Gould 0738 wrote:

Even take 9-11 for example: the govt could have portrayed
those tragic events as the deranged act of a group of
criminal extremists,

So you are advocating that the government mislead us then? Hmm, imagine
what would happen if the left got wind that the Bush administration held
out "the truth" from us.

??????????????????????????????

It *WAS* the deranged act of a group of criminal ******* extremists, Dave. Not
an excuse to invade two countries (so far), and openly state that there are
more members of the "axis of evil" at risk from our actions in the "war on
terror".

But there ARE other members of whatever name you wish to apply to the
terrorists groups. The perps on 911 were not acting alone. While you can
cut off a plant by the branches, and it keeps growing back, until you
hit the roots of the evil, it will also keep coming back.




The ringleaders should be brought to justice covertly.

For what purpose other than "feel good" pride? You think the group will
fall apart when the leader is caught? As far as we know OBL is already
dead, and the group is still functioning.

So far, our overt acts
have failed to eliminate the top layer of the terrorist network that attacked
us in the US.

We have captured several of the "top dogs" in Al Qaeda. How many more do
we need to catch? And even when we do, there are still junior members
ready to step in. We have to stamp out the environment which creates
these people.

What's just a bit scary about your guy and his crew is the
espoused philosophy that we should now attack everybody who
might, in the future, do some harm to the United States (maybe). There's no
100% reliable way to know who these people are, but if we wipe out enough
people in various areas of the world maybe we can get them all. Maybe.

That's one hell of an exaggeration. It's not the way you portrayed it.
We have intelligence that tells our government (But not the propaganda
speculators) exactly who and where terrorists are likely to be hiding
out, and which governments either overtly or covertly support them. We
have a responsibility to stamp out the whole plant, or it will just grow
back.


We know this: we better not miss as many as 19.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "19" reference.


You can't have it both ways. If you believe that it's in the best
interest of this country to NOT know all the gory details, then you
can't complain when they do it.

Your logic just collapsed on itself.

No, it hasn't. You just misunderstood. I stated that If you believe that
it's in the best
interest of this country to NOT know all the gory details, then you
can't complain when they do hold back the information. And we know
that's the typical MO of the left, when they are constantly on the
attack, criticising the administration for not being "straight up" with
the people.



I have some very terrible news for you. The odds that you actually have any
clue about the actual "gory details" are close to zero.


The same goes for you, but that hasn't stopped you from speculating all
sorts of theories (not so coincidently critical of our administration's
motives) as to what has been happening and why. The whole "war for oil"
mindset.


All you or I know is what we read in the papers or (in your case) hear on talk
radio.

And you too evidently. You seem to know far too much about what is being
spewed out by the latest Limbaugh clone.

Every government, including this one, keeps important secrets from the press.

You are correct, and for good reason. Yet why do your bretheran on the
left constantly criticize our administration for this practice? Why do
these people feel that the public has the right to know everything? And
when they find hints of certain classified material, they right away
jump to the conclusion that the government is "up to no good"? (Of
course this depends on whether there's a republican in office)

International diplomacy is like a poker game- you might be likely to bluff but
it's unlikely you'll show your actual cards around the table while the bets are
going into the pot.

Except that we hold the winning hand.

Dave

But there ARE other members of whatever name you wish to apply to the
terrorists groups. The perps on 911 were not acting alone. While you can
cut off a plant by the branches, and it keeps growing back, until you
hit the roots of the evil, it will also keep coming back.

All BS aside Dave. The "roots of evil" lie deep in the hearts of all men. We
cannot premeptively kill everybody we judge capable of potential evil. There
would be nobody left.

The ringleaders should be brought to justice covertly.

For what purpose other than "feel good" pride? You think the group will
fall apart when the leader is caught? As far as we know OBL is already
dead, and the group is still functioning.

Because we are a system that is based on justice. (Justice is different than
revenge).
Justice demands that the guilty be made to account for the crimes of 9-11, etc.
Revenge does not serve justice, it just feels better to the common man.

