..........that I guess I don't have.

My 18 year old son had the day off from his summer house painting job
because of rain predicted later in the day. So, being a good father I took
him out to the boat for his second "hands on" lesson on operating and
docking the boat. The first one went great, especially the experience he
got docking the boat with a wind pushing him away from the dock. He has
been boating with me since he was a toddler and literally grew up around
boats.

During our first 'hands on' lesson I told him several important things:
Look back to make sure no boats are coming before backing out of the dock;
keep your right hand on the throttle when running in the river to/from the
Lake (all no wake zone but some folks do foolish things on this fairly
narrow river); and, bump the speed up gently when going from idle to 5 mph
no wake speed.

He forgot all those things today.

He also forgot where the trim control button for the OD was, forgot his
USCG Power Squadron operators card and forgot his sunglasses and a hat (it
was hot and sunny). After almost sticking the OD in the mud at a
particularly shallow spot at the entrance to the river from the marina
(because he did not raise the OD before getting to this spot and could not
find the button to do so) he decided that he wanted to go home.

I do not like quitters but today was not going well so I gave in.

I was proud when he got his USCG PS certification over the winter without
any prompting from me. I am happy to teach him everything he needs to know
about this boat, including operating it, anchoring it and docking it so he
can eventually take it out on his own. But he does not take negative
feedback well and neither of us have a lot of patience..........deadly
combinations.

I am not letting him take the boat out by himself (he will be with 2 or 3
friends) until he has operated it with me at least a half dozen times *and*
I am confident he knows what he is doing.

Any suggestions on making this go smoother in the future?

Positive reinforcement and about 800 pounds of patience. Just keep doing it
over and over. Don't get angry that's just a turn off and makes the
pressure on him build. It has to be fun or why do it. He obviously wants
to please you so when he makes a little mistake it probably flusters him and
makes the next mistake more inevitable.

Good luck.

Butch
" JimH" jimhUNDERSCOREosudad@yahooDOTcom wrote in message
. ..
.........that I guess I don't have.

My 18 year old son had the day off from his summer house painting job
because of rain predicted later in the day. So, being a good father I
took him out to the boat for his second "hands on" lesson on operating and
docking the boat. The first one went great, especially the experience he
got docking the boat with a wind pushing him away from the dock. He has
been boating with me since he was a toddler and literally grew up around
boats.

During our first 'hands on' lesson I told him several important things:
Look back to make sure no boats are coming before backing out of the dock;
keep your right hand on the throttle when running in the river to/from the
Lake (all no wake zone but some folks do foolish things on this fairly
narrow river); and, bump the speed up gently when going from idle to 5 mph
no wake speed.

He forgot all those things today.

He also forgot where the trim control button for the OD was, forgot his
USCG Power Squadron operators card and forgot his sunglasses and a hat (it
was hot and sunny). After almost sticking the OD in the mud at a
particularly shallow spot at the entrance to the river from the marina
(because he did not raise the OD before getting to this spot and could not
find the button to do so) he decided that he wanted to go home.

I do not like quitters but today was not going well so I gave in.

I was proud when he got his USCG PS certification over the winter without
any prompting from me. I am happy to teach him everything he needs to
know about this boat, including operating it, anchoring it and docking it
so he can eventually take it out on his own. But he does not take
negative feedback well and neither of us have a lot of
patience..........deadly combinations.

I am not letting him take the boat out by himself (he will be with 2 or 3
friends) until he has operated it with me at least a half dozen times
*and* I am confident he knows what he is doing.

Any suggestions on making this go smoother in the future?

"Butch Davis" wrote in message
nk.net...
Positive reinforcement and about 800 pounds of patience. Just keep doing
it over and over. Don't get angry that's just a turn off and makes the
pressure on him build. It has to be fun or why do it. He obviously wants
to please you so when he makes a little mistake it probably flusters him
and makes the next mistake more inevitable.

Good luck.

Butch
" JimH" jimhUNDERSCOREosudad@yahooDOTcom wrote in message
. ..
.........that I guess I don't have.

My 18 year old son had the day off from his summer house painting job
because of rain predicted later in the day. So, being a good father I
took him out to the boat for his second "hands on" lesson on operating
and docking the boat. The first one went great, especially the
experience he got docking the boat with a wind pushing him away from the
dock. He has been boating with me since he was a toddler and literally
grew up around boats.

During our first 'hands on' lesson I told him several important things:
Look back to make sure no boats are coming before backing out of the
dock; keep your right hand on the throttle when running in the river
to/from the Lake (all no wake zone but some folks do foolish things on
this fairly narrow river); and, bump the speed up gently when going from
idle to 5 mph no wake speed.

