Wm Watt wrote:
Michael Daly wrote:
You don't get it, you never will. I'm a structural engineer and I know bad
designs when I see them. Asymmetric joint construction is not good design.

Gee, I got an "A" in engineering math at the UofT but note of that is
relevant to the discussion.

There's a lot more to structural engineering than a bit of math. The essence of
structural engineering is stress analysis and proper design within safety limits.

On plywood panels with epoxy adhesive the plywood breaks before the
butt join. It's stronger than the rest of the hull.

Butt joins on fiberglass and butt joins on plywood are not the same thing. The
difference in strength between the base material and the adhesive is
significant. Plywood is thick and weak, fiberglass is thin and strong. Lapping
a tape over one side of a plywood joint is not going to have the same effect as
doing the same with fiberglass.

As I've already pointed out - if single taped butt joints in kayak seams were
sufficiently strong, we wouldn't see so many failures and so many paddlers
condemn the manufacturing technique. If the joint was sufficiently strong, it
wouldn't be so sensitive to labour and quality of construction as you have claimed.

Mike

Michael Daly wrote:

Butt joins on fiberglass and butt joins on plywood are not the same thing. The
difference in strength between the base material and the adhesive is
significant. Plywood is thick and weak, fiberglass is thin and strong. Lapping
a tape over one side of a plywood joint is not going to have the same effect as
doing the same with fiberglass.

Wood is as strong, pound for pound, as steel. Fibreglass versions of
plywood boats weigh more. Plywood is as strong as fibreglass used on
the same boat design. I don't get your point here.


As I've already pointed out - if single taped butt joints in kayak seams were
sufficiently strong, we wouldn't see so many failures and so many paddlers
condemn the manufacturing technique. If the joint was sufficiently strong, it
wouldn't be so sensitive to labour and quality of construction as you have claimed.

I assume you mean single-sided taped butt joins. (I don't know if it's
proper to call them "scarfs".) Single layer slingle-sided taped butt
joins would problably be okay but if I were doing it I'd use
single-sided double-layer joins, 4" glass over 2" glass. It adds so
little in wieght, cost, and effort.

A lot of experiments have been done in single- and double-sided taped
butt joins in plywood with different adhesives and fibres. People have
built with polyester, epoxy, and polyurethane resins, and glass and
polyester fibre, to my knowledge, with satisfactory results. On the
19-year-old fibreglass kayak in question I'd stick with polyester
(epoxy for those who want to spend more money) and glass fibre.


Mike

Wm Watt wrote:

A lot of experiments have been done in single- and double-sided taped
butt joins in plywood with different adhesives and fibres.

And other people have done the same with different results. However, we are
talking about fiberglass boats here, not plywood. When you load a butt joint in
tension, the asymmetric, single-sided joint will fail with a significant flexure
in the joint. If it is symmetric, double sided, it will be in pure tension.
The difference in strength is considerable. The difference in fatigue
performance is considerable.

Single-sided seams along a sheer line will _buckle_ if the hull is subjected to
serious load - I've seen this happen. It buckles because the joint is not
symmetric. Under those conditions, the single sided joint can split - I've seen
this happen too.

Why do you assume that _your_ experiments count for more than the experience
that many others have had with single-taped joints? Good kayaks use a lapped
and double-taped seam. That is much stronger than a butted joint and much, much
stronger than a single sided seam.

Mike

Michael Daly wrote:

And other people have done the same with different results. However, we are
talking about fiberglass boats here, not plywood. When you load a butt joint in
tension, the asymmetric, single-sided joint will fail with a significant flexure
in the joint. If it is symmetric, double sided, it will be in pure tension.
The difference in strength is considerable. The difference in fatigue
performance is considerable.

Single-sided seams along a sheer line will _buckle_ if the hull is subjected to
serious load - I've seen this happen. It buckles because the joint is not
symmetric. Under those conditions, the single sided joint can split - I've seen
this happen too.

Why do you assume that _your_ experiments count for more than the experience
that many others have had with single-taped joints? Good kayaks use a lapped
and double-taped seam. That is much stronger than a butted joint and much, much
stronger than a single sided seam.

A sheet of paper is also thin enough to fold. Once a tear is repaired
with tape that part is stronger than the rest of the sheet. That's what
you see in a butt join. It's thicker and more rigid than the rest of
the hull. It won't flex. It won't fold. It can take more stress than
the original hull before failing. If the hull's going to fold and fail
it won't be at the butt join.

Longitudinals and butts aren't comparable. Before there was
firbreglass or plywood plank-on-frame hulls would work open along the
seams but not at the butts where the planks were joined end-to-end.
Longitudinals, being long and thin, are weaker.

Butt joins are strong. The reason people scarf plywood and feather
fibreglass is to get sufficient surface for adhesive strength. With
butt joins the whole butt is the adhesive surface. A 2" butt is
stronger than a 1/2" feather. As I wrote, I would probalyhy use a 4"
over 2" butt.

Wm Watt wrote:

A sheet of paper is also thin enough to fold. Once a tear is repaired
with tape that part is stronger than the rest of the sheet. That's what
you see in a butt join. It's thicker and more rigid than the rest of
the hull. It won't flex. It won't fold. It can take more stress than
the original hull before failing. If the hull's going to fold and fail
it won't be at the butt join.

Maybe you should spend a few years learning about stress analysis before making
such ludicrous analogies. You haven't got a clue what's happening in a real
structure.

Mike

Michael Daly wrote:
Wm Watt wrote:

A sheet of paper is also thin enough to fold. Once a tear is repaired
with tape that part is stronger than the rest of the sheet. That's what
you see in a butt join. It's thicker and more rigid than the rest of
the hull. It won't flex. It won't fold. It can take more stress than
the original hull before failing. If the hull's going to fold and fail
it won't be at the butt join.

Maybe you should spend a few years learning about stress analysis before making
such ludicrous analogies. You haven't got a clue what's happening in a real
structure.

Mike

Short of desinging, building, repairing paddling, and sailing in "real
structure"s.
You'd have to come up with something more subtantial than theory and
hearsay to offer worthwhile advice. In a word, take your own advice
above substituting "real structures" for "stress analysis".

Wm Watt wrote:

You'd have to come up with something more subtantial than theory and
hearsay to offer worthwhile advice.

Theory is based on and validated by testing.

In a word, take your own advice
above substituting "real structures" for "stress analysis".

In my case, real structures include ice breakers (finite element analysis of the
USCG Polar Star when it was instrumented for ice forces on an arctic trip in
1981), offshore oil structures in the Beaufort Sea, aircraft (Canadair
Challenger (now Bombardier)) some buildings and lots of other things.

Your experience is playing in puddles with boats that never get tested.

Since you don't even know that a structure without a straight load path _must_
bend, then you don't know anything that justifies your claims to expertise.

Mike