Heads on small boats
 

Hi all,

How do the heads work on smaller boats such as the Maxum 2100SC and other
similar craft ? Do they flush overboard or must you remove the head and
dispose of the waste manually ?

Thanks,

Duke

Heads on small boats
 

"Duke" wrote in message
news:8uEhg.5868$td6.4388@trnddc02...
Hi all,

How do the heads work on smaller boats such as the Maxum 2100SC and other
similar craft ? Do they flush overboard or must you remove the head and
dispose of the waste manually ?

Thanks,

Duke


It will not flush overboard. Depending on the type of head (fixed or
portable) it will either flush into a holding tank that must occasionally be
pumped out or flush into a small holding tank at the bottom of the
(portable) unit that has to be pumped out or manually dumped into an
approved holding tank.

Heads on small boats
 

" JimH" jimhUNDERSCOREosudad@yahooDOTcom wrote in message
...

"Duke" wrote in message
news:8uEhg.5868$td6.4388@trnddc02...
Hi all,

How do the heads work on smaller boats such as the Maxum 2100SC and other
similar craft ? Do they flush overboard or must you remove the head and
dispose of the waste manually ?

Thanks,

Duke


It will not flush overboard. Depending on the type of head (fixed or
portable) it will either flush into a holding tank that must occasionally
be pumped out or flush into a small holding tank at the bottom of the
(portable) unit that has to be pumped out or manually dumped into an
approved holding tank.


Hi Jim,

Thanks. Being new to this arena, where would one find an approved holding
tank ? Is this something that would only be available at a marina ? Would
it be possible to just dump it into your homes waste system. I have a clean
out trap at home with a 4inch pipe as the opening. Seems like I could just
unsrew and dump into there. Or would that make no sense ?

Thanks again,

Duke

Heads on small boats
 

"Duke" wrote in message
news:YGEhg.5870$td6.4381@trnddc02...

" JimH" jimhUNDERSCOREosudad@yahooDOTcom wrote in message
...

"Duke" wrote in message
news:8uEhg.5868$td6.4388@trnddc02...
Hi all,

How do the heads work on smaller boats such as the Maxum 2100SC and
other similar craft ? Do they flush overboard or must you remove the
head and dispose of the waste manually ?

Thanks,

Duke


It will not flush overboard. Depending on the type of head (fixed or
portable) it will either flush into a holding tank that must occasionally
be pumped out or flush into a small holding tank at the bottom of the
(portable) unit that has to be pumped out or manually dumped into an
approved holding tank.


Hi Jim,

Thanks. Being new to this arena, where would one find an approved holding
tank ? Is this something that would only be available at a marina ?

Nomally, yes.

I am assuming you have a porta-potty.


Would it be possible to just dump it into your homes waste system.

That what I have done with porta potties in the past. See my other note
below.


I have a clean out trap at home with a 4inch pipe as the opening. Seems
like I could just unsrew and dump into there. Or would that make no sense
?

Just flush it down the toilet.

So that there is not a large accumulation of TP that could clog up the tank
make sure to use Marine grade TP. Also make sure to mix in deoderizer into
the flush water holding tank.



Thanks again,

Duke

Heads on small boats
 

Duke wrote:
Thanks. Being new to this arena, where would one find an approved holding
tank ? Is this something that would only be available at a marina ? Would
it be possible to just dump it into your homes waste system. I have a clean
out trap at home with a 4inch pipe as the opening. Seems like I could just
unsrew and dump into there. Or would that make no sense ?


We used a porta-potty for years on a small cruising boat and
poured it out into the toilet at home; we're hooked up to
city sewer and it's no problem.

Don't dump it into a system that flushes into a septic tank,
though. Unless you add a bacterial treatment to the
porta-potty tank, rather than sterilizing chemical mixed
with perfume (which is what most people do because it's
cheaper), the stuff in your porta-potty will kill your
septic system DOA.

Jim is right about using marine or camping toilet paper. It
will break down much better. And make sure that it doesn't
get caught in the flush valve, since that ruins the seal.

Many people complain that the porta-potty always stinks, but
this is because of a problem with the way they are using it.
Ours (a Thetford 135) was a well made little unit and even
after a couple of days use, gave off no odor at all.

Hope this helps
Doug King

Heads on small boats
 

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
Duke wrote:
Thanks. Being new to this arena, where would one find an approved
holding tank ? Is this something that would only be available at a
marina ? Would it be possible to just dump it into your homes waste
system. I have a clean out trap at home with a 4inch pipe as the
opening. Seems like I could just unsrew and dump into there. Or would
that make no sense ?


We used a porta-potty for years on a small cruising boat and poured it out
into the toilet at home; we're hooked up to city sewer and it's no
problem.

Don't dump it into a system that flushes into a septic tank, though.
Unless you add a bacterial treatment to the porta-potty tank, rather than
sterilizing chemical mixed with perfume (which is what most people do
because it's cheaper), the stuff in your porta-potty will kill your septic
system DOA.

Jim is right about using marine or camping toilet paper. It will break
down much better. And make sure that it doesn't get caught in the flush
valve, since that ruins the seal.

Many people complain that the porta-potty always stinks, but this is
because of a problem with the way they are using it. Ours (a Thetford 135)
was a well made little unit and even after a couple of days use, gave off
no odor at all.

Hope this helps
Doug King


Thank you both for the comments. I am hoping to buy a boat either at the
end of this year or beginning of next. One of my wife's requirements is
that there be a bathroom on board.

:)

Duke

Heads on small boats
 

Duke wrote:
" JimH" jimhUNDERSCOREosudad@yahooDOTcom wrote in message
...

"Duke" wrote in message
news:8uEhg.5868$td6.4388@trnddc02...
Hi all,

How do the heads work on smaller boats such as the Maxum 2100SC and other
similar craft ? Do they flush overboard or must you remove the head and
dispose of the waste manually ?

Thanks,

Duke


It will not flush overboard. Depending on the type of head (fixed or
portable) it will either flush into a holding tank that must occasionally
be pumped out or flush into a small holding tank at the bottom of the
(portable) unit that has to be pumped out or manually dumped into an
approved holding tank.


Hi Jim,

Thanks. Being new to this arena, where would one find an approved holding
tank ? Is this something that would only be available at a marina ? Would
it be possible to just dump it into your homes waste system. I have a clean
out trap at home with a 4inch pipe as the opening. Seems like I could just
unsrew and dump into there. Or would that make no sense ?

Thanks again,

Duke

Small boats seem to stop for fuel every couple of days- just enough
time for the porta-pottie to become full or the small holding tank
typically found on most small boats to reach capacity. Pump or dump at
the fuel dock. No reason to haul a bucket of sh** all the way home in
your car.

Depending upon where you boat, you may indeed be able to pump
overboard. The crux of the regulation is that you shall not dump
*untreated* sewage into the water in any inland waters or les than
three miles offshore. It's perfectly legal to dump sewage that has been
treated to standards of fecal coliform count and doesn't contain
"floating solids" less than three miles from shore and in inland
waters, but the smaller boats typically do not have the
appropriate systems that will treat the sewage to meet the standards.
(When you pump out,
the contents of your holding tank get treated, and then dumped right
back into the same waters you've been boating in- same as with onboard
treatment).

