What education?
 

"JohnH" wrote in message
...


You are condemning the entire public school system based on the actions of
one brand new teacher? That makes little sense to me.


Yes, I am. But not just for the example given. And not necessarily for the
individual teachers, as I suspect there are many that are highly modivated
and potentially excellent educators.

It's the change in philosophy of the administration of public education that
sucks.

My example was but one of many happening everyday.



I would have suggested you get the child in a different classroom. The
teacher, in my opinion, was wrong to even mention a possibility of ADS (I
don't know what that is, although I'm very familiar with ADD -attention
deficit disorder. In this county teachers cannot even suggest such a thing
to parents. Teachers can talk to the counselors and principals, and they
can discuss behavior problems, but they are not to be amateur
psychologists.

You're right, it's ADD, not ADS. (thought it was attention deficit syndrome
or something)


Your condemnation of public schools because of a 23 year old isn't
justified.

Agree.


Actually your blanket condemnation of public schools isn't
justified.

Yes, it is.

Go sit in a high school B-C Calculus class and remember that the
kids there are a product of public schools.

What percentage of high school students take a real course in Calculus,
other than maybe a half year introduction? I don't know, but I suspect the
percentage is very small.

RCE

What education?
 

On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 06:28:07 GMT, "CalifBill"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 16:25:21 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:09:33 GMT, Shortwave Sportfishing
wrote:

http://www.break.com/movies/suffrage.html

I couldn't believe it.

I know that this is probably preaching to the choir... since I know
your wife is a teacher, but education is now defined as the ability to
pass a standardized test. It has nothing to do with ability to reason
or accrued knowledge.

A recent newspaper article found that, locally, of 350 applicants,
only 23 of 350 applicants with a high school diploma had adequate
skills in reading, writing, and math to begin entry level college
classes.... but having a high school diploma, we know they can pass
that test! Right?


I wish someone would explain to me why this is true, and exactly what's
happened since I left high school in 1970. It's rather depressing.

Well, for one we now spend all of our time and effort trying to
educate the uneducable. Was a time when we allowed and expected those
who did not want to be in school to leave and those who could not
learn were excluded. Now we dumb down everything to their level. This
includes those who would have been institutionalized in 1970 due to
extremely low IQs and learning disbilities. The current trend ( and
the law "Individuals with Disabilities Education Act") is much better
for most of these groups, but try learning in a class of 20 where two
autistic children are banging their heads against the walls while 2 or
3 retarded children are being attended to by their personal teacher
aids. The class size is much smaller than in 1970 (20 kids vs. 32
kids) and the staffing levels are way up ( a teacher and a couple of
aids assigned to specific children) but the instruction is designed to
a much lower level and the distractions are extreme.

Dave Hall

that plus the fact that the schools all focus on sending the kid to college
to learn. 20% of the population is college material. In the 1950's when I
went to school (graduated HS in 1961) there were shop classes, and other
vocational classes as well as technical vocation HS's. We need these to
schools and classes to keep kids in school and interested in learning. We
need auto mechanics and other vocational arts people for a majority of the
jobs.


Bill, those classes still exist. But, the government mandates what the
educational requirements are, and we still don't have a 'vocational' track
in the system. The public high school just down the road from me has a
great set of vocational classes. Although called an 'academy', it's just
part of the high school.

http://www.fcps.edu/EdisonAcademy/courses.htm
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

What education?
 

On Sat, 8 Apr 2006 09:21:23 -0400, "RCE" wrote:


"JohnH" wrote in message
.. .


You are condemning the entire public school system based on the actions of
one brand new teacher? That makes little sense to me.


Yes, I am. But not just for the example given. And not necessarily for the
individual teachers, as I suspect there are many that are highly modivated
and potentially excellent educators.

It's the change in philosophy of the administration of public education that
sucks.

My example was but one of many happening everyday.



I would have suggested you get the child in a different classroom. The
teacher, in my opinion, was wrong to even mention a possibility of ADS (I
don't know what that is, although I'm very familiar with ADD -attention
deficit disorder. In this county teachers cannot even suggest such a thing
to parents. Teachers can talk to the counselors and principals, and they
can discuss behavior problems, but they are not to be amateur
psychologists.

