommended doing a proper title
transfer when selling a car.
Since then I have insisted on going to a notary whenever buying or
selling a car. Currency exchanges are common in Illinois and the
title change is notarized and sent to the state for a couple bucks
fee.
A lot easier than standing in line at a state agency office.
I've bought 4 cars from private owners since then and tell them this
story when buying. They have all agreed to come with me to the
currency exchange to get it legal, except one. He just said he
was busy and he trusted me to do it pronto, which I did.
No advice for here, just what I do in Illinois with cars.

--Vic

Sold the Scout - new twist
 

"Chuck Gould" wrote in message
oups.com...

Tempting as it might be to "go after" this guy, remember that he
showed up as promised, paid the asking price without quibbling, and
that his check ultimately proved to be good at the bank. He did
business on the seller's terms all the way, and performed as promised.
It's no crime simply to be a dealer.

Good point. I (and others) am only speculating that he is a dealer. He
may not be, and is simply attempting to "flip" the boat to make some money.
Dealers *do* advertise on Craigslist, but most are private sellers.

The check was a cashier's check from a local bank which we verified to be
authentic. It also means there is a record of the transaction that supports
my contention that the boat was sold.

Good lesson though. I've always trusted people for face value unless proven
otherwise. I'll be more careful in the future.

Eisboch

Sold the Scout - new twist
 

On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:09:28 GMT, "NOYB" wrote:

Isn't documentation akin to title insurance?

Not exactly. Documentation establishes the chain of ownership and
establishes that there are no unfullfilled *prior* liens. I have
personal knowledge of a case however where a governmental authority
threatened a lien and vessel seizure because of an alleged tax
liability incurred by a prior owner ten years in the past.

Supposedly all they have to do is notify the Coast Guard to effect the
seizure. The boat in question was bought with the usual contractural
assurances of clean title, no liens, judgements, etc plus an assurance
to defend against any such action. That is all meaningless however
unless you can get your legal hands on the prior owner(s), and
meanwhile the boat could be under seizure and tied up in litigation
until the mess is resolved.

Fortunately in this case, the governmental agency in question came to
their senses and decided not to pursue it further but it was very
messy and tense while it lasted.

One possible way to avoid or minimize such a risk is to document
offshore which breaks the USCG chain of title and makes the boat very
difficult to trace through its doc number.

Sold the Scout - new twist
 

On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:45:05 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

Good lesson though. I've always trusted people for face value unless proven
otherwise. I'll be more careful in the future.

At the very least I recommend a notarized bill of sale and a copy of
the buyers drivers license.

Sold the Scout - new twist
 

"RJSmithers" wrote in message
...
JimH wrote:
"Eisboch" wrote in message
. ..
"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 03:15:26 -0400, Eisboch penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:


If he's a dealer, which I now suspect, he didn't do anything illegal.
There seems to be way more cloak-and dagger stuff going on here for
something not to be borderline crooked, if not entirely illegal.

Trust me, as a buyer, I got on the wrong end of one of these deals and
you don't want to go there.....

If he sells the boat (with whatever representations he deems
appropriate) and pulls a disappearing act, the two signers of the
paperwork are likely left to duke it out..... You and Whomever....


Good point. I am not overly concerned because fundamentally I know the
boat and engine are fine. But, your point is well taken.

Eisboch


Let's say the brokers friend asks if he could use the boat for a day or
two and is involved in a fatal accident. Open your wallet because you
are legally the owner of that boat.

You should give your attorney a call on this.
Richard,

Whenever non-attorney's give you free advice, realize it is worth exactly
what you have paid for it.

You would not be responsible for any damages or have any more liability
than if someone stole your car and had an accident, even if it was a fatal
accident.




