Richard Ferguson wrote:
I posted a note a while back about the buyer's guide in Canoe and Kayak
magazine, and the only response that I got said that whitewater solo
canoes are not intended to carry the person and 100 pounds of gear,
food, and water. I weigh 175 pounds, and sometimes need to carry water
on muddy rivers, so the 100 pound cargo number is probably in the ball
park. 7 days of water, at 1 gallon per day, weighs 56 pounds.



Lots of good advice in this thread :-)

I'll second the recommendation for a big Dagger Caper. This is a REAL
whitewater boat, with lots of room and rated to carry 800lbs with 6" of
freeboard, and it has 5 inches of rocker That's important for
turning in whitewater. I will not disrespect the Explorer as it's a
fantastic tripping canoe, but it's just not designed to be very
responsive. Hundreds of people use them, and like them, and they do get
the job done - but, nothing beats a ww boat with rocker if you want to
manuver.

That's said, let me address your reason for needing a big boat to carry
water: Can't you just fill up a big tub of water and let it settle
overnight, then use a filtering pump in the morning to stock up your
water supply for the day? Plus, I think your estimate of water usage is
low. More like 2 gallons a day if you are using water to cook, clean,
etc. Maybe almost a gallon a day just for drinking when you are working
hard on the water. And, who needs 56+ pounds of extra dead weight in a
canoe? You have to pack a certain amount of gear and food to be
comfortable. You should be alble to filter water at camp each day.

Hope you find the boat you are looking for. Good luck :-)

"Richard Ferguson" wrote
in message
...
Thanks for the comments.

You guys are pointing to bigger boats for tripping, it seems.
13 or 14 feet. The impression that I get is that the bigger
boats are also easier to paddle, but of course you give up some
performance and quick turning. The bigger boats also seem to
be preferred in big water, but not for creeking, makes sense.
I probably lean towards big water instead of creeking.

Mad River Explorer, though it is a little longer than you mention
at 16'. Another good Mad River solo would be the Courier. 14+'
and holds many 100s of pounds of gear. Tough, and runs white
water well. They are hard to find, as they were discontinued
quite awhile back. I was looking for one, but had no luck.

Richard Ferguson wrote:
Thanks for the comments.

You guys are pointing to bigger boats for tripping, it seems. 13 or 14
feet. The impression that I get is that the bigger boats are also
easier to paddle, but of course you give up some performance and quick
turning. The bigger boats also seem to be preferred in big water, but
not for creeking, makes sense. I probably lean towards big water
instead of creeking.

My question is whether I would notice a big improvement in whitewater
performance going from a 15 foot boat to a 13 or 14 foot boat. Of
course, the length is only part of the story, the Camper is 36 inches
wide, the other boats are less than 30 inches wide. The Camper has a
couple of inches of rocker, most real whitewater boats would have 4
inches or more rocker. If I am going to have two boats, I don't want
two boats that are only subtly different. It would seem illogical to
have a 14 foot boat and a 15 foot boat. But I guess I could trade up
from a 15' boat to a 17 footer for tandem tripping, if I could find room
for the larger boat. Maybe I will have to build a canoe shed. ;-)

I have heard that Mad River may be bringing back the Caption canoe, 14',
which I have heard people praise in the past.

If I have to buy a new boat, I am leaning to an Outrage X, 13'. At my
current weight, I may not need an X, but with camping gear I am sure
that the larger Outrage is the way to go. People do seem to like their
Outrage canoes. The Prodigy X, 12.4 feet, is probably the logical
alternative, maybe it just comes down to what I can get a deal on. If
Mohawk gets up and running a Probe 14 would carry lots of gear, a
tandem/solo boat. The Esquif Vertige, 13 foot, may not be as strong in
whitewater, some sources say that it is a beginner/intermediate boat. I
have done enough whitewater to want a little more performance. At this
point, I believe that there are only two whitewater canoe shops within
at least 200 miles, one carries Esquif, the other Bell, so not sure
where I would buy a new Outrage if I wanted to go that way.

I have not seen much information on the web about Esquif, probably not
widely distributed in the USA. I even looked in French, since it is
made in Quebec, and came up empty. Lots of comments available for the
various Mad River, Dagger, and Bell boats, even the ones long out of
production.

