On 12 Mar 2007 10:09:02 -0700, "Chuck Gould"
wrote:

On Mar 12, 3:42?am, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On 12 Mar 2007 00:38:59 -0700, "brian" wrote:

i have just purchased this boat for 10,000.00 from a privet party.

You bought a boat from a shrub? :)

You've over paid for the boat by about $4,000 even if it's in perfect,
mint showroom condition. he book says it's worth $6,000 in average
condition with average cosmetics. ractically, looking at the various
buying guides quickly, they are averaging $5200 ask price in good
condition in my area - if 9ou can find one that is.


You could make a really decent living buying up all the perfect, mint,
showroom condition 2455 Bayliners you can find for $6000. Here is an
abbreviated list of boats currently available (from Boats.com). I'll
bet most are not in bristol shape, but you'll see the pricing trend:

Low/Average retail via NADA.

'84 24 Ciera (Huron, OH) $8900

$4260/4280

'87 24 Ceira (Rogers, MN) $8995

$5188/$5870

'88 245 (Egg Harbor, NJ) $7995

$5530/6270

87 2450 (Aurora, IN) $9950

$5180/5870

'87 2450 Ciera (St Clair Shores, MI) $9999

Same

'87 2450 (Washington, NV) $8990

Same

88 2450 Ciera (Everett, WA) $12995

$5530/6270

'89 2455 (South Haven, MI) $9900

$6150/6980

'87 2455 (New Windsor, NY) $14900 (?!)

$5180/8870

89 2455 (Verplank, NY) $9200

$6150/6980


And so on.

The list goes on and on, but this covers the first three pages in the
exact order that the boats appeard. Out of 18 boats, only three are
listed under $7k, ( and none listed at $6k or less) while 10 are
listed at effectively $10,000 or more.

Well, I don't know how you got 18 boats because I only got eleven and
of the eleven, six were appropriately priced. From Boats.com.

It would be pretty difficult to make a case that $6000 is the
appropriate selling price for this boat in bristol condition. Of
course there will be a difference between asking and selling price,
but not typically 40-50%.

Them's the figures. When was the last time you sold a '88/89 Bayliner
even in Bristol condition for more than it's retail value?

Being totally fair, I called three marine dealers that I know and had
them check their books against NADA - dead nuts on the money.

I guess you should have stayed in the boat sales business rather than
the magazine business if you think you can get that for a Bayliner of
that age regardless of condition.

By the way, the ones I saw that were in the "ridiculous" category, one
had a new engine with less than 100 hours. And two of the more higher
priced ones were "price reduced!!!".

There's nothing wrong with maximizing your "return", but there is
unrealistic.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

The boat in question in the original post is worth somewhere between
$ZERO and the price the poster is paying for it.

Duh.

I agree that he needs to spend a little money on a surveyor now rather
than a ton of money on unexpected repairs a couple of months from now.

Well slap my ass and call me Sally - we agree on something. :)

On Mar 12, 11:28�am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On 12 Mar 2007 10:09:02 -0700, "Chuck Gould"





wrote:
On Mar 12, 3:42?am, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On 12 Mar 2007 00:38:59 -0700, "brian" wrote:

i have just purchased this boat for 10,000.00 from a privet party.

You bought a boat from a shrub? :)

You've over paid for the boat by about $4,000 even if it's in perfect,
mint showroom condition. *he book says it's worth $6,000 in average
condition with average cosmetics. *ractically, looking at the various
buying guides quickly, they are averaging $5200 ask price in good
condition in my area - if 9ou can find one that is.

You could make a really decent living buying up all the perfect, mint,
showroom condition 2455 Bayliners you can find for $6000. Here is an
abbreviated list of boats currently available (from Boats.com). I'll
bet most are not in bristol shape, but you'll see the pricing trend:

Low/Average retail via NADA.

'84 24 Ciera (Huron, OH) $8900

$4260/4280

So this guy is double NADA


'87 24 Ceira (Rogers, MN) $8995

$5188/$5870


This guy is 50-70% above NADA


'88 245 (Egg Harbor, NJ) $7995

$5530/6270


This guy is 30-50% over NADA



87 2450 (Aurora, IN) $9950

$5180/5870


More than 50% over NADA



'87 2450 Ciera (St Clair Shores, MI) $9999

Same

'87 2450 (Washington, NV) $8990

Same

88 2450 Ciera (Everett, WA) $12995

$5530/6270

More than double NADA



'89 2455 (South Haven, MI) $9900

$6150/6980


50% or more over NADA


'87 2455 (New Windsor, NY) $14900 (?!)

$5180/8870


way the heck over NADA




89 2455 (Verplank, NY) $9200

$6150/6980

And so on.

