What education?
 

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:09:33 GMT, Shortwave Sportfishing
wrote:

http://www.break.com/movies/suffrage.html

I couldn't believe it.

I know that this is probably preaching to the choir... since I know
your wife is a teacher, but education is now defined as the ability to
pass a standardized test. It has nothing to do with ability to reason
or accrued knowledge.

A recent newspaper article found that, locally, of 350 applicants,
only 23 of 350 applicants with a high school diploma had adequate
skills in reading, writing, and math to begin entry level college
classes.... but having a high school diploma, we know they can pass
that test! Right?


I wish someone would explain to me why this is true, and exactly what's
happened since I left high school in 1970. It's rather depressing.

What education?
 

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 16:25:21 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:09:33 GMT, Shortwave Sportfishing
wrote:

http://www.break.com/movies/suffrage.html

I couldn't believe it.

I know that this is probably preaching to the choir... since I know
your wife is a teacher, but education is now defined as the ability to
pass a standardized test. It has nothing to do with ability to reason
or accrued knowledge.

A recent newspaper article found that, locally, of 350 applicants,
only 23 of 350 applicants with a high school diploma had adequate
skills in reading, writing, and math to begin entry level college
classes.... but having a high school diploma, we know they can pass
that test! Right?


I wish someone would explain to me why this is true, and exactly what's
happened since I left high school in 1970. It's rather depressing.

I can tell you exactly what it is. Liberal "learning should be fun
with no consequences" and it's more important to socialize our
children than teach them things like - oh say, math. It's much more
important to obtain another music teacher than a math teacher.

Witness the idiot superintendent down in Killingly who, this is not a
joke, thinks it's degrading to give out "performance based marks" thus
came up with a "credit" system with no consequences. If the child
passes a course, he/she is given "credit" - if not, then nothing on
the record to indicate that the child failed to pass. His reasoning
is that grades are demeaning - that the fact that one kid gets an A
and one gets a C is demoralizing to the C student and thus decreasing
to that child's efforts to learn.

Those are the idiots we have to deal with in the education system.

Is this a plaid skirt school?

What education?
 

On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 18:08:01 GMT, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 16:25:21 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

I wish someone would explain to me why this is true, and exactly what's
happened since I left high school in 1970. It's rather depressing.


You don't know depressing until you deal with the lack of student
preparation on a daily basis.

And it is true because some politicians ran on a, "them unions and
teacher's is scum" platform. Now, with politically correct
"accountability," administrators can "prove" "success" through test
scores. The average person thinks these tests are helpful..... they
aren't.

Just goes to show that whether one wishes to be dishonest or not...
figures don't lie, but liars can figure....

The biggest difference between the graduating class of 1970 and today
is that the administration of the classrooms (from 1958-1970 for
example) was handled by the classroom teacher and she/he was given the
mandate that the student learn the course content. They knew their job
and they went about discipline and teaching with an eye towards
student success. They had administrative support from principals that
had intestinal fortitude.

Today that power is concentrated in the offices of administration and
judged by "standardized" norms.... which, by the way, we can now prove
doesn't work by the figures demonstrating a miserably low rate of
student preparedness..... but if we only look at those test scores,
we're doing a great job.....

They were also supported by parents who gave a damn. Discipline, in my
county's schools, is not a teacher prerogative. The teachers write a
'referral' which goes to the principal. The principal determines the
punishment, if any.

To imply there is no place for standardized tests makes no sense. There are
good tests and bad. If I am testing high school seniors with an 8th grade
level test, I'm obviously doing something stupid.
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

What education?
 

On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 17:59:14 GMT, Shortwave Sportfishing
wrote:

Those are the idiots we have to deal with in the education system.

Don't we collectively have an obligation to either deal with
incompetent officials, or continue to live with them?

The pen is mightier than the sword but you're preaching to the choir
here. Get the locals stirred up, and change the system. In a
democracy we get the government we deserve.

What education?
 

On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 16:25:21 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:09:33 GMT, Shortwave Sportfishing
wrote:

http://www.break.com/movies/suffrage.html

I couldn't believe it.

I know that this is probably preaching to the choir... since I know
your wife is a teacher, but education is now defined as the ability to
pass a standardized test. It has nothing to do with ability to reason
or accrued knowledge.

A recent newspaper article found that, locally, of 350 applicants,
only 23 of 350 applicants with a high school diploma had adequate
skills in reading, writing, and math to begin entry level college
classes.... but having a high school diploma, we know they can pass
that test! Right?


I wish someone would explain to me why this is true, and exactly what's
happened since I left high school in 1970. It's rather depressing.

Well, for one we now spend all of our time and effort trying to
educate the uneducable. Was a time when we allowed and expected those
who did not want to be in school to leave and those who could not
learn were excluded. Now we dumb down everything to their level. This
includes those who would have been institutionalized in 1970 due to
extremely low IQs and learning disbilities. The current trend ( and
the law "Individuals with Disabilities Education Act") is much better
for most of these groups, but try learning in a class of 20 where two
autistic children are banging their heads against the walls while 2 or
3 retarded children are being attended to by their personal teacher
aids. The class size is much smaller than in 1970 (20 kids vs. 32
kids) and the staffing levels are way up ( a teacher and a couple of
aids assigned to specific children) but the instruction is designed to
a much lower level and the distractions are extreme.

Dave Hall

What education?
 

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:39:03 -0400, JohnH penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:



They were also supported by parents who gave a damn.
You make a good point... and one that I should have addressed. Busing
destroyed the community schools and created a remote location that no
longer carried any oversight from the home or local community. A
recipe for disaster.

Another point to ponder is the number of kids that do not receive
supervision from at least one parent... and this happens when both
parents MUST work to pay the bills. Another recipe for disaster.

Actually no. The problem is not supervision while the parents are working
but the lack of involvement by the parent(s) in their childrens education.
Without the parent(s) attending conferences with the teacher(s) and making
sure their children keep on top of their homework the child is often
destined to fail. All this can be done even with both parents working.

How many kids who are failing in school have mothers or fathers who do not
work and *are* are home? I would guess a fair amount.

If the parents do not care.........why should the child?

What education?
 

" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
. ..

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:39:03 -0400, JohnH penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:



They were also supported by parents who gave a damn.
You make a good point... and one that I should have addressed. Busing
destroyed the community schools and created a remote location that no
longer carried any oversight from the home or local community. A
recipe for disaster.

