On 11 Sep 2006 17:40:32 -0700, "Bilbo" wrote:

I think anything over $300 would eliminate the junk label. At that
stage, except for I believe Star and their glued boats, essentially
everything is going to be welded PVC or encapusulated urethane.
The AIRE Tomcats will be sewn but if you take the precaution of
coating the seams with aquaseal, it would be a tough boat
to beat.

I have an NRS Bandit II, an AIRE Tomcat II, and both the tandem
and solo Sevylor SVX models.

The Bandit II has no payload to speak of. 350 lbs if I remember
correctly and that might be pushing it. My wife and I are awash
when using it. It's a decent, very lightweight whitewater boat which
is not your goal.

Had absolutely no trouble with either the Tomcat and Sevylor.
Some people speak of pinhole leaks in the AIRE vinyl bladder, but
I've not experienced it. Obviously urethane bladders would be the
choice here. The Sevylor comes with the world's worst
and cheapest valves. But buy a couple of the spare boston valves
for 5 bucks, and you're good to go.

I wouldn't spend $800 for what you have speced out, must less
$1200.

Go to eBay and buy a Tomcat or SVX200 lightly used for $400.
If you don't like it or outgrow it, sell it there again for $350.

Before that go to http://www.theboatpeople.com/faqs.html .
He puts forth some frank opinions on IK's that I tend to agree with
although I don't like Innova.

Be aware that a few years ago I thought the same as you about
taking the IK a few times a year to the local lake. After a
hardshell, an IK on flat water is painful. But put them on moving
water, and it's a different ballgame.

I use the Bandit for serious whitewater and anything that requires
flying in with the boat. The AIRE on multiday river trips where I
carry a bunch of gear in comfort. The SVX200 gets loaned out
a lot. Most people like the look of it better than the AIRE and
I agree. They say it also handles better but I don't think there
is much difference. The AIRE is a lot drier ride than either of the
other two.

Gene




Hi all,
I am looking for an inflatable kayak, and would like recommendations as
to size, material, brand, etc.
I am looking for a basic inflatable that I can use as a family
recreation type boat and:

1. Can carry 2 people
2. Will handle reasonably well in calm water or maybe a little bit of
chop. Bottom line: no whitewater action contemplated. Just maybe
some kayaking on the bay or lake / river.
3. Is better than a pool toy
4. Can be stored compactly

Frankly I'm looking to spend as little as I can, but not buy junk.
Granted, I don't want to spend much because my demands on this kayak
will be pretty low, but I don't want something that will leak and fall
apart in two uses, either.

I will admit that I'm somewhat of a performance freak, but the Tomcat
is not what I would recommend to paddle fla****er. I haven't tried the
new model River X, but I'm completely unimpressed with the original. It
didn't blow up even as tight as the Tomcat and the floor didn't self
bail worth a damn.

Hull shape and hull stiffness make a hell of a lot of difference in
performance. That may not mean much if you just want to putter around
on the local pond, but at the end of the day and you are fighting a
head wind, having a stiff and effiencent hull makes the difference
between a good and a bad day.

The Super Lynx handles about like a plastic touring SOT, and I would
think that the Solar II would paddle just about as easy. Paddling a WW
IK on flat water gets to be no fun pretty quick, but so does paddling
flat water in a hardshell whitewater kayak. the inflatables that are
designed to handle fla****er paddle as well as everything except true
sea kayaks.

You get what you pay for when you buy IK's.

deadlizard wrote:
On 11 Sep 2006 17:40:32 -0700, "Bilbo" wrote:

I think anything over $300 would eliminate the junk label. At that
stage, except for I believe Star and their glued boats, essentially
everything is going to be welded PVC or encapusulated urethane.
The AIRE Tomcats will be sewn but if you take the precaution of
coating the seams with aquaseal, it would be a tough boat
to beat.

I have an NRS Bandit II, an AIRE Tomcat II, and both the tandem
and solo Sevylor SVX models.

The Bandit II has no payload to speak of. 350 lbs if I remember
correctly and that might be pushing it. My wife and I are awash
when using it. It's a decent, very lightweight whitewater boat which
is not your goal.

Had absolutely no trouble with either the Tomcat and Sevylor.
Some people speak of pinhole leaks in the AIRE vinyl bladder, but
I've not experienced it. Obviously urethane bladders would be the
choice here. The Sevylor comes with the world's worst
and cheapest valves. But buy a couple of the spare boston valves
for 5 bucks, and you're good to go.

I wouldn't spend $800 for what you have speced out, must less
$1200.