Richard



Richard Ferguson wrote:
I posted a note a while back about the buyer's guide in Canoe and Kayak
magazine, and the only response that I got said that whitewater solo
canoes are not intended to carry the person and 100 pounds of gear,
food, and water. I weigh 175 pounds, and sometimes need to carry water
on muddy rivers, so the 100 pound cargo number is probably in the ball
park. 7 days of water, at 1 gallon per day, weighs 56 pounds.

So, what should I be looking for if I want a whitewater canoe for
tripping? My only canoe is a 15 foot Old Town camper, rigged for solo
whitewater or tandem fla****er. It is good for carrying lots of stuff,
not bad in big water, but not good for quick maneuvering.

My take is that Bell has a bad reputation for durability, Mohawk has
been sold and is not up and running yet, Esquif has a range of canoes
and a local dealer, and Mad River offers Outrage X. There are some
other niche companies, but those seem to be the usual vendors. I figure
I want a Royalex boat, something that will take some abuse, we scrape
rocks a lot on the local whitewater run. I don't want a radical design,
since I have essentially zero time in whitewater canoes, and prefer not
to swim a lot.

For those of you who may remember my past postings, I am still looking
for a good deal on a used whitewater canoe. I am starting to consider a
new boat rather than pay $800 for a boat that has been beat up. Also,
my weight has dropped from above 200 to 175, so my weight is not so much
an issue.

Richard





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http://www.fergusonsculpture.com
Sculptures in copper and other metals

Richard Ferguson wrote:
The Dagger Caption was mostly a tandem boat, the only one that I have
ever seen was rigged as a tandem. I have seen one reference that
suggests that Old Town will start building Captions, but no firm info.

I have never seen or heard of a Whitesell canoe of any kind in the
Colorado area. I think that they may be a regional boat, probably could
find some east of the Mississippi.

As you say, the Sunburst II looks a lot like my Camper, although it is
narrower.

http://www.evergreencanoe.com/canoe_sunburst_ii.html

Evergreen canoe has a couple of US dealers on the East Coast, most of
their dealers are in Canada. Many of the small canoe manufacturers do
not have widespread distribution. I have never seen or heard of a
Sunburst or a canoe made by Evergreen in the Colorado area.

Anyway, I think that the boats that you are recommending are not likely
to be available in the Rocky Mountain area, used or new. I have seen
various Dagger canoes in Colorado, so any model of Dagger might be
available on the used market. Similarly, Old Town, Bell, Mohawk, and
Esquif are sold or have been sold in Colorado. The new whitewater boats
that I have seen in Colorado are mostly Esquif, due to the one Esquif
dealer. I think that I know one guy who has a radical looking Millbrook
boat, forget which model, but I think that he drove to New Hampshire and
picked it up.

I take it that you are closer to the East Coast than the Mississippi.

Richard



Mothra wrote:
OutrageX is a great boat, not my first choice for camping but you
couldn't go wrong with the boat overall. The Caption used to be a
Dagger design; wasn't it a tandem boat? I can see it's predecessor,
the Caper, being used solo tripping but I really don't think the
Caption performed all that well solo.

The Sunburst II that I recommended is sort of like your Camper in that
it has a pointy snout and tail but it has high gunwhales and it an old
style whitewater boat. If you get it, you can sell your Camper.

I've got to put a pitch in for an old style Whitesell Pyranha. It's
totally whitewater - actually it was based on the Sunburst but with a
rounded snout and tail and also a very interesting rounded midsection.
It would handle camping gear extremely well while being a total
whitewater boat.

Honestly, I'm not too keen on even using a 13 foot OutrageX as a
camping boat - maybe an overnighter, but it's really not going to
perform well with a load. The Whitesell Pyranha or the Sunburst II
would.



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http://www.fergusonsculpture.com
Sculptures in copper and other metals

I was over on the Monocacy Canoe Club website and saw some posts about
the Old Town Appalachian. Though this is a tandem design - I believe
it would work better than either an Explorer or a Caption as it's hull
falls somewhat between the two. Would certaily carry the load and work
well on basic whitewater.

These two boats are suitable for what you want to do.

Mad River Guide or the Wenonah Rendezvous.

All the other white water boats you mention are not made for tripping.
White water boats are made to spin and maneuver, not designed to carry
a lot of gear.

