Yep here we go again folks, it's 97-98 all over???

crabby posted 10-06-2004 09:21 AM ET (US) Profile for crabby Send
Email to crabby I recently purchased a 2004 90hp E-TEC that died with
barely 10 hours on the clock. (See previous article.) Initially I
reported that the dealer claimed a bearing let loose on the lower
cylinder; however this assessment was not based on a full tear down but
rather from pulling the head and seeing some "debris" in the cylinder bore.

Bombardier was supposed to overnite a fresh block; a week later a block
was delivered, but it had been damaged in shipping. Yet another block
was supposed to be overnight shipped; three days later it arrived.

I got the boat and motor back two weeks after the initial breakdown. I
had them put a larger prop on this time (the 17-inch-pitch prop was
letting the motor wind to its max at 5500 and I figured I might gain a
little speed with a 19-inch prop). The engine idled a bit on the rough
side, and had a stumble coming off idle, but I figured it was just a
break-in thing (I alerted the mechanic to this and we decided to see if
it smoothed out over the break-in period before I brought it in for a
twenty-hour service). The motor seemed to run well otherwise, giving me
43-MPH (per GPS) at 5000-RPM with two passengers. (The boat is a 1986
Montauk with a 24 gallon fiberglass tank feeding the fuel thru a
canister style filter; engine is running XD100 oil and premium gas from
a reputable land based gas station--yes, it has 10-percent Ethanol as do
all the gasolines that I am aware of here on Long Island.)

This morning I leave the dock at about 0600 to do some bass fishing, let
the motor warm up for a few minutes before I drove out to the bay
(another five minutes at idle), get out on the bay and take off for the
flats. Thirty seconds into the ride, doing about 3000-RPM, the motor
suddenly drops speed without any alarm lights or sounds; I thought maybe
the automatic rev limiter had cut in, since it was doing about 1000-RPM,
but it was pumping water. So I did what we always do out here on LI: a
shot of reverse to make certain there is no weed on the prop, then took
off again. I made it about another mile out across the flats (doing
about 4000 to 4500-RPM, gotta keep it off the bottom in that skinny
water) when it just cut right out again. Totally shut down. Now I'm
thinking fuel? The first thing I do is pull the cover and check the
filter, which is full. It takes a couple of cranks to start this time
and sure enough, there is that exact same sound it made the last time it
blew: a knocking noise clearly audible above the purr of the motor. Give
it gas in neutral and it's really rough. Now I'm only in 2.5 feet of
water and I don't want to put it on a plane here so I idle it for a
quarter mile till I get to some deeper water and it takes off just fine
and runs fine till I get to my spot. But once there and I idle down that
knock is plainly audible.

Needless to say I couldn't settle down and fish, and I tried idling back
to my dock but after half an hour I reached the flats and had no choice
but to put the hammer down and cruise across. It seemed to run fine, but
once I reached my canal and throttled back there was that knock.

The dealer hasn't yet opened and I am now pondering my options: demand
my money back? Demand a fresh motor? Who pays for the second tow job for
the second blown motor? Just what IS wrong with this setup? We are now
into prime fishing (and tournament) season here on Long Island and I am
truly not a happy boater.

Sorry folks. I just had to vent.

Possibly a few pertinent points: the block was changed but I was told
the EMM [Electronic Module?] and the injectors are from the original
setup, as are all of the other electical devices. I have no true idea
exactly what was carried over and, as the mechanic was out on a call
when I picked up the boat, I don't have any paperwork or printouts from
the PalmPilot to tell me anything. The tag on the motor says it was
built in Jan 2004 but it was purchased new and installed by the dealer
on 1 September 2004 (along with a system check tach and a new ignition
key/safety switch).

OK, it's after 0900 and time for me to vent on the dealer.



So not only are these things super expensive (padding out the dealer
kickbacks after Ficht??) but seems you better add tow insurance to the
cost???



crabby posted 10-06-2004 09:23 PM ET (US) Profile for crabby Send
Email to crabby FU2: thanks good buddy, I just purchased a towing
package so you are off the hook. Check your email for details.