Go to eBay and buy a Tomcat or SVX200 lightly used for $400.
If you don't like it or outgrow it, sell it there again for $350.

Before that go to http://www.theboatpeople.com/faqs.html .
He puts forth some frank opinions on IK's that I tend to agree with
although I don't like Innova.

Be aware that a few years ago I thought the same as you about
taking the IK a few times a year to the local lake. After a
hardshell, an IK on flat water is painful. But put them on moving
water, and it's a different ballgame.

I use the Bandit for serious whitewater and anything that requires
flying in with the boat. The AIRE on multiday river trips where I
carry a bunch of gear in comfort. The SVX200 gets loaned out
a lot. Most people like the look of it better than the AIRE and
I agree. They say it also handles better but I don't think there
is much difference. The AIRE is a lot drier ride than either of the
other two.

Gene




Hi all,
I am looking for an inflatable kayak, and would like recommendations as
to size, material, brand, etc.
I am looking for a basic inflatable that I can use as a family
recreation type boat and:

1. Can carry 2 people
2. Will handle reasonably well in calm water or maybe a little bit of
chop. Bottom line: no whitewater action contemplated. Just maybe
some kayaking on the bay or lake / river.
3. Is better than a pool toy
4. Can be stored compactly

Frankly I'm looking to spend as little as I can, but not buy junk.
Granted, I don't want to spend much because my demands on this kayak
will be pretty low, but I don't want something that will leak and fall
apart in two uses, either.

Here's what I took to be the primary criteria excerpted from
the request for recommendation:

"Bottom line: no whitewater action contemplated.

Frankly I'm looking to spend as little as I can, but not buy junk."

Yet the two biggest recommendations out were for the Lynx II
and Super Lynx, which could well be the most expensive IK's
on the market. Excluding any true exotics.

I'm aware the River X's have very marginal self-bailers. The
Tomcat isn't much better. But based on the "no whitewater
action contemplated", that didn't enter into the equation.

Essentially all the IK's are from 34-40 inches wide. Frankly, I don't
envy the thought of spending a lot of time pushing any of them
around on flat water for a great amount of time.

All of the boats discussed here will last for at least a few years
with the more expensive going into a 2nd decade. But if I
get 5 years out of a $400 boat, it's all good.

I think we bias the recommendation based on what we personally would
like to buy, not what might meet his specs. No argument from
me that the Super Lynx is a better boat but I have trouble fitting
that into the "spend as little as I can" category.

Take care.

Gene







On 13 Sep 2006 10:11:03 -0700, "Larry C" wrote:

I will admit that I'm somewhat of a performance freak, but the Tomcat
is not what I would recommend to paddle fla****er. I haven't tried the
new model River X, but I'm completely unimpressed with the original. It
didn't blow up even as tight as the Tomcat and the floor didn't self
bail worth a damn.

Hull shape and hull stiffness make a hell of a lot of difference in
performance. That may not mean much if you just want to putter around
on the local pond, but at the end of the day and you are fighting a
head wind, having a stiff and effiencent hull makes the difference
between a good and a bad day.

The Super Lynx handles about like a plastic touring SOT, and I would
think that the Solar II would paddle just about as easy. Paddling a WW
IK on flat water gets to be no fun pretty quick, but so does paddling
flat water in a hardshell whitewater kayak. the inflatables that are
designed to handle fla****er paddle as well as everything except true
sea kayaks.

You get what you pay for when you buy IK's.
ybe

deadlizard wrote:
Here's what I took to be the primary criteria excerpted from
the request for recommendation:

"Bottom line: no whitewater action contemplated.

Frankly I'm looking to spend as little as I can, but not buy junk."

Yet the two biggest recommendations out were for the Lynx II
and Super Lynx, which could well be the most expensive IK's
on the market. Excluding any true exotics.


Essentially all the IK's are from 34-40 inches wide. Frankly, I don't
envy the thought of spending a lot of time pushing any of them
around on flat water for a great amount of time.


I think we bias the recommendation based on what we personally would
like to buy, not what might meet his specs. No argument from
me that the Super Lynx is a better boat but I have trouble fitting
that into the "spend as little as I can" category.

Take care.

Gene

I actually do paddle flat water in an IK and the difference between a
boat that is designed to handle that type of water and paddling one
that is designed for whitewater is is pretty extreme. There were a
couple of boats recommended that are designed to handle that task,
specifically the Super Lynx and the Solar II, which BTW is about half
the cost the the Super Lynx. If someone had asked about a hardshell
kayak that was good for lake paddling, I wouldn't have recommended a WW
boat because you could pick one up cheap.