If you boat in waters where the legality of discharge varies, you will
need a "Y" valve to divert waste to your holding tank when you are in a
no-discharge area. If you are boarded by the Coast Guard, they will
want to see this Y valve secured in the "holding tank" position (a zip
tie is OK) if you are less than three miles from shore or in inland
waters.

With the continuing increase in "no discharge" zones, (places where
local regulations are stricter than federal regulations and it is
illegal to discharge even properly treated waste), I would probably not
bother with rigging for overboard discharge on a small boat.

Heads on small boats
 

On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 18:31:13 GMT, "Duke" wrote:


"DSK" wrote in message
...
Duke wrote:
Thanks. Being new to this arena, where would one find an approved
holding tank ? Is this something that would only be available at a
marina ? Would it be possible to just dump it into your homes waste
system. I have a clean out trap at home with a 4inch pipe as the
opening. Seems like I could just unsrew and dump into there. Or would
that make no sense ?


We used a porta-potty for years on a small cruising boat and poured it out
into the toilet at home; we're hooked up to city sewer and it's no
problem.

Don't dump it into a system that flushes into a septic tank, though.
Unless you add a bacterial treatment to the porta-potty tank, rather than
sterilizing chemical mixed with perfume (which is what most people do
because it's cheaper), the stuff in your porta-potty will kill your septic
system DOA.

Jim is right about using marine or camping toilet paper. It will break
down much better. And make sure that it doesn't get caught in the flush
valve, since that ruins the seal.

Many people complain that the porta-potty always stinks, but this is
because of a problem with the way they are using it. Ours (a Thetford 135)
was a well made little unit and even after a couple of days use, gave off
no odor at all.

Hope this helps
Doug King


Thank you both for the comments. I am hoping to buy a boat either at the
end of this year or beginning of next. One of my wife's requirements is
that there be a bathroom on board.

:)

Duke


Duke, my wife was the same way. Our 21'er came with a porta-potty in the
cuddy cabin. When I said that whichever of us used it had to clean it, we
came to a mutual agreement to remove it. In several years of boating on the
Chesapeake, the lack of the porta-potty has never been a problem.
--
John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

Heads on small boats
 

Duke wrote:
Hi all,

How do the heads work on smaller boats such as the Maxum 2100SC and other
similar craft ? Do they flush overboard or must you remove the head and
dispose of the waste manually ?

Thanks,

Duke


My Sandpiper 565 mini-cruiser sailboat came with a 'MSD'. It has a tiny
holding tank on the bottom that must be pumped out from the deck fitting.

Heads on small boats
 

"Duke" wrote in message
news:RXEhg.11340$9c7.6821@trnddc06...

"DSK" wrote in message
. ..
Duke wrote:
Thanks. Being new to this arena, where would one find an approved
holding tank ? Is this something that would only be available at a
marina ? Would it be possible to just dump it into your homes waste
system. I have a clean out trap at home with a 4inch pipe as the
opening. Seems like I could just unsrew and dump into there. Or would
that make no sense ?


We used a porta-potty for years on a small cruising boat and poured it
out into the toilet at home; we're hooked up to city sewer and it's no
problem.

Don't dump it into a system that flushes into a septic tank, though.
Unless you add a bacterial treatment to the porta-potty tank, rather than
sterilizing chemical mixed with perfume (which is what most people do
because it's cheaper), the stuff in your porta-potty will kill your
septic system DOA.

Jim is right about using marine or camping toilet paper. It will break
down much better. And make sure that it doesn't get caught in the flush
valve, since that ruins the seal.

Many people complain that the porta-potty always stinks, but this is
because of a problem with the way they are using it. Ours (a Thetford
135) was a well made little unit and even after a couple of days use,
gave off no odor at all.

Hope this helps
Doug King


Thank you both for the comments. I am hoping to buy a boat either at the
end of this year or beginning of next. One of my wife's requirements is
that there be a bathroom on board.

:)

Duke


They are easy to maintain and clean.

My wife insisted on one when we bought our 21 foot runabout. I would have
bought one anyway. It is mainly used for #1, but for #2 in the event of an
emergency.

I cannot imagine having a boat without a head accommodation, even a modest
one like a porta potty when taking your wife or daughter out on the boat.

Some guys in this NG recently posted that they are silly and unsanitary.
They make the women on their boat "hold it" when the urge comes while they
travel 1/2 hour back to the dock for a bathroom.

Some really thoughtful guys here. ;-)

You are doing the right thing Duke.

Heads on small boats
 

JimH wrote:
"Duke" wrote in message
news:RXEhg.11340$9c7.6821@trnddc06...

"DSK" wrote in message
t...

Duke wrote:

Thanks. Being new to this arena, where would one find an approved
holding tank ? Is this something that would only be available at a
marina ? Would it be possible to just dump it into your homes waste
system. I have a clean out trap at home with a 4inch pipe as the
opening. Seems like I could just unsrew and dump into there. Or would
that make no sense ?


We used a porta-potty for years on a small cruising boat and poured it
out into the toilet at home; we're hooked up to city sewer and it's no
problem.

Don't dump it into a system that flushes into a septic tank, though.
Unless you add a bacterial treatment to the porta-potty tank, rather than
sterilizing chemical mixed with perfume (which is what most people do
because it's cheaper), the stuff in your porta-potty will kill your
septic system DOA.

Jim is right about using marine or camping toilet paper. It will break
down much better. And make sure that it doesn't get caught in the flush
valve, since that ruins the seal.

Many people complain that the porta-potty always stinks, but this is
because of a problem with the way they are using it. Ours (a Thetford
135) was a well made little unit and even after a couple of days use,
gave off no odor at all.

Hope this helps
Doug King


Thank you both for the comments. I am hoping to buy a boat either at the
end of this year or beginning of next. One of my wife's requirements is
that there be a bathroom on board.

:)

Duke



They are easy to maintain and clean.

My wife insisted on one when we bought our 21 foot runabout. I would have
bought one anyway. It is mainly used for #1, but for #2 in the event of an
emergency.

I cannot imagine having a boat without a head accommodation, even a modest
one like a porta potty when taking your wife or daughter out on the boat.

Some guys in this NG recently posted that they are silly and unsanitary.
They make the women on their boat "hold it" when the urge comes while they
travel 1/2 hour back to the dock for a bathroom.

Some really thoughtful guys here. ;-)

You are doing the right thing Duke.



Here's a picture of my 'VISA' MSD.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...d/Hpim0171.jpg

Heads on small boats
 

Heads on small boats
 

"Del Cecchi" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Duke wrote:

" JimH" jimhUNDERSCOREosudad@yahooDOTcom wrote in message
...

"Duke" wrote in message
news:8uEhg.5868$td6.4388@trnddc02...

Hi all,

How do the heads work on smaller boats such as the Maxum 2100SC and
other
similar craft ? Do they flush overboard or must you remove the head
and
dispose of the waste manually ?

