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Old August 27th 06, 08:28 AM posted to alt.sailing
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Default keels on old sailing ships

I don't know much about sailing, but I was just wondering what kind of
keels the old sailing ships had (like the Mayflower). Did they have a
distinct keel, or was it just more like an extension of the hull?

I looked at some model ship images, and it doesn't look like there's
enough of a keel to prevent the ship from slipping sideways.
http://www.handcraftedmodelships.com...model-ship.php


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Old August 27th 06, 01:31 PM posted to alt.sailing
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Default keels on old sailing ships

Bucky,

There is may be a alot you do not understand about the entire situation
here.

The fuctional hydrodynamic keel of an old square sailed ship was not
very large, it the external portion of the actual structural keel.
There is a great deal more keel area there than you might expect,
because it does extend the entire length of the vessel. They are often
a lot of area if measured in a side view.

It did not need to keep the ship from "slipping sideways" because the
rig of these vessels barely allowed sailing into the wind at all - by
modern standards.

Matt Colie
Naval Architect, Marine Engineer and Pathological Sailor


Bucky wrote:

I don't know much about sailing, but I was just wondering what kind of
keels the old sailing ships had (like the Mayflower). Did they have a
distinct keel, or was it just more like an extension of the hull?

I looked at some model ship images, and it doesn't look like there's
enough of a keel to prevent the ship from slipping sideways.
http://www.handcraftedmodelships.com...model-ship.php

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Old August 27th 06, 06:05 PM posted to alt.sailing
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Default keels on old sailing ships

Bucky wrote:
I don't know much about sailing, but I was just wondering what kind of
keels the old sailing ships had (like the Mayflower). Did they have a
distinct keel, or was it just more like an extension of the hull?

I looked at some model ship images, and it doesn't look like there's
enough of a keel to prevent the ship from slipping sideways.
http://www.handcraftedmodelships.com...model-ship.php


I liked the other responses. Difference in rigging meant looking for
favorable winds because of the limits of the design.

IMO: It wasn't until the advent of powered flight that the wing
properties of sails was exploited and a lot of inovation took place.

Not a great analogy but you may be familiar snowboards or skiis. The
combination of side cut and flex gives directional control. As one side
comes on edge the other with the opposite cut is off the snow.

Now if you think in terms of the side cut being reversed so you lean to
the outside of a turn you have a sailboat hull.

If you look for some boat builders comments on "chine"line where flat
or rounded section of hull gets vertical you may get a better idea.
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Old August 28th 06, 03:51 AM posted to alt.sailing
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Default keels on old sailing ships

my 2 cents...

I have read and seen models and pictures of boats/ships with "lee boards"...
and the area of the boards is less than the underwater sides of the typical
hulls....
my first sail was with my grandfather, and old salt- in an aluminum boat
(oar/sail/motor) abt 1956... and there was no keel or centerboard- but lee
boards that mounted in the oarlocks... I remember being on a close haultack,
one side running near the4 water, other side wtih bottom mostly exposed...
the lee boards were quite effective.
"Bucky" wrote in message
oups.com...
I don't know much about sailing, but I was just wondering what kind of
keels the old sailing ships had (like the Mayflower). Did they have a
distinct keel, or was it just more like an extension of the hull?

I looked at some model ship images, and it doesn't look like there's
enough of a keel to prevent the ship from slipping sideways.
http://www.handcraftedmodelships.com...model-ship.php



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Old August 28th 06, 03:15 PM posted to alt.sailing
MMC MMC is offline
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Default keels on old sailing ships

I've long forgotten when fore and aft sails really took over but something
that did stick in me wee foggy place is that "old time" sailing peaked with
the clipper ships that were built for speed, up to 17 knots, making trade
runs around the world.
While the marine architects may not have completely understood the principle
of "lift" they were certainly taking advantage of it.
BTW, also as I remember; the clipper ship era ended with the discovery of
steam power and it took nearly a century for sailing vessels to realize
speed like that again.
Square riggers were destined to "run" downwind and had to use the tradewinds
in order to get anywhere.
I'm sure Matt could fill us in and straighten out my babble. I, for one,
would appreciate the history lesson.
MMC

"Rick Cortese" wrote in message
k.net...
Bucky wrote:
I don't know much about sailing, but I was just wondering what kind of
keels the old sailing ships had (like the Mayflower). Did they have a
distinct keel, or was it just more like an extension of the hull?

I looked at some model ship images, and it doesn't look like there's
enough of a keel to prevent the ship from slipping sideways.
http://www.handcraftedmodelships.com...model-ship.php


I liked the other responses. Difference in rigging meant looking for
favorable winds because of the limits of the design.

IMO: It wasn't until the advent of powered flight that the wing properties
of sails was exploited and a lot of inovation took place.

Not a great analogy but you may be familiar snowboards or skiis. The
combination of side cut and flex gives directional control. As one side
comes on edge the other with the opposite cut is off the snow.

Now if you think in terms of the side cut being reversed so you lean to
the outside of a turn you have a sailboat hull.

If you look for some boat builders comments on "chine"line where flat or
rounded section of hull gets vertical you may get a better idea.





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Old August 28th 06, 06:35 PM posted to alt.sailing
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Default keels on old sailing ships

Matt Colie wrote:
It did not need to keep the ship from "slipping sideways" because the
rig of these vessels barely allowed sailing into the wind at all - by
modern standards.


Thanks for everyone's inputs. Basically, I was having a debate with a
friend (both of us don't know much about sailing). He was saying that
the old style sailing ships didn't have keels (in the modern sense,
where they obviously stick out from the hull), and I was claiming that
how can a sailboat work without a keel to keep the motion forward.

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Old August 31st 06, 09:33 PM posted to alt.sailing
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Default keels on old sailing ships

One other of the reasons for that design was they needed to be careened, and
a fin keel would be a lliability.

"Bucky" wrote in message
oups.com...
Matt Colie wrote:
It did not need to keep the ship from "slipping sideways" because the
rig of these vessels barely allowed sailing into the wind at all - by
modern standards.


Thanks for everyone's inputs. Basically, I was having a debate with a
friend (both of us don't know much about sailing). He was saying that
the old style sailing ships didn't have keels (in the modern sense,
where they obviously stick out from the hull), and I was claiming that
how can a sailboat work without a keel to keep the motion forward.





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