The Super Lynx handles fla****er well enough and has enough capacity
that I have thought about taking it to Boundary Water Canoe Area when I
go again.

Both Bill Tuthill and I are probably both on the more extreme edge of
the IK community and both of us paddle IK's on Class IV+ on a pretty
regular basis ( I paddle regular hardshell kayaks also). I am picky
about the performance of my boats and none of the less expensive boats
really match the performance of the top end boats, the Aires, Airtight
Thrillseekers, or Sotaks. Even the Tomcat, which is one of the few
entry level boats that I would recommend to anyone, doesn't really
match the performance of the Lynx, even though the boats are almost
identical dimensionally, at least to the old Style Lynx I. That may
not make much difference to most people, but when I have to make that
technical move on some Class IV drop, I want that boat to perform as
well as it can and I'm willing to pay extra for that performance. I
feel the same about paddling flat water. When I spend the afternoon
paddling on some lake or slow moving river, I want it to have been a
fun and relaxing experience, and not paddling like it was a slave
galley.

Larry C wrote:
When I spend the afternoon
paddling on some lake or slow moving river, I want it to have been a
fun and relaxing experience, and not paddling like it was a slave
galley.

That's why they invented rafts! Paddle like you were in a slave galley,
complete with the guy yelling you when to paddle harder! ;-)

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

Larry C wrote:

The Super Lynx handles fla****er well enough and has enough capacity
that I have thought about taking it to Boundary Water Canoe Area
when I go again.

That's quite an endorsement! I see the newer models of the Super Lynx
look different from those of many years ago. More aerodynamic.

Larry: any idea why AIRE rates the Super Lynx so much higher than the
Lynx-2 for weight capacity? The boats are about the same dimensions,
the Super being 1.5' longer and 4" narrower. Rated 475# versus 600#.
Do you think it's just because whitewater boats shouldn't sink as far
into the water as fla****er boats can?

Bill Tuthill wrote:
Larry C wrote:

The Super Lynx handles fla****er well enough and has enough capacity
that I have thought about taking it to Boundary Water Canoe Area
when I go again.

That's quite an endorsement! I see the newer models of the Super Lynx
look different from those of many years ago. More aerodynamic.

Larry: any idea why AIRE rates the Super Lynx so much higher than the
Lynx-2 for weight capacity? The boats are about the same dimensions,
the Super being 1.5' longer and 4" narrower. Rated 475# versus 600#.
Do you think it's just because whitewater boats shouldn't sink as far
into the water as fla****er boats can?

Well, a foot and half is a lot of extra boat, but I think the real
reason is that the floor is thicker than in the Lynx. With two people,
you run out of room before you really come close to maxing out the
capacity.

The redesign moved the side tube bladders from side by side to having
the bladders offset and continue through the bow and stern. It makes
for a very stiff boat. The Boat People site claims that they as fast or
faster than most folding kayaks, I really don't have any experience
with them, but I will say it is as fast or faster than most of the
recreational touring doubles. I'm told that some people have problems
with tracking, but I think it tracks great (at least compared to the
Lynx) and handles wind and waves fine.

BTW, headed up to the Lower Gauley this weekend in the Force XL. The
Gauley is a big water Class IV run, at least this section. Next weekend
at Gauley Fest I'm going to break in the Culebra on the Upper Gauley.

Larry

Larry C wrote:
Bill Tuthill wrote:
Larry C wrote:
The Super Lynx handles fla****er well enough and has enough capacity
that I have thought about taking it to Boundary Water Canoe Area
when I go again.
That's quite an endorsement! I see the newer models of the Super Lynx
look different from those of many years ago. More aerodynamic.

Larry: any idea why AIRE rates the Super Lynx so much higher than the
Lynx-2 for weight capacity? The boats are about the same dimensions,
the Super being 1.5' longer and 4" narrower. Rated 475# versus 600#.
Do you think it's just because whitewater boats shouldn't sink as far
into the water as fla****er boats can?

Well, a foot and half is a lot of extra boat, but I think the real
reason is that the floor is thicker than in the Lynx. With two people,
you run out of room before you really come close to maxing out the
capacity.

The redesign moved the side tube bladders from side by side to having
the bladders offset and continue through the bow and stern. It makes
for a very stiff boat. The Boat People site claims that they as fast or
faster than most folding kayaks, I really don't have any experience
with them, but I will say it is as fast or faster than most of the
recreational touring doubles. I'm told that some people have problems
with tracking, but I think it tracks great (at least compared to the
Lynx) and handles wind and waves fine.