Thanks,

Duke


It will not flush overboard. Depending on the type of head (fixed or
portable) it will either flush into a holding tank that must
occasionally
be pumped out or flush into a small holding tank at the bottom of the
(portable) unit that has to be pumped out or manually dumped into an
approved holding tank.


Hi Jim,

Thanks. Being new to this arena, where would one find an approved
holding
tank ? Is this something that would only be available at a marina ?
Would
it be possible to just dump it into your homes waste system. I have a
clean
out trap at home with a 4inch pipe as the opening. Seems like I could
just
unsrew and dump into there. Or would that make no sense ?

Thanks again,

Duke


Small boats seem to stop for fuel every couple of days- just enough
time for the porta-pottie to become full or the small holding tank
typically found on most small boats to reach capacity. Pump or dump at
the fuel dock. No reason to haul a bucket of sh** all the way home in
your car.

Depending upon where you boat, you may indeed be able to pump
overboard. The crux of the regulation is that you shall not dump
*untreated* sewage into the water in any inland waters or les than
three miles offshore. It's perfectly legal to dump sewage that has been
treated to standards of fecal coliform count and doesn't contain
"floating solids" less than three miles from shore and in inland
waters, but the smaller boats typically do not have the
appropriate systems that will treat the sewage to meet the standards.
(When you pump out,
the contents of your holding tank get treated, and then dumped right
back into the same waters you've been boating in- same as with onboard
treatment).

If you boat in waters where the legality of discharge varies, you will
need a "Y" valve to divert waste to your holding tank when you are in a
no-discharge area. If you are boarded by the Coast Guard, they will
want to see this Y valve secured in the "holding tank" position (a zip
tie is OK) if you are less than three miles from shore or in inland
waters.

With the continuing increase in "no discharge" zones, (places where
local regulations are stricter than federal regulations and it is
illegal to discharge even properly treated waste), I would probably not
bother with rigging for overboard discharge on a small boat.

Where are you allowed to dump sewage, sterilized and ground up, in inland
waters? I am pretty sure that Minnesota is not one of those places. It
certainly wouldn't do the lake or river much good.

--
Del Cecchi
"This post is my own and doesn’t necessarily represent IBM’s positions,
strategies or opinions.”


You can't.

http://www.boatus.org/onlinecourse/R...ect/info4c.htm

Heads on small boats
 

DSK wrote:

Duke wrote:

Thanks. Being new to this arena, where would one find an approved
holding tank ? Is this something that would only be available at a
marina ? Would it be possible to just dump it into your homes waste
system. I have a clean out trap at home with a 4inch pipe as the
opening. Seems like I could just unsrew and dump into there. Or
would that make no sense ?


We used a porta-potty for years on a small cruising boat and poured it
out into the toilet at home; we're hooked up to city sewer and it's no
problem.

Don't dump it into a system that flushes into a septic tank, though.
Unless you add a bacterial treatment to the porta-potty tank, rather
than sterilizing chemical mixed with perfume (which is what most people
do because it's cheaper), the stuff in your porta-potty will kill your
septic system DOA.

Thanks for mentioning that, Doug. It never
would've occurred to me.

DT

Heads on small boats
 

"dt" wrote in message
...
DSK wrote:

Duke wrote:

Thanks. Being new to this arena, where would one find an approved
holding tank ? Is this something that would only be available at a
marina ? Would it be possible to just dump it into your homes waste
system. I have a clean out trap at home with a 4inch pipe as the
opening. Seems like I could just unsrew and dump into there. Or would
that make no sense ?


We used a porta-potty for years on a small cruising boat and poured it
out into the toilet at home; we're hooked up to city sewer and it's no
problem.

Don't dump it into a system that flushes into a septic tank, though.
Unless you add a bacterial treatment to the porta-potty tank, rather than
sterilizing chemical mixed with perfume (which is what most people do
because it's cheaper), the stuff in your porta-potty will kill your
septic system DOA.

Thanks for mentioning that, Doug. It never would've occurred to me.

DT

After reading some of Peggie Hall's (the "Head Mistress") posts and her
articles a few years ago I switched from the chemical (formaldehyde) type
holding tank treatments to Raritan's bio type "K.O." and will never go back
to the smelly blue stuff. Used correctly, it keeps the tank odorless and
naturally breaks down solids and paper. I started using it in the RV as
well with great results.

RCE

Heads on small boats
 

"Don White" wrote in message
...
JimH wrote:
"Duke" wrote in message
news:RXEhg.11340$9c7.6821@trnddc06...

"DSK" wrote in message
et...

Duke wrote:

Thanks. Being new to this arena, where would one find an approved
holding tank ? Is this something that would only be available at a
marina ? Would it be possible to just dump it into your homes waste
system. I have a clean out trap at home with a 4inch pipe as the
opening. Seems like I could just unsrew and dump into there. Or would
that make no sense ?


We used a porta-potty for years on a small cruising boat and poured it
out into the toilet at home; we're hooked up to city sewer and it's no
problem.

Don't dump it into a system that flushes into a septic tank, though.
Unless you add a bacterial treatment to the porta-potty tank, rather
than sterilizing chemical mixed with perfume (which is what most people
do because it's cheaper), the stuff in your porta-potty will kill your
septic system DOA.

Jim is right about using marine or camping toilet paper. It will break
down much better. And make sure that it doesn't get caught in the flush
valve, since that ruins the seal.

Many people complain that the porta-potty always stinks, but this is
because of a problem with the way they are using it. Ours (a Thetford
135) was a well made little unit and even after a couple of days use,
gave off no odor at all.

Hope this helps
Doug King


Thank you both for the comments. I am hoping to buy a boat either at the
end of this year or beginning of next. One of my wife's requirements is
that there be a bathroom on board.

:)

Duke



They are easy to maintain and clean.

My wife insisted on one when we bought our 21 foot runabout. I would
have bought one anyway. It is mainly used for #1, but for #2 in the
event of an emergency.

I cannot imagine having a boat without a head accommodation, even a
modest one like a porta potty when taking your wife or daughter out on
the boat.

Some guys in this NG recently posted that they are silly and unsanitary.
They make the women on their boat "hold it" when the urge comes while
they travel 1/2 hour back to the dock for a bathroom.

Some really thoughtful guys here. ;-)

You are doing the right thing Duke.



Here's a picture of my 'VISA' MSD.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...d/Hpim0171.jpg


Same set up as on our boat. It is there if anyone needs it, especially the
ladies. The cuddy door closes for perfect privacy. ;-)

Heads on small boats
 

Del Cecchi wrote:


Where are you allowed to dump sewage, sterilized and ground up, in
inland waters? I am pretty sure that Minnesota is not one of those
places. It certainly wouldn't do the lake or river much good.

--
Del Cecchi
"This post is my own and doesn't necessarily represent IBM's positions,
strategies or opinions."

Go thou and read the regulations. You may not dump *untreated* sewage
in inland waters, or less than 3 miles offshore. You may not dump even
treated sewage in a "no-discharge" zone, but absent a local
no-discharge law law federal regulations allow you to dump *properly
treated* sewage anywhere.

