I'm the type of guy who's better at researching a product than I am at
actually making a decision. I was last here years ago, laughing at the
various debates between Harry and Skipper, since I pretty much believe
in the David Pascoe dogma that a high quality boat is the only kind of
boat you should buy.

But then, like many, I ran into reality. First I thought I'd get a
used boat cheap. But I quickly discovered that the under $5k used boat
market was pretty much a swamp of derelicts uncared for by their
owners, especially here in Pittsburgh, PA, which is not what I would
call a world centre for boating.

If you go up a bit further in price, you find the Ski Nautique brand.
I love the design and construction quality, but they are so specialized
towards skiing that they wouldn't make much of a comfortable, family
oriented runabout I could use to blast around on the river, take
pictures and have guests without the lamentable inhospitality of the
true fishing boat. I asked the Wakeboard crowd about this, and they
suggested Cobalt.

So I visited http://www.cobaltboats.com/ and wow, what a cool company.
But alas, if you go to their cheapest boat, the 200, you get prices
like these:

http://www.cobaltboats.com/model_lin...uipment200.php

So I wound up checking out a new boat dealer that sold Bayliner. I was
prepared to hate Bayliner. I am even on record somewhere deep in
USENET history as agreeing with Harry that Bayliner is not the world's
greatest boat. But at the same time, I am on the river, not an ocean.
On the other hand, I plan to migrate down to Florida at some point and
then maybe I will be on an ocean. So I'd like to have a boat that
could go on the ocean that wouldn't empty my wallet every month.

So I checked out Bayliner's entry level boat and it certainly looked
far better than the old models. The saleslady, a really cool person,
said they were, in fact, better than the old models. It's a pity she
used the argument "They're the most popular boat on the planet! If
they weren't good, people wouldn't buy them?" Try to talk that way to
an Apple computer user who KNOWS everyone buys Windows, and you're not
getting very far :-).

But still, I want to be fair. And lo and behold, even here, I see even
ol' Harry softening his opinion on them. Oh, he growls about the cleat
size, but he seems to have lost a lot of his vim and vigour on the
subject.

I kept on looking, though. There's something notably unappealing about
Bayliner. They don't talk much about quality. The rival dealer sold
Larson, "Better-built boats". So I went to this site:

http://www.everythingboats.com/ryob/...h.pl?type=list

and I'll be darned if half the reviews of Larson were unfavorable and
most of the reviews about Bayliner were raves! Reviews like this are
bound to put you off on a boat:

http://www.everythingboats.com/ryob/...ew&boat_id=326
http://www.everythingboats.com/ryob/...ew&boat_id=282

Well, in the end, I did find the perfect runabout. A little big and a
bit greedy on fuel, and I'm not sure if you can even buy diesel on the
Monongahela River, which might make refueling a bit interesting. But
still, who could resist this one?

http://powerandmotoryacht.com/boatte...02hinckleyT29/
for great pictures, see
http://www.boats.com/sites/hinckley/...hinckley&pic=0

Well, the perfect boat if I had $335,000-odd to spend on a runabout.
And it's sold already! I do admire the Hinckley service organization,
though. Looks like they sell you the boat, if anything goes wrong,
they fix it, they do the annual varnishing and polishing so your boat
will never look old, and then if you get tired of it and want a bigger
boat, they are there to sell it for you. The next owner will get a
service history down to individidual light bulb replacements (stuff
like Replace PAR 16 12v light bulb .... $28.95). I may not be able to
afford that sort of thing, but I admire it enormously.

Okay, back to reality.

If I have aroud $20k to spend on a nice circa 18-20' runabout, what
really are the best quality choices?

What is the difference, in reality, between a $20,000-odd 20' Bayliner
and a $45,000-odd 20' Cobalt?

Thanks for your thoughts!


D

wrote:


Thanks for your thoughts!


D


Check out the Larson & Glastron VEC boats.

Rob

Bayliner quality has improved over the last 5-6 years. The hull design
and quality is as good as most mid-range priced production boats. The
accessories and fittings are less, but adequate quality, too. The
company and their parent corporation, Brunswick, have been evolving and
today are without doubt the most advanced boat building corporation
from the manuafturing and supply chain standpoint. They have
incorporated modern manufacturing concepts such as Total Quality and
Lean Manufacturing, which are key elements that have allowed Toyota to
wipe out competitors such as GM or Ford.

