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Heads on small boats
wrote in message oups.com... JimH wrote: wrote in message ups.com... JimH wrote: You can't. http://www.boatus.org/onlinecourse/R...ect/info4c.htm Jim, you just posted a link to a site that *contradicts* your point! Direct quote from your link: Type One MSDs are treatment systems that reduce bacteria and discharge no visible floating solids. (Not legal in some state boating areas as well. Check local laws before installing. Type One MSD systems, such as a head coupled with a Lectra-San, are legal on vessels less than 65 feet that boat in an area not declared a Federal No-Discharge Zone. The fact is that *properly treated* waste can be discharged in any waters not designated a no-discharge zone. You are correct regarding untreated waste. It cannot be discharged in inland waters or less than three miles offshore. Sorry if I misinterpreted it. I read the table under Sewage System Options to say that it was illegal for Type I or II to discharge even treated waste in inland lakes. Perhaps I need a lesson from Peggy on the fine art and operation of Type I and II systems. I have always had either Type III or portable systems. I have never discharged my waste water tank in the past regardless of how many miles off shore I was. Regardless, I would not think it would ever be advisable to dump treated or untreated waste into the water systems in inland lakes. Part of that depends, I think, on the inland lake in question. If you're going to create a brown haze with even a legal discharge in a 1-acre duck pond, I'd personally recommend not. Same with dockside in a marina, regardless of the body of water in question. But Lake Superior? Maybe a different matter. Riddle me this, (since you live back there in lake country). When the local sewage utility collects and treats flush water from houses (and boats) in your community, what does it do with the liquid volume following treatment? If you don't know, you might want to look into it. I'd personally be very surprised if your sewage treatment plant doesn't drain right back into the same body of water upon which a lot of people boat. (Sometimes back into a stream of water from which people downstream actually drink!) The only difference between waste that is properly treated on board to meet the federal standards and then dumped back into the waterway and waste that is pumped out, directed to the municipal sewage plant, treated to meet the federal standards and then dumped back into the waterway is where it's treated- not whether. You are indeed correct Chuck! Waste water treatment plants in this (and most) areas discharge *treated* waste water into streams which then feed into local Lakes or other large bodies of water. The discharge water is supposed to meet EPA minimum standards. For the sake of argument let's say those discharge standards are met. Fine and good assuming those standards are actually at a level protecting us. Now what happens during maintenance and over capacity situations? These situations happen quite regularly and may be planned or unplanned. You guessed it.............the untreated waste (although it passes through initial filters and *mixers*) goes directly into the stream, river or other body of water you may be boating or swimming on/in. So you riddle me this.........................Why are high bacteria counts normally recorded at beaches along the Great Lakes (or other waterways) after storms or at seemingly inane times? You guessed it! You think you are protected? Guess again! |
Heads on small boats
wrote in message oups.com... JimH wrote: wrote in message ups.com... JimH wrote: You can't. http://www.boatus.org/onlinecourse/R...ect/info4c.htm Jim, you just posted a link to a site that *contradicts* your point! Direct quote from your link: Type One MSDs are treatment systems that reduce bacteria and discharge no visible floating solids. (Not legal in some state boating areas as well. Check local laws before installing. Type One MSD systems, such as a head coupled with a Lectra-San, are legal on vessels less than 65 feet that boat in an area not declared a Federal No-Discharge Zone. The fact is that *properly treated* waste can be discharged in any waters not designated a no-discharge zone. You are correct regarding untreated waste. It cannot be discharged in inland waters or less than three miles offshore. Sorry if I misinterpreted it. I read the table under Sewage System Options to say that it was illegal for Type I or II to discharge even treated waste in inland lakes. Perhaps I need a lesson from Peggy on the fine art and operation of Type I and II systems. I have always had either Type III or portable systems. I have never discharged my waste water tank in the past regardless of how many miles off shore I was. Regardless, I would not think it would ever be advisable to dump treated or untreated waste into the water systems in inland lakes. Part of that depends, I think, on the inland lake in question. If you're going to create a brown haze with even a legal discharge in a 1-acre duck pond, I'd personally recommend not. Same with dockside in a marina, regardless of the body of water in question. But Lake Superior? Maybe a different matter. Riddle me this, (since you live back there in lake country). When the local sewage utility collects and treats flush water from houses (and boats) in your community, what does it do with the liquid volume following treatment? If you don't know, you might want to look into it. I'd personally be very surprised if your sewage treatment plant doesn't drain right back into the same body of water upon which a