Read the law he

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/h...2----000-.html


Nothing prevents Minnesota from declaring any or all of its waters a
no-discharge zone. Unless Minnesota has done so or elects to do so, it
is legal to discharge sewage treated to specific standards of fecal
coliform content, etc, into the waters of that state.

Heads on small boats
 

JimH wrote:


You can't.

http://www.boatus.org/onlinecourse/R...ect/info4c.htm


Jim, you just posted a link to a site that *contradicts* your point!

Direct quote from your link:

Type One MSDs are treatment systems that reduce bacteria and discharge
no visible floating solids.

(Not legal in some state boating areas as well. Check local laws before
installing. Type One MSD systems, such as a head coupled with a
Lectra-San, are legal on vessels less than 65 feet that boat in an area
not declared a Federal No-Discharge Zone.


The fact is that *properly treated* waste can be discharged in any
waters not designated a no-discharge zone.

You are correct regarding untreated waste. It cannot be discharged in
inland waters or less than three miles offshore.

Heads on small boats
 

wrote in message
ups.com...

JimH wrote:


You can't.

http://www.boatus.org/onlinecourse/R...ect/info4c.htm


Jim, you just posted a link to a site that *contradicts* your point!

Direct quote from your link:

Type One MSDs are treatment systems that reduce bacteria and discharge
no visible floating solids.

(Not legal in some state boating areas as well. Check local laws before
installing. Type One MSD systems, such as a head coupled with a
Lectra-San, are legal on vessels less than 65 feet that boat in an area
not declared a Federal No-Discharge Zone.


The fact is that *properly treated* waste can be discharged in any
waters not designated a no-discharge zone.

You are correct regarding untreated waste. It cannot be discharged in
inland waters or less than three miles offshore.


Sorry if I misinterpreted it. I read the table under Sewage System Options
to say that it was illegal for Type I or II to discharge even treated waste
in inland lakes.

Perhaps I need a lesson from Peggy on the fine art and operation of Type I
and II systems. I have always had either Type III or portable systems.

I have never discharged my waste water tank in the past regardless of how
many miles off shore I was.

Regardless, I would not think it would ever be advisable to dump treated or
untreated waste into the water systems in inland lakes.

Heads on small boats
 

JimH wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

JimH wrote:


You can't.

http://www.boatus.org/onlinecourse/R...ect/info4c.htm


Jim, you just posted a link to a site that *contradicts* your point!

Direct quote from your link:

Type One MSDs are treatment systems that reduce bacteria and discharge
no visible floating solids.

(Not legal in some state boating areas as well. Check local laws before
installing. Type One MSD systems, such as a head coupled with a
Lectra-San, are legal on vessels less than 65 feet that boat in an area
not declared a Federal No-Discharge Zone.


The fact is that *properly treated* waste can be discharged in any
waters not designated a no-discharge zone.

You are correct regarding untreated waste. It cannot be discharged in
inland waters or less than three miles offshore.


Sorry if I misinterpreted it. I read the table under Sewage System Options
to say that it was illegal for Type I or II to discharge even treated waste
in inland lakes.

Perhaps I need a lesson from Peggy on the fine art and operation of Type I
and II systems. I have always had either Type III or portable systems.

I have never discharged my waste water tank in the past regardless of how
many miles off shore I was.

Regardless, I would not think it would ever be advisable to dump treated or
untreated waste into the water systems in inland lakes.


Part of that depends, I think, on the inland lake in question. If
you're going to create a brown haze with even a legal discharge in a
1-acre duck pond, I'd personally recommend not. Same with dockside in a
marina, regardless of the body of water in question. But Lake Superior?
Maybe a different matter.

Riddle me this, (since you live back there in lake country). When the
local sewage utility collects and treats flush water from houses (and
boats) in your community, what does it do with the liquid volume
following treatment? If you don't know, you might want to look into it.
I'd personally be very surprised if your sewage treatment plant doesn't
drain right back into the same body of water upon which a lot of people
boat. (Sometimes back into a stream of water from which people
downstream actually drink!) The only difference between waste that is
properly treated on board to meet the federal standards and then dumped
back into the waterway and waste that is pumped out, directed to the
municipal sewage plant, treated to meet the federal standards and then
dumped back into the waterway is where it's treated- not whether.

Heads on small boats
 

wrote in message
oups.com...

JimH wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

JimH wrote:


You can't.

http://www.boatus.org/onlinecourse/R...ect/info4c.htm


Jim, you just posted a link to a site that *contradicts* your point!

Direct quote from your link:

Type One MSDs are treatment systems that reduce bacteria and discharge
no visible floating solids.

(Not legal in some state boating areas as well. Check local laws before
installing. Type One MSD systems, such as a head coupled with a
Lectra-San, are legal on vessels less than 65 feet that boat in an area
not declared a Federal No-Discharge Zone.


The fact is that *properly treated* waste can be discharged in any
waters not designated a no-discharge zone.

You are correct regarding untreated waste. It cannot be discharged in
inland waters or less than three miles offshore.


Sorry if I misinterpreted it. I read the table under Sewage System
Options
to say that it was illegal for Type I or II to discharge even treated
waste
in inland lakes.

Perhaps I need a lesson from Peggy on the fine art and operation of Type
I
and II systems. I have always had either Type III or portable systems.

I have never discharged my waste water tank in the past regardless of how
many miles off shore I was.

Regardless, I would not think it would ever be advisable to dump treated
or
untreated waste into the water systems in inland lakes.


Part of that depends, I think, on the inland lake in question. If
you're going to create a brown haze with even a legal discharge in a
1-acre duck pond, I'd personally recommend not. Same with dockside in a
marina, regardless of the body of water in question. But Lake Superior?
Maybe a different matter.

Riddle me this, (since you live back there in lake country). When the
local sewage utility collects and treats flush water from houses (and
boats) in your community, what does it do with the liquid volume
following treatment? If you don't know, you might want to look into it.
I'd personally be very surprised if your sewage treatment plant doesn't
drain right back into the same body of water upon which a lot of people
boat. (Sometimes back into a stream of water from which people
downstream actually drink!) The only difference between waste that is
properly treated on board to meet the federal standards and then dumped
back into the waterway and waste that is pumped out, directed to the
municipal sewage plant, treated to meet the federal standards and then
dumped back into the waterway is where it's treated- not whether.


You are indeed correct Chuck!

Waste water treatment plants in this (and most) areas discharge *treated*
waste water into streams which then feed into local Lakes or other large
bodies of water. The discharge water is supposed to meet EPA minimum
standards.

For the sake of argument let's say those discharge standards are met. Fine
and good assuming those standards are actually at a level protecting us.

Now what happens during maintenance and over capacity situations? These
situations happen quite regularly and may be planned or unplanned. You
guessed it.............the untreated waste (although it passes through
initial filters and *mixers*) goes directly into the stream, river or other
body of water you may be boating or swimming on/in.

