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Chilly Diesel Problems
On Feb 8, 8:33 am, "Eisboch" wrote:
"Eisboch" wrote in message . .. All the above. The answer is blowing in the wind. Actually, it's because the windshield is cold enough to selectively freeze the H20 content of the "antifreeze". If you notice ... the wind does not even have to be blowing in order to freeze a film on the windshield if you use the fluid and wipers before the defroster starts to warm up the windshield. I am focusing on wind chill because in your original post you confused wind chill as being a factor of the temperature of a non-living object. It isn't. Eisboch Actually, I think what I just said is incorrect. The freezing film you see develop is water vapor in the air condensing and freezing on the cold windshield. If you notice, the next squirt of washer fluid melts it, then it occurs again and again until the windshield warms up. Add that the "glass" is actually layered and you have a more interesting problem in that the inside of the glass is warmer than the outside of the glass which causes more condensation in freezing conditions and creates that "frosted" look and more use of that blue/pink stuff. I just did an experiment because I was bored this morning. I took two 12 inch dinner plates, placed one in the garage away from the wind and one in a shady area exposed to the wind. I placed an equal amount of tap water in each plate and waited to see which froze first. The freezing of each took the same amount of time. So, there is the experiment. |
Chilly Diesel Problems
On Feb 8, 7:59 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
"Eisboch" wrote in message . .. "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... What about when it hits the windshield, under those same conditions? Wind will cause an object to lose heat faster ... but will not cool it below the ambient temperature. The evaporation of a liquid is a state change whereby energy is used and heat is given off. Wind chill is a measurement of rapid cooling of living tissue. Eisboch We're going in circles. Stop focusing on the words "wind chill". Focus on this: Assume you're a chemist, and you know for a fact that you personally have correctly created windshield washer fluid that doesn't freeze at (to pick a number) zero F., why does that fluid actually freeze at a higher temperature, say 5 F., when the vehicle is moving and the fluid hits the windshield? Since this phenomenon actually occurs, please base your next response on that reality. Possible responses: - "I don't know". - "Here's why:...." - "I'm posting a non-answer because I have nothing better to do".- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Eisboch has it right - it's condensate that freezes, not the actual washer fluid. Ehen you clear the wind screen with fluid on a cold morning, the frost will disappear until the latent vapor in the atmosphere re-freezes - that continues until two things happen - you warm up the wind screen sufficiently to keep the vapor from freezing or until you are moving fast enough for the vapor to be disappated (sp?) before it has a chance to freeze. |
Chilly Diesel Problems
On Feb 8, 7:24 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in ooglegroups.com... On Feb 8, 6:35 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote: "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in ooglegroups.com... On Feb 7, 9:51 pm, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote: "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in ooglegroups.com... On Feb 7, 4:29 pm, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote: "JimH" wrote in message roups.com... Only living animals are subject to wind chill. Question: If you put a liquid on a surface, and subject both to moving air, will the surface be cooled by the evaporation of the liquid? http://www.umext.maine.edu/emergency/9024.htm Google "Wind Chill facts" if you need more information. ;-) Nice link, but you did not answer the question. Here it is again: Question: If you put a liquid on a surface, and subject both to moving air, will the surface be cooled by the evaporation of the liquid? Depends on the liquid. Non-oily. Now what?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Depends on the temperature. Your pink windshield washer fluid. Temp: -19 degrees F. Vehicle speed: 59 mph. You are wearing a dark green sweater and amber sunglasses.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - No becasue it's enclosed and will only be affected by ambient temperature inside the engine compartment. What about when it hits the windshield, under those same conditions?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Answered further on down. |
Chilly Diesel Problems
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
ups.com... On Feb 8, 7:59 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote: "Eisboch" wrote in message . .. "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... What about when it hits the windshield, under those same conditions? Wind will cause an object to lose heat faster ... but will not cool it below the ambient temperature. The evaporation of a liquid is a state change whereby energy is used and heat is given off. Wind chill is a measurement of rapid cooling of living tissue. Eisboch We're going in circles. Stop focusing on the words "wind chill". Focus on this: Assume you're a chemist, and you know for a fact that you personally have correctly created windshield washer fluid that doesn't freeze at (to pick a number) zero F., why does that fluid actually freeze at a higher temperature, say 5 F., when the vehicle is moving and the fluid hits the windshield? Since this phenomenon actually occurs, please base your next response on that reality. Possible responses: - "I don't know". - "Here's why:...." - "I'm posting a non-answer because I have nothing better to do".- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Eisboch has it right - it's condensate that freezes, not the actual washer fluid. Ehen you clear the wind screen with fluid on a cold morning, the frost will disappear until the latent vapor in the atmosphere re-freezes - that continues until two things happen - you warm up the wind screen sufficiently to keep the vapor from freezing or until you are moving fast enough for the vapor to be disappated (sp?) before it has a chance to freeze. Just e-mailed this question to my kid's physics teacher, who's always up for a challenge. We'll see what he says. The condensate idea sounds plausible, though. |