lot of people boat. (Sometimes back into a stream of water from which people downstream actually drink!) The only difference between waste that is properly treated on board to meet the federal standards and then dumped back into the waterway and waste that is pumped out, directed to the municipal sewage plant, treated to meet the federal standards and then dumped back into the waterway is where it's treated- not whether. That last statement is utterly and completely untrue. Check the standards for wastewater treatment, secondary and tertiary. Here in Rochester, the discharge from the sewage plant is arguable cleaner than the river it goes into. One can not say that for finely ground sterilized stuff from any treatment on a boat. Municipal treatment first settles the solids, then treats the liquid with an activated sludge process to remove organic pollutants. In some places it is further treated to remove Phosphorus. Only then is it discharged. Here is the regulation for Minnesota... Under state law, toilets on board vessels must be no-discharge devices (see exceptions below). Waste must be retained on board for proper disposal after returning to shore. If you have a recreational vessel with installed toilet facilities, it must have an operable marine sanitation device (MSD) on board......Type I and II USCG-certified treatment/discharge marine sanitation devices are currently legal on the Mississippi River below Lock and Dam #2 (at Hastings) and on Lake Superior. This is a result of the federal preemption of state law. MSDs on boats less than 65 feet in length must be USCG-certified Type I or II. del cecchi |
Heads on small boats
wrote in message ups.com... Del Cecchi wrote: Where are you allowed to dump sewage, sterilized and ground up, in inland waters? I am pretty sure that Minnesota is not one of those places. It certainly wouldn't do the lake or river much good. -- Del Cecchi "This post is my own and doesn't necessarily represent IBM's positions, strategies or opinions." Go thou and read the regulations. You may not dump *untreated* sewage in inland waters, or less than 3 miles offshore. You may not dump even treated sewage in a "no-discharge" zone, but absent a local no-discharge law law federal regulations allow you to dump *properly treated* sewage anywhere. Read the law he http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/h...2----000-.html Nothing prevents Minnesota from declaring any or all of its waters a no-discharge zone. Unless Minnesota has done so or elects to do so, it is legal to discharge sewage treated to specific standards of fecal coliform content, etc, into the waters of that state. Surprise surprise surprise. That is exactly what Minnesota has done. How about Washington? |
Heads on small boats
"Del Cecchi" wrote in message ... wrote in message ups.com... Del Cecchi wrote: Where are you allowed to dump sewage, sterilized and ground up, in inland waters? I am pretty sure that Minnesota is not one of those places. It certainly wouldn't do the lake or river much good. -- Del Cecchi "This post is my own and doesn't necessarily represent IBM's positions, strategies or opinions." Go thou and read the regulations. You may not dump *untreated* sewage in inland waters, or less than 3 miles offshore. You may not dump even treated sewage in a "no-discharge" zone, but absent a local no-discharge law law federal regulations allow you to dump *properly treated* sewage anywhere. Read the law he http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/h...2----000-.html Nothing prevents Minnesota from declaring any or all of its waters a no-discharge zone. Unless Minnesota has done so or elects to do so, it is legal to discharge sewage treated to specific standards of fecal coliform content, etc, into the waters of that state. Surprise surprise surprise. That is exactly what Minnesota has done. How about Washington? I looked it up, not as backward as you implied. "When in waters where sewage cannot be dumped overboard (for example, any freshwater body of water), these MSDs must have the "Y" valve secured so that it cannot be opened by placing a lock or non-reusable seal on the "Y" valve or by taking the handle off the "Y" valve." |
Heads on small boats
Del Cecchi wrote: wrote in message oups.com... JimH wrote: wrote in message ups.com... JimH wrote: You can't. http://www.boatus.org/onlinecourse/R...ect/info4c.htm Jim, you just posted a link to a site that *contradicts* your point! Direct quote from your link: Type One MSDs are treatment systems that reduce bacteria and discharge no visible floating solids. (Not legal in some state boating areas as well. Check local laws before installing. Type One MSD systems, such as a head coupled with a Lectra-San, are legal on vessels less than 65 feet that boat in an area not declared a Federal No-Discharge Zone. The fact is that *properly treated* waste can be discharged in any waters not designated a no-discharge zone. You are correct regarding untreated waste. It cannot be discharged in inland waters or less than three miles offshore. Sorry if I misinterpreted it. I read the table under Sewage System Options to say that it was illegal for Type I or II to discharge even treated waste in inland lakes. Perhaps I need a lesson from Peggy on the fine art and operation of Type I and II systems. I have always had either Type III or portable systems. I have never discharged my waste water tank in the past regardless of how many miles off shore I was. Regardless, I would not think it would ever be advisable to dump treated or untreated waste into the water systems in inland lakes. Part of that depends, I think, on the inland lake