So you riddle me this.........................Why are high bacteria counts
normally recorded at beaches along the Great Lakes (or other waterways)
after storms or at seemingly inane times?

You guessed it!

You think you are protected? Guess again!

Heads on small boats
 

wrote in message
oups.com...

JimH wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

JimH wrote:


You can't.

http://www.boatus.org/onlinecourse/R...ect/info4c.htm


Jim, you just posted a link to a site that *contradicts* your point!

Direct quote from your link:

Type One MSDs are treatment systems that reduce bacteria and
discharge
no visible floating solids.

(Not legal in some state boating areas as well. Check local laws
before
installing. Type One MSD systems, such as a head coupled with a
Lectra-San, are legal on vessels less than 65 feet that boat in an
area
not declared a Federal No-Discharge Zone.


The fact is that *properly treated* waste can be discharged in any
waters not designated a no-discharge zone.

You are correct regarding untreated waste. It cannot be discharged
in
inland waters or less than three miles offshore.


Sorry if I misinterpreted it. I read the table under Sewage System
Options
to say that it was illegal for Type I or II to discharge even treated
waste
in inland lakes.

Perhaps I need a lesson from Peggy on the fine art and operation of
Type I
and II systems. I have always had either Type III or portable
systems.

I have never discharged my waste water tank in the past regardless of
how
many miles off shore I was.

Regardless, I would not think it would ever be advisable to dump
treated or
untreated waste into the water systems in inland lakes.


Part of that depends, I think, on the inland lake in question. If
you're going to create a brown haze with even a legal discharge in a
1-acre duck pond, I'd personally recommend not. Same with dockside in a
marina, regardless of the body of water in question. But Lake Superior?
Maybe a different matter.

Riddle me this, (since you live back there in lake country). When the
local sewage utility collects and treats flush water from houses (and
boats) in your community, what does it do with the liquid volume
following treatment? If you don't know, you might want to look into it.
I'd personally be very surprised if your sewage treatment plant doesn't
drain right back into the same body of water upon which a lot of people
boat. (Sometimes back into a stream of water from which people
downstream actually drink!) The only difference between waste that is
properly treated on board to meet the federal standards and then dumped
back into the waterway and waste that is pumped out, directed to the
municipal sewage plant, treated to meet the federal standards and then
dumped back into the waterway is where it's treated- not whether.

That last statement is utterly and completely untrue. Check the
standards for wastewater treatment, secondary and tertiary. Here in
Rochester, the discharge from the sewage plant is arguable cleaner than
the river it goes into. One can not say that for finely ground
sterilized stuff from any treatment on a boat. Municipal treatment first
settles the solids, then treats the liquid with an activated sludge
process to remove organic pollutants. In some places it is further
treated to remove Phosphorus. Only then is it discharged.

Here is the regulation for Minnesota...
Under state law, toilets on board vessels must be no-discharge devices
(see exceptions below). Waste must be retained on board for proper
disposal after returning to shore. If you have a recreational vessel with
installed toilet facilities, it must have an operable marine sanitation
device (MSD) on board......Type I and II USCG-certified
treatment/discharge marine sanitation devices are currently legal on the
Mississippi River below Lock and Dam #2 (at Hastings) and on Lake
Superior. This is a result of the federal preemption of state law. MSDs
on boats less than 65 feet in length must be USCG-certified Type I or II.

del cecchi

Heads on small boats
 

wrote in message
ups.com...

Del Cecchi wrote:


Where are you allowed to dump sewage, sterilized and ground up, in
inland waters? I am pretty sure that Minnesota is not one of those
places. It certainly wouldn't do the lake or river much good.

--
Del Cecchi
"This post is my own and doesn't necessarily represent IBM's
positions,
strategies or opinions."

Go thou and read the regulations. You may not dump *untreated* sewage
in inland waters, or less than 3 miles offshore. You may not dump even
treated sewage in a "no-discharge" zone, but absent a local
no-discharge law law federal regulations allow you to dump *properly
treated* sewage anywhere.

Read the law he

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/h...2----000-.html


Nothing prevents Minnesota from declaring any or all of its waters a
no-discharge zone. Unless Minnesota has done so or elects to do so, it
is legal to discharge sewage treated to specific standards of fecal
coliform content, etc, into the waters of that state.

Surprise surprise surprise. That is exactly what Minnesota has done.
How about Washington?

Heads on small boats
 

"Del Cecchi" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
ups.com...

Del Cecchi wrote:


Where are you allowed to dump sewage, sterilized and ground up, in
inland waters? I am pretty sure that Minnesota is not one of those
places. It certainly wouldn't do the lake or river much good.

--
Del Cecchi
"This post is my own and doesn't necessarily represent IBM's
positions,
strategies or opinions."

Go thou and read the regulations. You may not dump *untreated* sewage
in inland waters, or less than 3 miles offshore. You may not dump even
treated sewage in a "no-discharge" zone, but absent a local
no-discharge law law federal regulations allow you to dump *properly
treated* sewage anywhere.

Read the law he

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/h...2----000-.html


Nothing prevents Minnesota from declaring any or all of its waters a
no-discharge zone. Unless Minnesota has done so or elects to do so, it
is legal to discharge sewage treated to specific standards of fecal
coliform content, etc, into the waters of that state.

Surprise surprise surprise. That is exactly what Minnesota has done.
How about Washington?


I looked it up, not as backward as you implied. "When in waters where
sewage cannot be dumped overboard (for example, any freshwater body of
water), these MSDs must have the "Y" valve secured so that it cannot be
opened by placing a lock or non-reusable seal on the "Y" valve or by
taking the handle off the "Y" valve."

Heads on small boats
 

Del Cecchi wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

JimH wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

JimH wrote:


You can't.

http://www.boatus.org/onlinecourse/R...ect/info4c.htm


Jim, you just posted a link to a site that *contradicts* your point!

Direct quote from your link:

Type One MSDs are treatment systems that reduce bacteria and
discharge
no visible floating solids.

(Not legal in some state boating areas as well. Check local laws
before
installing. Type One MSD systems, such as a head coupled with a
Lectra-San, are legal on vessels less than 65 feet that boat in an
area
not declared a Federal No-Discharge Zone.


The fact is that *properly treated* waste can be discharged in any
waters not designated a no-discharge zone.

You are correct regarding untreated waste. It cannot be discharged
in
inland waters or less than three miles offshore.


Sorry if I misinterpreted it. I read the table under Sewage System
Options
to say that it was illegal for Type I or II to discharge even treated
waste
in inland lakes.

Perhaps I need a lesson from Peggy on the fine art and operation of
Type I
and II systems. I have always had either Type III or portable
systems.

I have never discharged my waste water tank in the past regardless of
how
many miles off shore I was.

Regardless, I would not think it would ever be advisable to dump
treated or
untreated waste into the water systems in inland lakes.


Part of that depends, I think, on the inland lake in question. If
you're going to create a brown haze with even a legal discharge in a
1-acre duck pond, I'd personally recommend not. Same with dockside in a
marina, regardless of the body of water in question. But Lake Superior?
Maybe a different matter.