The list goes on and on, but this covers the first three pages in the
exact order that the boats appeard. Out of 18 boats, only three are
listed under $7k, ( and none listed at $6k or less) while 10 are
listed at effectively $10,000 or more.

Well, I don't know how you got 18 boats because I only got eleven and
of the eleven, six were appropriately priced. *From Boats.com.


I actually got 64


http://www.boats.com/listing/cache/l...=45&Search.y=9


Almost none were as cheaply priced as NADA suggests they should be.

There are problems associated with using the NADA (National Automobile
Dealers Association) book for boat pricing.

1. Boat pricing is far more regional than auto pricing. If there is a
huge price disparity on (for example) 2002 Toyota Corrolas available
at auction in Texas and the same car available at auction in Oregon,
the car carriers start to roll and things between the cheaper place
and the more expensive and things even out. Seldom happens with boats,
particularly cheap boats. NADA publishes a one-pricebook-fits-all-
regions book.

2. There is no data to support any of the numbers in the NADA boat
book. Nothing. NADA auto books are based on auction results on the
wholesale level, with formulas applied to project retail and average
trade. There are no boat auctions.

3. NADA basic values often strip a boat down to almost nothing except
the hull and the engines, with enormous tables of options to add back
to the base price.

4. NADA books are primarily sold to 1) Brokers, who use them to
justify taking trades in very cheaply. 2) Finance companies, who use
them to demand larger down payments so that "risky" loans
collateralized by boats represent distress sale balances.

And of course the largest problem of all with NADA----- there's no
order blank in the book. If 45 out of 60 sellers of a particular
model are asking 30-100% more than NADA "high retail", there ought to
be a huge landslide of business available to anybody willing to take
the NADA price

Bringing us back to the original point, I think it may presume too
much to tell the original poster that he overpaid by 40%, and probably
more unless the boat is in bristol condition. Yes, your NADA book
supports that- but the fact that there are almost no boats for sale at
that price level and most are substantially more carries more weight
than what NADA says the market "should be".







I agree that he needs to spend a little money on a surveyor now rather
than a ton of money on unexpected repairs a couple of months from now.

Well slap my ass and call me Sally - we agree on something. *:)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On 12 Mar 2007 12:54:54 -0700, "Chuck Gould"
wrote:

Bringing us back to the original point, I think it may presume too
much to tell the original poster that he overpaid by 40%, and probably
more unless the boat is in bristol condition. Yes, your NADA book
supports that- but the fact that there are almost no boats for sale at
that price level and most are substantially more carries more weight
than what NADA says the market "should be".

I take your points - all good ones.

However that does not negate the obvious fact that NADA book pricing
for both trade in and retail are the values used when setting boat
prices no matter where you live.

That's a fact. There may be individual market fluctuations that make
a boat's value go up or down, but on average, NADA is the book used
and thus reflects the relative value of the vessel.

The only other way to price a boat is via BUC and when I asked, the
BUC value was about 5/8% higher than NADA.

For instance:

In my zip code, my 2000 Ranger with 2000 FICHT with trailer has a low
value of 14,700 and a average value of 16,800.

For Charleston, SC, it's exactly the same number.

For Fort Lauderdale, FL it's about $500 higher on both ends.

Based on that, I would think that the boat is worth about that and
based on what I'm seeing, it is.

Now with 16,000 of new engine, to me it's worth a lot more, but I
seriously doubt that I'd get even close to 32000 if I decided to sell
it.

By the way, how did you get that search report? I can't get more than
11 boats listed.

On Mar 12, 1:33�pm, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On 12 Mar 2007 12:54:54 -0700, "Chuck Gould"

wrote:
Bringing us back to the original point, I think it may presume too
much to tell the original poster that he overpaid by 40%, and probably
more unless the boat is in bristol condition. Yes, your NADA book
supports that- but the fact that there are almost no boats for sale at
that price level and most are substantially more carries more weight
than what NADA says the market "should be".

I take your points - all good ones.

However that does not negate the obvious fact that NADA book pricing
for both trade in and retail are the values used when setting boat
prices no matter where you live.


NADA is routinely disregarded by most boat dealers and brokers, except
when
trying to take a trade at a very low price.

NADA is often thought of as "the bible" of boat pricing, because it is
presumed to be a mirror. It's not a mirror. There is not enough data
to support the numbers and in many cases there is no data at all. If
the NADA were an up-to-date *reflection* of the market, that would
make it pretty useful. However, it's all formula driven, rather than
sales history driven, and the assumptions are that all boats
depreciate at the same rate and nearly as fast as an automobile.
(NADA).

If people are routinely buying and selling boats for prices far above
or far below the NADA guidebook, it's that market activity- rather
than NADA's guesstimate.