Not true. Friend in Florida in the 1970's had his car stolen. Georgia
police gave chase to the stolen car and riddled it with about 150 bullet
holes. Car crashed and took out 150' of highway chain railing. Friends
insurance company had to pay for the damage. He owed the car, so is liable
for any damage it causes. Said it would have been cheaper for the insurance
company to have just given the car to the thief. Locally a few years ago, a
person sold a motorcycle and filled out the change of ownership statement
that is sent to the state DMV. The DMV misplaced the form. A couple of
weeks later, the buyer crashed the bike and killed both himself and a girl
on the back. The girls parents were going to get millions from the seller,
as they could not prove they sold the bike. Luckily for the seller, someone
at the DMV found the form as they were sending a bunch of old stuff to be
burned.

Sold the Scout - new twist
 

Calif Bill wrote:
"RJSmithers" wrote in message
...
JimH wrote:
"Eisboch" wrote in message
. ..
"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 03:15:26 -0400, Eisboch penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:


If he's a dealer, which I now suspect, he didn't do anything illegal.
There seems to be way more cloak-and dagger stuff going on here for
something not to be borderline crooked, if not entirely illegal.

Trust me, as a buyer, I got on the wrong end of one of these deals and
you don't want to go there.....

If he sells the boat (with whatever representations he deems
appropriate) and pulls a disappearing act, the two signers of the
paperwork are likely left to duke it out..... You and Whomever....

Good point. I am not overly concerned because fundamentally I know the
boat and engine are fine. But, your point is well taken.

Eisboch

Let's say the brokers friend asks if he could use the boat for a day or
two and is involved in a fatal accident. Open your wallet because you
are legally the owner of that boat.

You should give your attorney a call on this.
Richard,

Whenever non-attorney's give you free advice, realize it is worth exactly
what you have paid for it.

You would not be responsible for any damages or have any more liability
than if someone stole your car and had an accident, even if it was a fatal
accident.




Not true. Friend in Florida in the 1970's had his car stolen. Georgia
police gave chase to the stolen car and riddled it with about 150 bullet
holes. Car crashed and took out 150' of highway chain railing. Friends
insurance company had to pay for the damage. He owed the car, so is liable
for any damage it causes. Said it would have been cheaper for the insurance
company to have just given the car to the thief. Locally a few years ago, a
person sold a motorcycle and filled out the change of ownership statement
that is sent to the state DMV. The DMV misplaced the form. A couple of
weeks later, the buyer crashed the bike and killed both himself and a girl
on the back. The girls parents were going to get millions from the seller,
as they could not prove they sold the bike. Luckily for the seller, someone
at the DMV found the form as they were sending a bunch of old stuff to be
burned.



Bill,

While this story has all the ear marks of a great urban legend, I will
assume you knew all the information from your friend. If that is true,
they obviously have changed the law since the 1970's

http://insurance.freeadvice.com/insu...02_170_601.htm

When I have sold cars and boats to individuals I have always drawn up
contracts of sale and contacted the state and DNR concerning the sale.
I was not really worried the liability, but I wanted to make sure I was
taken off the tax records and the new party was responsible for the taxes.

Since Richard is a smart guy, I would assume he had a contract for the
sale signed by all parties. While this is not as easy as filing a
record of the sale with the state and/or DNR, it could be used in a
court to show proof that you no longer owned the car/boat.

Chuck's excellent advice was one of someone who was in the business and
is used to covering all aspects of liability. I would make sure I
followed his advice on future sales.

Here is a great link reviewing the details on how to handle car/boat
sales by individuals.

http://siy.cars.com/siy/qsg/tipsClose.jsp?aff=pe

Sold the Scout - new twist
 

"RJSmithers" wrote in message
...


Since Richard is a smart guy, I would assume he had a contract for the
sale signed by all parties. While this is not as easy as filing a record
of the sale with the state and/or DNR, it could be used in a court to show
proof that you no longer owned the car/boat.



Richard's not as smart as you think.