Riddle me this, (since you live back there in lake country). When the
local sewage utility collects and treats flush water from houses (and
boats) in your community, what does it do with the liquid volume
following treatment? If you don't know, you might want to look into it.
I'd personally be very surprised if your sewage treatment plant doesn't
drain right back into the same body of water upon which a lot of people
boat. (Sometimes back into a stream of water from which people
downstream actually drink!) The only difference between waste that is
properly treated on board to meet the federal standards and then dumped
back into the waterway and waste that is pumped out, directed to the
municipal sewage plant, treated to meet the federal standards and then
dumped back into the waterway is where it's treated- not whether.

That last statement is utterly and completely untrue. Check the
standards for wastewater treatment, secondary and tertiary. Here in
Rochester, the discharge from the sewage plant is arguable cleaner than
the river it goes into. One can not say that for finely ground
sterilized stuff from any treatment on a boat. Municipal treatment first
settles the solids, then treats the liquid with an activated sludge
process to remove organic pollutants. In some places it is further
treated to remove Phosphorus. Only then is it discharged.

I don't think phosphorus is a big problem in human waste. Isn't that
more typically a component of detergents, etc? I'm on a low-detergent
diet and avoid drinking it as much as I'm able to resist. :-)

OK. Now that your municipal sewage plant has extracted the solids from
the waste water, what does it do with them? Extracted doesn't mean
disappeared, only separated. If Minnesota is like most states, it hauls
the solids out into the woods and dumps them into the forest, where
they soon wind up back in the water table, anyway. Do they still sell
Milorganite? That stuff was all the solids from the sewage treatment
system in Milwaukee, Wisconsin bagged up in plastic bags and sold as
household fertilizer. Despite the warnings on the bags, people were
using it in vegetable gardens and then ingesting high concentrations of
all the heavy metals that were originally in the Milwaukee sewers.


Here is the regulation for Minnesota...
Under state law, toilets on board vessels must be no-discharge devices
(see exceptions below). Waste must be retained on board for proper
disposal after returning to shore. If you have a recreational vessel with
installed toilet facilities, it must have an operable marine sanitation
device (MSD) on board......Type I and II USCG-certified
treatment/discharge marine sanitation devices are currently legal on the
Mississippi River below Lock and Dam #2 (at Hastings) and on Lake
Superior. This is a result of the federal preemption of state law. MSDs
on boats less than 65 feet in length must be USCG-certified Type I or II.

del cecchi

Well, there you go. You challenged me to let you know just where you
could dump properly treated sewage within the state boundaries of
Minnesota, and you have found a very specific answer.


As far as treatment standards go, here's an independent study from down
in New Zealand that concludes that, when working properly, a Type I
treatment system reduces pathogens and viruses in discharged human
waste to a level "that does not present a danger to human health".

http://www.mfe.govt.nz/publications/...port-jun02.pdf

Depending on where you live, there is a very real chance that sewage
taken to a pump out station will not be treated at all. Particularly if
it's raining. We often have sewage overflows of
several million gallons into Lake Washington, Lake Union, and Puget
Sound- (but only during our infrequent rainstorms). :-) Every boater
in the Pacific NW could move aboard, crap merrily away and flush
directly overboard for 20 years without putting as much crud into the
water as the sewage overflow during a single heavy rainstorm---*but*
that doesn't mean that we should. It does mean that legal, effective,
and proper on-board sewage treatment is a very responsible alternative
to pumping out.

http://www.metrokc.gov/health/hazard/cso.htm#whatis


Oh, yeah. One other important thing. All those chemical de-odorizers
and "holding tank treatments" the typical boater dumps down the head to
try and control the smell? Those are some of the deadliest chemicals
you could imagine. Formaldehyde is among the mildest of the ingredients
used. Some of those holding tank chemicals are so strong that they have
been shown to seriously impair the proper biological function of a
municipal sewage treatment plant when pumped into the local system. All
of those deadly poisons will flow through the sewer plant and back into
the waterway, or be dumped out in the forest to eventually get back
into the water table anyway. Use of a Type I treatment system minimizes
the need to use these horrible poisons. To be fair, proper installation
and maintenance of a holding tank also minimizes the need to use the
horrible poisons, but the reality is that the wickedly deadly stuff is
flying off the shelf at thousands of pints per summer weekend acrosss
the US.

Read all about how waste from a holding tank treated with deodorizers
and other chemicals can screw up the treatment of thousands of gallons
of general sewage at:

http://www.blm.gov/nstc/resourcenotes/rn38.html


If you want to hold it and pump it into the municipal sewer system,
fine with me. But there is no basis for a position that proper
operation of a Type I system in an area not otherwise designated a
"no-discharge" zone is a less responsible choice.

Heads on small boats
 

Del Cecchi wrote:


Nothing prevents Minnesota from declaring any or all of its waters a
no-discharge zone. Unless Minnesota has done so or elects to do so, it
is legal to discharge sewage treated to specific standards of fecal
coliform content, etc, into the waters of that state.

Surprise surprise surprise. That is exactly what Minnesota has done.
How about Washington?


??????????

When did Minnesota do this? In the last two minutes?
What happened to, (quote):

Here is the regulation for Minnesota...
Under state law, toilets on board vessels must be no-discharge devices
(see exceptions below). Waste must be retained on board for proper
disposal after returning to shore. If you have a recreational vessel
with
installed toilet facilities, it must have an operable marine sanitation

device (MSD) on board......Type I and II USCG-certified
treatment/discharge marine sanitation devices are currently legal on
the
Mississippi River below Lock and Dam #2 (at Hastings) and on Lake
Superior. This is a result of the federal preemption of state law. MSDs

on boats less than 65 feet in length must be USCG-certified Type I or
II.

(end quote)

I am confused. Either all of Minnesota is a no-discharge zone or it is
not. It doesn't matter to me either way, frankly, but it would be
useful if I weren't trying to discuss this with a moving target. :-)


In Washington State there are very few no-discharge zones (outside of
marinas).
The biggest source of sewage pollution in Washington State is
malfunctioning shoreside treatment facilities- ranging from millions of
gallons of sewage overflow from major municipal systems to failing
septic tanks at beach front cabins. We just had a rupture in the sewer
system up in Port Angeles that put I forget how many millions of
gallons per day of raw sewage into the Strait of Juan de Fuca. I'm sure
the environmental alarmists were down at the marina the very next day
after the break, sampling the water and plotting to blame the high
readings on the mere presence of boats in the vicinity.

Heads on small boats
 

Heads on small boats
 

wrote:
Del Cecchi wrote:

wrote in message
groups.com...

JimH wrote:

wrote in message
egroups.com...

JimH wrote:

You can't.

http://www.boatus.org/onlinecourse/R...ect/info4c.htm


Jim, you just posted a link to a site that *contradicts* your point!

Direct quote from your link:

Type One MSDs are treatment systems that reduce bacteria and
discharge
no visible floating solids.