Their supply chain effiiciencies combined with the economy of scale
allows them to make the boats cheaper than the competition. From my
own experience as engineer in a large international company with
state-of-the-art manufacturing system, I estimate that Bayliner can
produce equal boats at least 20 to 30% cheaper than smaller, less
efficient companies. Assuming that they transfer only half of the
saving to the end consumer, and equivalent quality Bayliner costs less
than similar boat from a smaller company. In today's world lower cost
does not mean lower quality. Look at the example of Japanese car
makers, and most recently Korean companies such as Hyundai. They offer
cars which are at least as good, if not better than most US
manufacturers, yet are significantly cheaper. The same applies to
Bayliner.

Are Bayliners best boats? Definitely no, you can find much better,
hand-made, expensive one-of-a-kind boats. But a $20 Bayliner will be as
good, if not better as other brand boat in the $20-25 range.



wrote:
I'm the type of guy who's better at researching a product than I am at
actually making a decision. I was last here years ago, laughing at the
various debates between Harry and Skipper, since I pretty much believe
in the David Pascoe dogma that a high quality boat is the only kind of
boat you should buy.

But then, like many, I ran into reality. First I thought I'd get a
used boat cheap. But I quickly discovered that the under $5k used boat
market was pretty much a swamp of derelicts uncared for by their
owners, especially here in Pittsburgh, PA, which is not what I would
call a world centre for boating.

If you go up a bit further in price, you find the Ski Nautique brand.
I love the design and construction quality, but they are so specialized
towards skiing that they wouldn't make much of a comfortable, family
oriented runabout I could use to blast around on the river, take
pictures and have guests without the lamentable inhospitality of the
true fishing boat. I asked the Wakeboard crowd about this, and they
suggested Cobalt.

So I visited http://www.cobaltboats.com/ and wow, what a cool company.
But alas, if you go to their cheapest boat, the 200, you get prices
like these:

http://www.cobaltboats.com/model_lin...uipment200.php

So I wound up checking out a new boat dealer that sold Bayliner. I was
prepared to hate Bayliner. I am even on record somewhere deep in
USENET history as agreeing with Harry that Bayliner is not the world's
greatest boat. But at the same time, I am on the river, not an ocean.
On the other hand, I plan to migrate down to Florida at some point and
then maybe I will be on an ocean. So I'd like to have a boat that
could go on the ocean that wouldn't empty my wallet every month.

So I checked out Bayliner's entry level boat and it certainly looked
far better than the old models. The saleslady, a really cool person,
said they were, in fact, better than the old models. It's a pity she
used the argument "They're the most popular boat on the planet! If
they weren't good, people wouldn't buy them?" Try to talk that way to
an Apple computer user who KNOWS everyone buys Windows, and you're not
getting very far :-).

But still, I want to be fair. And lo and behold, even here, I see even
ol' Harry softening his opinion on them. Oh, he growls about the cleat
size, but he seems to have lost a lot of his vim and vigour on the
subject.

I kept on looking, though. There's something notably unappealing about
Bayliner. They don't talk much about quality. The rival dealer sold
Larson, "Better-built boats". So I went to this site:

http://www.everythingboats.com/ryob/...h.pl?type=list

and I'll be darned if half the reviews of Larson were unfavorable and
most of the reviews about Bayliner were raves! Reviews like this are
bound to put you off on a boat:

http://www.everythingboats.com/ryob/...ew&boat_id=326
http://www.everythingboats.com/ryob/...ew&boat_id=282

Well, in the end, I did find the perfect runabout. A little big and a
bit greedy on fuel, and I'm not sure if you can even buy diesel on the
Monongahela River, which might make refueling a bit interesting. But
still, who could resist this one?

http://powerandmotoryacht.com/boatte...02hinckleyT29/
for great pictures, see
http://www.boats.com/sites/hinckley/...hinckley&pic=0

Well, the perfect boat if I had $335,000-odd to spend on a runabout.
And it's sold already! I do admire the Hinckley service organization,
though. Looks like they sell you the boat, if anything goes wrong,
they fix it, they do the annual varnishing and polishing so your boat
will never look old, and then if you get tired of it and want a bigger
boat, they are there to sell it for you. The next owner will get a
service history down to individidual light bulb replacements (stuff
like Replace PAR 16 12v light bulb .... $28.95). I may not be able to
afford that sort of thing, but I admire it enormously.