Another point to ponder is the number of kids that do not receive
supervision from at least one parent... and this happens when both
parents MUST work to pay the bills. Another recipe for disaster.

Actually no. The problem is not supervision while the parents are working
but the lack of involvement by the parent(s) in their childrens education.
Without the parent(s) attending conferences with the teacher(s) and making
sure their children keep on top of their homework the child is often
destined to fail. All this can be done even with both parents working.

How many kids who are failing in school have mothers or fathers who do not
work and *are* are home? I would guess a fair amount.

If the parents do not care.........why should the child?


My story. Or, rather, my grandkid and daughter's story.

My daughter is the mother of two great, young boys. The oldest finishing
third grade.
He's a normal, healthy, regular eight year old who enjoys bikes, video
games, baseball, tree forts and general screwing around after school
building creations from his dad's supply of 2x4's and scrap plywood.

In school he's an average student ... B's and C's ... with an occasional A
that is cause for celebration and praise. He's quiet ... not a discipline
problem at all, and is well liked by his friends. He's of normal intellect
.... no Einstein by any means, but he's not a dummy either. He's a normal kid
with tendencies toward being a bit reflective, thoughtful and maybe a bit
sensitive. He also has a genuine creative mind that is reflected in his
homemade "inventions". He admits to a tendency to "daydream" at times in
school, (a past time that I remember all too well through all my years in
school).

This year, his 23 year old, third grade teacher suggested to my daughter at
a parent/teacher meeting that she suspected he may have ADS and might
benefit from medication to help him focus more on school work. My daughter
was shocked at first, but over time the teacher continued pressure that
medication would help him achieve his "full potential". Remember now, this
is third grade!

After the third or forth discussion, the teacher enlisted the aid of a
school consoler who also favored a further investigation regarding the ADS
diagnosis by the 23 year old teacher. My daughter was becoming emotionally
distraught because she wanted to do the best for her kid, but was reluctant
to start medicating him unless it was absolutely necessary. It got to the
point were she asked the opinion of Mrs.E. and I. Me being me, advised her
to tell the teacher and consoler to take a hike and let the kid be a kid.
After all, I pointed out, the grades the teacher was giving him didn't
appear to be consistent with a kid with a serious learning disability. I
suggested that maybe he could get more A grades by applying more effort, but
we are only talking third grade here, not a senior in high school. My
uneducated, nonprofessional opinion was to let the kid enjoy his childhood
as long as everything was in general balance. The teacher, however, was
now making my daughter feel guilty for not doing what was in the best
interest of the kid. It really became a messy, stressful and emotional
issue. In addition, veiled and subtle references were given to
investigations of parental neglect resulting in some extreme cases.
Recognizing that my advise was not going to help calm her down now that the
issue was getting out of hand, we suggested she have the kid tested and
evaluated by someone other than the 23 year old teacher.

It was agreed to have the kid tested by a school psychologist. Meanwhile, my
daughter consulted with her pediatrician who basically told her the same
thing I had told her .... tell them to take a hike ... the kid's fine. A
meeting was held with the psychologist, the teacher and the school consoler
with my daughter and her husband. The psychologist announced that the
results of the IQ and other tests indicated that the kid was perfectly
normal. The teacher, basically ignoring this, started debating ADS with the
psychologist in front of my daughter and son-in-law and continued to
recommend medication for ADS for the kid. She also, and for the first time,
acknowledged that she was under treatment herself for adult ADS and went on
to explain how it helped her. She even started suggesting what medication
to take and what not to take.

My daughter politely but firmly told her to take a hike, her decision was
made, was final and any further discussion would be with the superintendent
of schools in attendance. That was about 2 months ago. The 23 year old
teacher's latest report is that the kid is doing fine, no problems, average
grades and being a typical, normal third grader.

I am glad my kid raising days are over. The public school system is totally
out of control nowadays, and was heading that way when our kids were young.
Our two oldest attended public schools. The youngest went to a private
school. Fortunately, all survived and have their heads screwed on straight.

RCE

What education?
 

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 16:25:21 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:09:33 GMT, Shortwave Sportfishing
wrote:

http://www.break.com/movies/suffrage.html

I couldn't believe it.

I know that this is probably preaching to the choir... since I know
your wife is a teacher, but education is now defined as the ability to
pass a standardized test. It has nothing to do with ability to reason
or accrued knowledge.

A recent newspaper article found that, locally, of 350 applicants,
only 23 of 350 applicants with a high school diploma had adequate
skills in reading, writing, and math to begin entry level college
classes.... but having a high school diploma, we know they can pass
that test! Right?


I wish someone would explain to me why this is true, and exactly what's
happened since I left high school in 1970. It's rather depressing.

Well, for one we now spend all of our time and effort trying to
educate the uneducable. Was a time when we allowed and expected those
who did not want to be in school to leave and those who could not
learn were excluded. Now we dumb down everything to their level. This
includes those who would have been institutionalized in 1970 due to
extremely low IQs and learning disbilities. The current trend ( and
the law "Individuals with Disabilities Education Act") is much better
for most of these groups, but try learning in a class of 20 where two
autistic children are banging their heads against the walls while 2 or
3 retarded children are being attended to by their personal teacher
aids. The class size is much smaller than in 1970 (20 kids vs. 32
kids) and the staffing levels are way up ( a teacher and a couple of
aids assigned to specific children) but the instruction is designed to
a much lower level and the distractions are extreme.

Dave Hall

that plus the fact that the schools all focus on sending the kid to college
to learn. 20% of the population is college material. In the 1950's when I
went to school (graduated HS in 1961) there were shop classes, and other
vocational classes as well as technical vocation HS's. We need these to
schools and classes to keep kids in school and interested in learning. We
need auto mechanics and other vocational arts people for a majority of the
jobs.

What education?
 

On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 21:53:57 GMT, Gene Kearns
wrote:

On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:39:03 -0400, JohnH penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:



They were also supported by parents who gave a damn.
You make a good point... and one that I should have addressed. Busing
destroyed the community schools and created a remote location that no
longer carried any oversight from the home or local community. A
recipe for disaster.

Another point to ponder is the number of kids that do not receive
supervision from at least one parent... and this happens when both
parents MUST work to pay the bills. Another recipe for disaster.


Discipline, in my
county's schools, is not a teacher prerogative. The teachers write a
'referral' which goes to the principal. The principal determines the
punishment, if any.