We have captured several of the "top dogs" in Al Qaeda. How many more do
we need to catch? And even when we do, there are still junior members
ready to step in. We have to stamp out the environment which creates
these people.

Good idea. When do you propose we start? Most of our recent actions have
fostered international hatred for the US and
perpetuated the environment that spawns desperate criminal terrorist martyrs.


What's just a bit scary about your guy and his crew is the
espoused philosophy that we should now attack everybody who
might, in the future, do some harm to the United States (maybe).

That's one hell of an exaggeration. It's not the way you portrayed it.

No? why not go back up a few paragraphs to your comment about stamping out the
sources? Did you not mean invading the countries where we theorize the
terrorists might be, and tearing down any governments we thing might be
supporting them?

We have intelligence that tells our government (But not the propaganda
speculators) exactly who and where terrorists are likely to be hiding
out, and which governments either overtly or covertly support them.

We
have a responsibility to stamp out the whole plant, or it will just grow
back.

We know this: we better not miss as many as 19.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "19" reference.



Nineteen guys did 9-11.

No, it hasn't. You just misunderstood. I stated that If you believe that
it's in the best
interest of this country to NOT know all the gory details, then you
can't complain when they do hold back the information. And we know
that's the typical MO of the left, when they are constantly on the

attack, criticising the administration for not being "straight up" with
the people.

*if* the government chooses to make a public statement prior to or during the
invasion of a country or other dramatic, overt act, the government should not
deliberately mislead the public with that statement. That's not a tough
standard to accept, is it?

I have some very terrible news for you. The odds that you actually have any
clue about the actual "gory details" are close to zero.

The same goes for you, but that hasn't stopped you from speculating all
sorts of theories (not so coincidently critical of our administration's
motives) as to what has been happening and why. The whole "war for oil"
mindset.

We have exactly the same resources. The official government press releases. The
national and international media. Etc.

I have a specific source for questioning the administration's motives. It was
published and endorsed by the most influential members of Bush's cabinet
several years ago. It outlines a general gameplan for the United States to
establish a global empire, and recommends specific steps to accomplish the
goal. One of the first recommended steps is the occupation of Iraq. We're not
talking some left wing spinmeister's hallucination- we're talking about a
document that the right wing authors take enough pride in to publish on the
internet. You know exactly where to find it. (NAC)

All you or I know is what we read in the papers or (in your case) hear on
talk
radio.

And you too evidently. You seem to know far too much about what is being
spewed out by the latest Limbaugh clone.

The right wing is a dangerous element. It's good to know what the "group think"
is up to.

I listen about ten minutes a day. It's too hilariously entertaining to pass up
completely, and by analyzing the manipulative techniques these guys are using
so successfully one can learn quite a bit about controlling others with
prejudice, emotion, and misinformation.
Never can tell when skills like that might prove useful, or when it may be
necessary to more actively defend against same.

Every government, including this one, keeps important secrets from the
press.

You are correct, and for good reason. Yet why do your bretheran on the
left constantly criticize our administration for this practice? Why do
these people feel that the public has the right to know everything? And
when they find hints of certain classified material, they right away
jump to the conclusion that the government is "up to no good"? (Of
course this depends on whether there's a republican in office)

See previous comment. The government, D or R, should never use a press
conference, SOTU speech, or other "official" opportunities to deliberately
mislead the American people. It's flabbergasting that any two Americans would
ever disagree on this.........but, oh well.



International diplomacy is like a poker game- you might be likely to bluff
but
it's unlikely you'll show your actual cards around the table while the bets
are
going into the pot.

Except that we hold the winning hand.


I guess. "Let's see. A two of clubs, a four of diamonds, a jack of spades, a
king of hearts and a seven of clubs. Oh, yeah......
and a nuclear arsenal and status as the only remaining superpower in the
world.....
looks like we win again."