Okay, back to reality.

If I have aroud $20k to spend on a nice circa 18-20' runabout, what
really are the best quality choices?

What is the difference, in reality, between a $20,000-odd 20' Bayliner
and a $45,000-odd 20' Cobalt?

Thanks for your thoughts!


D

wrote:


What is the difference, in reality, between a $20,000-odd 20' Bayliner
and a $45,000-odd 20' Cobalt?

$25,000 odd dollars.

Now that the smart ass remark is out of my system, you are unlikely to
actually *need* any of the obviously more refined fit and finish, more
bulletproof layup, or the better systems choices you would gain by
choosing the Cobalt.
Enjoy them? Yes, you would, along with an increased pride of ownership
and better resale value. Based on the usage you describe, the 20-foot
Bayliner will probably prove as safe and capable as the 20-foot Cobalt.
Engine reliability will of course be about the same, assuming identical
power trains.

There is more *value* in the Cobalt. Whether that value is sufficient
to inspire you to reach $25,000 deeper into your pocket is an
individual decision, and there is no universal right or wrong answer. A
gazillion people enjoy boating in a Bayliner, and the company's owner
retention rate at trade-up time is one of the highest in the industry.
(disclosu some wags will dismiss the owner retention rate and claim
that "no competing dealer wants a POS Bayliner on his lot- they have to
trade them in at a Bayliner dealer because nobody else wants one!"
That, is nonsense).

A whole lot of people buy new Mercedes Benz who could very capably sit
in the rush hour traffic during that daily commute to the office in a
Chevrolet. Those folks would get a lot more car with the Benz- but they
probably don't really *need* one- "want" and "afford" become big
factors.

Last year my admiral and I were in the market for a new boat, we looked at
the Glastron,Seeray, Tahoe, and Bayliner. all in the 10-18k range. All the
boats were approx 18ft. We chose the Bayliner 175. $11,500 for boat and
trailer. It is a VERY basic boat, but for what we do thats actually a good
thing. Did we get the fancy interior of the other boats? No, but we did get
a very user friendly interior. Did we get the fancy clamshell engine cover
with the gas operated lift? Nope on that as well, the engine cover lifts out
and you put it to the side.
What we did get was a very basic boat that meets all coast gaurd guidelines
that sees all the same scenery that the more expensive boats see's. It has
the Merc 3.0 and alpha drive, the same engine/drive combo that just about
all the other boats have.
We are very happy with this boat, Starts right up, goes about 45mph, doesnt
burn much gas, handles well and rides good for a 17.5 boat.
If your looking to spend money on a new boat, you really cant beat the
Bayliner line. What they do is design a boat that has all the BASICS in it.
You ask what the difference is between a 20k bayliner and a 45k other brand.
Well its not the engines/outdrives., Nowadays its either Volvopenta or Merc.
Its the extras that the other brands put into thier boats. We didnot get a
radio in our boat, nor a depth finder, nor a bimini top (I REALLY got to get
one this year). It didnt come with the laminate wood dashboard, the gas
operated lift mechanicals for the engine hatch, the fiberglass covered
floor. But it did come with a gelcoated dash, removable engine hatch ,
carpeted floor. As stated its a basic boat. The extras are very nice but you
have to pay for them.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm the type of guy who's better at researching a product than I am at
actually making a decision. I was last here years ago, laughing at the
various debates between Harry and Skipper, since I pretty much believe
in the David Pascoe dogma that a high quality boat is the only kind of
boat you should buy.

But then, like many, I ran into reality. First I thought I'd get a
used boat cheap. But I quickly discovered that the under $5k used boat
market was pretty much a swamp of derelicts uncared for by their
owners, especially here in Pittsburgh, PA, which is not what I would
call a world centre for boating.

If you go up a bit further in price, you find the Ski Nautique brand.
I love the design and construction quality, but they are so specialized
towards skiing that they wouldn't make much of a comfortable, family
oriented runabout I could use to blast around on the river, take
pictures and have guests without the lamentable inhospitality of the
true fishing boat. I asked the Wakeboard crowd about this, and they
suggested Cobalt.