A few years back MA became a full title state, requiring titles for all car,
boat, truck and trailer transactions regardless of vehicle age. Before then
you could sell some vehicles, particularly cars 10 years or older, without a
title. All you needed was a bill of sale. (I think you can still sell
and/or register small trailers under 3500 GVW without the requirement for a
title.)

Since the new title laws went into force, a bill of sale is no longer
required to register the vehicle. In fact, if you present one to the DMV,
they hand it back to you saying, "We don't need this". As a result, many
private sales are done without a bill of sale ... just an assignment of the
title.

My experience has taught me to do a bill of sale anyway ... two copies ...
one for the buyer and the other for the seller. Also ... I'll never again
turn over the title to a private buyer without filling in the new owner's
name regardless of the buyer's request. (not required for a dealer
transaction, however).

As I posted before ... it has worked out ok. I've talked to the buyer and
we are resolving the issue. But, I got a little bit smarter.

Eisboch

Sold the Scout - new twist
 

Eisboch wrote:
"RJSmithers" wrote in message
...


Since Richard is a smart guy, I would assume he had a contract for the
sale signed by all parties. While this is not as easy as filing a record
of the sale with the state and/or DNR, it could be used in a court to show
proof that you no longer owned the car/boat.



Richard's not as smart as you think.

A few years back MA became a full title state, requiring titles for all car,
boat, truck and trailer transactions regardless of vehicle age. Before then
you could sell some vehicles, particularly cars 10 years or older, without a
title. All you needed was a bill of sale. (I think you can still sell
and/or register small trailers under 3500 GVW without the requirement for a
title.)

Since the new title laws went into force, a bill of sale is no longer
required to register the vehicle. In fact, if you present one to the DMV,
they hand it back to you saying, "We don't need this". As a result, many
private sales are done without a bill of sale ... just an assignment of the
title.

My experience has taught me to do a bill of sale anyway ... two copies ...
one for the buyer and the other for the seller. Also ... I'll never again
turn over the title to a private buyer without filling in the new owner's
name regardless of the buyer's request. (not required for a dealer
transaction, however).

As I posted before ... it has worked out ok. I've talked to the buyer and
we are resolving the issue. But, I got a little bit smarter.

Eisboch



Richard,
I am glad it worked out for you. Hopefully the info below can be used
by anyone else buying or selling a boat/car. I not only use the
contract of sale to send to the state/dnr, but also a "CYA" stating
exactly what our arrangements are, including that the sale is "AS IS"
without any warranty. The buyer can still hold you responsible for
known defects you deliberately hide from him, but it would prevent him
from saying you gave him a verbal warranty for "X" of days.

Since I have sold both cars and boats with outstanding loans on them, I
always include that it is my responsibility to pay off the loan and
provide a clean title to the buyer.

Here is a great link showing the info required on a bill of sale for all
50 states. I have used the same basic form for boat sales.

http://www.dmv.org/bill-of-sale.php

For anyone selling their own boat/car here is a great web site to print
out a free bill of sale.

http://www.lawdepot.com/contracts/bill-of-sale/

Sold the Scout - new twist
 

"RJSmithers" wrote in message
...


Since Richard is a smart guy, I would assume he had a contract for the
sale signed by all parties. While this is not as easy as filing a record
of the sale with the state and/or DNR, it could be used in a court to
show proof that you no longer owned the car/boat.



"Whenever non-attorney's give you free advice, realize it is worth exactly
what you have paid for it."
- RJSmithers, rec.boats, 3/30/07

Sold the Scout - new twist
 

JimH wrote:
"RJSmithers" wrote in message
...


Since Richard is a smart guy, I would assume he had a contract for the
sale signed by all parties. While this is not as easy as filing a record
of the sale with the state and/or DNR, it could be used in a court to
show proof that you no longer owned the car/boat.



"Whenever non-attorney's give you free advice, realize it is worth exactly
what you have paid for it."
- RJSmithers, rec.boats, 3/30/07



JimH,
This is definitely excellent advice.