Chilly Diesel Problems
"Eisboch" wrote in message . .. "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... What about when it hits the windshield, under those same conditions? Wind will cause an object to lose heat faster ... but will not cool it below the ambient temperature. The evaporation of a liquid is a state change whereby energy is used and heat is given off. Wind chill is a measurement of rapid cooling of living tissue. Eisboch Wind Chill. I do not think it refers to living tissue. I think the definition is how much heat transfer would occur in still air vs. Moving air. some low speed of air. -15 degrees with a wind chill of -30, says the same heat loss would occur if the temp was -30 and no wind movement. Nothing to do with evaporation but with the tendency of the air to heat up near the warmer object, slowing down heat transfer. |
Chilly Diesel Problems
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... "Eisboch" wrote in message . .. "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... What about when it hits the windshield, under those same conditions? Wind will cause an object to lose heat faster ... but will not cool it below the ambient temperature. The evaporation of a liquid is a state change whereby energy is used and heat is given off. Wind chill is a measurement of rapid cooling of living tissue. Eisboch We're going in circles. Stop focusing on the words "wind chill". Focus on this: Assume you're a chemist, and you know for a fact that you personally have correctly created windshield washer fluid that doesn't freeze at (to pick a number) zero F., why does that fluid actually freeze at a higher temperature, say 5 F., when the vehicle is moving and the fluid hits the windshield? Since this phenomenon actually occurs, please base your next response on that reality. Possible responses: - "I don't know". - "Here's why:...." - "I'm posting a non-answer because I have nothing better to do". should not freeze at the 5F. But there will be some cooling via evaporation but that is not "wind chill". |
Chilly Diesel Problems
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
:"Eisboch" wrote in message ... : : "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message : ... : : : What about when it hits the windshield, under those same conditions? : : : Wind will cause an object to lose heat faster ... but will not cool it : below the ambient temperature. : : The evaporation of a liquid is a state change whereby energy is used and : heat is given off. : : Wind chill is a measurement of rapid cooling of living tissue. : : Eisboch : :We're going in circles. Stop focusing on the words "wind chill". Focus on :this: Assume you're a chemist, and you know for a fact that you personally :have correctly created windshield washer fluid that doesn't freeze at (to :pick a number) zero F., why does that fluid actually freeze at a higher :temperature, say 5 F., when the vehicle is moving and the fluid hits the :windshield? Evaporation drives this. Evaporation cools things off; it can cool things off below ambient temperature, despite multiple people in this thread saying it can't. Think about how an evaporative cooler works, or why an alcohol wipe is cool. Increasing the surface area increases the rate of evaporation. A film smeared across your windshield by the frozen wipers will evaporate quickly, leaving a nice thin sheet of ice. Wind, real or apparent from the car's motion, also increase the rate of evaporation. I also expect that the alcohol in the solvent evaporates more quickly than the water, so the ice on the window is mostly water. |
Chilly Diesel Problems
"Calif Bill" wrote in message link.net... Wind Chill. I do not think it refers to living tissue. I think the definition is how much heat transfer would occur in still air vs. Moving air. some low speed of air. -15 degrees with a wind chill of -30, says the same heat loss would occur if the temp was -30 and no wind movement. Nothing to do with evaporation but with the tendency of the air to heat up near the warmer object, slowing down heat transfer. The term "Wind Chill" applies *only* to living tissue. It refers to the rate of cooling (limited by the ambient temperature) that occurs to exposed living tissue. The increased rate of cooling can exceed the living tissue's ability to replace the heat lost and things like frostbite can quickly occur. The wind can't make it colder. It only makes the rate of heat transfer and cooling of the object faster. Heat transfer is higher in turbulent flow. Eisboch |