So I visited http://www.cobaltboats.com/ and wow, what a cool company.
But alas, if you go to their cheapest boat, the 200, you get prices
like these:

http://www.cobaltboats.com/model_lin...uipment200.php

So I wound up checking out a new boat dealer that sold Bayliner. I was
prepared to hate Bayliner. I am even on record somewhere deep in
USENET history as agreeing with Harry that Bayliner is not the world's
greatest boat. But at the same time, I am on the river, not an ocean.
On the other hand, I plan to migrate down to Florida at some point and
then maybe I will be on an ocean. So I'd like to have a boat that
could go on the ocean that wouldn't empty my wallet every month.

So I checked out Bayliner's entry level boat and it certainly looked
far better than the old models. The saleslady, a really cool person,
said they were, in fact, better than the old models. It's a pity she
used the argument "They're the most popular boat on the planet! If
they weren't good, people wouldn't buy them?" Try to talk that way to
an Apple computer user who KNOWS everyone buys Windows, and you're not
getting very far :-).

But still, I want to be fair. And lo and behold, even here, I see even
ol' Harry softening his opinion on them. Oh, he growls about the cleat
size, but he seems to have lost a lot of his vim and vigour on the
subject.

I kept on looking, though. There's something notably unappealing about
Bayliner. They don't talk much about quality. The rival dealer sold
Larson, "Better-built boats". So I went to this site:

http://www.everythingboats.com/ryob/...h.pl?type=list

and I'll be darned if half the reviews of Larson were unfavorable and
most of the reviews about Bayliner were raves! Reviews like this are
bound to put you off on a boat:

http://www.everythingboats.com/ryob/...ew&boat_id=326
http://www.everythingboats.com/ryob/...ew&boat_id=282

Well, in the end, I did find the perfect runabout. A little big and a
bit greedy on fuel, and I'm not sure if you can even buy diesel on the
Monongahela River, which might make refueling a bit interesting. But
still, who could resist this one?

http://powerandmotoryacht.com/boatte...02hinckleyT29/
for great pictures, see

http://www.boats.com/sites/hinckley/...hinckley&pic=0

Well, the perfect boat if I had $335,000-odd to spend on a runabout.
And it's sold already! I do admire the Hinckley service organization,
though. Looks like they sell you the boat, if anything goes wrong,
they fix it, they do the annual varnishing and polishing so your boat
will never look old, and then if you get tired of it and want a bigger
boat, they are there to sell it for you. The next owner will get a
service history down to individidual light bulb replacements (stuff
like Replace PAR 16 12v light bulb .... $28.95). I may not be able to
afford that sort of thing, but I admire it enormously.

Okay, back to reality.

If I have aroud $20k to spend on a nice circa 18-20' runabout, what
really are the best quality choices?

What is the difference, in reality, between a $20,000-odd 20' Bayliner
and a $45,000-odd 20' Cobalt?

Thanks for your thoughts!


D

Harry Krause wrote:


If by ocean, you mean a mile or so offshore on decent days and you are
familiar with Florida's weather patterns, there's nothing wrong with an
ocean-sized Bayliner of 20 or more feet.

That is how the "average" family boater wants to use the boat. As you
emphasized, Florida's weather pattern can make for drastic and rather
fast changes in the weather. Even if you are only 1 mile off shore, you
really have to keep an eye on the horizon and listen to the NOAA weather
station.

While Florida is notorious for fast changing weather, summer is ripe for
afternoon Thunderstorms with high winds and wind shear. We have had
"Thunderstorms" flip houseboats on our lake.
--
Reggie

That's my story and I am sticking to it.