BTW, headed up to the Lower Gauley this weekend in the Force XL. The
Gauley is a big water Class IV run, at least this section. Next weekend
at Gauley Fest I'm going to break in the Culebra on the Upper Gauley.

Larry


As a very interested bystander to this thread, I'm wondering about the
super lynx as well. I have the opportunity to float Olympic Peninsula
(WA) rivers for both pleasure and work. (Work-wise, I'd like to be able
to cross rather large rivers occasionally to get to spots with no road
access. Plus haul packs, pumps, tools etc.) The locals warn seriously
against using a canoe. Saying the Super lynx could be usable as in canoe
voyaging perked my ears up.

I'd also like to kayak along the coast with a partner. Nothing major-
just messing around and crab fishing or checking out sea caves. Used to
have a Folbot double and enjoyed it a lot. I have a chance to get a used
Tomcat locally but I'm guessing they'd be pretty useless on the coast. I
need two boats, right?
Thanks much! Soon to be a multiple boat guy, I'm sure...

On 14 Sep 2006 03:22:01 -0700, "Larry C" wrote:

I actually do paddle flat water in an IK and the difference between a
boat that is designed to handle that type of water and paddling one
that is designed for whitewater is is pretty extreme. There were a
couple of boats recommended that are designed to handle that task,
specifically the Super Lynx and the Solar II, which BTW is about half
the cost the the Super Lynx. If someone had asked about a hardshell
kayak that was good for lake paddling, I wouldn't have recommended a WW
boat because you could pick one up cheap.

Whitewater capabilities were specifically excluded from the
boat criteria so everything dealing with it in this thread should
be moot.


The Super Lynx handles fla****er well enough and has enough capacity
that I have thought about taking it to Boundary Water Canoe Area when I
go again.

Likely the only Super on a lake system where there will be hundreds of
canoes. Also likely that a decent canoe coupled with decent paddlers
will be faster, cheaper, and have a higher payload?

I'm not disputing any of your statements. I like the Lynx family and
I too would prefer taking a Super to the Boundary area over a canoe.
There's something about pushing rubber I can't get over.

The question however was what would you recommend for non-whitewater
use that wasn't junk but cost as little as possible. To me, that's
a $400-$500 category and not $1200.


well as it can and I'm willing to pay extra for that performance. I

What would you recommend if that person wasn't willing to pay extra?

Wish I could like Innova, but just can't seem to.

deadlizard wrote:


The Super Lynx handles fla****er well enough and has enough capacity
that I have thought about taking it to Boundary Water Canoe Area when I
go again.

Likely the only Super on a lake system where there will be hundreds of
canoes. Also likely that a decent canoe coupled with decent paddlers
will be faster, cheaper, and have a higher payload?

Double blades give you a tremendous advantage in speed without trying.
The boats that would be as fast with a couple of decent paddlers would
be the kevlar lake touring canoes or even a decent designed glass boat,
neither of which is cheaper by a long shot. I've paddle Boundary Water
a number of times in Aluminum boats and Plastic boats and believe me
that the Super Lynx would be faster and lighter than these. I switched
to renting kelvar boats rather than paddle these boats.

Almost any canoe would have a bigger payload, although most would start
to perform about like a pointy end log when you approach their weight
limit. But I normally do 5 or 6 days in the backcountry with about 100
lbs of gear total, and the Super Lynx would handle that OK. The real
problem would be room rather than weight.


I'm not disputing any of your statements. I like the Lynx family and
I too would prefer taking a Super to the Boundary area over a canoe.
There's something about pushing rubber I can't get over.

The question however was what would you recommend for non-whitewater
use that wasn't junk but cost as little as possible. To me, that's
a $400-$500 category and not $1200.


well as it can and I'm willing to pay extra for that performance. I

What would you recommend if that person wasn't willing to pay extra?

Wish I could like Innova, but just can't seem to.


I really haven't seen a 400 dollar boat that was decent in fla****er,
so I've already given an opinion on what I would recommend for a less
expensive boat, which would be one of the Innovas.

You can putter around on the water on any inflatable kayak, but like I
said, I'm picky about how the boat performs and I want one that is
reasonably suited to the task at hand. Sure, you can buy a Sevylor and
it would work and probably last 5 or 10 years with care, or you can
drop the extra money and get a boat designed for the job and you would
probably never have to replace with even basic care.