He forgot all those things today.

He also forgot where the trim control button for the OD was, forgot his
USCG Power Squadron operators card and forgot his sunglasses and a hat
(it was hot and sunny). After almost sticking the OD in the mud at a
particularly shallow spot at the entrance to the river from the marina
(because he did not raise the OD before getting to this spot and could
not find the button to do so) he decided that he wanted to go home.

I do not like quitters but today was not going well so I gave in.

I was proud when he got his USCG PS certification over the winter without
any prompting from me. I am happy to teach him everything he needs to
know about this boat, including operating it, anchoring it and docking it
so he can eventually take it out on his own. But he does not take
negative feedback well and neither of us have a lot of
patience..........deadly combinations.

I am not letting him take the boat out by himself (he will be with 2 or 3
friends) until he has operated it with me at least a half dozen times
*and* I am confident he knows what he is doing.

Any suggestions on making this go smoother in the future?




Good advice Butch. Thanks!

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 19:42:54 -0400, JimH penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:

.........that I guess I don't have.

My 18 year old son had the day off from his summer house painting job
because of rain predicted later in the day. So, being a good father I
took
him out to the boat for his second "hands on" lesson on operating and
docking the boat. The first one went great, especially the experience he
got docking the boat with a wind pushing him away from the dock. He has
been boating with me since he was a toddler and literally grew up around
boats.

During our first 'hands on' lesson I told him several important things:
Look back to make sure no boats are coming before backing out of the dock;
keep your right hand on the throttle when running in the river to/from the
Lake (all no wake zone but some folks do foolish things on this fairly
narrow river); and, bump the speed up gently when going from idle to 5 mph
no wake speed.

He forgot all those things today.

He also forgot where the trim control button for the OD was, forgot his
USCG Power Squadron operators card and forgot his sunglasses and a hat (it
was hot and sunny). After almost sticking the OD in the mud at a
particularly shallow spot at the entrance to the river from the marina
(because he did not raise the OD before getting to this spot and could not
find the button to do so) he decided that he wanted to go home.

I do not like quitters but today was not going well so I gave in.

I was proud when he got his USCG PS certification over the winter without
any prompting from me. I am happy to teach him everything he needs to
know
about this boat, including operating it, anchoring it and docking it so he
can eventually take it out on his own. But he does not take negative
feedback well and neither of us have a lot of patience..........deadly
combinations.

I am not letting him take the boat out by himself (he will be with 2 or 3
friends) until he has operated it with me at least a half dozen times
*and*
I am confident he knows what he is doing.

Any suggestions on making this go smoother in the future?


Yeah. Call and early end to the debacle. Tough love... as it were,....

Lesson 1
1) Got your power squadron card?
2)) Hat?
3) Sunglasses?

Fine, lesson over.... come back tomorrow with a renewed sense of
responsibility and maturity....
___________________________

Lesson 2
1) Repeat Lesson 1
if not 100%... lesson over, don't continue being an irresponsible
idiot. Get an attitude adjustment and come back tomorrow with a
renewed sense of responsibility and maturity....
else... continue...
2) Show me the power trim....
3) why do we use it... when?
4) Demonstrate use thereof leaving the marina......
Not 100%... Fine, lesson over.... come back to morrow with a renewed
sense of responsibility and maturity....
Hell, Jim, you get the idea....

____________________________

I do not like quitters

Then don't. Who the hell is in control here... and why? It's your
goddamn boat and more importantly your goddamn kid. Do what you have
to do to keep both safe. Consider that what you teach now may, after
your demise, contribute to your grandchildren's and
great-grandchildren's sum of knowledge and safety. "This is what you
grandfather taught me" carries ONE HELL OF A LOT OF WEIGHT.... at
least it does in my family....

deadly combinations.....

NO. NO. NO. Deadly combinations are confidence and arrogance...
something kids have TONS of...... not in an EVIL way... just an
inexperienced and ignorant way.

At the ripe old age of 21, I think this is finally making some sense
to my kid! Experience isn't necessarily something good.... it is
surviving your OWN mistakes and learning from other's mistakes...
whether they survived or not.... USEFUL.... not necessarily GOOD....
definitely, for the survivors... beneficial.....


BOTTOM LINE
______________________________________


As a professional teacher, I give the following advice:

Every teacher must learn that their job is to allow the student to
learn. You can't learn (teach) 'em. It just doesn't work that way. At
best, you facilitate learning!

Students get ****ed off. What? You never had trouble learning
something? Patience of Job..... sure as Hell doesn't describe me OR
my students.... .............OK, let's try again...

Students don't really get as mad at YOU as they do at THEMSELVES....
you are just more convenient to strike out at ..... don't take it to
heart.... they'll thank you in the next decade.... trust me, I've been
doing this for almost 4 decades.....

Keep your eyes on the prize... a competent student...... whatever it
takes. It isn't about you or your fragile feelings.... it is about
their competence and ultimate success.....

__________________________________________________

I know, Jim..... it still hurts, but........ know what? You are the
teacher.........

--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.

Homepage
http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/

Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats

Killer advice Gene! I even had my retired school teacher wife read it and
she agreed with everything you said. Thanks for the kick in the butt and
advice on setting me straight on this!

Butch also offered some great advice earlier.

" JimH" jimhUNDERSCOREosudad@yahooDOTcom wrote in message
. ..

Any suggestions on making this go smoother in the future?


Jim,
Keep it fun. No, I meant to say, keep it FUN!
Positive feedback only; we know when we screw up and we don't really enjoy
being told that we screwed up.
When something goes well, praise.
When something goes obviously awry, ask what he thinks he should do
differently next time. If he's right on the mark, offer positive
reinforcement. If he's close, but there's a better way, let him know what
you would have done.
Don't dwell on anything; kids don't like lectures. Which brings it back to
Keep It Fun!
Enjoy the teaching process and remember that he'll make more mistakes early
and fewer mistakes later.
Oh yeah, show him how to turn the incident into a funny historical anecdote.
I'm done.

JimH penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:
...I am not letting him take the boat out by himself (he will be with 2 or 3
friends) until he has operated it with me at least a half dozen times *and*
I am confident he knows what he is doing.


Agreed. Absolutely no reason why he should expect you to let
him wreck your boat and possibly hurt himself & his friends.

Any suggestions on making this go smoother in the future?



Gene Kearns wrote:
Yeah. Call and early end to the debacle. Tough love... as it were,....

Lesson 1
1) Got your power squadron card?
2)) Hat?
3) Sunglasses?

Fine, lesson over.... come back tomorrow with a renewed sense of
responsibility and maturity....
___________________________

I like that, but it might be a good idea to also do some
book work on the boat if you can't do an on-water lesson.
Have him read & study something about engines, props, 12V
systems, maybe the physics of bouyancy & planing. Engage the
brain. And it's also a way to give a positive reinforcement
when everything else has failed.

Remember, when you want to teach something, always end on a
positive.


Lesson 2
1) Repeat Lesson 1
if not 100%... lesson over, don't continue being an irresponsible
idiot.

Umm, Gene, I agree with your ideas about failure being
anything less than 100% but it really is a good idea to end
on a positive note.


I do not like quitters


Then don't. Who the hell is in control here... and why? It's your
goddamn boat and more importantly your goddamn kid. Do what you have
to do to keep both safe. Consider that what you teach now may, after
your demise, contribute to your grandchildren's and
great-grandchildren's sum of knowledge and safety. "This is what you
grandfather taught me" carries ONE HELL OF A LOT OF WEIGHT.... at
least it does in my family....


I agree. But the most likely result... especially with a kid
who has reached the age of 18 without already being able to
drive a boat like it was second nature... is that both
father and son will give up on the project because it's too
negative.


deadly combinations.....


NO. NO. NO. Deadly combinations are confidence and arrogance...
something kids have TONS of...... not in an EVIL way... just an
inexperienced and ignorant way.


Bingo!

Therefor the MOST IMPORTANT lesson to teach is one of the
few really valuable and universally applicable things I
*did* learn from my grandfather: avoid mistakes!

When your kid is about to do something wrong, don't yell at
him to stop or give him a clop upside the head (unless you
really need to get his attention urgently). Just raise your
hand slightly and say, "Now think for a minute... what
mistakes are waiting for you in these next few minutes?"

In other others, review what can go wrong, or what details
he may have forgotten, BEFORE plunging ahead with confidence
born of ignorance.


At the ripe old age of 21, I think this is finally making some sense
to my kid! Experience isn't necessarily something good.... it is
surviving your OWN mistakes and learning from other's mistakes...
whether they survived or not.... USEFUL.... not necessarily GOOD....
definitely, for the survivors... beneficial.....


Right! "Learn from the mistakes of others. It is impossible
that you'll live long enough to make them all yourself."

