"riverman" wrote in message ...

With waders, you can easily swim if they are filled with water, with any
amount of water in them. In fact, its a bit easier to move if they have
large volumes of water in them, as the waders don't constrict your body so
much.

Yowp. I misstated, not having reread my experiment report before I posted
here. With waders, it is EASIER to swim when they are dry, as the water
pressure keeps the fabric pressed tightly to your body and you have no
interference. Once they have some water in them, they 'billow' and its like
trying to run with oversized jeans on. Not impossible, but harder.

--riverman

riverman wrote:
"riverman" wrote in message ...

With waders, you can easily swim if they are filled with water, with any
amount of water in them. In fact, its a bit easier to move if they have
large volumes of water in them, as the waders don't constrict your body so
much.

Yowp. I misstated, not having reread my experiment report before I posted
here. With waders, it is EASIER to swim when they are dry, as the water
pressure keeps the fabric pressed tightly to your body and you have no
interference. Once they have some water in them, they 'billow' and its like
trying to run with oversized jeans on. Not impossible, but harder.

--riverman

I would expect that being in a pool, and being in fast running WW would
also make a huge difference. The moving water would be pulling you down
at a much higher rate than the weight of gravity keeping you from
getting out of the pool. HYY

"Hanta-Yo-Yo" wrote in message
oups.com...

riverman wrote:
"riverman" wrote in message
...

With waders, you can easily swim if they are filled with water, with
any
amount of water in them. In fact, its a bit easier to move if they have
large volumes of water in them, as the waders don't constrict your body
so
much.

Yowp. I misstated, not having reread my experiment report before I posted
here. With waders, it is EASIER to swim when they are dry, as the water
pressure keeps the fabric pressed tightly to your body and you have no
interference. Once they have some water in them, they 'billow' and its
like
trying to run with oversized jeans on. Not impossible, but harder.

--riverman

I would expect that being in a pool, and being in fast running WW would
also make a huge difference. The moving water would be pulling you down
at a much higher rate than the weight of gravity keeping you from
getting out of the pool. HYY


I'm not sure of the meaning of your post, HAA. Are you stating that a full
drysuit will 'pull you under'?

When you are immersed in the water, you have neutral buoyancy...drysuit or
not, full or not, and moving water or not. If your suit is full of water,
you have much higher mass, therefore you cannot change direction, catch an
eddy, or hold on to a handhold so easily, but there shouldn't be any new
forces trying to submerge you.

Moving water doesn't 'pull you down', it only moves you around. The
increased mass would equally tend to keep you from being submerged by a
swirly as it would prohibit you swimming to the surface when you were under.
The primary deleterious effect of having water in your drysuit is that you
cannot get out of the water, and that you are a large mass on the end of a
throwline.

--riverman

riverman wrote:
"Hanta-Yo-Yo" wrote in message
oups.com...

I would expect that being in a pool, and being in fast running WW would
also make a huge difference. The moving water would be pulling you down
at a much higher rate than the weight of gravity keeping you from
getting out of the pool. HYY


I'm not sure of the meaning of your post, HAA. Are you stating that a full
drysuit will 'pull you under'?

When you are immersed in the water, you have neutral buoyancy...drysuit or
not, full or not, and moving water or not. If your suit is full of water,
you have much higher mass, therefore you cannot change direction, catch an
eddy, or hold on to a handhold so easily, but there shouldn't be any new
forces trying to submerge you.

Moving water doesn't 'pull you down', it only moves you around. The
increased mass would equally tend to keep you from being submerged by a
swirly as it would prohibit you swimming to the surface when you were under.
The primary deleterious effect of having water in your drysuit is that you
cannot get out of the water, and that you are a large mass on the end of a
throwline.

Wasn't it Larry Cable who had a bad swim a couple of years ago when his
drysuit filled with water?

I was thinking that since, as a kayaker, I have a tight fitting neoprene
seal (in the form of a spraydeck) around my waste, that should keep the
water out of the lower part of my suit.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilkoa t)dse(d o tnl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

"Wilko" wrote in message
...
riverman wrote:

Moving water doesn't 'pull you down', it only moves you around. The
increased mass would equally tend to keep you from being submerged by a
swirly as it would prohibit you swimming to the surface when you were
under. The primary deleterious effect of having water in your drysuit is
that you cannot get out of the water, and that you are a large mass on
the end of a throwline.

Wasn't it Larry Cable who had a bad swim a couple of years ago when his
drysuit filled with water?

Possibly, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that the problem wasn't in being
'pulled under' as much as it was with being unable to change direction. And
being unable to pull himself out of the water.


I was thinking that since, as a kayaker, I have a tight fitting neoprene
seal (in the form of a spraydeck) around my waste, that should keep the
water out of the lower part of my suit.


Yep, that should do it. Good thing, too. As a rafter, I never appreciated
the importance of having some sort of waistband; but now that I know the
impact of having a leak in a drysuit, I'd strongly encourage any rafters who
wear drysuits to also include a wading belt to seal off the lower half.
Imagine trying to get pulled into a boat when you weigh over 500 pounds.
Hmmm, that makes me think of another good use for a relief zipper....its one
way to let out all the water down to your crotch!

--riverman

riverman wrote:
"Wilko" wrote in message
...
riverman wrote:

Moving water doesn't 'pull you down', it only moves you around. The
increased mass would equally tend to keep you from being submerged by a
swirly as it would prohibit you swimming to the surface when you were
under. The primary deleterious effect of having water in your drysuit is
that you cannot get out of the water, and that you are a large mass on
the end of a throwline.

Wasn't it Larry Cable who had a bad swim a couple of years ago when his
drysuit filled with water?

Possibly, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that the problem wasn't in being
'pulled under' as much as it was with being unable to change direction. And
being unable to pull himself out of the water.


I was thinking that since, as a kayaker, I have a tight fitting neoprene
seal (in the form of a spraydeck) around my waste, that should keep the
water out of the lower part of my suit.


Yep, that should do it. Good thing, too. As a rafter, I never appreciated
the importance of having some sort of waistband; but now that I know the
impact of having a leak in a drysuit, I'd strongly encourage any rafters who
wear drysuits to also include a wading belt to seal off the lower half.
Imagine trying to get pulled into a boat when you weigh over 500 pounds.
Hmmm, that makes me think of another good use for a relief zipper....its one
way to let out all the water down to your crotch!

--riverman

I did read some acct where a kayaker had a real dangerous incident
occur with a dry suit, where it had torn, and he could not recover from
a wet exit.

Your correct riverman, when you say you are equal mass with the
surrounding water, but that could put you on the bottom of the river,
bouncing along downstream and no way to resist the force of the water,
or swim to the surface. You have become a part of the river, and where
the river goes, so go you. Not a problem for the rest of the water,
just for you if you still feel the need to breathe.

The problem with the open top waders, is that the waders act like a
drift anchor, and forms a resistant force equal to the amount of water
displaced, and the velocity of the water, and I believe this force
would increase logrithmically. In other words it would get very large,
very fast. No one holding on to a throw line would be able to pull you
out. You would eventually reach some sort of terminal velocity, that
would however be going alot faster than you would feel comfortable
with, and probably taking you where you did not intend to go. At least
not quite yet.

I corresponded with various Dry suit designers, and ended up with a two
piece Palm for the exact reasons you are discussing. The wide waist
seal compartmentalizes the suit like a bulkhead. Also the suit can be
cut to a closer fit to minimalize the amount of volume inside the suit,
ie less water volume. You can vent water out of the suit if necessary,
and with ankle seals and booties. Cold wet feet can be a problem, not
being able to breathe a bigger problem!

With the two piece design, there are also no zippers to leak and need
replacing. And most important, You can go # 1 and # 2 without being
Houdini!

Now as far as the suit that Wilko has, it still sounds like an
excellent find. I would just have a strategy, like keeping a knife
handy if you had to cut some vent holes...HYY

"Hanta-Yo-Yo" wrote in message
oups.com...

I did read some acct where a kayaker had a real dangerous incident
occur with a dry suit, where it had torn, and he could not recover from
a wet exit.

Your correct riverman, when you say you are equal mass with the
surrounding water, but that could put you on the bottom of the river,
bouncing along downstream and no way to resist the force of the water,

Why is that? The river water isn't all on the bottom. I didn't say you'd
have equal mass with the water (although that's basically correct), I said
you'd have neutral buoyancy...which is technically incorrect as you still
have your PFD on which provides positive buoyancy. The effect of a full
drysuit would be that you have more inertia: it would be hard to change
directions (so yes, when you are under the surface, it would be hard to get
to the top), but you would also find that once you were on the top, it would
take a slight bit longer to get dragged down under. Its like swimming in
molasses. Unfortunately, you still have the same amount of breath when you
DO go under, so the longer time spent below the surface would be very
serious. But there wouldn't be any special forces holding you to the
*bottom* of the river.

The problem with the open top waders, is that the waders act like a
drift anchor,

Only if there is a velocity differential between you and the current. If you
are free-floating, they don't act as a drift anchor at all. But once you try
to stop yourself, THEN they act like a drift anchor. Additionally, like a
drift anchor, they will tend to keep you in the faster current.

and forms a resistant force equal to the amount of water
displaced, and the velocity of the water, and I believe this force
would increase logrithmically. In other words it would get very large,
very fast.