You're right, it's ADD, not ADS. (thought it was attention deficit syndrome
or something)


Your condemnation of public schools because of a 23 year old isn't
justified.

Agree.


Actually your blanket condemnation of public schools isn't
justified.

Yes, it is.

Go sit in a high school B-C Calculus class and remember that the
kids there are a product of public schools.

What percentage of high school students take a real course in Calculus,
other than maybe a half year introduction? I don't know, but I suspect the
percentage is very small.

RCE



You're damn right it's small! In my school, population of about 2500 high
school students, only about 75 are taking BC Calculus. And yes, it's a
'real' calculus course. About 125 kids are taking AB Calculus. Granted,
that's only about 8% of the high school population, but it's in *high
school*.

Intro to calculus is called "Pre-Calculus", a separate course.
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

What education?
 

"JohnH" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 20:31:53 -0400, "RCE" wrote:


" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
m...

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:39:03 -0400, JohnH penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:



They were also supported by parents who gave a damn.
You make a good point... and one that I should have addressed. Busing
destroyed the community schools and created a remote location that no
longer carried any oversight from the home or local community. A
recipe for disaster.

Another point to ponder is the number of kids that do not receive
supervision from at least one parent... and this happens when both
parents MUST work to pay the bills. Another recipe for disaster.

Actually no. The problem is not supervision while the parents are
working
but the lack of involvement by the parent(s) in their childrens
education.
Without the parent(s) attending conferences with the teacher(s) and
making
sure their children keep on top of their homework the child is often
destined to fail. All this can be done even with both parents working.

How many kids who are failing in school have mothers or fathers who do
not
work and *are* are home? I would guess a fair amount.

If the parents do not care.........why should the child?


My story. Or, rather, my grandkid and daughter's story.

My daughter is the mother of two great, young boys. The oldest finishing
third grade.
He's a normal, healthy, regular eight year old who enjoys bikes, video
games, baseball, tree forts and general screwing around after school
building creations from his dad's supply of 2x4's and scrap plywood.

In school he's an average student ... B's and C's ... with an occasional A
that is cause for celebration and praise. He's quiet ... not a discipline
problem at all, and is well liked by his friends. He's of normal
intellect
... no Einstein by any means, but he's not a dummy either. He's a normal
kid
with tendencies toward being a bit reflective, thoughtful and maybe a bit
sensitive. He also has a genuine creative mind that is reflected in his
homemade "inventions". He admits to a tendency to "daydream" at times in
school, (a past time that I remember all too well through all my years in
school).

This year, his 23 year old, third grade teacher suggested to my daughter
at
a parent/teacher meeting that she suspected he may have ADS and might
benefit from medication to help him focus more on school work. My
daughter
was shocked at first, but over time the teacher continued pressure that
medication would help him achieve his "full potential". Remember now,
this
is third grade!

After the third or forth discussion, the teacher enlisted the aid of a
school consoler who also favored a further investigation regarding the ADS
diagnosis by the 23 year old teacher. My daughter was becoming
emotionally
distraught because she wanted to do the best for her kid, but was
reluctant
to start medicating him unless it was absolutely necessary. It got to the
point were she asked the opinion of Mrs.E. and I. Me being me, advised
her
to tell the teacher and consoler to take a hike and let the kid be a kid.
After all, I pointed out, the grades the teacher was giving him didn't
appear to be consistent with a kid with a serious learning disability. I
suggested that maybe he could get more A grades by applying more effort,
but
we are only talking third grade here, not a senior in high school. My
uneducated, nonprofessional opinion was to let the kid enjoy his childhood
as long as everything was in general balance. The teacher, however, was
now making my daughter feel guilty for not doing what was in the best
interest of the kid. It really became a messy, stressful and emotional
issue. In addition, veiled and subtle references were given to
investigations of parental neglect resulting in some extreme cases.
Recognizing that my advise was not going to help calm her down now that
the
issue was getting out of hand, we suggested she have the kid tested and
evaluated by someone other than the 23 year old teacher.