That's a fact. *There may be individual market fluctuations that make
a boat's value go up or down, but on average, NADA is the book used
and thus reflects the relative value of the vessel.


To pick a nit: the NADA only reports the NADA "value" of the vessel.
Because NADA does not survey actual transaction prices, or even
advertised prices, it has very little to do with a functioning market
value. When NADA offers to buy or is in a position to sell boats at
the values they publish then they can be considered part of the
market.

If NADA were first a mirror, it could be used as a bible. Attempting
to be a bible without being a mirror makes it of very little value, as
there is nothing of any substance behind the alleged authority.





The only other way to price a boat is via BUC and when I asked, the
BUC value was about 5/8% higher than NADA.

For instance:

In my zip code, my 2000 Ranger with 2000 FICHT with trailer has a low
value of 14,700 and a average value of 16,800.

For Charleston, SC, it's exactly the same number.

For Fort Lauderdale, FL it's about $500 higher on both ends.

Based on that, I would think that the boat is worth about that and
based on what I'm seeing, it is.

Now with 16,000 of new engine, to me it's worth a lot more, but I
seriously doubt that I'd get even close to 32000 if I decided to sell
it.

By the way, how did you get that search report? *I can't get more than
11 boats listed.


1. go to advanced serch
2. plug in Bayliner
3. plug in 24-25 feet (some people will report at 2455 as a 24-footer,
others as a 25 footer)
4. plug in a range of model years beginning 1 year before the boat in
question and ending a year after. With older boats, 1 year one
direction or another makes almost no difference in value- but it
brings up a lot more boats to help establish a trend. On nearly new
boats, you want to stick to the specific model year.
5. plug in "no-limit" in distance from your zipcode to see the entire
US.

On Mar 12, 1:33�pm, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On 12 Mar 2007 12:54:54 -0700, "Chuck Gould"

wrote:
Bringing us back to the original point, I think it may presume too
much to tell the original poster that he overpaid by 40%, and probably
more unless the boat is in bristol condition. Yes, your NADA book
supports that- but the fact that there are almost no boats for sale at
that price level and most are substantially more carries more weight
than what NADA says the market "should be".

I take your points - all good ones.

However that does not negate the obvious fact that NADA book pricing
for both trade in and retail are the values used when setting boat
prices no matter where you live.

That's a fact. *There may be individual market fluctuations that make
a boat's value go up or down, but on average, NADA is the book used
and thus reflects the relative value of the vessel.

The only other way to price a boat is via BUC and when I asked, the
BUC value was about 5/8% higher than NADA.

For instance:

In my zip code, my 2000 Ranger with 2000 FICHT with trailer has a low
value of 14,700 and a average value of 16,800.

For Charleston, SC, it's exactly the same number.

For Fort Lauderdale, FL it's about $500 higher on both ends.

Based on that, I would think that the boat is worth about that and
based on what I'm seeing, it is.

Now with 16,000 of new engine, to me it's worth a lot more, but I
seriously doubt that I'd get even close to 32000 if I decided to sell
it.

By the way, how did you get that search report? *I can't get more than
11 boats listed.

I should have included with my other reply:

There are resources available to professional brokers and dealers that
allow a closer look at the actual *selling prices* of used boats. One
such resource is
the boatwizard program available to subscribing brokers through
yachtworld.com. There are limitations to these sites, as well, but
they are better than NADA. On the sites I'm referring to, brokers
removing sold boats from the yachtworld inventory have the option of
reporting the actual selling price. To be sure, there are some brokers
who are either the world's most effective negotiators or who aren't
being honest- as every one of their listings is reported sold at full
asking price. (Makes a great, and probably greatly dishonest, tool to
use when competing with other brokers for listings. "See? List with
me! All of our boats sell for full asking price!") By factoring out
the known story-tellers, it's posible to get a very concise look at
actual market transactions on a specific make and model of boat in a
specific region.

The prices at which boats are actually selling determine the true
market value.

On 12 Mar 2007 14:34:02 -0700, "Chuck Gould"
wrote:

The prices at which boats are actually selling determine the true
market value.

Exactly.

And I guarentee you they aren't selling at $10/12000.

On Mar 12, 3:10?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On 12 Mar 2007 14:34:02 -0700, "Chuck Gould"

wrote:
The prices at which boats are actually selling determine the true
market value.

Exactly.

And I guarentee you they aren't selling at $10/12000.

That's odd- the original poster in this thread just reported paying
$10,000 for one of these. (And an examination of 64 different boat ads
discloses that $10,000 is a common offering price for this model, with
some examples a few thousand higher and some examples a few thousand
less). Did he overpay by 66% because NADA says he did, or did he shop
around and decide to pay that price based on comparable offerings?
That's the focus of the question.