Knu-dewd

"Richard Ferguson" wrote in message
...
The Dagger Caption was mostly a tandem boat, the only one that I have ever
seen was rigged as a tandem. I have seen one reference that suggests that
Old Town will start building Captions, but no firm info.

I have never seen or heard of a Whitesell canoe of any kind in the
Colorado area. I think that they may be a regional boat, probably could
find some east of the Mississippi.

As you say, the Sunburst II looks a lot like my Camper, although it is
narrower.

http://www.evergreencanoe.com/canoe_sunburst_ii.html

Evergreen canoe has a couple of US dealers on the East Coast, most of
their dealers are in Canada. Many of the small canoe manufacturers do not
have widespread distribution. I have never seen or heard of a Sunburst or
a canoe made by Evergreen in the Colorado area.

Anyway, I think that the boats that you are recommending are not likely to
be available in the Rocky Mountain area, used or new. I have seen various
Dagger canoes in Colorado, so any model of Dagger might be available on
the used market. Similarly, Old Town, Bell, Mohawk, and Esquif are sold
or have been sold in Colorado. The new whitewater boats that I have seen
in Colorado are mostly Esquif, due to the one Esquif dealer. I think that
I know one guy who has a radical looking Millbrook boat, forget which
model, but I think that he drove to New Hampshire and picked it up.

I take it that you are closer to the East Coast than the Mississippi.

Richard



Mad River Explorer 16'. Best all-around whitewater/tripping boat out there.
The shallow-V does give it a bit of unsteadiness for poling, but it paddles
class 3-4 waves with a load of gear, and its a fine playboat when empty.

Be sure to find a hull from when they were made in Vermont, however.

--riverman

The previous response you received was fairly accurate.
Having read your posts it would seem you are wanting the best of two
different worlds
Tripping and WW Playboating.
First understand its not the boat per se, the paddler has much to do with
the equation.
Running and surviving class I,II and sometimes class III means you're lucky.
Running I,II and sometimes ClassIII hitting most of the eddys, ferrying, and
surfing some
means you're controlling your boat and going where you want to go on the
river. You're in control
not the water.
It's not necessarily a fast learning curve to do the latter. To try and
learn it in a loaded (weighted) boat
is even harder.
There are WW boats that will carry the load you mentioned. Many paddlers in
WW boats have carried
the loads you speak of, but they learned to paddle and play in unloaded
boats. They extended their trips
and loads gradually as they learned over the (years).
Here are some of those boats: Blue Hole: Sunburst II Dagger: Caper,
Caption
Whitesell: Piranha
There are others, but these are good ones. All are around 14 to 15 feet in
length, some have more rocker
than others etc...
I suggest you buy one, outfit it for playboating. Take it to the river start
working it and yourself. Add
weight slowly (water or sand) to get a feel for a load. Keep your Camper,
use what you learn with the
WW boat while paddling it. What you do on the river has much more to do with
you, your skills
rather than the boat.
BoomerX

"Richard Ferguson" wrote in message
...
I posted a note a while back about the buyer's guide in Canoe and Kayak
magazine, and the only response that I got said that whitewater solo
canoes are not intended to carry the person and 100 pounds of gear,
food, and water. I weigh 175 pounds, and sometimes need to carry water
on muddy rivers, so the 100 pound cargo number is probably in the ball
park. 7 days of water, at 1 gallon per day, weighs 56 pounds.

So, what should I be looking for if I want a whitewater canoe for
tripping? My only canoe is a 15 foot Old Town camper, rigged for solo
whitewater or tandem fla****er. It is good for carrying lots of stuff,
not bad in big water, but not good for quick maneuvering.

My take is that Bell has a bad reputation for durability, Mohawk has
been sold and is not up and running yet, Esquif has a range of canoes
and a local dealer, and Mad River offers Outrage X. There are some
other niche companies, but those seem to be the usual vendors. I figure
I want a Royalex boat, something that will take some abuse, we scrape
rocks a lot on the local whitewater run. I don't want a radical design,
since I have essentially zero time in whitewater canoes, and prefer not
to swim a lot.

For those of you who may remember my past postings, I am still looking
for a good deal on a used whitewater canoe. I am starting to consider a
new boat rather than pay $800 for a boat that has been beat up. Also,
my weight has dropped from above 200 to 175, so my weight is not so much
an issue.

Richard



--
http://www.fergusonsculpture.com
Sculptures in copper and other metals