This is my point, exactly. It is no longer dealt with by the teacher,
as it should be... immediately and forcefully, but is sent up the
administrative ladder for latter handling subject to the politically
correct decisions made by administrators that do *NOT* want unhappy
parents. I have decades of horror stories surrounding the idiocy of
letting administrators (not) handle deportment.

I've worked for school systems that had a quota system. Once the
administration expelled [xx%] of [xyz demographic] students, no more
could be expelled during that school year.... no matter *what* they
did. The only "out" was having the cops come and haul them away....

This year I have been teaching for 33 years and I think, sometimes, I
must have seen it all. I will no longer teach in Public School because
you are given a job and no tools or authority. I have very good
experiences teaching in industry and I greatly enjoy the Community
College. They seem to understand their purpose and do what is
necessary to make the student successful... that is what it is all
about. It isn't always about keeping student and parents happy.... it
is about learning.... and that isn't always, "happy, happy, joy, joy."

To imply there is no place for standardized tests makes no sense. There are
good tests and bad. If I am testing high school seniors with an 8th grade
level test, I'm obviously doing something stupid.

That isn't the point, but I'll build on what you have offered, since
it relates to the hard solutions that administrators are not willing
(or perhaps able) to make...

What is your solution to testing high school seniors with an 8th grade
level test and having them fail it?

If administrators (of all levels) lack sufficient male genitalia to
make those incredibly hard decisions and lack the political backing to
take the totally politically INcorrect actions... well, then what?

IMHO... you end up right where we are.....

Gene, I can't disagree with anything you've said. I'm sure there are school
systems using 8th grade level tests to pass seniors, if they use any test
at all. If the kids can't pass a legitimate test, as a senior, then they
shouldn't get a diploma. I don't think it's fair to the system to let the
kids repeat grades year after year.

Normally, from what I've seen, the kids who 'fail' in my school have to
work hard to do so. They are in a constant battle with teachers and
principals and, if lucky, parents, who want them to succeed. But, many of
them choose to do nothing, and succeed at doing nothing. When they repeat a
grade, they get the same results.

What you say about expulsions is similar to what occurs here. Schools are
'rated' based on many things, but the number of suspensions, expulsions,
and other punishments are also counted. Therefore, principals (even the
female ones) are reluctant to take action.

The system needs work. Too many people think that 99% of the problem is the
teachers. Even Socrates would have had a hard time teaching a turnip!
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

What education?
 

On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 20:31:53 -0400, "RCE" wrote:


" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
...

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:39:03 -0400, JohnH penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:



They were also supported by parents who gave a damn.
You make a good point... and one that I should have addressed. Busing
destroyed the community schools and created a remote location that no
longer carried any oversight from the home or local community. A
recipe for disaster.

Another point to ponder is the number of kids that do not receive
supervision from at least one parent... and this happens when both
parents MUST work to pay the bills. Another recipe for disaster.

Actually no. The problem is not supervision while the parents are working
but the lack of involvement by the parent(s) in their childrens education.
Without the parent(s) attending conferences with the teacher(s) and making
sure their children keep on top of their homework the child is often
destined to fail. All this can be done even with both parents working.

How many kids who are failing in school have mothers or fathers who do not
work and *are* are home? I would guess a fair amount.

If the parents do not care.........why should the child?


My story. Or, rather, my grandkid and daughter's story.

My daughter is the mother of two great, young boys. The oldest finishing
third grade.
He's a normal, healthy, regular eight year old who enjoys bikes, video
games, baseball, tree forts and general screwing around after school
building creations from his dad's supply of 2x4's and scrap plywood.

In school he's an average student ... B's and C's ... with an occasional A
that is cause for celebration and praise. He's quiet ... not a discipline
problem at all, and is well liked by his friends. He's of normal intellect
... no Einstein by any means, but he's not a dummy either. He's a normal kid
with tendencies toward being a bit reflective, thoughtful and maybe a bit
sensitive. He also has a genuine creative mind that is reflected in his
homemade "inventions". He admits to a tendency to "daydream" at times in
school, (a past time that I remember all too well through all my years in
school).

This year, his 23 year old, third grade teacher suggested to my daughter at
a parent/teacher meeting that she suspected he may have ADS and might
benefit from medication to help him focus more on school work. My daughter
was shocked at first, but over time the teacher continued pressure that
medication would help him achieve his "full potential". Remember now, this
is third grade!

After the third or forth discussion, the teacher enlisted the aid of a
school consoler who also favored a further investigation regarding the ADS
diagnosis by the 23 year old teacher. My daughter was becoming emotionally
distraught because she wanted to do the best for her kid, but was reluctant
to start medicating him unless it was absolutely necessary. It got to the
point were she asked the opinion of Mrs.E. and I. Me being me, advised her
to tell the teacher and consoler to take a hike and let the kid be a kid.
After all, I pointed out, the grades the teacher was giving him didn't
appear to be consistent with a kid with a serious learning disability. I
suggested that maybe he could get more A grades by applying more effort, but
we are only talking third grade here, not a senior in high school. My
uneducated, nonprofessional opinion was to let the kid enjoy his childhood
as long as everything was in general balance. The teacher, however, was
now making my daughter feel guilty for not doing what was in the best
interest of the kid. It really became a messy, stressful and emotional
issue. In addition, veiled and subtle references were given to
investigations of parental neglect resulting in some extreme cases.
Recognizing that my advise was not going to help calm her down now that the
issue was getting out of hand, we suggested she have the kid tested and
evaluated by someone other than the 23 year old teacher.

It was agreed to have the kid tested by a school psychologist. Meanwhile, my
daughter consulted with her pediatrician who basically told her the same
thing I had told her .... tell them to take a hike ... the kid's fine. A
meeting was held with the psychologist, the teacher and the school consoler
with my daughter and her husband. The psychologist announced that the
results of the IQ and other tests indicated that the kid was perfectly
normal. The teacher, basically ignoring this, started debating ADS with the
psychologist in front of my daughter and son-in-law and continued to
recommend medication for ADS for the kid. She also, and for the first time,
acknowledged that she was under treatment herself for adult ADS and went on
to explain how it helped her. She even started suggesting what medication
to take and what not to take.

My daughter politely but firmly told her to take a hike, her decision was
made, was final and any further discussion would be with the superintendent
of schools in attendance. That was about 2 months ago. The 23 year old
teacher's latest report is that the kid is doing fine, no problems, average
grades and being a typical, normal third grader.