(Not legal in some state boating areas as well. Check local laws
before
installing. Type One MSD systems, such as a head coupled with a
Lectra-San, are legal on vessels less than 65 feet that boat in an
area
not declared a Federal No-Discharge Zone.


The fact is that *properly treated* waste can be discharged in any
waters not designated a no-discharge zone.

You are correct regarding untreated waste. It cannot be discharged
in
inland waters or less than three miles offshore.


Sorry if I misinterpreted it. I read the table under Sewage System
Options
to say that it was illegal for Type I or II to discharge even treated
waste
in inland lakes.

Perhaps I need a lesson from Peggy on the fine art and operation of
Type I
and II systems. I have always had either Type III or portable
systems.

I have never discharged my waste water tank in the past regardless of
how
many miles off shore I was.

Regardless, I would not think it would ever be advisable to dump
treated or
untreated waste into the water systems in inland lakes.


Part of that depends, I think, on the inland lake in question. If
you're going to create a brown haze with even a legal discharge in a
1-acre duck pond, I'd personally recommend not. Same with dockside in a
marina, regardless of the body of water in question. But Lake Superior?
Maybe a different matter.

Riddle me this, (since you live back there in lake country). When the
local sewage utility collects and treats flush water from houses (and
boats) in your community, what does it do with the liquid volume
following treatment? If you don't know, you might want to look into it.
I'd personally be very surprised if your sewage treatment plant doesn't
drain right back into the same body of water upon which a lot of people
boat. (Sometimes back into a stream of water from which people
downstream actually drink!) The only difference between waste that is
properly treated on board to meet the federal standards and then dumped
back into the waterway and waste that is pumped out, directed to the
municipal sewage plant, treated to meet the federal standards and then
dumped back into the waterway is where it's treated- not whether.


That last statement is utterly and completely untrue. Check the
standards for wastewater treatment, secondary and tertiary. Here in
Rochester, the discharge from the sewage plant is arguable cleaner than
the river it goes into. One can not say that for finely ground
sterilized stuff from any treatment on a boat. Municipal treatment first
settles the solids, then treats the liquid with an activated sludge
process to remove organic pollutants. In some places it is further
treated to remove Phosphorus. Only then is it discharged.


I don't think phosphorus is a big problem in human waste. Isn't that
more typically a component of detergents, etc? I'm on a low-detergent
diet and avoid drinking it as much as I'm able to resist. :-)

OK. Now that your municipal sewage plant has extracted the solids from
the waste water, what does it do with them? Extracted doesn't mean
disappeared, only separated. If Minnesota is like most states, it hauls
the solids out into the woods and dumps them into the forest, where
they soon wind up back in the water table, anyway. Do they still sell
Milorganite? That stuff was all the solids from the sewage treatment
system in Milwaukee, Wisconsin bagged up in plastic bags and sold as
household fertilizer. Despite the warnings on the bags, people were
using it in vegetable gardens and then ingesting high concentrations of
all the heavy metals that were originally in the Milwaukee sewers.


Here is the regulation for Minnesota...
Under state law, toilets on board vessels must be no-discharge devices
(see exceptions below). Waste must be retained on board for proper
disposal after returning to shore. If you have a recreational vessel with
installed toilet facilities, it must have an operable marine sanitation
device (MSD) on board......Type I and II USCG-certified
treatment/discharge marine sanitation devices are currently legal on the
Mississippi River below Lock and Dam #2 (at Hastings) and on Lake
Superior. This is a result of the federal preemption of state law. MSDs
on boats less than 65 feet in length must be USCG-certified Type I or II.

del cecchi


Well, there you go. You challenged me to let you know just where you
could dump properly treated sewage within the state boundaries of
Minnesota, and you have found a very specific answer.


As far as treatment standards go, here's an independent study from down
in New Zealand that concludes that, when working properly, a Type I
treatment system reduces pathogens and viruses in discharged human
waste to a level "that does not present a danger to human health".

http://www.mfe.govt.nz/publications/...port-jun02.pdf

Depending on where you live, there is a very real chance that sewage
taken to a pump out station will not be treated at all. Particularly if
it's raining. We often have sewage overflows of
several million gallons into Lake Washington, Lake Union, and Puget
Sound- (but only during our infrequent rainstorms). :-) Every boater
in the Pacific NW could move aboard, crap merrily away and flush
directly overboard for 20 years without putting as much crud into the
water as the sewage overflow during a single heavy rainstorm---*but*
that doesn't mean that we should. It does mean that legal, effective,
and proper on-board sewage treatment is a very responsible alternative
to pumping out.

http://www.metrokc.gov/health/hazard/cso.htm#whatis


Oh, yeah. One other important thing. All those chemical de-odorizers
and "holding tank treatments" the typical boater dumps down the head to
try and control the smell? Those are some of the deadliest chemicals
you could imagine. Formaldehyde is among the mildest of the ingredients
used. Some of those holding tank chemicals are so strong that they have
been shown to seriously impair the proper biological function of a
municipal sewage treatment plant when pumped into the local system. All
of those deadly poisons will flow through the sewer plant and back into
the waterway, or be dumped out in the forest to eventually get back
into the water table anyway. Use of a Type I treatment system minimizes
the need to use these horrible poisons. To be fair, proper installation
and maintenance of a holding tank also minimizes the need to use the
horrible poisons, but the reality is that the wickedly deadly stuff is
flying off the shelf at thousands of pints per summer weekend acrosss
the US.

Read all about how waste from a holding tank treated with deodorizers
and other chemicals can screw up the treatment of thousands of gallons
of general sewage at:

http://www.blm.gov/nstc/resourcenotes/rn38.html


If you want to hold it and pump it into the municipal sewer system,
fine with me. But there is no basis for a position that proper
operation of a Type I system in an area not otherwise designated a
"no-discharge" zone is a less responsible choice.


The sludge is disposed of only on sites that are determined to not allow
it into the ground water, not just "dumped in the forest". Why do you
have such an attachment to the notion that it is somehow superior to
dump sterilized sewage into the water than to treat it? I will agree
that the ocean seems to have the capability to deal with the organic
material with little or no adverse effects. The same is not true of
many freshwater lakes and rivers, which is all we have here in Minnesota.

And since when did the actions of a government entity determine what the
responsible choice is? One can think of examples, for example was Fort
Ord running their raw sewage outfall pipe out into Monterey Bay a
"responsible choice"? It wasn't prohibited by any regulation.

If holding tank treatment solutions are such a problem, why aren't the
plant operators working to get them prohibited? After all, they have to
meet the standards.

--
Del Cecchi
"This post is my own and doesn’t necessarily represent IBM’s positions,
strategies or opinions.”

Heads on small boats
 

Del Cecchi wrote:
wrote:
Del Cecchi wrote:

wrote in message
groups.com...

JimH wrote:

wrote in message
egroups.com...

JimH wrote:

You can't.

http://www.boatus.org/onlinecourse/R...ect/info4c.htm


Jim, you just posted a link to a site that *contradicts* your point!

Direct quote from your link:

Type One MSDs are treatment systems that reduce bacteria and
discharge
no visible floating solids.