To all others: Thanks for all the suggestions and thoughts; I will
certainly do some of the cutting and pasting and emailing to higher ups
at BRP. When BRP took their time getting me a replacement block the
first time they were kind enough to offer me a case of oil for my
troubles (I spoke to a guy named Al at the customer service number)(I
was hoping for the same extended warrantee they were offering last
winter, I figure if the motors are so good it wouldn't have cost them
anything, eh?).

I spoke to the dealer this afternoon who says he has already spoken to
BRP and has told them he either wants a fully dressed block or
permission to hang a new motor on my boat. I don't know if he is just
blowing sunshine in my face or what; I DO know that it was a lot more
than the $6K someone thinks I have paid for this lemon and I think the
dealer knows that I know he made a few bucks on this sale. In any event,
he seems to be in the middle and I really hope that BRP comes through
and does the right thing this time around. I want to get the motor to
the shop while it is still running (rather than totally dead as it was
when we got it there last time) so that it may actually be of some good
to the engineers and the rest of us folks who are looking for a good
product (the reason I spent more money on the towing package rather than
just dragging in a totally dead motor again). Hopefully it won't just
get tossed onto the scrap aluminum pile.


Maybe it is time that we got a rep from BRP to start participating in
this forum and others like it. Supposedly there is someone named Sean
who is a factory rep that is supposed to look at my motor; I will make
this suggestion to him if I actually get to meet him tomorrow.


Seahorse: the possible fuel delivery situation you mention...since
the fuel is delivered directly to the combustion chamber independent of
the lube system, do you think this is really an issue here (assuming
something let loose in the bottom end again)?

I'll be working from home tomorrow morning so I will make a few of those
phone calls and do some emailing before I get the rig dragged over to
Freeport. Again, thanks to all of you for your concern and support (and
to those local friends offering rides to the fishing grounds!).
seahorse


This bloke seems to have it well sussed yet he doesn't claim to even
know that these E-Tec don't just run lean they run very very lean & then
they have low injection pressure for poor atomisation & bugger all
oiling, it's probably worse than Ficht & I wouldn't have thought that
even possible.


highanddry posted 10-08-2004 11:29 PM ET (US) Profile for
highanddry Send Email to highanddry "Nope, but an exhaust temp
guage would, just like in aircraft."

Not to pick on anyone for sure but an EGT guage in an aircraft is used
to set mixture for best economy etc. There are all kinds of arguments
from Lycoming, Continental and pilots about how to lean, past peak,
before peak, best power etc and way beyond this boat discussion. One
thing, the computer(s) and black boxes that are controlling these
outboard engines certainly monitor such parameters if only indirectly.
Lean conditions will kill a two-stroke and they don't like reformulated
fuels. While I have not been to a marine mechanic school I am an A&P and
I am also a certified Rotax (BRP) mechanic and I also stayed in a
Holiday In Express last nite. So--my point is that the Mercury
Optimax/SmartCraft and BRP products are certainly monitoring engine
operating parametrs and setting mixture automatically to match
conditions and much more effectively/instantaneously than a human with
an EGT guage could ever do. These engines clearly operate on a knife
edge. Fuel is not just for burning but the vaporization provides cooling
to the piston crown. Lean mixtures burn hotter to a point and more over
the vaporization effect is less pronounced. This is why these engines
require high quality materials and computer controls to finely balance
the engine operation on this "knife edge". Did you know that a lean
mixture actually burns slower than a rich mixture and often results in
afterburning in the aircraft(or boats or cars) engines exhaust resulting
in high EGT and also burned exhuast valves. Yes, lean mixtures kill four
strokes too--just not as fast but just as dead.

Without more knowledge of these DI engines I am assuming the are burning
lean of stochiometric for economy and reduced emissions. In the olden
days they would have been set to run to the rich side but they did not
have black boxes to control all of that either. I would suspect
carboning/stuck rings to be a lesser problem with the Optimax and
similar engines than older carbed engines but burned pistons and galled
psitons and piston rod bearing failures to be a more prevalent problem. J