I am glad my kid raising days are over. The public school system is totally
out of control nowadays, and was heading that way when our kids were young.
Our two oldest attended public schools. The youngest went to a private
school. Fortunately, all survived and have their heads screwed on straight.

RCE


You are condemning the entire public school system based on the actions of
one brand new teacher? That makes little sense to me.

I would have suggested you get the child in a different classroom. The
teacher, in my opinion, was wrong to even mention a possibility of ADS (I
don't know what that is, although I'm very familiar with ADD -attention
deficit disorder. In this county teachers cannot even suggest such a thing
to parents. Teachers can talk to the counselors and principals, and they
can discuss behavior problems, but they are not to be amateur
psychologists.

Your condemnation of public schools because of a 23 year old isn't
justified. Actually your blanket condemnation of public schools isn't
justified. Go sit in a high school B-C Calculus class and remember that the
kids there are a product of public schools.
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

What education?
 

"JohnH" wrote in message
...


You are condemning the entire public school system based on the actions of
one brand new teacher? That makes little sense to me.


Yes, I am. But not just for the example given. And not necessarily for the
individual teachers, as I suspect there are many that are highly modivated
and potentially excellent educators.

It's the change in philosophy of the administration of public education that
sucks.

My example was but one of many happening everyday.



I would have suggested you get the child in a different classroom. The
teacher, in my opinion, was wrong to even mention a possibility of ADS (I
don't know what that is, although I'm very familiar with ADD -attention
deficit disorder. In this county teachers cannot even suggest such a thing
to parents. Teachers can talk to the counselors and principals, and they
can discuss behavior problems, but they are not to be amateur
psychologists.

You're right, it's ADD, not ADS. (thought it was attention deficit syndrome
or something)


Your condemnation of public schools because of a 23 year old isn't
justified.

Agree.


Actually your blanket condemnation of public schools isn't
justified.

Yes, it is.

Go sit in a high school B-C Calculus class and remember that the
kids there are a product of public schools.

What percentage of high school students take a real course in Calculus,
other than maybe a half year introduction? I don't know, but I suspect the
percentage is very small.

RCE

What education?
 

On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 06:28:07 GMT, "CalifBill"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 16:25:21 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:09:33 GMT, Shortwave Sportfishing
wrote:

http://www.break.com/movies/suffrage.html

I couldn't believe it.

I know that this is probably preaching to the choir... since I know
your wife is a teacher, but education is now defined as the ability to
pass a standardized test. It has nothing to do with ability to reason
or accrued knowledge.

A recent newspaper article found that, locally, of 350 applicants,
only 23 of 350 applicants with a high school diploma had adequate
skills in reading, writing, and math to begin entry level college
classes.... but having a high school diploma, we know they can pass
that test! Right?


I wish someone would explain to me why this is true, and exactly what's
happened since I left high school in 1970. It's rather depressing.

Well, for one we now spend all of our time and effort trying to
educate the uneducable. Was a time when we allowed and expected those
who did not want to be in school to leave and those who could not
learn were excluded. Now we dumb down everything to their level. This
includes those who would have been institutionalized in 1970 due to
extremely low IQs and learning disbilities. The current trend ( and
the law "Individuals with Disabilities Education Act") is much better
for most of these groups, but try learning in a class of 20 where two
autistic children are banging their heads against the walls while 2 or
3 retarded children are being attended to by their personal teacher
aids. The class size is much smaller than in 1970 (20 kids vs. 32
kids) and the staffing levels are way up ( a teacher and a couple of
aids assigned to specific children) but the instruction is designed to
a much lower level and the distractions are extreme.

Dave Hall

that plus the fact that the schools all focus on sending the kid to college
to learn. 20% of the population is college material. In the 1950's when I
went to school (graduated HS in 1961) there were shop classes, and other
vocational classes as well as technical vocation HS's. We need these to
schools and classes to keep kids in school and interested in learning. We
need auto mechanics and other vocational arts people for a majority of the
jobs.


Bill, those classes still exist. But, the government mandates what the
educational requirements are, and we still don't have a 'vocational' track
in the system. The public high school just down the road from me has a
great set of vocational classes. Although called an 'academy', it's just
part of the high school.

http://www.fcps.edu/EdisonAcademy/courses.htm
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

What education?
 

On Sat, 8 Apr 2006 09:21:23 -0400, "RCE" wrote:


"JohnH" wrote in message
.. .


You are condemning the entire public school system based on the actions of
one brand new teacher? That makes little sense to me.


Yes, I am. But not just for the example given. And not necessarily for the
individual teachers, as I suspect there are many that are highly modivated
and potentially excellent educators.

It's the change in philosophy of the administration of public education that
sucks.

My example was but one of many happening everyday.



I would have suggested you get the child in a different classroom. The
teacher, in my opinion, was wrong to even mention a possibility of ADS (I
don't know what that is, although I'm very familiar with ADD -attention
deficit disorder. In this county teachers cannot even suggest such a thing
to parents. Teachers can talk to the counselors and principals, and they
can discuss behavior problems, but they are not to be amateur
psychologists.

You're right, it's ADD, not ADS. (thought it was attention deficit syndrome
or something)


Your condemnation of public schools because of a 23 year old isn't
justified.

Agree.


Actually your blanket condemnation of public schools isn't
justified.

Yes, it is.

Go sit in a high school B-C Calculus class and remember that the
kids there are a product of public schools.

What percentage of high school students take a real course in Calculus,
other than maybe a half year introduction? I don't know, but I suspect the
percentage is very small.

RCE



You're damn right it's small! In my school, population of about 2500 high
school students, only about 75 are taking BC Calculus. And yes, it's a
'real' calculus course. About 125 kids are taking AB Calculus. Granted,
that's only about 8% of the high school population, but it's in *high
school*.

Intro to calculus is called "Pre-Calculus", a separate course.
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

What education?
 

"JohnH" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 20:31:53 -0400, "RCE" wrote:


" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
m...

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:39:03 -0400, JohnH penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:



They were also supported by parents who gave a damn.
You make a good point... and one that I should have addressed. Busing
destroyed the community schools and created a remote location that no
longer carried any oversight from the home or local community. A
recipe for disaster.

Another point to ponder is the number of kids that do not receive
supervision from at least one parent... and this happens when both
parents MUST work to pay the bills. Another recipe for disaster.