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"David Scheidt" wrote in message ... JoeSpareBedroom wrote: :"Eisboch" wrote in message ... : : "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message : ... : : : What about when it hits the windshield, under those same conditions? : : : Wind will cause an object to lose heat faster ... but will not cool it : below the ambient temperature. : : The evaporation of a liquid is a state change whereby energy is used and : heat is given off. : : Wind chill is a measurement of rapid cooling of living tissue. : : Eisboch : :We're going in circles. Stop focusing on the words "wind chill". Focus on :this: Assume you're a chemist, and you know for a fact that you personally :have correctly created windshield washer fluid that doesn't freeze at (to :pick a number) zero F., why does that fluid actually freeze at a higher :temperature, say 5 F., when the vehicle is moving and the fluid hits the :windshield? Evaporation drives this. Evaporation cools things off; it can cool things off below ambient temperature, despite multiple people in this thread saying it can't. Think about how an evaporative cooler works, or why an alcohol wipe is cool. Increasing the surface area increases the rate of evaporation. A film smeared across your windshield by the frozen wipers will evaporate quickly, leaving a nice thin sheet of ice. Wind, real or apparent from the car's motion, also increase the rate of evaporation. I also expect that the alcohol in the solvent evaporates more quickly than the water, so the ice on the window is mostly water. This is funny. A whole bunch of experts explaining 9th grade physics. Eisboch |
Chilly Diesel Problems
"Calif Bill" wrote in message link.net... "Eisboch" wrote in message . .. "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... What about when it hits the windshield, under those same conditions? Wind will cause an object to lose heat faster ... but will not cool it below the ambient temperature. The evaporation of a liquid is a state change whereby energy is used and heat is given off. Wind chill is a measurement of rapid cooling of living tissue. Eisboch Wind Chill. I do not think it refers to living tissue. It is something that *only* living tissue can experience. |
Chilly Diesel Problems
"RCE" wrote in message ... "Calif Bill" wrote in message link.net... Wind Chill. I do not think it refers to living tissue. I think the definition is how much heat transfer would occur in still air vs. Moving air. some low speed of air. -15 degrees with a wind chill of -30, says the same heat loss would occur if the temp was -30 and no wind movement. Nothing to do with evaporation but with the tendency of the air to heat up near the warmer object, slowing down heat transfer. The term "Wind Chill" applies *only* to living tissue. It refers to the rate of cooling (limited by the ambient temperature) that occurs to exposed living tissue. The increased rate of cooling can exceed the living tissue's ability to replace the heat lost and things like frostbite can quickly occur. To add: If it is 20 degrees outside and the wind is howling, producing a "wind chill" of -10 degrees, it is equivalent to subjecting exposed tissue to -10 degrees. It's still 20 degrees, ambient. Eisboch |
Chilly Diesel Problems
"RCE" wrote in message
... "RCE" wrote in message ... "Calif Bill" wrote in message link.net... Wind Chill. I do not think it refers to living tissue. I think the definition is how much heat transfer would occur in still air vs. Moving air. some low speed of air. -15 degrees with a wind chill of -30, says the same heat loss would occur if the temp was -30 and no wind movement. Nothing to do with evaporation but with the tendency of the air to heat up near the warmer object, slowing down heat transfer. The term "Wind Chill" applies *only* to living tissue. It refers to the rate of cooling (limited by the ambient temperature) that occurs to exposed living tissue. The increased rate of cooling can exceed the living tissue's ability to replace the heat lost and things like frostbite can quickly occur. To add: If it is 20 degrees outside and the wind is howling, producing a "wind chill" of -10 degrees, it is equivalent to subjecting exposed tissue to -10 degrees. It's still 20 degrees, ambient. Eisboch Of course. The alcohol gone - water remaining & freezing idea seems the most plausible at this point. |
Chilly Diesel Problems
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message news:bbKyh.2321 The alcohol gone - water remaining & freezing idea seems the most plausible at this point. Water and water vapor is an interesting and complex subject. I spent the better part of my career dealing with their effects and properties in reduced pressure (vacuum chambers) vessels. Water vapor does not follow natural gas laws and is the bane of those of us trying to create high vacuum environments (equal to 200-300 miles in space) here on earth. Place a cup of water in a large vacuum system and begin to remove the air, reducing the atmospheric pressure. The water will quickly freeze at the reduced pressure. Continue to reduce the pressure and the block of ice will suddenly start to rapidly boil ... in the blink of an eye. Continue to reduce the pressure and it will suddenly freeze again and begin to sublimate (goes from solid to vapor without becoming a solid). It also has weird properties when it condenses. Picture a snowflake with all of it's points. Each point becomes a nucleation site for the next bit of water vapor. Enough of them and they form an insulating lay whereby no further nucleation takes place. That's why you don't get 3 inches of frost on your windshield. The process stops once the outer surface is insulated sufficiently from the cold glass where the initial nucleation took place. Eisboch |
Chilly Diesel Problems
On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 13:32:33 -0500, "RCE" wrote:
"David Scheidt" wrote in message ... JoeSpareBedroom wrote: :"Eisboch" wrote in message ... : : "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message : ... : : : What about when it hits the windshield, under those same conditions? : : : Wind will cause an object to lose heat faster ... but will not cool it : below the ambient temperature. : : The evaporation of a liquid is a state change whereby energy is used and : heat is given off. : : Wind chill is a measurement of rapid cooling of living tissue. : : Eisboch : :We're going in circles. Stop focusing on the words "wind chill". Focus on :this: Assume you're a chemist, and you know for a fact that you personally :have correctly created windshield washer fluid that doesn't freeze at (to :pick a number) zero F., why does that fluid actually freeze at a higher :temperature, say 5 F., when the vehicle is moving and the fluid hits the :windshield? Evaporation drives this. Evaporation cools things off; it can cool things off below ambient temperature, despite multiple people in this thread saying it can't. Think about how an evaporative cooler works, or why an alcohol wipe is cool. Increasing the surface area increases the rate of evaporation. A film smeared across your windshield by the frozen wipers will evaporate quickly, leaving a nice thin sheet of ice. Wind, real or apparent from the car's motion, also increase the rate of evaporation. I also expect that the alcohol in the solvent evaporates more quickly than the water, so the ice on the window is mostly water. This is funny. A whole bunch of experts explaining 9th grade physics. Eisboch For a very few of us, 9th grade was well over 45 years ago. I enjoyed and learned from this discussion. Remind me not to argue water vapor properties with you. -- ***** Have a super day! ***** John H |
Chilly Diesel Problems
"RCE" wrote in message
... "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message news:bbKyh.2321 The alcohol gone - water remaining & freezing idea seems the most plausible at this point. Water and water vapor is an interesting and complex subject. I spent the better part of my career dealing with their effects and properties in reduced pressure (vacuum chambers) vessels. Water vapor does not follow natural gas laws and is the bane of those of us trying to create high vacuum environments (equal to 200-300 miles in space) here on earth. Place a cup of water in a large vacuum system and begin to remove the air, reducing the atmospheric pressure. The water will quickly freeze at the reduced pressure. Continue to reduce the pressure and the block of ice will suddenly start to rapidly boil ... in the blink of an eye. Continue to reduce the pressure and it will suddenly freeze again and begin to sublimate (goes from solid to vapor without becoming a solid). All of this happens at what range of temperatures? When you're reducing the air pressure, the temp is remaining fairly constant? It also has weird properties when it condenses. Picture a snowflake with all of it's points. Each point becomes a nucleation site for the next bit of water vapor. Enough of them and they form an insulating lay whereby no further nucleation takes place. That's why you don't get 3 inches of frost on your windshield. The process stops once the outer surface is insulated sufficiently from the cold glass where the initial nucleation took place. Eisboch |
Chilly Diesel Problems
I hate to end a very interesting discussion, but the definitive answer is below, I have copied 3 definitions of wind chill, and the last paragraph is from USA Today and discusses wind chill and freezing water: wind-chill factor (wÄ*nd'chÄ*l') n. The temperature of windless air that would have the same effect on exposed human skin as a given combination of wind speed and air temperature. Definition: Wind chill accounts for loss of heat when warm air around a body is replaced with colder air. The factor is an indication of the effect of the combination of air temperature and wind speed on human comfort and safety. Definition: The wind chill index gives a temperature-like number to indicate what the current weather conditions would feel like on a calm day. For example, if the temperature is -5°C and the wind chill is -20, it means your face will feel as cold as it would on a day when the temperature was -20°C. The wind chill is only given in a weather forecast if it is expected to be significant. from USA today: Answers archive: Can wind chill alone freeze water By Jack Williams, USATODAY.com Q: If the temperature is 38 degrees and the wind chill is 27 degrees, will water on roads freeze? A: No. Wind chill attempts to account for the effects of wind carrying heat away from your body, or the body of an animal. No matter how hard the wind blows, it doesn't change the air's temperature. You find more on this by going to a USATODAY.com file about Wind chill applies only to people, animals. Also, you should be aware that whenever the temperature is near freezing, water on roads could freeze because the road is in a colder place than where the temperature was measured. Official temperatures are measured about 4 feet above the ground and the ground or the surface of a road can be two or three degrees colder. In other words, if you hear on the radio that the temperature is 35 degrees, this doesn't mean you don't need to worry about ice on the road. You'll find a lot of useful information by going to our winter safety guide. |
Chilly Diesel Problems
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... "RCE" wrote in message ... to reduce the pressure and it will suddenly freeze again and begin to sublimate (goes from solid to vapor without becoming a solid). All of this happens at what range of temperatures? When you're reducing the air pressure, the temp is remaining fairly constant? As the pressure is reduced, the only temperature left is that remaining in the water, (aside from any radiant energy). As pressure is reduced, the vapor pressure changes. Often, high intensity quartz lamps or UV emitters are used to add energy to the remaining water molecules to excite them to a state where they can be removed or captured by the vacuum pumps. Otherwise they cling to the vacuum chamber walls and will slowly sublimate for hours or days. Think of your car's radiator. The pressure cap allows the cooling system to operate at a higher barometric pressure than at atmosphere, raising the boiling point of water. The opposite happens in the vacuum chambers. To a less obvious degree, the normal barometric pressure variations at atmosphere affects dew points, etc. for a given temperature. BTW ... in my partial sentence quoted above about sublimation ... I meant to say "goes from solid to vapor without becoming a liquid". Eisboch |
Chilly Diesel Problems
"JLH" wrote in message ... Remind me not to argue water vapor properties with you. -- I prefer to call it a "discussion". Except, I am right. :-) Eisboch |
Chilly Diesel Problems
Reginald P. Smithers III wrote:
One last article from the US govt. on wind chill and radiator freezing: 2. Can windchill impact my car's radiator or exposed water pipe? back A. The only effect windchill has on inanimate objects, such as car radiators and water pipes, is to shorten the amount of time for the object to cool. The inanimate object will not cool below the actual air temperature. For example, if the temperature outside is -5 degrees Fahrenheit and the windchill temperature is -31 degrees Fahrenheit, then your car's radiator will not drop lower than -5 degrees Fahrenheit. http://www.weather.gov/os/windchill/...glossary.shtml |
Chilly Diesel Problems
"RCE" wrote in message
... "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... "RCE" wrote in message ... to reduce the pressure and it will suddenly freeze again and begin to sublimate (goes from solid to vapor without becoming a solid). All of this happens at what range of temperatures? When you're reducing the air pressure, the temp is remaining fairly constant? As the pressure is reduced, the only temperature left is that remaining in the water, (aside from any radiant energy). As pressure is reduced, the vapor pressure changes. Often, high intensity quartz lamps or UV emitters are used to add energy to the remaining water molecules to excite them to a state where they can be removed or captured by the vacuum pumps. Otherwise they cling to the vacuum chamber walls and will slowly sublimate for hours or days. Think of your car's radiator. The pressure cap allows the cooling system to operate at a higher barometric pressure than at atmosphere, raising the boiling point of water. The opposite happens in the vacuum chambers. To a less obvious degree, the normal barometric pressure variations at atmosphere affects dew points, etc. for a given temperature. BTW ... in my partial sentence quoted above about sublimation ... I meant to say "goes from solid to vapor without becoming a liquid". Eisboch Well anyway, it appears I've gone beyond my streak of good luck with windshield fluid. 35 years of driving in frigid climates, and never a problem until now, when I get not just one, but two products in a row made by idiots or liars. The stuff's frozen in the tank, at 14 degrees F. |
Chilly Diesel Problems
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:05:26 GMT, "Calif Bill"
wrote: "Eisboch" wrote in message ... "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... What about when it hits the windshield, under those same conditions? Wind will cause an object to lose heat faster ... but will not cool it below the ambient temperature. The evaporation of a liquid is a state change whereby energy is used and heat is given off. Wind chill is a measurement of rapid cooling of living tissue. Eisboch Wind Chill. I do not think it refers to living tissue. I think the definition is how much heat transfer would occur in still air vs. Moving air. some low speed of air. -15 degrees with a wind chill of -30, says the same heat loss would occur if the temp was -30 and no wind movement. Nothing to do with evaporation but with the tendency of the air to heat up near the warmer object, slowing down heat transfer. It's supposedly based on skin feel. Whose skin is up for debate. There's a formula for it, but anybody who has spent time in the cold knows that if the wind can make your nose freeze solid but if you turn from the wind your nose is okay, the same procedure can apply to your car's engine block when deciding whether it is best to park facing the wind, or away from it. Basically the term has been appropriated by weathermen to keep people properly scared. Saw a map of temperatures the local joker put up last night which gave me a momentary shock, until I realized it was all wind chill temps. Yeah, like anybody knows how the winds are blowing at these locations. It was inaccurate before it was posted. As you said, it's all about heat transfer. Just don't call it wind chill unless you're talking about human skin. That's taken. Call it air chilled, then nobody can challenge you. --Vic |
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"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... Well anyway, it appears I've gone beyond my streak of good luck with windshield fluid. 35 years of driving in frigid climates, and never a problem until now, when I get not just one, but two products in a row made by idiots or liars. The stuff's frozen in the tank, at 14 degrees F. Well just think. Now, armed with your newly acquired knowledge, sue 'em! Eisboch |
Chilly Diesel Problems
"RCE" wrote in message
... "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... Well anyway, it appears I've gone beyond my streak of good luck with windshield fluid. 35 years of driving in frigid climates, and never a problem until now, when I get not just one, but two products in a row made by idiots or liars. The stuff's frozen in the tank, at 14 degrees F. Well just think. Now, armed with your newly acquired knowledge, sue 'em! Eisboch The supermarket's been informed. Knowing Wegman's, they'll pull it from the shelves pretty quickly. |
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On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 15:09:29 -0500, "RCE" wrote:
BTW ... in my partial sentence quoted above about sublimation ... I meant to say "goes from solid to vapor without becoming a liquid". Commonly "seen" when snow "disappears" even though the temp is below freezing. Or hanging out the wash in freezing temps but it dries, or so I've heard. --Vic |
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On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 20:16:16 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote: Well anyway, it appears I've gone beyond my streak of good luck with windshield fluid. 35 years of driving in frigid climates, and never a problem until now, when I get not just one, but two products in a row made by idiots or liars. The stuff's frozen in the tank, at 14 degrees F. I wonder if that might crack the tank, rupture the hoses, and fracture the plastic spray nozzles as we speak. Nah. --Vic |
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"Vic Smith" wrote in message
... On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 20:16:16 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote: Well anyway, it appears I've gone beyond my streak of good luck with windshield fluid. 35 years of driving in frigid climates, and never a problem until now, when I get not just one, but two products in a row made by idiots or liars. The stuff's frozen in the tank, at 14 degrees F. I wonder if that might crack the tank, rupture the hoses, and fracture the plastic spray nozzles as we speak. Nah. --Vic That would be fun. |
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On Feb 8, 12:32 pm, "RCE" wrote:
"David Scheidt" wrote in message ... JoeSpareBedroom wrote: :"Eisboch" wrote in message ... : : "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... : : : What about when it hits the windshield, under those same conditions? : : : Wind will cause an object to lose heat faster ... but will not cool it : below the ambient temperature. : : The evaporation of a liquid is a state change whereby energy is used and : heat is given off. : : Wind chill is a measurement of rapid cooling of living tissue. : : Eisboch : :We're going in circles. Stop focusing on the words "wind chill". Focus on :this: Assume you're a chemist, and you know for a fact that you personally :have correctly created windshield washer fluid that doesn't freeze at (to :pick a number) zero F., why does that fluid actually freeze at a higher :temperature, say 5 F., when the vehicle is moving and the fluid hits the :windshield? Evaporation drives this. Evaporation cools things off; it can cool things off below ambient temperature, despite multiple people in this thread saying it can't. Think about how an evaporative cooler works, or why an alcohol wipe is cool. Increasing the surface area increases the rate of evaporation. A film smeared across your windshield by the frozen wipers will evaporate quickly, leaving a nice thin sheet of ice. Wind, real or apparent from the car's motion, also increase the rate of evaporation. I also expect that the alcohol in the solvent evaporates more quickly than the water, so the ice on the window is mostly water. This is funny. A whole bunch of experts explaining 9th grade physics.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - What did you expect - this is Usenet. Everybody is an expert on everything. :) |
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On Feb 8, 2:11 pm, "RCE" wrote:
"JLH" wrote in message ... Remind me not to argue water vapor properties with you. -- I prefer to call it a "discussion". Except, I am right. :-) I prefer to call it pizza. Then again, I'm a little weird. |
Chilly Diesel Problems
On Feb 8, 12:56 pm, "RCE" wrote:
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message news:bbKyh.2321 The alcohol gone - water remaining & freezing idea seems the most plausible at this point. Water and water vapor is an interesting and complex subject. I spent the better part of my career dealing with their effects and properties in reduced pressure (vacuum chambers) vessels. Water vapor does not follow natural gas laws and is the bane of those of us trying to create high vacuum environments (equal to 200-300 miles in space) here on earth. Place a cup of water in a large vacuum system and begin to remove the air, reducing the atmospheric pressure. The water will quickly freeze at the reduced pressure. Continue to reduce the pressure and the block of ice will suddenly start to rapidly boil ... in the blink of an eye. Continue to reduce the pressure and it will suddenly freeze again and begin to sublimate (goes from solid to vapor without becoming a solid). It also has weird properties when it condenses. Picture a snowflake with all of it's points. Each point becomes a nucleation site for the next bit of water vapor. Enough of them and they form an insulating lay whereby no further nucleation takes place. That's why you don't get 3 inches of frost on your windshield. The process stops once the outer surface is insulated sufficiently from the cold glass where the initial nucleation took place. That's the third time in two days I've heard the term nucleation. That's the effect you get when you drop a Mentos into a bottle of diet soda. Funny - I never looked at frost like that. |
Chilly Diesel Problems
On Feb 8, 2:09 pm, "RCE" wrote:
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... "RCE" wrote in message m... to reduce the pressure and it will suddenly freeze again and begin to sublimate (goes from solid to vapor without becoming a solid). All of this happens at what range of temperatures? When you're reducing the air pressure, the temp is remaining fairly constant? As the pressure is reduced, the only temperature left is that remaining in the water, (aside from any radiant energy). As pressure is reduced, the vapor pressure changes. Often, high intensity quartz lamps or UV emitters are used to add energy to the remaining water molecules to excite them to a state where they can be removed or captured by the vacuum pumps. Otherwise they cling to the vacuum chamber walls and will slowly sublimate for hours or days. Think of your car's radiator. The pressure cap allows the cooling system to operate at a higher barometric pressure than at atmosphere, raising the boiling point of water. The opposite happens in the vacuum chambers. To a less obvious degree, the normal barometric pressure variations at atmosphere affects dew points, etc. for a given temperature. BTW ... in my partial sentence quoted above about sublimation ... I meant to say "goes from solid to vapor without becoming a liquid". Water at altitude boils at a lower temperature - makes sense to me. |
Chilly Diesel Problems
On Feb 8, 2:16 pm, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
"RCE" wrote in message ... "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... "RCE" wrote in message om... to reduce the pressure and it will suddenly freeze again and begin to sublimate (goes from solid to vapor without becoming a solid). All of this happens at what range of temperatures? When you're reducing the air pressure, the temp is remaining fairly constant? As the pressure is reduced, the only temperature left is that remaining in the water, (aside from any radiant energy). As pressure is reduced, the vapor pressure changes. Often, high intensity quartz lamps or UV emitters are used to add energy to the remaining water molecules to excite them to a state where they can be removed or captured by the vacuum pumps. Otherwise they cling to the vacuum chamber walls and will slowly sublimate for hours or days. Think of your car's radiator. The pressure cap allows the cooling system to operate at a higher barometric pressure than at atmosphere, raising the boiling point of water. The opposite happens in the vacuum chambers. To a less obvious degree, the normal barometric pressure variations at atmosphere affects dew points, etc. for a given temperature. BTW ... in my partial sentence quoted above about sublimation ... I meant to say "goes from solid to vapor without becoming a liquid". Eisboch Well anyway, it appears I've gone beyond my streak of good luck with windshield fluid. 35 years of driving in frigid climates, and never a problem until now, when I get not just one, but two products in a row made by idiots or liars. The stuff's frozen in the tank, at 14 degrees F.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I wonder if you got some extraneous water in the fluid tank? |
Chilly Diesel Problems
"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
oups.com... On Feb 8, 2:16 pm, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote: "RCE" wrote in message ... "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... "RCE" wrote in message om... to reduce the pressure and it will suddenly freeze again and begin to sublimate (goes from solid to vapor without becoming a solid). All of this happens at what range of temperatures? When you're reducing the air pressure, the temp is remaining fairly constant? As the pressure is reduced, the only temperature left is that remaining in the water, (aside from any radiant energy). As pressure is reduced, the vapor pressure changes. Often, high intensity quartz lamps or UV emitters are used to add energy to the remaining water molecules to excite them to a state where they can be removed or captured by the vacuum pumps. Otherwise they cling to the vacuum chamber walls and will slowly sublimate for hours or days. Think of your car's radiator. The pressure cap allows the cooling system to operate at a higher barometric pressure than at atmosphere, raising the boiling point of water. The opposite happens in the vacuum chambers. To a less obvious degree, the normal barometric pressure variations at atmosphere affects dew points, etc. for a given temperature. BTW ... in my partial sentence quoted above about sublimation ... I meant to say "goes from solid to vapor without becoming a liquid". Eisboch Well anyway, it appears I've gone beyond my streak of good luck with windshield fluid. 35 years of driving in frigid climates, and never a problem until now, when I get not just one, but two products in a row made by idiots or liars. The stuff's frozen in the tank, at 14 degrees F.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I wonder if you got some extraneous water in the fluid tank? Who the hell knows. The tank isn't in plain sight. It's below a bunch of other crap, and only the spout comes to the top of the engine compartment. So, it's far from any heat source. And, the entire bottom of the truck is encrusted with frozen crud. I'll deal with it when I get tires next week. Have it washed, go straight to the mechanic's, figure it out there. Bring some name brand fluid (ha ha), drain the tank, start from scratch. Good mechanic. He likes customers in the shop, as long as talk about fishing and don't get in his way. |
Chilly Diesel Problems
Eisboch wrote: "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... Here's something to invent: Windshield washer that doesn't freeze, with the vehicle just sitting in the driveway. I've lived here 25 years and never had this problem until now. 3 weeks back, I had to drain the entire tank of whatever crap the mechanic put in it. Went & bought some other crap, which worked for a day when the temp was in the high 20s. This week, frozen again. Two different brands! Next, the fancy pink stuff from Armorall or whoever makes it. I was just reading about this in another NG. Apparently ( I never noticed this ) there is a "summer" windshield washer fluid that looks just like the winter stuff (same blue color) but is only good to 32 degrees. Maybe you got some of the wrong stuff. Eisboch Pour some rubbing alcohol in it. won't hurt a thing |