seeray28(steve) wrote:
Last year my admiral and I were in the market for a new boat, we looked at
the Glastron,Seeray, Tahoe, and Bayliner. all in the 10-18k range. All the
boats were approx 18ft. We chose the Bayliner 175. $11,500 for boat and
trailer. It is a VERY basic boat, but for what we do thats actually a good
thing. Did we get the fancy interior of the other boats? No, but we did get
a very user friendly interior. Did we get the fancy clamshell engine cover
with the gas operated lift? Nope on that as well, the engine cover lifts out
and you put it to the side.
What we did get was a very basic boat that meets all coast gaurd guidelines
that sees all the same scenery that the more expensive boats see's. It has
the Merc 3.0 and alpha drive, the same engine/drive combo that just about
all the other boats have.
We are very happy with this boat, Starts right up, goes about 45mph, doesnt
burn much gas, handles well and rides good for a 17.5 boat.
If your looking to spend money on a new boat, you really cant beat the
Bayliner line. What they do is design a boat that has all the BASICS in it.
You ask what the difference is between a 20k bayliner and a 45k other brand.
Well its not the engines/outdrives., Nowadays its either Volvopenta or Merc.
Its the extras that the other brands put into thier boats. We didnot get a
radio in our boat, nor a depth finder, nor a bimini top (I REALLY got to get
one this year). It didnt come with the laminate wood dashboard, the gas
operated lift mechanicals for the engine hatch, the fiberglass covered
floor. But it did come with a gelcoated dash, removable engine hatch ,
carpeted floor. As stated its a basic boat. The extras are very nice but you
have to pay for them.


Keep it simple! I've never owned a car with power windows/locks etc.
As long as your arms work...why pay extra for mechanical/electrical
systems that can fail & might be expensive to replace.

Don White wrote:
seeray28(steve) wrote:
Last year my admiral and I were in the market for a new boat, we
looked at
the Glastron,Seeray, Tahoe, and Bayliner. all in the 10-18k range. All
the
boats were approx 18ft. We chose the Bayliner 175. $11,500 for boat and
trailer. It is a VERY basic boat, but for what we do thats actually a
good
thing. Did we get the fancy interior of the other boats? No, but we
did get
a very user friendly interior. Did we get the fancy clamshell engine
cover
with the gas operated lift? Nope on that as well, the engine cover
lifts out
and you put it to the side.
What we did get was a very basic boat that meets all coast gaurd
guidelines
that sees all the same scenery that the more expensive boats see's. It
has
the Merc 3.0 and alpha drive, the same engine/drive combo that just about
all the other boats have.
We are very happy with this boat, Starts right up, goes about 45mph,
doesnt
burn much gas, handles well and rides good for a 17.5 boat.
If your looking to spend money on a new boat, you really cant beat the
Bayliner line. What they do is design a boat that has all the BASICS
in it.
You ask what the difference is between a 20k bayliner and a 45k other
brand.
Well its not the engines/outdrives., Nowadays its either Volvopenta or
Merc.
Its the extras that the other brands put into thier boats. We didnot
get a
radio in our boat, nor a depth finder, nor a bimini top (I REALLY got
to get
one this year). It didnt come with the laminate wood dashboard, the gas
operated lift mechanicals for the engine hatch, the fiberglass covered
floor. But it did come with a gelcoated dash, removable engine hatch ,
carpeted floor. As stated its a basic boat. The extras are very nice
but you
have to pay for them.


Keep it simple! I've never owned a car with power windows/locks etc.
As long as your arms work...why pay extra for mechanical/electrical
systems that can fail & might be expensive to replace.
Don,

While in principle I agree with you, especially on a boat exposed to the
elements, I didn't even know they still made cars without power windows
and door locks.

With boats and cars, I would seriously consider buying the popular
options, even if it was not a high priority to me, if I was considering
the resale value of the boat/car. If you plan on keeping the boat/car
till it is ready for the scrap heap, it is not important.

--
Reggie

That's my story and I am sticking to it.

Reginald P. Smithers wrote:
Don White wrote:

seeray28(steve) wrote:

Last year my admiral and I were in the market for a new boat, we
looked at
the Glastron,Seeray, Tahoe, and Bayliner. all in the 10-18k range.
All the
boats were approx 18ft. We chose the Bayliner 175. $11,500 for boat and
trailer. It is a VERY basic boat, but for what we do thats actually a
good
thing. Did we get the fancy interior of the other boats? No, but we
did get
a very user friendly interior. Did we get the fancy clamshell engine
cover
with the gas operated lift? Nope on that as well, the engine cover
lifts out
and you put it to the side.
What we did get was a very basic boat that meets all coast gaurd
guidelines
that sees all the same scenery that the more expensive boats see's.
It has
the Merc 3.0 and alpha drive, the same engine/drive combo that just
about
all the other boats have.
We are very happy with this boat, Starts right up, goes about 45mph,
doesnt
burn much gas, handles well and rides good for a 17.5 boat.
If your looking to spend money on a new boat, you really cant beat the
Bayliner line. What they do is design a boat that has all the BASICS
in it.
You ask what the difference is between a 20k bayliner and a 45k other
brand.
Well its not the engines/outdrives., Nowadays its either Volvopenta
or Merc.
Its the extras that the other brands put into thier boats. We didnot
get a
radio in our boat, nor a depth finder, nor a bimini top (I REALLY got
to get
one this year). It didnt come with the laminate wood dashboard, the gas
operated lift mechanicals for the engine hatch, the fiberglass covered
floor. But it did come with a gelcoated dash, removable engine hatch ,
carpeted floor. As stated its a basic boat. The extras are very nice
but you
have to pay for them.


Keep it simple! I've never owned a car with power windows/locks etc.
As long as your arms work...why pay extra for mechanical/electrical
systems that can fail & might be expensive to replace.

Don,

While in principle I agree with you, especially on a boat exposed to the
elements, I didn't even know they still made cars without power windows
and door locks.

With boats and cars, I would seriously consider buying the popular
options, even if it was not a high priority to me, if I was considering
the resale value of the boat/car. If you plan on keeping the boat/car
till it is ready for the scrap heap, it is not important.

My 2 month old 2006 Ford Ranger 'Sport' Super Cab has roll up windows
and manual locks. 1995 mini-van...same.

"Don White" wrote in message
...
Reginald P. Smithers wrote:
Don White wrote:

seeray28(steve) wrote:

Last year my admiral and I were in the market for a new boat, we looked
at
the Glastron,Seeray, Tahoe, and Bayliner. all in the 10-18k range. All
the
boats were approx 18ft. We chose the Bayliner 175. $11,500 for boat and
trailer. It is a VERY basic boat, but for what we do thats actually a
good
thing. Did we get the fancy interior of the other boats? No, but we
did get
a very user friendly interior. Did we get the fancy clamshell engine
cover
with the gas operated lift? Nope on that as well, the engine cover
lifts out
and you put it to the side.
What we did get was a very basic boat that meets all coast gaurd
guidelines
that sees all the same scenery that the more expensive boats see's. It
has
the Merc 3.0 and alpha drive, the same engine/drive combo that just
about
all the other boats have.
We are very happy with this boat, Starts right up, goes about 45mph,
doesnt
burn much gas, handles well and rides good for a 17.5 boat.
If your looking to spend money on a new boat, you really cant beat the
Bayliner line. What they do is design a boat that has all the BASICS in
it.
You ask what the difference is between a 20k bayliner and a 45k other
brand.
Well its not the engines/outdrives., Nowadays its either Volvopenta or
Merc.
Its the extras that the other brands put into thier boats. We didnot
get a
radio in our boat, nor a depth finder, nor a bimini top (I REALLY got
to get
one this year). It didnt come with the laminate wood dashboard, the gas
operated lift mechanicals for the engine hatch, the fiberglass covered
floor. But it did come with a gelcoated dash, removable engine hatch ,
carpeted floor. As stated its a basic boat. The extras are very nice
but you
have to pay for them.


Keep it simple! I've never owned a car with power windows/locks etc.
As long as your arms work...why pay extra for mechanical/electrical
systems that can fail & might be expensive to replace.

Don,

While in principle I agree with you, especially on a boat exposed to the
elements, I didn't even know they still made cars without power windows
and door locks.

With boats and cars, I would seriously consider buying the popular
options, even if it was not a high priority to me, if I was considering
the resale value of the boat/car. If you plan on keeping the boat/car
till it is ready for the scrap heap, it is not important.

My 2 month old 2006 Ford Ranger 'Sport' Super Cab has roll up windows and
manual locks. 1995 mini-van...same.


I would agree with Reggie regarding cars but not on boats. Upgrade options
on boats can normally be retrofits and do not significantly add to the
resale *price* of a used boat. They may however make the boat more
attractive to prospective buyers.

BTW Reggie, I never saw a car or boat that was not exposed to the elements.
;-)