Actually no. The problem is not supervision while the parents are
working
but the lack of involvement by the parent(s) in their childrens
education.
Without the parent(s) attending conferences with the teacher(s) and
making
sure their children keep on top of their homework the child is often
destined to fail. All this can be done even with both parents working.

How many kids who are failing in school have mothers or fathers who do
not
work and *are* are home? I would guess a fair amount.

If the parents do not care.........why should the child?


My story. Or, rather, my grandkid and daughter's story.

My daughter is the mother of two great, young boys. The oldest finishing
third grade.
He's a normal, healthy, regular eight year old who enjoys bikes, video
games, baseball, tree forts and general screwing around after school
building creations from his dad's supply of 2x4's and scrap plywood.

In school he's an average student ... B's and C's ... with an occasional A
that is cause for celebration and praise. He's quiet ... not a discipline
problem at all, and is well liked by his friends. He's of normal
intellect
... no Einstein by any means, but he's not a dummy either. He's a normal
kid
with tendencies toward being a bit reflective, thoughtful and maybe a bit
sensitive. He also has a genuine creative mind that is reflected in his
homemade "inventions". He admits to a tendency to "daydream" at times in
school, (a past time that I remember all too well through all my years in
school).

This year, his 23 year old, third grade teacher suggested to my daughter
at
a parent/teacher meeting that she suspected he may have ADS and might
benefit from medication to help him focus more on school work. My
daughter
was shocked at first, but over time the teacher continued pressure that
medication would help him achieve his "full potential". Remember now,
this
is third grade!

After the third or forth discussion, the teacher enlisted the aid of a
school consoler who also favored a further investigation regarding the ADS
diagnosis by the 23 year old teacher. My daughter was becoming
emotionally
distraught because she wanted to do the best for her kid, but was
reluctant
to start medicating him unless it was absolutely necessary. It got to the
point were she asked the opinion of Mrs.E. and I. Me being me, advised
her
to tell the teacher and consoler to take a hike and let the kid be a kid.
After all, I pointed out, the grades the teacher was giving him didn't
appear to be consistent with a kid with a serious learning disability. I
suggested that maybe he could get more A grades by applying more effort,
but
we are only talking third grade here, not a senior in high school. My
uneducated, nonprofessional opinion was to let the kid enjoy his childhood
as long as everything was in general balance. The teacher, however, was
now making my daughter feel guilty for not doing what was in the best
interest of the kid. It really became a messy, stressful and emotional
issue. In addition, veiled and subtle references were given to
investigations of parental neglect resulting in some extreme cases.
Recognizing that my advise was not going to help calm her down now that
the
issue was getting out of hand, we suggested she have the kid tested and
evaluated by someone other than the 23 year old teacher.

It was agreed to have the kid tested by a school psychologist. Meanwhile,
my
daughter consulted with her pediatrician who basically told her the same
thing I had told her .... tell them to take a hike ... the kid's fine. A
meeting was held with the psychologist, the teacher and the school
consoler
with my daughter and her husband. The psychologist announced that the
results of the IQ and other tests indicated that the kid was perfectly
normal. The teacher, basically ignoring this, started debating ADS with
the
psychologist in front of my daughter and son-in-law and continued to
recommend medication for ADS for the kid. She also, and for the first
time,
acknowledged that she was under treatment herself for adult ADS and went
on
to explain how it helped her. She even started suggesting what medication
to take and what not to take.

My daughter politely but firmly told her to take a hike, her decision was
made, was final and any further discussion would be with the
superintendent
of schools in attendance. That was about 2 months ago. The 23 year old
teacher's latest report is that the kid is doing fine, no problems,
average
grades and being a typical, normal third grader.

I am glad my kid raising days are over. The public school system is
totally
out of control nowadays, and was heading that way when our kids were
young.
Our two oldest attended public schools. The youngest went to a private
school. Fortunately, all survived and have their heads screwed on
straight.

RCE


You are condemning the entire public school system based on the actions of
one brand new teacher? That makes little sense to me.

I would have suggested you get the child in a different classroom. The
teacher, in my opinion, was wrong to even mention a possibility of ADS (I
don't know what that is, although I'm very familiar with ADD -attention
deficit disorder. In this county teachers cannot even suggest such a thing
to parents. Teachers can talk to the counselors and principals, and they
can discuss behavior problems, but they are not to be amateur
psychologists.

Your condemnation of public schools because of a 23 year old isn't
justified. Actually your blanket condemnation of public schools isn't
justified. Go sit in a high school B-C Calculus class and remember that
the
kids there are a product of public schools.
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

The teachers in Calif can recommend Ritalin and I think the school gets more
money for an ADD student. Follow the money.

What education?
 

"JohnH" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 06:28:07 GMT, "CalifBill"
wrote:


"Dave Hall" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 16:25:21 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
m...
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:09:33 GMT, Shortwave Sportfishing
wrote:

http://www.break.com/movies/suffrage.html

I couldn't believe it.

I know that this is probably preaching to the choir... since I know
your wife is a teacher, but education is now defined as the ability to
pass a standardized test. It has nothing to do with ability to reason
or accrued knowledge.

A recent newspaper article found that, locally, of 350 applicants,
only 23 of 350 applicants with a high school diploma had adequate
skills in reading, writing, and math to begin entry level college
classes.... but having a high school diploma, we know they can pass
that test! Right?


I wish someone would explain to me why this is true, and exactly what's
happened since I left high school in 1970. It's rather depressing.

Well, for one we now spend all of our time and effort trying to
educate the uneducable. Was a time when we allowed and expected those
who did not want to be in school to leave and those who could not
learn were excluded. Now we dumb down everything to their level. This
includes those who would have been institutionalized in 1970 due to
extremely low IQs and learning disbilities. The current trend ( and
the law "Individuals with Disabilities Education Act") is much better
for most of these groups, but try learning in a class of 20 where two
autistic children are banging their heads against the walls while 2 or
3 retarded children are being attended to by their personal teacher
aids. The class size is much smaller than in 1970 (20 kids vs. 32
kids) and the staffing levels are way up ( a teacher and a couple of
aids assigned to specific children) but the instruction is designed to
a much lower level and the distractions are extreme.

Dave Hall

that plus the fact that the schools all focus on sending the kid to
college
to learn. 20% of the population is college material. In the 1950's when
I
went to school (graduated HS in 1961) there were shop classes, and other
vocational classes as well as technical vocation HS's. We need these to
schools and classes to keep kids in school and interested in learning. We
need auto mechanics and other vocational arts people for a majority of
the
jobs.