Chilly Diesel Problems
Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: I change mine every 60 or so and I'm at 113,000 now. Probably before summer. Let me know when the starter takes a dump, boss. you only have a few more thousand to go. Alternator will quit about 130,000. +/- that is if you keep it that long.. |
Chilly Diesel Problems
"RCE" wrote in message ... "JLH" wrote in message ... Remind me not to argue water vapor properties with you. -- I prefer to call it a "discussion". Except, I am right. :-) Eisboch Hey guys. Lets get serious. I need help. I've been trying to wind chill a beer for several days now. So far I haven't been able to reduce the brew's temp. below ambient, no matter how many fans I have blowing on it. I even tried to spritz it with water. Nothing I've tried works. I thought you guys were on to something with this wind chill theory, but alas, it's just a bunch of hot air. Jim |
Chilly Diesel Problems
r_d wrote: What about aftermarket block heaters all the type that replace the dipstick? Don't tell me google is my friend. I want you to do the work for me. :-) For what engine? All of the international diesels come with the heater installed from the factory (05 and newer ford trucks do not come with the cord but they can be had from International or eBay). I would imagine the GM and Cummins engines also come equip. If you are sure yours doesn't then you can get one that will install into one of the freeze plug holes. Just pick a side and install it into the center hole. The powerstroke engines, with a block heater equiped are usually on the passenger side, located right above the starter motor. Not hard to install, in fact quite easily. You can get them through about any auto supply for about $30.00 +/-. Only pain is you have tto drain the engine coolant to install it in the frost plug hole, that is, after you chisel the old one out. (again, not hard to do) I am not a fan of the dipstick heaters because they have been known to coke the oil that is in contact with the heater. agreed. Those things are junk. should be outlawed! they don't do a good job, they have beknownst to cook the oil just around the dipstick heater, and cake up a bunch of carbon to the point where you cant even pull the dipstick out of the tube. Katie, bar the door! You can also install one of the heaters that install onto one of the coolant lines. They apparently work well and also circulate the warm coolant through out the engine. bad problem I've seenwith those, it that it will heat the engine good, that is, until the theromostat opens then you end up circulating the water through the radiator, and lose a bunch of heat into the air Another option is to use a heating pad that glues to the bottom of the oil pan (and battery if you like). They also work fine but can also coke the oil. agreed. you are heating the engine oil, to thin it down so it will crank better, but you're really not directing the heat to the block where it counts more. There are tons of options but I prefer the ones that install into the coolant passage. These also work fine for gasoline engines, tractor engines and so on. All you need is the size of the freeze plug to get the correct size heater. good luck, mark Good thoughts, Mark. I'm glad you brought those items up |
Chilly Diesel Problems
"Jim" wrote in message hlink.net... Hey guys. Lets get serious. I need help. I've been trying to wind chill a beer for several days now. So far I haven't been able to reduce the brew's temp. below ambient, no matter how many fans I have blowing on it. I even tried to spritz it with water. Nothing I've tried works. I thought you guys were on to something with this wind chill theory, but alas, it's just a bunch of hot air. Jim Buy yourself a vacuum chamber. I probably could arrange a modest discount. Eisboch |
Chilly Diesel Problems
"RCE" wrote in message ... "Jim" wrote in message hlink.net... Hey guys. Lets get serious. I need help. I've been trying to wind chill a beer for several days now. So far I haven't been able to reduce the brew's temp. below ambient, no matter how many fans I have blowing on it. I even tried to spritz it with water. Nothing I've tried works. I thought you guys were on to something with this wind chill theory, but alas, it's just a bunch of hot air. Jim Buy yourself a vacuum chamber. I probably could arrange a modest discount. Eisboch Just what I need. An Electrolux on steroids. ;-) Jim |
Chilly Diesel Problems
"Jim" wrote in message link.net... "RCE" wrote in message ... "Jim" wrote in message hlink.net... Hey guys. Lets get serious. I need help. I've been trying to wind chill a beer for several days now. So far I haven't been able to reduce the brew's temp. below ambient, no matter how many fans I have blowing on it. I even tried to spritz it with water. Nothing I've tried works. I thought you guys were on to something with this wind chill theory, but alas, it's just a bunch of hot air. Jim Buy yourself a vacuum chamber. I probably could arrange a modest discount. Eisboch Just what I need. An Electrolux on steroids. ;-) Jim And a 3-phase, 60 kva electrical service in your garage to run it. You could probably tap it off your RV service. Rev. Eisboch |
Chilly Diesel Problems
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message ... 2002 Toyota Tacoma, not diesel. Swing by the dealer and see if you can find out the proper freeze plug size. Then check JC Whitney and see if they have the proper size. Just pop out the center freeze plug, install the heater and you are done. I have the same type of heater in both of my diesels and they crank right up and give you almost immediate heat. mark |
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