Fair Skies- Doug King

Remember, when you want to teach something, always end on a
positive.


Gene Kearns wrote:
I don't necessarily disagree... it would be great if we could all have
that happy feeling all the time, but neither life nor education
assures this outcome.

My point is that if a student shows up totally unprepared, the student
hasn't got their head wrapped around the lesson, yet.

So why don't you just chop his head off and let that be a
lesson for the next student?

.... When my students
show up for shop class with flip-flops, no safety glasses, no ramp
badge, no tools,etc..... the lesson is over before it starts and they
get a chance to go home or do whatever it takes to be ready for class.
Maybe not a positive note, but a learning experience nevertheless.
IMHO, the first lesson is the one about being prepared to learn.


Agreed, and I also have a distaste for the kind of
self-esteem-boosting molly-coddling that seems to take the
place of education in many classes. But the student is
there, why not teach him *something*? And why not leave him
more interested in the subject instead of less, and why not
leave him more motivated instead of less? You catch more
flies with honey than vinegar... besides there should be a
reason why you're the teacher...



If the kid shows up for a boating lesson and hasn't got appropriate
eyewear, credentials, etc. he/she just isn't ready for that lesson....
their mind isn't on the subject.

Agreed. So would it not make sense to say "Well we can't go
out on the boat and give you a hands-on lesson in how to be
a captain, but so that you'll have more background knowledge
of the boat, draw a diagram of the vessel & it's major
operating parts. Label everything with the apporpriate
nautical & engineering terms." Then give him a grade on the
diagram.


.... It would be better for them to come
back when they are receptive to learning....

I disagree... it would be better to help them be more
motivated, to reward whatever positive impulses they have
brought into the picture, and to give them some idea about
just exactly how much there is to learn (thereby subtly
impressing them with the vast gulf between Student & Teacher).


..... Learning is not a
spectator sport.

I like that slogan!

But part of my point is that it's also not a spectator sport
for the teacher.

The old time samurai masters would simply chop the heads off
their failing students. We don't have that luxury today, but
we do have a lot of behavioral psychology tools (mostly just
a formalized & systematized set of rules drawn from common
sense) that work very well.

Regards
Doug King

Gene Kearns wrote:
Great. So, the kid takes the boat out, gets boarded by the USCG,
doesn't have the registration, has 2 people aboard and one life
jacket, and has expired flares. Now, he wants to cut a deal with the
coastie by drawing a picture of an anchor. As stupid as this sounds, I
have seen the logical equivalent from kids out of high school that had
"feel good" teachers.



???

Did I say to let the kid learn the boat's structure &
systems as a substitute for learning how to operate them
properly?

What I sad: the kid is there, and at least somewhat
interested in learning. Teach him *something* even if it's
not actively taking the boat out that day.

I certainly did NOT say "Well, just let him pretend he knows
how to drive the boat anyway."



Gene Kearns wrote:
The next time you get in an airplane, I hope you will consider whether
or not the people that last attached that wing or that engine felt
good about their educational experience or whether they left those
ivory towers with competence and professional demeanor. Hell, it's
your life..... spend it the way you want......



What part of (quote from preceding post):

"Agreed, and I also have a distaste for the kind of
self-esteem-boosting molly-coddling that seems to take the
place of education in many classes."

was not clear? You seem to be arguing with statements I
haven't made.

DSK

Hi JimH,
I believe that there's no one way to suit all student-teacher pair.
Applying generalisation to individuals is perhaps a major root cause of
failures.

Some class teaching techniques are appropriate for classes, you have a
1-on-1 situation which is ideal in many respects, please take good
advantage of this 1-on-1.

Think about asking HIM how he learns best? No good just asking us. He
knows better than we do. You already know that he doesn't take negative
feedback well so give him possitive ones.

Some people are visual and not auditory -like me. If someone goes blah
blah blah at me I don't register, but draw pictures and write text then
I absorb everything. Some people prefer hands-on. Some people can copy
what you do, some, like me, can't copy unless we understand the logic
behind it first. Ask him HOW he wants to be teached. Remember there's
no one way for him either, so some things and sometimes you will need
patience of repetition.

He won't know all about how he learns either so it is a fun challenge
for you. For example, I would have a list of 101 things he needs to
learn, then let him choose what he wants to learn first. You can put
pre-requisites -but always point lessons to the item he picked to learn
about. That's his chosen goal.

(As a relevant anecdote, learning music step by step was no good for
me. Years later a wonderful teacher let me choose, I picked step 32 -a
relatively complex piece, that was my true step 1 to learn everything
else from).

Of course major safety items are non-negotiable.

If you sit down with him and brainstorm (and talk story) a check list
of preparations, then you can get him to own that list. He goes through
the check list BEFORE getting into the car. A list checked, not a
verbal soundwave of instructions to remember with no relevance
whatsoever to day-to-day life.

For most people early learning is best when the person feels 'safe',
incl safe from abuses/talk-down.

Sometimes complete learning comes best when (or only when) the person
is totally in charge. I suddenly became competent as a race yacht
foredecky/bowman when thrown in the deep end as totally responsible for
nighttime races where you couldn't see hardly anything let alone the
colours of ropes.

If you watch him expecting mistakes then he is more likely to make
mistakes.

If you seem superior and talk-down and get-mad then forget it.

I think it is more important to keep good dad-son relationship than to
successfully teach him. He can learn from someone else, but he can't
have another dad.

You can agree that there'll be tussles and just laugh them off, but if
things get out of hand then seriously consider getting someone else to
teach him till he is semi-competent then he can continue with you.

An opinion offerred. Hope it helps someone somewhere...
Solo Thesailor
http://sailingstoriesandtips.blogspot.com

"Solo Thesailor" wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi JimH,
I believe that there's no one way to suit all student-teacher pair.
Applying generalisation to individuals is perhaps a major root cause of
failures.

Some class teaching techniques are appropriate for classes, you have a
1-on-1 situation which is ideal in many respects, please take good
advantage of this 1-on-1.

Think about asking HIM how he learns best? No good just asking us. He
knows better than we do. You already know that he doesn't take negative
feedback well so give him possitive ones.

Some people are visual and not auditory -like me. If someone goes blah
blah blah at me I don't register, but draw pictures and write text then
I absorb everything. Some people prefer hands-on. Some people can copy
what you do, some, like me, can't copy unless we understand the logic
behind it first. Ask him HOW he wants to be teached. Remember there's
no one way for him either, so some things and sometimes you will need
patience of repetition.

He won't know all about how he learns either so it is a fun challenge
for you. For example, I would have a list of 101 things he needs to
learn, then let him choose what he wants to learn first. You can put
pre-requisites -but always point lessons to the item he picked to learn
about. That's his chosen goal.

(As a relevant anecdote, learning music step by step was no good for
me. Years later a wonderful teacher let me choose, I picked step 32 -a
relatively complex piece, that was my true step 1 to learn everything
else from).

Of course major safety items are non-negotiable.

If you sit down with him and brainstorm (and talk story) a check list
of preparations, then you can get him to own that list. He goes through
the check list BEFORE getting into the car. A list checked, not a
verbal soundwave of instructions to remember with no relevance
whatsoever to day-to-day life.

For most people early learning is best when the person feels 'safe',
incl safe from abuses/talk-down.

Sometimes complete learning comes best when (or only when) the person
is totally in charge. I suddenly became competent as a race yacht
foredecky/bowman when thrown in the deep end as totally responsible for
nighttime races where you couldn't see hardly anything let alone the
colours of ropes.

If you watch him expecting mistakes then he is more likely to make
mistakes.

If you seem superior and talk-down and get-mad then forget it.

I think it is more important to keep good dad-son relationship than to
successfully teach him. He can learn from someone else, but he can't
have another dad.

You can agree that there'll be tussles and just laugh them off, but if
things get out of hand then seriously consider getting someone else to
teach him till he is semi-competent then he can continue with you.

An opinion offerred. Hope it helps someone somewhere...
Solo Thesailor
http://sailingstoriesandtips.blogspot.com


Great advice.

I asked him if he learns better by hearing instructions or actually seeing
them done. He is a visual learner and needs written instructions and to see
me in action doing these things. My wife agrees.

So I put together a checklist:

1. Things to study up on before the next lesson.
2. Things to bring when leaving for the next lesson.
3. Things to do when getting to the boat and preparing for departure.

I gave my son a copy for his room and a copy to bring with home on the boat.

He asked me to take the boat out of the marina and onto the Lake during the
next lesson so he can watch me and follow the steps, both as written and as
actually done. I will make sure to follow those steps in the order I wrote
them.

Once we are safely out on the Lake I will shut it down and have him go
through the drill. We will also practice anchoring, including backing into
a beach area, heading back up the river to the marina and then docking it.

I need to continue to praise him for things well done (as I did on our 1st
lesson) and build up his confidence.

Once again, thanks for all your advice.....it was all great!