It was agreed to have the kid tested by a school psychologist. Meanwhile,
my
daughter consulted with her pediatrician who basically told her the same
thing I had told her .... tell them to take a hike ... the kid's fine. A
meeting was held with the psychologist, the teacher and the school
consoler
with my daughter and her husband. The psychologist announced that the
results of the IQ and other tests indicated that the kid was perfectly
normal. The teacher, basically ignoring this, started debating ADS with
the
psychologist in front of my daughter and son-in-law and continued to
recommend medication for ADS for the kid. She also, and for the first
time,
acknowledged that she was under treatment herself for adult ADS and went
on
to explain how it helped her. She even started suggesting what medication
to take and what not to take.

My daughter politely but firmly told her to take a hike, her decision was
made, was final and any further discussion would be with the
superintendent
of schools in attendance. That was about 2 months ago. The 23 year old
teacher's latest report is that the kid is doing fine, no problems,
average
grades and being a typical, normal third grader.

I am glad my kid raising days are over. The public school system is
totally
out of control nowadays, and was heading that way when our kids were
young.
Our two oldest attended public schools. The youngest went to a private
school. Fortunately, all survived and have their heads screwed on
straight.

RCE


You are condemning the entire public school system based on the actions of
one brand new teacher? That makes little sense to me.

I would have suggested you get the child in a different classroom. The
teacher, in my opinion, was wrong to even mention a possibility of ADS (I
don't know what that is, although I'm very familiar with ADD -attention
deficit disorder. In this county teachers cannot even suggest such a thing
to parents. Teachers can talk to the counselors and principals, and they
can discuss behavior problems, but they are not to be amateur
psychologists.

Your condemnation of public schools because of a 23 year old isn't
justified. Actually your blanket condemnation of public schools isn't
justified. Go sit in a high school B-C Calculus class and remember that
the
kids there are a product of public schools.
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

The teachers in Calif can recommend Ritalin and I think the school gets more
money for an ADD student. Follow the money.

What education?
 

"JohnH" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 06:28:07 GMT, "CalifBill"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 16:25:21 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
m...
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:09:33 GMT, Shortwave Sportfishing
wrote:

http://www.break.com/movies/suffrage.html

I couldn't believe it.

I know that this is probably preaching to the choir... since I know
your wife is a teacher, but education is now defined as the ability to
pass a standardized test. It has nothing to do with ability to reason
or accrued knowledge.

A recent newspaper article found that, locally, of 350 applicants,
only 23 of 350 applicants with a high school diploma had adequate
skills in reading, writing, and math to begin entry level college
classes.... but having a high school diploma, we know they can pass
that test! Right?


I wish someone would explain to me why this is true, and exactly what's
happened since I left high school in 1970. It's rather depressing.

Well, for one we now spend all of our time and effort trying to
educate the uneducable. Was a time when we allowed and expected those
who did not want to be in school to leave and those who could not
learn were excluded. Now we dumb down everything to their level. This
includes those who would have been institutionalized in 1970 due to
extremely low IQs and learning disbilities. The current trend ( and
the law "Individuals with Disabilities Education Act") is much better
for most of these groups, but try learning in a class of 20 where two
autistic children are banging their heads against the walls while 2 or
3 retarded children are being attended to by their personal teacher
aids. The class size is much smaller than in 1970 (20 kids vs. 32
kids) and the staffing levels are way up ( a teacher and a couple of
aids assigned to specific children) but the instruction is designed to
a much lower level and the distractions are extreme.

Dave Hall

that plus the fact that the schools all focus on sending the kid to
college
to learn. 20% of the population is college material. In the 1950's when
I
went to school (graduated HS in 1961) there were shop classes, and other
vocational classes as well as technical vocation HS's. We need these to
schools and classes to keep kids in school and interested in learning. We
need auto mechanics and other vocational arts people for a majority of
the
jobs.


Bill, those classes still exist. But, the government mandates what the
educational requirements are, and we still don't have a 'vocational' track
in the system. The public high school just down the road from me has a
great set of vocational classes. Although called an 'academy', it's just
part of the high school.

http://www.fcps.edu/EdisonAcademy/courses.htm
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

In most Calif schools there are no shops anymore.