Bill, those classes still exist. But, the government mandates what the
educational requirements are, and we still don't have a 'vocational' track
in the system. The public high school just down the road from me has a
great set of vocational classes. Although called an 'academy', it's just
part of the high school.

http://www.fcps.edu/EdisonAcademy/courses.htm
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

In most Calif schools there are no shops anymore.

What education?
 

On Sun, 09 Apr 2006 03:52:08 GMT, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"JohnH" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 20:31:53 -0400, "RCE" wrote:


" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message
om...

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:39:03 -0400, JohnH penned the following well
considered thoughts to the readers of rec.boats:



They were also supported by parents who gave a damn.
You make a good point... and one that I should have addressed. Busing
destroyed the community schools and created a remote location that no
longer carried any oversight from the home or local community. A
recipe for disaster.

Another point to ponder is the number of kids that do not receive
supervision from at least one parent... and this happens when both
parents MUST work to pay the bills. Another recipe for disaster.

Actually no. The problem is not supervision while the parents are
working
but the lack of involvement by the parent(s) in their childrens
education.
Without the parent(s) attending conferences with the teacher(s) and
making
sure their children keep on top of their homework the child is often
destined to fail. All this can be done even with both parents working.

How many kids who are failing in school have mothers or fathers who do
not
work and *are* are home? I would guess a fair amount.

If the parents do not care.........why should the child?


My story. Or, rather, my grandkid and daughter's story.

My daughter is the mother of two great, young boys. The oldest finishing
third grade.
He's a normal, healthy, regular eight year old who enjoys bikes, video
games, baseball, tree forts and general screwing around after school
building creations from his dad's supply of 2x4's and scrap plywood.

In school he's an average student ... B's and C's ... with an occasional A
that is cause for celebration and praise. He's quiet ... not a discipline
problem at all, and is well liked by his friends. He's of normal
intellect
... no Einstein by any means, but he's not a dummy either. He's a normal
kid
with tendencies toward being a bit reflective, thoughtful and maybe a bit
sensitive. He also has a genuine creative mind that is reflected in his
homemade "inventions". He admits to a tendency to "daydream" at times in
school, (a past time that I remember all too well through all my years in
school).

This year, his 23 year old, third grade teacher suggested to my daughter
at
a parent/teacher meeting that she suspected he may have ADS and might
benefit from medication to help him focus more on school work. My
daughter
was shocked at first, but over time the teacher continued pressure that
medication would help him achieve his "full potential". Remember now,
this
is third grade!

After the third or forth discussion, the teacher enlisted the aid of a
school consoler who also favored a further investigation regarding the ADS
diagnosis by the 23 year old teacher. My daughter was becoming
emotionally
distraught because she wanted to do the best for her kid, but was
reluctant
to start medicating him unless it was absolutely necessary. It got to the
point were she asked the opinion of Mrs.E. and I. Me being me, advised
her
to tell the teacher and consoler to take a hike and let the kid be a kid.
After all, I pointed out, the grades the teacher was giving him didn't
appear to be consistent with a kid with a serious learning disability. I
suggested that maybe he could get more A grades by applying more effort,
but
we are only talking third grade here, not a senior in high school. My
uneducated, nonprofessional opinion was to let the kid enjoy his childhood
as long as everything was in general balance. The teacher, however, was
now making my daughter feel guilty for not doing what was in the best
interest of the kid. It really became a messy, stressful and emotional
issue. In addition, veiled and subtle references were given to
investigations of parental neglect resulting in some extreme cases.
Recognizing that my advise was not going to help calm her down now that
the
issue was getting out of hand, we suggested she have the kid tested and
evaluated by someone other than the 23 year old teacher.

It was agreed to have the kid tested by a school psychologist. Meanwhile,
my
daughter consulted with her pediatrician who basically told her the same
thing I had told her .... tell them to take a hike ... the kid's fine. A
meeting was held with the psychologist, the teacher and the school
consoler
with my daughter and her husband. The psychologist announced that the
results of the IQ and other tests indicated that the kid was perfectly
normal. The teacher, basically ignoring this, started debating ADS with
the
psychologist in front of my daughter and son-in-law and continued to
recommend medication for ADS for the kid. She also, and for the first
time,
acknowledged that she was under treatment herself for adult ADS and went
on
to explain how it helped her. She even started suggesting what medication
to take and what not to take.

My daughter politely but firmly told her to take a hike, her decision was
made, was final and any further discussion would be with the
superintendent
of schools in attendance. That was about 2 months ago. The 23 year old
teacher's latest report is that the kid is doing fine, no problems,
average
grades and being a typical, normal third grader.

I am glad my kid raising days are over. The public school system is
totally
out of control nowadays, and was heading that way when our kids were
young.
Our two oldest attended public schools. The youngest went to a private
school. Fortunately, all survived and have their heads screwed on
straight.

RCE


You are condemning the entire public school system based on the actions of
one brand new teacher? That makes little sense to me.

I would have suggested you get the child in a different classroom. The
teacher, in my opinion, was wrong to even mention a possibility of ADS (I
don't know what that is, although I'm very familiar with ADD -attention
deficit disorder. In this county teachers cannot even suggest such a thing
to parents. Teachers can talk to the counselors and principals, and they
can discuss behavior problems, but they are not to be amateur
psychologists.

Your condemnation of public schools because of a 23 year old isn't
justified. Actually your blanket condemnation of public schools isn't
justified. Go sit in a high school B-C Calculus class and remember that
the
kids there are a product of public schools.
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

The teachers in Calif can recommend Ritalin and I think the school gets more
money for an ADD student. Follow the money.


That's California. Nothing would surprise me. Actually, I'm surprised that
the teachers out there can't just write the prescriptions for Ritalin!
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

What education?
 

"JohnH" wrote in message
...


The teachers in Calif can recommend Ritalin and I think the school gets
more
money for an ADD student. Follow the money.


That's California. Nothing would surprise me. Actually, I'm surprised that
the teachers out there can't just write the prescriptions for Ritalin!
--
'Til next time,

John H


Are teachers still allowed to yell really loud at kids? I had a Latin
teacher who was a former USMC sergeant. He seemed able to retain eye contact
with 20 kids all at once. It was a very bad idea to break eye contact and
look at anything outside the window. He would "address" offenders in a voice
that rattled the dropped ceiling tiles. :-) If ADHD or its cousins existed
in 1968, it was apparently afraid to be seen in public.