in question. If you're going to create a brown haze with even a legal discharge in a 1-acre duck pond, I'd personally recommend not. Same with dockside in a marina, regardless of the body of water in question. But Lake Superior? Maybe a different matter. Riddle me this, (since you live back there in lake country). When the local sewage utility collects and treats flush water from houses (and boats) in your community, what does it do with the liquid volume following treatment? If you don't know, you might want to look into it. I'd personally be very surprised if your sewage treatment plant doesn't drain right back into the same body of water upon which a lot of people boat. (Sometimes back into a stream of water from which people downstream actually drink!) The only difference between waste that is properly treated on board to meet the federal standards and then dumped back into the waterway and waste that is pumped out, directed to the municipal sewage plant, treated to meet the federal standards and then dumped back into the waterway is where it's treated- not whether. That last statement is utterly and completely untrue. Check the standards for wastewater treatment, secondary and tertiary. Here in Rochester, the discharge from the sewage plant is arguable cleaner than the river it goes into. One can not say that for finely ground sterilized stuff from any treatment on a boat. Municipal treatment first settles the solids, then treats the liquid with an activated sludge process to remove organic pollutants. In some places it is further treated to remove Phosphorus. Only then is it discharged. I don't think phosphorus is a big problem in human waste. Isn't that more typically a component of detergents, etc? I'm on a low-detergent diet and avoid drinking it as much as I'm able to resist. :-) OK. Now that your municipal sewage plant has extracted the solids from the waste water, what does it do with them? Extracted doesn't mean disappeared, only separated. If Minnesota is like most states, it hauls the solids out into the woods and dumps them into the forest, where they soon wind up back in the water table, anyway. Do they still sell Milorganite? That stuff was all the solids from the sewage treatment system in Milwaukee, Wisconsin bagged up in plastic bags and sold as household fertilizer. Despite the warnings on the bags, people were using it in vegetable gardens and then ingesting high concentrations of all the heavy metals that were originally in the Milwaukee sewers. Here is the regulation for Minnesota... Under state law, toilets on board vessels must be no-discharge devices (see exceptions below). Waste must be retained on board for proper disposal after returning to shore. If you have a recreational vessel with installed toilet facilities, it must have an operable marine sanitation device (MSD) on board......Type I and II USCG-certified treatment/discharge marine sanitation devices are currently legal on the Mississippi River below Lock and Dam #2 (at Hastings) and on Lake Superior. This is a result of the federal preemption of state law. MSDs on boats less than 65 feet in length must be USCG-certified Type I or II. del cecchi Well, there you go. You challenged me to let you know just where you could dump properly treated sewage within the state boundaries of Minnesota, and you have found a very specific answer. As far as treatment standards go, here's an independent study from down in New Zealand that concludes that, when working properly, a Type I treatment system reduces pathogens and viruses in discharged human waste to a level "that does not present a danger to human health". http://www.mfe.govt.nz/publications/...port-jun02.pdf Depending on where you live, there is a very real chance that sewage taken to a pump out station will not be treated at all. Particularly if it's raining. We often have sewage overflows of several million gallons into Lake Washington, Lake Union, and Puget Sound- (but only during our infrequent rainstorms). :-) Every boater in the Pacific NW could move aboard, crap merrily away and flush directly overboard for 20 years without putting as much crud into the water as the sewage overflow during a single heavy rainstorm---*but* that doesn't mean that we should. It does mean that legal, effective, and proper on-board sewage treatment is a very responsible alternative to pumping out. http://www.metrokc.gov/health/hazard/cso.htm#whatis Oh, yeah. One other important thing. All those chemical de-odorizers and "holding tank treatments" the typical boater dumps down the head to try and control the smell? Those are some of the deadliest chemicals you could imagine. Formaldehyde is among the mildest of the ingredients used. Some of those holding tank chemicals are so strong that they have been shown to seriously impair the proper biological function of a municipal sewage treatment plant when pumped into the local system. All of those deadly poisons will flow through the sewer plant and back into the waterway, or be dumped out in the forest to eventually get back into the water table anyway. Use of a Type I treatment system minimizes the need to use these horrible poisons. To be fair, proper installation and maintenance of a holding tank also minimizes the need to use the horrible poisons, but the reality is that the wickedly deadly stuff is flying off the shelf at thousands of pints per summer weekend acrosss the US. Read all about how waste from a holding tank treated with deodorizers and other chemicals can screw up the treatment of thousands of gallons of general sewage at: http://www.blm.gov/nstc/resourcenotes/rn38.html If you want to hold it and pump it into the municipal sewer system, fine with me. But there is no basis for a position that proper operation of a Type I system in an area not otherwise designated a "no-discharge" zone is a less responsible choice. |
Heads on small boats
Del Cecchi wrote: Nothing prevents Minnesota from declaring any or all of its waters a no-discharge zone. Unless Minnesota has done so or elects to do so, it is legal to discharge sewage treated to specific standards of fecal coliform content, etc, into the waters of that state. Surprise surprise surprise. That is exactly what Minnesota has done. How about Washington? ?????????? When did Minnesota do this? In the last two minutes? What happened to, (quote): Here is the regulation for Minnesota... Under state law, toilets on board vessels must be no-discharge devices (see exceptions below). Waste must be retained on board for proper disposal after returning to shore. If you have a recreational vessel with installed toilet facilities, it must have an operable marine sanitation device (MSD) on board......Type I and II USCG-certified treatment/discharge marine sanitation devices are currently legal on the Mississippi River below Lock and Dam #2 (at Hastings) and on Lake Superior. This is a result of the federal preemption of state law. MSDs on boats less than 65 feet in length must be USCG-certified Type I or II. (end quote) I am confused. Either all of Minnesota is a no-discharge zone or it is not. It doesn't matter to me either way, frankly, but it would be useful if I weren't trying to discuss this with a moving target. :-) In Washington State there are very few no-discharge zones (outside of marinas). The biggest source of sewage pollution in Washington State is malfunctioning shoreside treatment facilities- ranging from millions of gallons of sewage overflow from major municipal systems to failing septic tanks at beach front cabins. We just had a rupture in the sewer system up in Port Angeles that put I forget how many millions of gallons per day of raw sewage into the Strait of Juan de Fuca. I'm sure the environmental alarmists were down at the marina the very next day after the break, sampling the water and plotting to blame the high readings on the mere presence of boats in the vicinity. |
Heads on small boats
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Heads on small boats
Del Cecchi wrote: wrote: Del Cecchi wrote: wrote in message groups.com... JimH wrote: wrote in message egroups.com... JimH wrote: You can't. http://www.boatus.org/onlinecourse/R...ect/info4c.htm Jim, you just posted a link to a site that *contradicts* your point! Direct quote from your link: Type One MSDs are treatment systems that reduce bacteria and discharge no visible floating solids. (Not legal in some state boating areas as well. Check local laws before installing. Type One MSD systems, such as a head coupled with a Lectra-San, are legal on vessels less than 65 feet that boat in an area not declared a Federal No-Discharge Zone. The fact is that *properly treated* waste can be discharged in any waters not designated a no-discharge zone. You are correct regarding untreated waste. It cannot be discharged in inland waters or less than three miles offshore. Sorry if I misinterpreted it. I read the table under Sewage System Options to say that it was illegal for Type I or II to discharge even treated waste in inland lakes. Perhaps I need a lesson from Peggy on the fine art and operation of Type I and II systems. I have always had either Type III or portable systems. I have never discharged my waste water tank in the past regardless of how many miles off shore I was. Regardless, I would not think it would ever be advisable to dump treated or untreated waste into the water systems in inland lakes. Part of that depends, I think, on the inland lake in question. If you're going to create a brown haze with even a legal discharge in a 1-acre duck pond, I'd personally recommend not. Same with dockside in a marina, regardless of the body of water in question. But Lake Superior? Maybe a different matter. Riddle me this, (since you live back there in lake country). When the local sewage utility collects and treats flush water from houses (and boats) in your community, what does it do with the liquid volume following treatment? If you don't know, you might want to look into it. I'd personally be very surprised if your sewage treatment plant doesn't drain right back into the same body of water upon which a lot of people boat. (Sometimes back into a stream of water from which people downstream actually drink!) The only difference between waste that is properly treated on board to meet the federal standards and then dumped back into the waterway and waste that is pumped out, directed to the municipal sewage plant, treated to meet the federal standards and then dumped back into the waterway is where it's treated- not whether. That last statement is utterly and completely untrue. Check the standards for wastewater treatment, secondary and tertiary. Here in Rochester, the discharge from the sewage plant is arguable cleaner than the river it goes into. One can not say that for finely ground sterilized stuff from any treatment on a boat. Municipal treatment first settles the solids, then treats the liquid with an activated sludge process to remove organic pollutants. In some places it is further treated to remove Phosphorus. Only then is it discharged. I don't think phosphorus is a big problem in human waste. Isn't that more typically a component of detergents, etc? I'm on a low-detergent diet and avoid drinking it as much as I'm able to resist. :-) OK. Now that your municipal sewage plant has extracted the solids from the waste water, what does it do with them? Extracted doesn't mean disappeared, only separated. If Minnesota is like most states, it hauls the solids out into the woods and dumps them into the forest, where they soon wind up back in the water table, anyway. Do they still sell Milorganite? That stuff was all the solids from the sewage treatment system in Milwaukee, Wisconsin bagged up in plastic bags and sold as household fertilizer. Despite the warnings on the bags, people were using it in vegetable gardens and then ingesting high concentrations of all the heavy metals that were originally in the Milwaukee sewers. Here is the regulation for Minnesota... Under state law, toilets on board vessels must be no-discharge devices (see exceptions below). Waste must be retained on board for proper disposal after returning to shore. If you have a recreational vessel with installed toilet facilities, it must have an operable marine sanitation device (MSD) on board......Type I and II USCG-certified treatment/discharge marine sanitation devices are currently legal on the Mississippi River below Lock and Dam #2 (at Hastings) and on Lake Superior. This is a result of the federal preemption of state law. MSDs on boats less than 65 feet in length must be USCG-certified Type I or II. del cecchi Well, there you go. You challenged me to let you know just where you could dump properly treated sewage within the state boundaries of Minnesota, and you have found a very specific answer. As far as treatment standards go, here's an independent study from down in New Zealand that concludes that, when working properly, a Type I treatment system reduces pathogens and viruses in discharged human waste to a level "that does not present a danger to human health". http://www.mfe.govt.nz/publications/...port-jun02.pdf Depending on where you live, there is a very real chance that sewage taken to a pump out station will not be treated at all. Particularly if it's raining. We often have sewage overflows of several million gallons into Lake Washington, Lake Union, and Puget Sound- (but only during our infrequent rainstorms). :-) Every boater in the Pacific NW could move aboard, crap merrily away and flush directly overboard for 20 years without putting as much crud into the water as the sewage overflow during a single heavy rainstorm---*but* that doesn't mean that we should. It does mean that legal, effective, and proper on-board sewage treatment is a very responsible alternative to pumping out. http://www.metrokc.gov/health/hazard/cso.htm#whatis Oh, yeah. One other important thing. All those chemical de-odorizers and "holding tank treatments" the typical boater dumps down the head to try and control the smell? Those are some of the deadliest chemicals you could imagine. Formaldehyde is among the mildest of the ingredients used. Some of those holding tank chemicals are so strong that they have been shown to seriously impair the proper biological function of a municipal sewage treatment plant when pumped into the local system. All of those deadly poisons will flow through the sewer plant and back into the waterway, or be dumped out in the forest to eventually get back into the water table anyway. Use of a Type I treatment system minimizes the need to use these horrible poisons. To be fair, proper installation and maintenance of a holding tank also minimizes the need to use the horrible poisons, but the reality is that the wickedly deadly stuff is flying off the shelf at thousands of pints per summer weekend acrosss the US. Read all about how waste from a holding tank treated with deodorizers and other chemicals can screw up the treatment of thousands of gallons of general sewage at: http://www.blm.gov/nstc/resourcenotes/rn38.html If you want to hold it and pump it into the municipal sewer system, fine with me. But there is no basis for a position that proper operation of a Type I system in an area not otherwise designated a "no-discharge" zone is a less responsible choice. The sludge is disposed of only on sites that are determined to not allow it into the ground water, not just "dumped in the forest". Why do you have such an attachment to the notion that it is somehow superior to dump sterilized sewage into the water than to treat it? My comments in this thread have primarily been in reaction to your position (as I perceive it) that use of a properly functioning Type I system cannot be a responsible decision and is always an inferior choice to pumping out. We *agree* (important point) that nobody should dump untreated sewage into inland waters or less than three miles offshore. We disagree with your apparent position that small amounts of human waste can only be effectively treated at a municipal sewage plant. Because only very small volumes of material are being treated, and there aren't the soaps, poisons, drain cleaning chemicals, industrial wastes, etc that are present in the city sewer system a properly functioning type I MSD will clean up the discharge to a point where, according to scientific studies previously referenced, it poses "no danger to human health". Is that as pure as mountain spring water? Heck no, but neither is the discharge from municipal sewage plants, particularly on those days when capacity is overwhelmed by a rainstorm. As far as the legal aspects go, it is illegal to dump *untreated* sewage (not illegal to dump sewage) less than 3 miles from shore, in any inland waters, or in any locally designated no-discharge zone. I would heartily recommend that others do as I do and observe the law. |
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