What education?
 

On Sun, 09 Apr 2006 03:52:08 GMT, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"JohnH" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 20:31:53 -0400, "RCE" wrote:


" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
om...

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:39:03 -0400, JohnH penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:



They were also supported by parents who gave a damn.
You make a good point... and one that I should have addressed. Busing
destroyed the community schools and created a remote location that no
longer carried any oversight from the home or local community. A
recipe for disaster.

Another point to ponder is the number of kids that do not receive
supervision from at least one parent... and this happens when both
parents MUST work to pay the bills. Another recipe for disaster.

Actually no. The problem is not supervision while the parents are
working
but the lack of involvement by the parent(s) in their childrens
education.
Without the parent(s) attending conferences with the teacher(s) and
making
sure their children keep on top of their homework the child is often
destined to fail. All this can be done even with both parents working.

How many kids who are failing in school have mothers or fathers who do
not
work and *are* are home? I would guess a fair amount.

If the parents do not care.........why should the child?


My story. Or, rather, my grandkid and daughter's story.

My daughter is the mother of two great, young boys. The oldest finishing
third grade.
He's a normal, healthy, regular eight year old who enjoys bikes, video
games, baseball, tree forts and general screwing around after school
building creations from his dad's supply of 2x4's and scrap plywood.

In school he's an average student ... B's and C's ... with an occasional A
that is cause for celebration and praise. He's quiet ... not a discipline
problem at all, and is well liked by his friends. He's of normal
intellect
... no Einstein by any means, but he's not a dummy either. He's a normal
kid
with tendencies toward being a bit reflective, thoughtful and maybe a bit
sensitive. He also has a genuine creative mind that is reflected in his
homemade "inventions". He admits to a tendency to "daydream" at times in
school, (a past time that I remember all too well through all my years in
school).

This year, his 23 year old, third grade teacher suggested to my daughter
at
a parent/teacher meeting that she suspected he may have ADS and might
benefit from medication to help him focus more on school work. My
daughter
was shocked at first, but over time the teacher continued pressure that
medication would help him achieve his "full potential". Remember now,
this
is third grade!

After the third or forth discussion, the teacher enlisted the aid of a
school consoler who also favored a further investigation regarding the ADS
diagnosis by the 23 year old teacher. My daughter was becoming
emotionally
distraught because she wanted to do the best for her kid, but was
reluctant
to start medicating him unless it was absolutely necessary. It got to the
point were she asked the opinion of Mrs.E. and I. Me being me, advised
her
to tell the teacher and consoler to take a hike and let the kid be a kid.
After all, I pointed out, the grades the teacher was giving him didn't
appear to be consistent with a kid with a serious learning disability. I
suggested that maybe he could get more A grades by applying more effort,
but
we are only talking third grade here, not a senior in high school. My
uneducated, nonprofessional opinion was to let the kid enjoy his childhood
as long as everything was in general balance. The teacher, however, was
now making my daughter feel guilty for not doing what was in the best
interest of the kid. It really became a messy, stressful and emotional
issue. In addition, veiled and subtle references were given to
investigations of parental neglect resulting in some extreme cases.
Recognizing that my advise was not going to help calm her down now that
the
issue was getting out of hand, we suggested she have the kid tested and
evaluated by someone other than the 23 year old teacher.

It was agreed to have the kid tested by a school psychologist. Meanwhile,
my
daughter consulted with her pediatrician who basically told her the same
thing I had told her .... tell them to take a hike ... the kid's fine. A
meeting was held with the psychologist, the teacher and the school
consoler
with my daughter and her husband. The psychologist announced that the
results of the IQ and other tests indicated that the kid was perfectly
normal. The teacher, basically ignoring this, started debating ADS with
the
psychologist in front of my daughter and son-in-law and continued to
recommend medication for ADS for the kid. She also, and for the first
time,
acknowledged that she was under treatment herself for adult ADS and went
on
to explain how it helped her. She even started suggesting what medication
to take and what not to take.

My daughter politely but firmly told her to take a hike, her decision was
made, was final and any further discussion would be with the
superintendent
of schools in attendance. That was about 2 months ago. The 23 year old
teacher's latest report is that the kid is doing fine, no problems,
average
grades and being a typical, normal third grader.

I am glad my kid raising days are over. The public school system is
totally
out of control nowadays, and was heading that way when our kids were
young.
Our two oldest attended public schools. The youngest went to a private
school. Fortunately, all survived and have their heads screwed on
straight.

RCE


You are condemning the entire public school system based on the actions of
one brand new teacher? That makes little sense to me.

I would have suggested you get the child in a different classroom. The
teacher, in my opinion, was wrong to even mention a possibility of ADS (I
don't know what that is, although I'm very familiar with ADD -attention
deficit disorder. In this county teachers cannot even suggest such a thing
to parents. Teachers can talk to the counselors and principals, and they
can discuss behavior problems, but they are not to be amateur
psychologists.

Your condemnation of public schools because of a 23 year old isn't
justified. Actually your blanket condemnation of public schools isn't
justified. Go sit in a high school B-C Calculus class and remember that
the
kids there are a product of public schools.
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

The teachers in Calif can recommend Ritalin and I think the school gets more
money for an ADD student. Follow the money.


That's California. Nothing would surprise me. Actually, I'm surprised that
the teachers out there can't just write the prescriptions for Ritalin!
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

What education?
 

"JohnH" wrote in message
...


The teachers in Calif can recommend Ritalin and I think the school gets
more
money for an ADD student. Follow the money.


That's California. Nothing would surprise me. Actually, I'm surprised that
the teachers out there can't just write the prescriptions for Ritalin!
--
'Til next time,

John H


Are teachers still allowed to yell really loud at kids? I had a Latin
teacher who was a former USMC sergeant. He seemed able to retain eye contact
with 20 kids all at once. It was a very bad idea to break eye contact and
look at anything outside the window. He would "address" offenders in a voice
that rattled the dropped ceiling tiles. :-) If ADHD or its cousins existed
in 1968, it was apparently afraid to be seen in public.

What education?
 

Go sit in a high school B-C Calculus class and remember that the
kids there are a product of public schools.
What percentage of high school students take a real course in Calculus,
other than maybe a half year introduction? I don't know, but I suspect the
percentage is very small.


Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
Less than 2% locally.

Must be something in the water.

Around here about 15% of the kids are in honors math. I used
to to tutor some of them. They easily test out of freshman
calculus when they get to college.

Pardon me for allowing facts to interrupt a partisan screed.

DSK

What education?
 

On Sun, 09 Apr 2006 12:56:25 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"JohnH" wrote in message
.. .


The teachers in Calif can recommend Ritalin and I think the school gets
more
money for an ADD student. Follow the money.


That's California. Nothing would surprise me. Actually, I'm surprised that
the teachers out there can't just write the prescriptions for Ritalin!
--
'Til next time,

John H


Are teachers still allowed to yell really loud at kids? I had a Latin
teacher who was a former USMC sergeant. He seemed able to retain eye contact
with 20 kids all at once. It was a very bad idea to break eye contact and
look at anything outside the window. He would "address" offenders in a voice
that rattled the dropped ceiling tiles. :-) If ADHD or its cousins existed
in 1968, it was apparently afraid to be seen in public.


Yelling is allowed, but I've found that going SSSSSHHHHHH, loudly, works
better than anything for getting a class quiet.
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

What education?
 

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 06:47:36 -0400, DSK wrote:

Go sit in a high school B-C Calculus class and remember that the
kids there are a product of public schools.
What percentage of high school students take a real course in Calculus,
other than maybe a half year introduction? I don't know, but I suspect
the
percentage is very small.


Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
Less than 2% locally.

Must be something in the water.

Around here about 15% of the kids are in honors math. I used
to to tutor some of them. They easily test out of freshman
calculus when they get to college.

Pardon me for allowing facts to interrupt a partisan screed.

I noticed that in the national stats - kind of interesting.

Do you have a higher population of Asian kids than we do around here?

Well....you ARE in Connecticut, after all. :)