What education?
 

Go sit in a high school B-C Calculus class and remember that the
kids there are a product of public schools.
What percentage of high school students take a real course in Calculus,
other than maybe a half year introduction? I don't know, but I suspect the
percentage is very small.


Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
Less than 2% locally.

Must be something in the water.

Around here about 15% of the kids are in honors math. I used
to to tutor some of them. They easily test out of freshman
calculus when they get to college.

Pardon me for allowing facts to interrupt a partisan screed.

DSK

What education?
 

On Sun, 09 Apr 2006 12:56:25 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"JohnH" wrote in message
.. .


The teachers in Calif can recommend Ritalin and I think the school gets
more
money for an ADD student. Follow the money.


That's California. Nothing would surprise me. Actually, I'm surprised that
the teachers out there can't just write the prescriptions for Ritalin!
--
'Til next time,

John H


Are teachers still allowed to yell really loud at kids? I had a Latin
teacher who was a former USMC sergeant. He seemed able to retain eye contact
with 20 kids all at once. It was a very bad idea to break eye contact and
look at anything outside the window. He would "address" offenders in a voice
that rattled the dropped ceiling tiles. :-) If ADHD or its cousins existed
in 1968, it was apparently afraid to be seen in public.


Yelling is allowed, but I've found that going SSSSSHHHHHH, loudly, works
better than anything for getting a class quiet.
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

What education?
 

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 06:47:36 -0400, DSK wrote:

Go sit in a high school B-C Calculus class and remember that the
kids there are a product of public schools.
What percentage of high school students take a real course in Calculus,
other than maybe a half year introduction? I don't know, but I suspect
the
percentage is very small.


Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
Less than 2% locally.

Must be something in the water.

Around here about 15% of the kids are in honors math. I used
to to tutor some of them. They easily test out of freshman
calculus when they get to college.

Pardon me for allowing facts to interrupt a partisan screed.

I noticed that in the national stats - kind of interesting.

Do you have a higher population of Asian kids than we do around here?

Well....you ARE in Connecticut, after all. :)

What education?
 

"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 23:13:51 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:


"Shortwave Sportfishing" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 06:47:36 -0400, DSK wrote:

Go sit in a high school B-C Calculus class and remember that the
kids there are a product of public schools.
What percentage of high school students take a real course in
Calculus,
other than maybe a half year introduction? I don't know, but I
suspect
the
percentage is very small.


Shortwave Sportfishing wrote:
Less than 2% locally.

Must be something in the water.

Around here about 15% of the kids are in honors math. I used
to to tutor some of them. They easily test out of freshman
calculus when they get to college.

Pardon me for allowing facts to interrupt a partisan screed.

I noticed that in the national stats - kind of interesting.

Do you have a higher population of Asian kids than we do around here?

Well....you ARE in Connecticut, after all. :)

Hey!! I'll have you know we have one minority in town.

That should be sufficient. :)

Really, it's a serious question.

One minority? Person who can identify its father? :-)

What education?
 

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...

I was amused by one direction that this thread had taken... Think
about it: If we are going to send all of those mundane low paying jobs
overseas and keep those high paying computer jobs here..... you know,
do what we do best..... why shouldn't we do away with technical
programs?...do we really need anything but college prep classrooms?

That's a depressing thought. I'm already in a quandary about what to do when
my mechanic and his partner retire. Probably switch to a horse. It took 15
years of aggravation before I found these guys. I really don't want to
repeat the process.

What education?
 

..... why shouldn't we do away with technical
programs?...do we really need anything but college prep classrooms?

Doug Kanter wrote:
That's a depressing thought. I'm already in a quandary about what to do when
my mechanic and his partner retire. Probably switch to a horse. It took 15
years of aggravation before I found these guys. I really don't want to
repeat the process.


Don't worry about it, there will always be mechanics. And of
those mechanics, half will be below average and 10% (or so)
will be excellent. Of course, they'll charge $150 bucks an
hour, but then, that's what you gotta pay somebody to do
actual work instead of sit in an air conditioned cubicle and
play video games all day.
;)

DSK

What education?
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...
..... why shouldn't we do away with technical
programs?...do we really need anything but college prep classrooms?

Doug Kanter wrote:
That's a depressing thought. I'm already in a quandary about what to do
when my mechanic and his partner retire. Probably switch to a horse. It
took 15 years of aggravation before I found these guys. I really don't
want to repeat the process.

Don't worry about it, there will always be mechanics. And of those
mechanics, half will be below average and 10% (or so) will be excellent.
Of course, they'll charge $150 bucks an hour, but then, that's what you
gotta pay somebody to do actual work instead of sit in an air conditioned
cubicle and play video games all day.
;)

DSK


I hope you're right. I just had some recall work done on the truck. Against
my better judgement, I let the dealership's idiots do an oil change, too.
Went to pick up the truck and found oil dripping underneath. You're supposed
to remove the skid plate, which is a major undertaking involving 4 small
bolts. The plate gets full of oil when the drain cap's removed. The service
writer's comment: "It don't drip for very long". I put my credit card back
in my wallet and had them finish the job. I got the feeling they wouldn't
want to stop by and clean my driveway.

What education?
 

Don't worry about it, there will always be mechanics. And of those
mechanics, half will be below average and 10% (or so) will be excellent.


Doug Kanter wrote:
I hope you're right. I just had some recall work done on the truck. Against
my better judgement, I let the dealership's idiots do an oil change, too.
Went to pick up the truck and found oil dripping underneath. You're supposed
to remove the skid plate, which is a major undertaking involving 4 small
bolts. The plate gets full of oil when the drain cap's removed. The service
writer's comment: "It don't drip for very long".

You're right, he's a moron. Guys like that should have no
connection whatever with any technical service.


.... I put my credit card back
in my wallet and had them finish the job. I got the feeling they wouldn't
want to stop by and clean my driveway.


If you ask around discretely, you can find out which auto
shops (dealers & otherwise) pay the service writers a
commission on each job. Avoid those places like the plague.
Believe it or not, our local Toyota dealer doesn't do this
(it's depressingly common practice). Which is good, because
my wife has really tried to kill this car... the fact that
it's still driving pretty well (95k miles) is a testament to
it's original quality.