Umm, actually a log curve flattens out pretty quickly. You may be thinking
that it increases exponentially, which does get very large, very fast.
Remember, you're talking to a HS math teacher here...and I'd have to give
you pretty low marks on your armwaving. g

No one holding on to a throw line would be able to pull you
out. You would eventually reach some sort of terminal velocity, that
would however be going alot faster than you would feel comfortable
with, and probably taking you where you did not intend to go. At least
not quite yet.

You'd end up going at the velocity of the river, which is the same velocity
you'd be going if you were nude. The difference is that you (or other
people) would find it extremely difficult to change your velocity, because
you'd basically have a mass three or four times your normal mass. When that
mass is multiplied by the velocity of the river, it'd be like trying to stop
the Queen Mary.

--riverman

Per Hanta-Yo-Yo:
I corresponded with various Dry suit designers, and ended up with a two
piece Palm for the exact reasons you are discussing. The wide waist
seal compartmentalizes the suit like a bulkhead. Also the suit can be
cut to a closer fit to minimalize the amount of volume inside the suit,
ie less water volume. You can vent water out of the suit if necessary,
and with ankle seals and booties. Cold wet feet can be a problem, not
being able to breathe a bigger problem!

With the two piece design, there are also no zippers to leak and need
replacing. And most important, You can go # 1 and # 2 without being
Houdini!

Before buying my Kokatat bag suit, I had a couple of Bare "Polar" dry suits.
These were basically a neoprene farmer john bonded to a nylon bag top. They
gave all the upper-body mobility I could ever want while providing floatation,
bruise-resistance, and streamlining (for swimming) on the bottom.

Only reasons I moved to the Kokatat we
-----------------------------------------
- The second Bare finally wore out,
- They'd changed the cut of the john in such a way that I didn't care for it,
- The whole suit was so heavy/warm that I needed a "spring suit" to supplement
it during the times when it was too warm for the Polar but too cold for just
shorts and a t-shirt.
-----------------------------------------

The Kokatat is nice, but I'm getting closer and closer to indulging a recurrent
fantasy of getting a glued-and-taped lightweight john plus one of those dry tops
that have an elastic waistband.

Seems to me like the john/dry top is the best of both worlds except for
entry/exit. You get the unlimited upper-body mobility, you get the
protection/floatation/streamlining of neoprene, and, even though you get the
drainability of ankle cuffs, drainability becomes a non-issue because the john
is a tight fit.

Also you get an acceptable degree of adjustability. You can wear just the john,
just the top, or both together with varying supplemental layers under the top.
You could even have two johns: something like 2mm and a 5mm for warm/cold water.

I always wear neo booties under my surf shoes anyhow to reduce bruising on my
feet, and maybe having calf zippers on the john would mitigate the remaining
entry/exit issue.
--
PeteCresswell

riverman wrote:

I was thinking that since, as a kayaker, I have a tight fitting neoprene
seal (in the form of a spraydeck) around my waste, that should keep the
water out of the lower part of my suit.

Yep, that should do it. Good thing, too. As a rafter, I never appreciated
the importance of having some sort of waistband; but now that I know the
impact of having a leak in a drysuit, I'd strongly encourage any rafters who
wear drysuits to also include a wading belt to seal off the lower half.

A dry suit with a double tunnel would accomplish the same thing. It's
like wearing a cummerbund.

Per riverman:
When you are immersed in the water, you have neutral buoyancy...drysuit or
not, full or not, and moving water or not. If your suit is full of water,
you have much higher mass, therefore you cannot change direction, catch an
eddy, or hold on to a handhold so easily, but there shouldn't be any new
forces trying to submerge you.

I don't have any experience in moving water, but my take on a flooded dry suit
is that the two biggest problems a

- Cold. Most people don't wear neoprene under the suit, so once it's full
of water, you're practically naked. Not totally unless the suit is
flushing a lot, but close enough....

- Getting out of the water. I'd guess you can flop your torso over a boat,
but being able to lift a water-filled leg would seem impossible.


Couple years ago I read a survival story by a couple of HobieCat sailors.
They didn't even tear a seal or anything. They capsized the boat in heavy
air and, in repeated attempts to right it, managed to take in enough water
through the seals (like, I guess, when you make a fist and those little
channels open up around the wrist tendons...) that the PolarTec under the
suits became sufficiently saturated that they no longer had the strength
the clamber back up on the lower hull of the capsized catamaran. They said
that they would've been dead if a power boat hadn't finally come along.
--
PeteCresswell