(Not legal in some state boating areas as well. Check local laws
before
installing. Type One MSD systems, such as a head coupled with a
Lectra-San, are legal on vessels less than 65 feet that boat in an
area
not declared a Federal No-Discharge Zone.


The fact is that *properly treated* waste can be discharged in any
waters not designated a no-discharge zone.

You are correct regarding untreated waste. It cannot be discharged
in
inland waters or less than three miles offshore.


Sorry if I misinterpreted it. I read the table under Sewage System
Options
to say that it was illegal for Type I or II to discharge even treated
waste
in inland lakes.

Perhaps I need a lesson from Peggy on the fine art and operation of
Type I
and II systems. I have always had either Type III or portable
systems.

I have never discharged my waste water tank in the past regardless of
how
many miles off shore I was.

Regardless, I would not think it would ever be advisable to dump
treated or
untreated waste into the water systems in inland lakes.


Part of that depends, I think, on the inland lake in question. If
you're going to create a brown haze with even a legal discharge in a
1-acre duck pond, I'd personally recommend not. Same with dockside in a
marina, regardless of the body of water in question. But Lake Superior?
Maybe a different matter.

Riddle me this, (since you live back there in lake country). When the
local sewage utility collects and treats flush water from houses (and
boats) in your community, what does it do with the liquid volume
following treatment? If you don't know, you might want to look into it.
I'd personally be very surprised if your sewage treatment plant doesn't
drain right back into the same body of water upon which a lot of people
boat. (Sometimes back into a stream of water from which people
downstream actually drink!) The only difference between waste that is
properly treated on board to meet the federal standards and then dumped
back into the waterway and waste that is pumped out, directed to the
municipal sewage plant, treated to meet the federal standards and then
dumped back into the waterway is where it's treated- not whether.


That last statement is utterly and completely untrue. Check the
standards for wastewater treatment, secondary and tertiary. Here in
Rochester, the discharge from the sewage plant is arguable cleaner than
the river it goes into. One can not say that for finely ground
sterilized stuff from any treatment on a boat. Municipal treatment first
settles the solids, then treats the liquid with an activated sludge
process to remove organic pollutants. In some places it is further
treated to remove Phosphorus. Only then is it discharged.


I don't think phosphorus is a big problem in human waste. Isn't that
more typically a component of detergents, etc? I'm on a low-detergent
diet and avoid drinking it as much as I'm able to resist. :-)

OK. Now that your municipal sewage plant has extracted the solids from
the waste water, what does it do with them? Extracted doesn't mean
disappeared, only separated. If Minnesota is like most states, it hauls
the solids out into the woods and dumps them into the forest, where
they soon wind up back in the water table, anyway. Do they still sell
Milorganite? That stuff was all the solids from the sewage treatment
system in Milwaukee, Wisconsin bagged up in plastic bags and sold as
household fertilizer. Despite the warnings on the bags, people were
using it in vegetable gardens and then ingesting high concentrations of
all the heavy metals that were originally in the Milwaukee sewers.


Here is the regulation for Minnesota...
Under state law, toilets on board vessels must be no-discharge devices
(see exceptions below). Waste must be retained on board for proper
disposal after returning to shore. If you have a recreational vessel with
installed toilet facilities, it must have an operable marine sanitation
device (MSD) on board......Type I and II USCG-certified
treatment/discharge marine sanitation devices are currently legal on the
Mississippi River below Lock and Dam #2 (at Hastings) and on Lake
Superior. This is a result of the federal preemption of state law. MSDs
on boats less than 65 feet in length must be USCG-certified Type I or II.

del cecchi


Well, there you go. You challenged me to let you know just where you
could dump properly treated sewage within the state boundaries of
Minnesota, and you have found a very specific answer.


As far as treatment standards go, here's an independent study from down
in New Zealand that concludes that, when working properly, a Type I
treatment system reduces pathogens and viruses in discharged human
waste to a level "that does not present a danger to human health".

http://www.mfe.govt.nz/publications/...port-jun02.pdf

Depending on where you live, there is a very real chance that sewage
taken to a pump out station will not be treated at all. Particularly if
it's raining. We often have sewage overflows of
several million gallons into Lake Washington, Lake Union, and Puget
Sound- (but only during our infrequent rainstorms). :-) Every boater
in the Pacific NW could move aboard, crap merrily away and flush
directly overboard for 20 years without putting as much crud into the
water as the sewage overflow during a single heavy rainstorm---*but*
that doesn't mean that we should. It does mean that legal, effective,
and proper on-board sewage treatment is a very responsible alternative
to pumping out.

http://www.metrokc.gov/health/hazard/cso.htm#whatis


Oh, yeah. One other important thing. All those chemical de-odorizers
and "holding tank treatments" the typical boater dumps down the head to
try and control the smell? Those are some of the deadliest chemicals
you could imagine. Formaldehyde is among the mildest of the ingredients
used. Some of those holding tank chemicals are so strong that they have
been shown to seriously impair the proper biological function of a
municipal sewage treatment plant when pumped into the local system. All
of those deadly poisons will flow through the sewer plant and back into
the waterway, or be dumped out in the forest to eventually get back
into the water table anyway. Use of a Type I treatment system minimizes
the need to use these horrible poisons. To be fair, proper installation
and maintenance of a holding tank also minimizes the need to use the
horrible poisons, but the reality is that the wickedly deadly stuff is
flying off the shelf at thousands of pints per summer weekend acrosss
the US.

Read all about how waste from a holding tank treated with deodorizers
and other chemicals can screw up the treatment of thousands of gallons
of general sewage at:

http://www.blm.gov/nstc/resourcenotes/rn38.html


If you want to hold it and pump it into the municipal sewer system,
fine with me. But there is no basis for a position that proper
operation of a Type I system in an area not otherwise designated a
"no-discharge" zone is a less responsible choice.


The sludge is disposed of only on sites that are determined to not allow
it into the ground water, not just "dumped in the forest". Why do you
have such an attachment to the notion that it is somehow superior to
dump sterilized sewage into the water than to treat it?

My comments in this thread have primarily been in reaction to your
position (as I perceive it) that use of a properly functioning Type I
system cannot be a responsible decision and is always an inferior
choice to pumping out.

We *agree* (important point) that nobody should dump untreated sewage
into inland waters or less than three miles offshore. We disagree with
your apparent position that small amounts of human waste can only be
effectively treated at a municipal sewage plant. Because only very
small volumes of material are being treated, and there aren't the
soaps, poisons, drain cleaning chemicals, industrial wastes, etc that
are present in the city sewer system a properly functioning type I MSD
will clean up the discharge to a point where, according to scientific
studies previously referenced, it poses "no danger to human health".
Is that as pure as mountain spring water? Heck no, but neither is the
discharge from municipal sewage plants, particularly on those days when
capacity is overwhelmed by a rainstorm.



As far as the legal aspects go, it is illegal to dump *untreated*
sewage (not illegal to dump sewage) less than 3 miles from shore, in
any inland waters, or in any locally designated no-discharge zone. I
would heartily recommend that others do as I do and observe the law.