Regards
Doug King

What education?
 

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Don't worry about it, there will always be mechanics. And of those
mechanics, half will be below average and 10% (or so) will be excellent.


Doug Kanter wrote:
I hope you're right. I just had some recall work done on the truck.
Against my better judgement, I let the dealership's idiots do an oil
change, too. Went to pick up the truck and found oil dripping underneath.
You're supposed to remove the skid plate, which is a major undertaking
involving 4 small bolts. The plate gets full of oil when the drain cap's
removed. The service writer's comment: "It don't drip for very long".

You're right, he's a moron. Guys like that should have no connection
whatever with any technical service.


.... I put my credit card back in my wallet and had them finish the job.
I got the feeling they wouldn't want to stop by and clean my driveway.

If you ask around discretely, you can find out which auto shops (dealers &
otherwise) pay the service writers a commission on each job. Avoid those
places like the plague. Believe it or not, our local Toyota dealer doesn't
do this (it's depressingly common practice). Which is good, because my
wife has really tried to kill this car... the fact that it's still driving
pretty well (95k miles) is a testament to it's original quality.

Regards
Doug King


Last Saturday, on the PBS Car Talk show, a doctor called to say that his
wife wanted him to get rid of his Camry, with 95K miles, because she didn't
think it was proper for a doctor to drive a car that old. The caller was
looking for ammo for his ongoing debate with the mrs. The car guys made it
simple: They said that in Los Angeles, where the caller lived (no road salt,
in other words), a Camry with such low mileage wasn't even broken in yet. :)

What education?
 

(Toyota Camry) really tried to kill this car... that it's still driving
pretty well (95k miles) is a testament to it's original quality.



Doug Kanter wrote:
Last Saturday, on the PBS Car Talk show, a doctor called to say that his
wife wanted him to get rid of his Camry, with 95K miles, because she didn't
think it was proper for a doctor to drive a car that old.

Ha!

.... The caller was
looking for ammo for his ongoing debate with the mrs. The car guys made it
simple: They said that in Los Angeles, where the caller lived (no road salt,
in other words), a Camry with such low mileage wasn't even broken in yet. :)


And this is a problem for car mfrs. How do you sell new cars
when everybody already has one that will last for years? At
least the good ones don't put themselves out of business any
more, like Stutz & Studebaker.

Many people still have the 'buy a new Cadillac every year'
mentality but there are lots more things to spend your
conspicuous consumption dollars on nowadays. And the
industry is inevitably shrinking. Same problem affects other
industries too.

But of course, that's dangerous libby-rull traitor stuff.
Shuck just admitting that you listen to PBS will get your
family sent to the re-education camps.

DSK

What education?
 

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 09:34:16 -0400 in rec.boats, JohnH penned the
following thoughts:

Bill, those classes still exist. But, the government mandates what the
educational requirements are, and we still don't have a 'vocational' track
in the system. The public high school just down the road from me has a
great set of vocational classes. Although called an 'academy', it's just
part of the high school.

http://www.fcps.edu/EdisonAcademy/courses.htm

In most parts of the country this just is no longer true. The
machinery has been sold off, the labs/shops converted to classrooms,
and if *anything* of vocational nature remains, it would be one of
those silly, pointless, babysitting "career exploration" classes.


One reason for this is that the loss of behavior control at the
teacher's level made for a more dangerous experience. Wimpy
administrators, unwilling to do the right thing with respect to
behavior, found it much easier to close those rooms and turn them into
"college bound" classrooms... lowered the insurance bills and kept the
more affluent parents happier, anyway.....

I was amused by one direction that this thread had taken... Think
about it: If we are going to send all of those mundane low paying jobs
overseas and keep those high paying computer jobs here..... you know,
do what we do best..... why shouldn't we do away with technical
programs?...do we really need anything but college prep classrooms?

--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.


Very good column on Voc Ed in to days loacl newspaper.
http://www.insidebayarea.com/opinion/tribune/ci_3697382

And to see why we can not boat the rivers at the present time,
http://www.insidebayarea.com/trivalleyherald/ci_3697320

No boats except for emergency workers. Stops the wake from causing more
danger.

What education?
 

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
nk.net...

And to see why we can not boat the rivers at the present time,
http://www.insidebayarea.com/trivalleyherald/ci_3697320

"VERNALIS - They already were sand-bagging Monday afternoon at Manteca
Sportsman's Club."

Manteca = fat, lard or butter in Spanish. What the hell kind of sportsmen
frequent that club?

What education?
 

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 20:19:23 GMT, "Calif Bill"
wrote:


"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 09:34:16 -0400 in rec.boats, JohnH penned the
following thoughts:

Bill, those classes still exist. But, the government mandates what the
educational requirements are, and we still don't have a 'vocational' track
in the system. The public high school just down the road from me has a
great set of vocational classes. Although called an 'academy', it's just
part of the high school.

http://www.fcps.edu/EdisonAcademy/courses.htm

In most parts of the country this just is no longer true. The
machinery has been sold off, the labs/shops converted to classrooms,
and if *anything* of vocational nature remains, it would be one of
those silly, pointless, babysitting "career exploration" classes.


One reason for this is that the loss of behavior control at the
teacher's level made for a more dangerous experience. Wimpy
administrators, unwilling to do the right thing with respect to
behavior, found it much easier to close those rooms and turn them into
"college bound" classrooms... lowered the insurance bills and kept the
more affluent parents happier, anyway.....

I was amused by one direction that this thread had taken... Think
about it: If we are going to send all of those mundane low paying jobs
overseas and keep those high paying computer jobs here..... you know,
do what we do best..... why shouldn't we do away with technical
programs?...do we really need anything but college prep classrooms?

--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Oak Island, NC.


Very good column on Voc Ed in to days loacl newspaper.
http://www.insidebayarea.com/opinion/tribune/ci_3697382

And to see why we can not boat the rivers at the present time,
http://www.insidebayarea.com/trivalleyherald/ci_3697320

No boats except for emergency workers. Stops the wake from causing more
danger.


Good for Arnold. He may talk funny, but he seems to have a good head on his
shoulders.
--
'Til next time,

John H

******************************************
***** Have a Spectacular Day! *****
******************************************

What education?
 

"JohnH" wrote in message
...

Good for Arnold. He may talk funny, but he seems to have a good head on
his
shoulders.

I've seen him interviewed on talk shows. He is definitely NOT a stupid man.