On 12 Mar 2007 16:33:10 -0700, "Chuck Gould"
wrote:

On Mar 12, 3:10?pm, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On 12 Mar 2007 14:34:02 -0700, "Chuck Gould"

wrote:
The prices at which boats are actually selling determine the true
market value.

Exactly.

And I guarentee you they aren't selling at $10/12000.

That's odd- the original poster in this thread just reported paying
$10,000 for one of these. (And an examination of 64 different boat ads
discloses that $10,000 is a common offering price for this model, with
some examples a few thousand higher and some examples a few thousand
less). Did he overpay by 66% because NADA says he did, or did he shop
around and decide to pay that price based on comparable offerings?
That's the focus of the question.

You obviously know more than anybody here about the subject.

I bow to your expertise.

On Mar 12, 11:28�am, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote:
On 12 Mar 2007 10:09:02 -0700, "Chuck Gould"





wrote:
On Mar 12, 3:42?am, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote:
On 12 Mar 2007 00:38:59 -0700, "brian" wrote:

i have just purchased this boat for 10,000.00 from a privet party.

You bought a boat from a shrub? :)

You've over paid for the boat by about $4,000 even if it's in perfect,
mint showroom condition. *he book says it's worth $6,000 in average
condition with average cosmetics. *ractically, looking at the various
buying guides quickly, they are averaging $5200 ask price in good
condition in my area - if 9ou can find one that is.

You could make a really decent living buying up all the perfect, mint,
showroom condition 2455 Bayliners you can find for $6000. Here is an
abbreviated list of boats currently available (from Boats.com). I'll
bet most are not in bristol shape, but you'll see the pricing trend:

Low/Average retail via NADA.

'84 24 Ciera (Huron, OH) $8900

$4260/4280

So this guy is double NADA


'87 24 Ceira (Rogers, MN) $8995

$5188/$5870


This guy is 50-70% above NADA


'88 245 (Egg Harbor, NJ) $7995

$5530/6270


This guy is 30-50% over NADA



87 2450 (Aurora, IN) $9950

$5180/5870


More than 50% over NADA



'87 2450 Ciera (St Clair Shores, MI) $9999

Same

'87 2450 (Washington, NV) $8990

Same

88 2450 Ciera (Everett, WA) $12995

$5530/6270

More than double NADA



'89 2455 (South Haven, MI) $9900

$6150/6980


50% or more over NADA


'87 2455 (New Windsor, NY) $14900 (?!)

$5180/8870


way the heck over NADA




89 2455 (Verplank, NY) $9200

$6150/6980

And so on.

The list goes on and on, but this covers the first three pages in the
exact order that the boats appeard. Out of 18 boats, only three are
listed under $7k, ( and none listed at $6k or less) while 10 are
listed at effectively $10,000 or more.

Well, I don't know how you got 18 boats because I only got eleven and
of the eleven, six were appropriately priced. *From Boats.com.


I actually got 64


http://www.boats.com/listing/cache/l...=45&Search.y=9


Almost none were as cheaply priced as NADA suggests they should be.

There are problems associated with using the NADA (National Automobile
Dealers Association) book for boat pricing.

1. Boat pricing is far more regional than auto pricing. If there is a
huge price disparity on (for example) 2002 Toyota Corrolas available
at auction in Texas and the same car available at auction in Oregon,
the car carriers start to roll and things between the cheaper place
and the more expensive and things even out. Seldom happens with boats,
particularly cheap boats. NADA publishes a one-pricebook-fits-all-
regions book.

2. There is no data to support any of the numbers in the NADA boat
book. Nothing. NADA auto books are based on auction results on the
wholesale level, with formulas applied to project retail and average
trade. There are no boat auctions.

3. NADA basic values often strip a boat down to almost nothing except
the hull and the engines, with enormous tables of options to add back
to the base price.

4. NADA books are primarily sold to 1) Brokers, who use them to
justify taking trades in very cheaply. 2) Finance companies, who use
them to demand larger down payments so that "risky" loans
collateralized by boats represent distress sale balances.

And of course the largest problem of all with NADA----- there's no
order blank in the book. If 45 out of 60 sellers of a particular
model are asking 30-100% more than NADA "high retail", there ought to
be a huge landslide of business available to anybody willing to take
the NADA price

Bringing us back to the original point, I think it may presume too
much to tell the original poster that he overpaid by 40%, and probably
more unless the boat is in bristol condition. Yes, your NADA book
supports that- but the fact that there are almost no boats for sale at
that price level and most are substantially more carries more weight
than what NADA says the market "should be".







I agree that he needs to spend a little money on a surveyor now rather
than a ton of money on unexpected repairs a couple of months from now.

Well slap my ass and call me Sally - we agree on something. *:)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -