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Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
Harry,
I haven't been around long enough to know the history behind the animosity between you (and others) and Skipper. I do not want to talk about that! What I do want to know is why the personal attack on his boat, a bayliner, over and over. For example, "10-12 acres. Perfect size for Skip and that Bayliner." From the tone of the post I pulled the quote from, and others that I've read, I'm interpreting the bayliner comment as a slur on the boat. I understand that each of us has our boat and they're all different, but each gets us into the water whether it's a small lake with a no wake limit or the limitless ocean. So I'm wondering why the relentless attack on the make or model of a boat. If I've misinterpreted what I've been reading, just let me know, otherwise I'm curious about the motivation for the repetitive attacks, or slurs. Bryan Sea Ray 185 Sport |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
Bryan wrote: Harry, I haven't been around long enough to know the history behind the animosity between you (and others) and Skipper. I do not want to talk about that! What I do want to know is why the personal attack on his boat, a bayliner, over and over. For example, "10-12 acres. Perfect size for Skip and that Bayliner." From the tone of the post I pulled the quote from, and others that I've read, I'm interpreting the bayliner comment as a slur on the boat. I understand that each of us has our boat and they're all different, but each gets us into the water whether it's a small lake with a no wake limit or the limitless ocean. So I'm wondering why the relentless attack on the make or model of a boat. If I've misinterpreted what I've been reading, just let me know, otherwise I'm curious about the motivation for the repetitive attacks, or slurs. Bryan Sea Ray 185 Sport There was a period of time when Bayliner built some marginal boats. Maybe marginal is too optimistic a term. It wasn't any secret to anybody in the industry or even shopping for a boat that Bayliner was, at that time, suitable only for the most protected waterways and inland lakes and sometimes then, just barely. Fit and finish were miserable, design was questionable, fixtures and equipment mostly bottom of the line. These cheaply built boats were sold at cheap prices, and therefore in some large numbers to a group of people who usually didn't know much about a boat when they bought one. The frustrated competitors watched sale after sale after sale go to the "low, low, monthly payment" Bayliner dealer, when, in most cases, the competitors were justified in believing they had a better boat. Unable or unwilling to build down to the same price point, "Bayliner is Crap!" became a sales strategy throughout the industry. The good news is.......that's ancient history. You still run into people who are just beginning to shop for a boat who will say, "I don't know much about boats, but I do know that all Bayliners are crap." If that's what they think they know, then they don't actually know anything about boats at all. Brunswick has replaced a lot of the mini-wage, unskilled, short-employment-trainee level help that used to assemble the boats with state of the art CAD and high tech production techniques. Things that used to fit badly now fit well. A lot of the plywood has been taken out of the boats. While top-of-the-line hardware and fittings are still rare on Bayliners, it's just as hard to find the ulta-cheapo, "breaks off in your hand or under stress" loosely cast zinc and plastic stuff that prevailed once upon a time. In conversation with some of the regional Bayliner execs, they typically address quality and value issues with statements similar to: "We don't claim to make the best boat in the whole world. We want to build a safe, sturdy, well designed boat that the average family might be able to afford. We'll let other builders worry about being more elite than everybody else in sight, our buyers are more interested in having fun on the water than in worrying about how impressed somebody else is going to be with the nameplate on the side of the boat." I personally know a number of people who own Bayliners. Several of them bought their Bayliners after many years of experience boating with other brands of boats. Just after taking delivery of a new 33-footer several years ago, one of my friends remarked "If you had told me this time last year that my next new boat would be a Bayliner, I would have said you were nuts. Because I was skeptical about the brand name, I looked this boat over at least a half dozen times before I decided to buy it. I kept looking for a reason *not* to buy it, and couldn't find one, and in the process I discovered a bunch of things about it that I like very much." IMO, the newer and or the larger the Bayliner- the better the boat. They still build a little 16-footer that sells for close to $10k and is built strictly to be an entry level boat. It's not really indicative of the brand any more than the Geo Metro was ever indicative of General Motors. |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
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Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
wrote in message oups.com... Bryan wrote: Harry, I haven't been around long enough to know the history behind the animosity between you (and others) and Skipper. I do not want to talk about that! What I do want to know is why the personal attack on his boat, a bayliner, over and over. For example, "10-12 acres. Perfect size for Skip and that Bayliner." From the tone of the post I pulled the quote from, and others that I've read, I'm interpreting the bayliner comment as a slur on the boat. I understand that each of us has our boat and they're all different, but each gets us into the water whether it's a small lake with a no wake limit or the limitless ocean. So I'm wondering why the relentless attack on the make or model of a boat. If I've misinterpreted what I've been reading, just let me know, otherwise I'm curious about the motivation for the repetitive attacks, or slurs. Bryan Sea Ray 185 Sport There was a period of time when Bayliner built some marginal boats. Maybe marginal is too optimistic a term. It wasn't any secret to anybody in the industry or even shopping for a boat that Bayliner was, at that time, suitable only for the most protected waterways and inland lakes and sometimes then, just barely. Fit and finish were miserable, design was questionable, fixtures and equipment mostly bottom of the line. These cheaply built boats were sold at cheap prices, and therefore in some large numbers to a group of people who usually didn't know much about a boat when they bought one. The frustrated competitors watched sale after sale after sale go to the "low, low, monthly payment" Bayliner dealer, when, in most cases, the competitors were justified in believing they had a better boat. Unable or unwilling to build down to the same price point, "Bayliner is Crap!" became a sales strategy throughout the industry. The good news is.......that's ancient history. You still run into people who are just beginning to shop for a boat who will say, "I don't know much about boats, but I do know that all Bayliners are crap." If that's what they think they know, then they don't actually know anything about boats at all. Brunswick has replaced a lot of the mini-wage, unskilled, short-employment-trainee level help that used to assemble the boats with state of the art CAD and high tech production techniques. Things that used to fit badly now fit well. A lot of the plywood has been taken out of the boats. While top-of-the-line hardware and fittings are still rare on Bayliners, it's just as hard to find the ulta-cheapo, "breaks off in your hand or under stress" loosely cast zinc and plastic stuff that prevailed once upon a time. In conversation with some of the regional Bayliner execs, they typically address quality and value issues with statements similar to: "We don't claim to make the best boat in the whole world. We want to build a safe, sturdy, well designed boat that the average family might be able to afford. We'll let other builders worry about being more elite than everybody else in sight, our buyers are more interested in having fun on the water than in worrying about how impressed somebody else is going to be with the nameplate on the side of the boat." I personally know a number of people who own Bayliners. Several of them bought their Bayliners after many years of experience boating with other brands of boats. Just after taking delivery of a new 33-footer several years ago, one of my friends remarked "If you had told me this time last year that my next new boat would be a Bayliner, I would have said you were nuts. Because I was skeptical about the brand name, I looked this boat over at least a half dozen times before I decided to buy it. I kept looking for a reason *not* to buy it, and couldn't find one, and in the process I discovered a bunch of things about it that I like very much." IMO, the newer and or the larger the Bayliner- the better the boat. They still build a little 16-footer that sells for close to $10k and is built strictly to be an entry level boat. It's not really indicative of the brand any more than the Geo Metro was ever indicative of General Motors. Nice explanation Chuck. The problem is, as you state, the lingering feelings about Bayliner, which may then have an effect on resale. For that reason some folks continue to steer clear of them especially when considering new boats. |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
Shortwave Sportfishing wrote: On 2 Feb 2006 13:15:38 -0800, wrote: They still build a little 16-footer that sells for close to $10k and is built strictly to be an entry level boat. i gotta tell you chuck, that is not a bad little ride for somebody looking just to get out on the local lake or river. its surprizing how well its made. I wouldn't hesitate to take one out in reasonable conditions. Even their bottom of the line boat is now better than the general run of production was during some of the 70's and 80's, but there are some exceptions to the standards applied to the rest of the line that help the boat sell for an impossibly cheap price. Plywood floorboards, for example, and that's only a start. The bigger and or newer the Bayliner, the better the boat. IMO. :-) |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Bryan wrote: Harry, I haven't been around long enough to know the history behind the animosity between you (and others) and Skipper. I do not want to talk about that! What I do want to know is why the personal attack on his boat, a bayliner, over and over. For example, "10-12 acres. Perfect size for Skip and that Bayliner." From the tone of the post I pulled the quote from, and others that I've read, I'm interpreting the bayliner comment as a slur on the boat. I understand that each of us has our boat and they're all different, but each gets us into the water whether it's a small lake with a no wake limit or the limitless ocean. So I'm wondering why the relentless attack on the make or model of a boat. If I've misinterpreted what I've been reading, just let me know, otherwise I'm curious about the motivation for the repetitive attacks, or slurs. Bryan Sea Ray 185 Sport My comments have nothing to do with Bayliners, really, but everything to to with Skipper's years of overblown claims for the "quality" of his particular boat. It is true, however, that the older Bayliners were more than a little deficient in the quality area, but the newer ones are better than the older ones. From what I have seen, the newer Bayliners are just about average now. Thanks for the answer, Harry. |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
wrote in message oups.com... Bryan wrote: Harry, I haven't been around long enough to know the history behind the animosity between you (and others) and Skipper. I do not want to talk about that! What I do want to know is why the personal attack on his boat, a bayliner, over and over. For example, "10-12 acres. Perfect size for Skip and that Bayliner." From the tone of the post I pulled the quote from, and others that I've read, I'm interpreting the bayliner comment as a slur on the boat. I understand that each of us has our boat and they're all different, but each gets us into the water whether it's a small lake with a no wake limit or the limitless ocean. So I'm wondering why the relentless attack on the make or model of a boat. If I've misinterpreted what I've been reading, just let me know, otherwise I'm curious about the motivation for the repetitive attacks, or slurs. Bryan Sea Ray 185 Sport There was a period of time when Bayliner built some marginal boats. Maybe marginal is too optimistic a term. It wasn't any secret to anybody in the industry or even shopping for a boat that Bayliner was, at that time, suitable only for the most protected waterways and inland lakes and sometimes then, just barely. Fit and finish were miserable, design was questionable, fixtures and equipment mostly bottom of the line. These cheaply built boats were sold at cheap prices, and therefore in some large numbers to a group of people who usually didn't know much about a boat when they bought one. The frustrated competitors watched sale after sale after sale go to the "low, low, monthly payment" Bayliner dealer, when, in most cases, the competitors were justified in believing they had a better boat. Unable or unwilling to build down to the same price point, "Bayliner is Crap!" became a sales strategy throughout the industry. The good news is.......that's ancient history. You still run into people who are just beginning to shop for a boat who will say, "I don't know much about boats, but I do know that all Bayliners are crap." If that's what they think they know, then they don't actually know anything about boats at all. Brunswick has replaced a lot of the mini-wage, unskilled, short-employment-trainee level help that used to assemble the boats with state of the art CAD and high tech production techniques. Things that used to fit badly now fit well. A lot of the plywood has been taken out of the boats. While top-of-the-line hardware and fittings are still rare on Bayliners, it's just as hard to find the ulta-cheapo, "breaks off in your hand or under stress" loosely cast zinc and plastic stuff that prevailed once upon a time. In conversation with some of the regional Bayliner execs, they typically address quality and value issues with statements similar to: "We don't claim to make the best boat in the whole world. We want to build a safe, sturdy, well designed boat that the average family might be able to afford. We'll let other builders worry about being more elite than everybody else in sight, our buyers are more interested in having fun on the water than in worrying about how impressed somebody else is going to be with the nameplate on the side of the boat." I personally know a number of people who own Bayliners. Several of them bought their Bayliners after many years of experience boating with other brands of boats. Just after taking delivery of a new 33-footer several years ago, one of my friends remarked "If you had told me this time last year that my next new boat would be a Bayliner, I would have said you were nuts. Because I was skeptical about the brand name, I looked this boat over at least a half dozen times before I decided to buy it. I kept looking for a reason *not* to buy it, and couldn't find one, and in the process I discovered a bunch of things about it that I like very much." IMO, the newer and or the larger the Bayliner- the better the boat. They still build a little 16-footer that sells for close to $10k and is built strictly to be an entry level boat. It's not really indicative of the brand any more than the Geo Metro was ever indicative of General Motors. Great answer, Chuck! Thanks. Just more proof that this ng has a lot to offer when on topic. I really like my little Sea Ray, but I'll definitley avoid steering someone away from a Bayliner based on ancient reputation. |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
Nice explanation Chuck.
The problem is, as you state, the lingering feelings about Bayliner, which may then have an effect on resale. Tom Fournier (Editor, The Marine Blue Book) wrote on 7/9/97: “FACT: Bayliners retain a higher percentage of their purchase price than do most other brands who compete in their size/price range.” -- Skipper |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Skipper wrote: Nice explanation Chuck. The problem is, as you state, the lingering feelings about Bayliner, which may then have an effect on resale. Tom Fournier (Editor, The Marine Blue Book) wrote on 7/9/97: “FACT: Bayliners retain a higher percentage of their purchase price than do most other brands who compete in their size/price range.” -- Skipper I see Snipper is in dredge mode again, or is it still. Poor Fournier...he must rue the day he ever ran into Snipper. 9 year old data. How enlightening. |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
Harry Krause wrote:
Tom Fournier (Editor, The Marine Blue Book) wrote on 7/9/97: “FACT: Bayliners retain a higher percentage of their purchase price than do most other brands who compete in their size/price range.” -- 9 year old data. How enlightening. It wasn't accurate way back then, of course. Accurate facts 'n data have never been your strong suit, Krause. -- Skipper |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Bryan wrote: Harry, I haven't been around long enough to know the history behind the animosity between you (and others) and Skipper. I do not want to talk about that! What I do want to know is why the personal attack on his boat, a bayliner, over and over. For example, "10-12 acres. Perfect size for Skip and that Bayliner." From the tone of the post I pulled the quote from, and others that I've read, I'm interpreting the bayliner comment as a slur on the boat. I understand that each of us has our boat and they're all different, but each gets us into the water whether it's a small lake with a no wake limit or the limitless ocean. So I'm wondering why the relentless attack on the make or model of a boat. If I've misinterpreted what I've been reading, just let me know, otherwise I'm curious about the motivation for the repetitive attacks, or slurs. Bryan Sea Ray 185 Sport My comments have nothing to do with Bayliners, really, but everything to to with Skipper's years of overblown claims for the "quality" of his particular boat. It is true, however, that the older Bayliners were more than a little deficient in the quality area, but the newer ones are better than the older ones. From what I have seen, the newer Bayliners are just about average now. Plain and simple, Harry is an asshole, Chuck Gould is an arrogant SOB. |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
Bert Robbins wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Bryan wrote: Harry, I haven't been around long enough to know the history behind the animosity between you (and others) and Skipper. I do not want to talk about that! What I do want to know is why the personal attack on his boat, a bayliner, over and over. For example, "10-12 acres. Perfect size for Skip and that Bayliner." From the tone of the post I pulled the quote from, and others that I've read, I'm interpreting the bayliner comment as a slur on the boat. I understand that each of us has our boat and they're all different, but each gets us into the water whether it's a small lake with a no wake limit or the limitless ocean. So I'm wondering why the relentless attack on the make or model of a boat. If I've misinterpreted what I've been reading, just let me know, otherwise I'm curious about the motivation for the repetitive attacks, or slurs. Bryan Sea Ray 185 Sport My comments have nothing to do with Bayliners, really, but everything to to with Skipper's years of overblown claims for the "quality" of his particular boat. It is true, however, that the older Bayliners were more than a little deficient in the quality area, but the newer ones are better than the older ones. From what I have seen, the newer Bayliners are just about average now. Plain and simple, Harry is an asshole, Chuck Gould is an arrogant SOB. Netcop netcop! Bert needs an attitude adjustment. |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
Bert Robbins wrote:
My comments have nothing to do with Bayliners, really, but everything to to with Skipper's years of overblown claims for the "quality" of his particular boat. It is true, however, that the older Bayliners were more than a little deficient in the quality area, but the newer ones are better than the older ones. From what I have seen, the newer Bayliners are just about average now. Plain and simple, Harry is an asshole, Chuck Gould is an arrogant SOB. I was at first taken aback by your Chuck comment, but then I remembered he never did apologize for his personal insults and lies that forced a response. I also know you have an outstanding reputation for saying it the way it is in this NG. But let's give Chuck a break and give him a pass. He does contribute interesting articles...unlike Krause. -- Skipper |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
" JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message Nice explanation Chuck. The problem is, as you state, the lingering feelings about Bayliner, which may then have an effect on resale. For that reason some folks continue to steer clear of them especially when considering new boats. Reality vs. perception. Sounds like Bayliner has a problem another company has.....Kaiser Permanente. As a health insurance broker, all I have to do is say the name and I get an immediate reaction....love em or hate em. Negative reputation was earned 15 years ago when they drew the bottom of the barrell, physician-wise. Since then, they've turned it around, drawing excellent physicians/specialists who want to practice medicine, not be businessmen. But their reputation haunts them. A boat salesman made a comment about Bayliner and their workmanship. He said, "If they are of such poor quality, why is there so many older ones around, running just fine." Contrast that to the Vega or Pinto. My two bits. I'd rather put my trust in a company that is trying hard vs. a company that is resting on it's laurels. SeaRay comes to mind, in that respect. -Greg |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Shortwave Sportfishing wrote: On Thu, 2 Feb 2006 21:55:43 -0800, "Dene" wrote: But their reputation haunts them. heh - same with ficht - poor slobs never fully recovered, the whole product line was tainted by the failure of a specific groups of engines and thus the rep. unfortunate when that happens. look how long it took chrysler to recover and they still cant get past the whole dodge transmissions suck thing. Chrysler recovered? Chrysler was bailed out by the people of the US through the government. Chrysler made crappy cars up until a couple of years ago. The German overlords are working hard at pushing quality into the design and manufacture of the Chrysler and Dodge lines. Chrysler's biggest problem was hooking up with Mitsubishi in the '80's. |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
Harry Krause wrote:
Shortwave Sportfishing wrote: On Thu, 2 Feb 2006 21:55:43 -0800, "Dene" wrote: But their reputation haunts them. heh - same with ficht - poor slobs never fully recovered, the whole product line was tainted by the failure of a specific groups of engines and thus the rep. unfortunate when that happens. look how long it took chrysler to recover and they still cant get past the whole dodge transmissions suck thing. Chrysler recovered? Wonder if Dodge transmissions are better now? I've seen some great deals on Caravan mini-vans lately....roughly the same price that I paid for my new 1995 Plymouth Voyager way back. Knock on wood...my three speed auto has been very reliable over 125,000 km. |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
Bert Robbins wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Bryan wrote: Harry, I haven't been around long enough to know the history behind the animosity between you (and others) and Skipper. I do not want to talk about that! What I do want to know is why the personal attack on his boat, a bayliner, over and over. For example, "10-12 acres. Perfect size for Skip and that Bayliner." From the tone of the post I pulled the quote from, and others that I've read, I'm interpreting the bayliner comment as a slur on the boat. I understand that each of us has our boat and they're all different, but each gets us into the water whether it's a small lake with a no wake limit or the limitless ocean. So I'm wondering why the relentless attack on the make or model of a boat. If I've misinterpreted what I've been reading, just let me know, otherwise I'm curious about the motivation for the repetitive attacks, or slurs. Bryan Sea Ray 185 Sport My comments have nothing to do with Bayliners, really, but everything to to with Skipper's years of overblown claims for the "quality" of his particular boat. It is true, however, that the older Bayliners were more than a little deficient in the quality area, but the newer ones are better than the older ones. From what I have seen, the newer Bayliners are just about average now. Plain and simple, Harry is an asshole, Chuck Gould is an arrogant SOB. Your inflammatory comments and use of bad language does nothing for your integrity. May I suggest you take the tone of the rest of the group? |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
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Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
Harry Krause wrote:
Don White wrote: Harry Krause wrote: Shortwave Sportfishing wrote: On Thu, 2 Feb 2006 21:55:43 -0800, "Dene" wrote: But their reputation haunts them. heh - same with ficht - poor slobs never fully recovered, the whole product line was tainted by the failure of a specific groups of engines and thus the rep. unfortunate when that happens. look how long it took chrysler to recover and they still cant get past the whole dodge transmissions suck thing. Chrysler recovered? Wonder if Dodge transmissions are better now? I've seen some great deals on Caravan mini-vans lately....roughly the same price that I paid for my new 1995 Plymouth Voyager way back. Knock on wood...my three speed auto has been very reliable over 125,000 km. My wife really likes the PT Cruiser. The PT Cruiser is a very nice looking car. It seems to be very popular with teens and woman, sort of like the new VW Bug. When was the last time you saw a man driving one of the New VW Bugs? -- Reggie ************************************************** ************* That's my story and I am sticking to it. ************************************************** ************* |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
"Reggie Smithers" wrote in message . .. Harry Krause wrote: Don White wrote: Harry Krause wrote: Shortwave Sportfishing wrote: On Thu, 2 Feb 2006 21:55:43 -0800, "Dene" wrote: But their reputation haunts them. heh - same with ficht - poor slobs never fully recovered, the whole product line was tainted by the failure of a specific groups of engines and thus the rep. unfortunate when that happens. look how long it took chrysler to recover and they still cant get past the whole dodge transmissions suck thing. Chrysler recovered? Wonder if Dodge transmissions are better now? I've seen some great deals on Caravan mini-vans lately....roughly the same price that I paid for my new 1995 Plymouth Voyager way back. Knock on wood...my three speed auto has been very reliable over 125,000 km. My wife really likes the PT Cruiser. The PT Cruiser is a very nice looking car. It seems to be very popular with teens and woman, sort of like the new VW Bug. When was the last time you saw a man driving one of the New VW Bugs? Unless he is less than 5'4" how would you fit in one ;-) -- Reggie ************************************************** ************* That's my story and I am sticking to it. ************************************************** ************* |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
wrote in message oups.com... Bert Robbins wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Bryan wrote: Harry, I haven't been around long enough to know the history behind the animosity between you (and others) and Skipper. I do not want to talk about that! What I do want to know is why the personal attack on his boat, a bayliner, over and over. For example, "10-12 acres. Perfect size for Skip and that Bayliner." From the tone of the post I pulled the quote from, and others that I've read, I'm interpreting the bayliner comment as a slur on the boat. I understand that each of us has our boat and they're all different, but each gets us into the water whether it's a small lake with a no wake limit or the limitless ocean. So I'm wondering why the relentless attack on the make or model of a boat. If I've misinterpreted what I've been reading, just let me know, otherwise I'm curious about the motivation for the repetitive attacks, or slurs. Bryan Sea Ray 185 Sport My comments have nothing to do with Bayliners, really, but everything to to with Skipper's years of overblown claims for the "quality" of his particular boat. It is true, however, that the older Bayliners were more than a little deficient in the quality area, but the newer ones are better than the older ones. From what I have seen, the newer Bayliners are just about average now. Plain and simple, Harry is an asshole, Chuck Gould is an arrogant SOB. Your inflammatory comments and use of bad language does nothing for your integrity. May I suggest you take the tone of the rest of the group? I agree. Come on Bert, drop it already. |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
P. Fritz wrote:
"Reggie Smithers" wrote in message . .. Harry Krause wrote: Don White wrote: Harry Krause wrote: Shortwave Sportfishing wrote: On Thu, 2 Feb 2006 21:55:43 -0800, "Dene" wrote: But their reputation haunts them. heh - same with ficht - poor slobs never fully recovered, the whole product line was tainted by the failure of a specific groups of engines and thus the rep. unfortunate when that happens. look how long it took chrysler to recover and they still cant get past the whole dodge transmissions suck thing. Chrysler recovered? Wonder if Dodge transmissions are better now? I've seen some great deals on Caravan mini-vans lately....roughly the same price that I paid for my new 1995 Plymouth Voyager way back. Knock on wood...my three speed auto has been very reliable over 125,000 km. My wife really likes the PT Cruiser. The PT Cruiser is a very nice looking car. It seems to be very popular with teens and woman, sort of like the new VW Bug. When was the last time you saw a man driving one of the New VW Bugs? Unless he is less than 5'4" how would you fit in one ;-) -- Reggie ************************************************** ************* That's my story and I am sticking to it. ************************************************** ************* That would be my concern with the PT Cruiser, they do seem very tiny. The VW Bug seems to have more room, it is just way to "cute" for my taste. -- Reggie ************************************************** ************* That's my story and I am sticking to it. ************************************************** ************* |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... I like full-size GM and Ford pick-me-ups, I like the new 'vettes, I like the Caddy STS, and I think I like the looks of the new Chrysler 300 sedan. That's about it for US vehicles. Check out the Chrysler 300 with the new, bored 6.something liter hemi. 425 hp. RCE |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
"RCE" wrote in message ... "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... I like full-size GM and Ford pick-me-ups, I like the new 'vettes, I like the Caddy STS, and I think I like the looks of the new Chrysler 300 sedan. That's about it for US vehicles. Check out the Chrysler 300 with the new, bored 6.something liter hemi. 425 hp. It's certainly a nice car, and more reasonably priced than the Cadillac STS-V. But if money were no object, and I were buying an American car: http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/cars/cadillac_sts-v.asp |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
Harry Krause wrote:
Don White wrote: Harry Krause wrote: Shortwave Sportfishing wrote: On Thu, 2 Feb 2006 21:55:43 -0800, "Dene" wrote: But their reputation haunts them. heh - same with ficht - poor slobs never fully recovered, the whole product line was tainted by the failure of a specific groups of engines and thus the rep. unfortunate when that happens. look how long it took chrysler to recover and they still cant get past the whole dodge transmissions suck thing. Chrysler recovered? Wonder if Dodge transmissions are better now? I've seen some great deals on Caravan mini-vans lately....roughly the same price that I paid for my new 1995 Plymouth Voyager way back. Knock on wood...my three speed auto has been very reliable over 125,000 km. My wife really likes the PT Cruiser. Too small and only has a 4 cylinder for me. I need a six cylinder to tow my sailboat safely. |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
"NOYB" wrote in message nk.net... "RCE" wrote in message ... "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... I like full-size GM and Ford pick-me-ups, I like the new 'vettes, I like the Caddy STS, and I think I like the looks of the new Chrysler 300 sedan. That's about it for US vehicles. Check out the Chrysler 300 with the new, bored 6.something liter hemi. 425 hp. It's certainly a nice car, and more reasonably priced than the Cadillac STS-V. But if money were no object, and I were buying an American car: http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/cars/cadillac_sts-v.asp Big time problems being reported by disappointed buyers of this car. Investigate before you buy. RCE |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
Harry Krause wrote:
Reggie Smithers wrote: Harry Krause wrote: Don White wrote: Harry Krause wrote: Shortwave Sportfishing wrote: On Thu, 2 Feb 2006 21:55:43 -0800, "Dene" wrote: But their reputation haunts them. heh - same with ficht - poor slobs never fully recovered, the whole product line was tainted by the failure of a specific groups of engines and thus the rep. unfortunate when that happens. look how long it took chrysler to recover and they still cant get past the whole dodge transmissions suck thing. Chrysler recovered? Wonder if Dodge transmissions are better now? I've seen some great deals on Caravan mini-vans lately....roughly the same price that I paid for my new 1995 Plymouth Voyager way back. Knock on wood...my three speed auto has been very reliable over 125,000 km. My wife really likes the PT Cruiser. The PT Cruiser is a very nice looking car. It seems to be very popular with teens and woman, sort of like the new VW Bug. When was the last time you saw a man driving one of the New VW Bugs? Yeah, my wife also likes the new VW bugs. Must be part of female genetic coding. My only problem with the PT Cruiser is that it is a Chrysler product and therefore, in my mind, trash. I like full-size GM and Ford pick-me-ups, I like the new 'vettes, I like the Caddy STS, and I think I like the looks of the new Chrysler 300 sedan. That's about it for US vehicles. If I pick out a new vehicle in the near future, I'm starting to favour the new upsized 2006 Toyota Rav 4 with the 6 cylinder engine. Supposed to tow 3500 lbs...so lots of excess capacity for my 1800-2000 lb package. Locally, costs $ 31k CDN for base model with auto & 6 cyl. http://www.toyota.com/rav4/?s_van=GM_HOME_FLASH_RAV4 |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
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Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
"Dene" wrote in message . .. " JimH" jimh_osudad@yahooDOT comREMOVETHIS wrote in message Nice explanation Chuck. The problem is, as you state, the lingering feelings about Bayliner, which may then have an effect on resale. For that reason some folks continue to steer clear of them especially when considering new boats. Reality vs. perception. Sounds like Bayliner has a problem another company has.....Kaiser Permanente. As a health insurance broker, all I have to do is say the name and I get an immediate reaction....love em or hate em. Negative reputation was earned 15 years ago when they drew the bottom of the barrell, physician-wise. Since then, they've turned it around, drawing excellent physicians/specialists who want to practice medicine, not be businessmen. But their reputation haunts them. A boat salesman made a comment about Bayliner and their workmanship. He said, "If they are of such poor quality, why is there so many older ones around, running just fine." Contrast that to the Vega or Pinto. My two bits. I'd rather put my trust in a company that is trying hard vs. a company that is resting on it's laurels. SeaRay comes to mind, in that respect. Ouch! Bryan Sea Ray 185 Sport |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
Bert Robbins wrote: Plain and simple, Harry is an asshole, Chuck Gould is an arrogant SOB. Thank you very much, Bert. That's the nicest thing you have ever said about me. It's flattering to know that while I never mention you in the NG, I must be constantly on your mind as you often present your personal evaluations of my behavior or character without any provocation whatsoever. You might try obsessing about someone or something else......trust me, I'm not worth the time you rather obviously put into it. If we were still discussing politics here, I'd ask if you ever met a liberal that you *did* like, but we aren't, so I won't. :-) You're entitled to your opinion. Carry on. |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
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Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
Reggie,
Sorry, but you are way off base when you say that the PT Cruiser seems tiny compared to the Beetle. While The PT Cruiser is shorter than a Nissan Sentra, it has interior passenger space comparable to a Lincoln Town Car: http://www.automotive.com/reviews/12...iser/interior/ Road & Track did an article comparing the PT Cruiser, Mini Cooper, and Beetle he http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....article_id=418 There is a nice chart with diagrams and data he http://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews/...retro_data.pdf Incidentally, the front seat leg room for the PTC is shown as 43.0", but that is deceptive because the seat in the PTC is high, the actual leg comfort level is much better than the number suggests. My Saturn SW2 had 42.5", but the PTC has a lot more leg room than the Saturn did. Likewise, the back seat comfort is much better in the PTC, 4" more than the Beetle. Plus, the back seats are actually higher than the front seats. And of course there is no comparing the trunk/cargo space, the PTC has about 3X as much maximum cargo space. |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
The beauty of the PT Cruiser is that in many people's minds they are
"trash". But their reliability ratings are on par with the Japanese. This means it's resale value drops disproportionate to it's value. You can get a real bargain with used PT Cruisers which are still excellent cars, but have a low price tag. |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
RCE wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... wrote: Bert Robbins wrote: Plain and simple, Harry is an asshole, Chuck Gould is an arrogant SOB. Thank you very much, Bert. That's the nicest thing you have ever said about me. It's flattering to know that while I never mention you in the NG, I must be constantly on your mind as you often present your personal evaluations of my behavior or character without any provocation whatsoever. You might try obsessing about someone or something else......trust me, I'm not worth the time you rather obviously put into it. If we were still discussing politics here, I'd ask if you ever met a liberal that you *did* like, but we aren't, so I won't. :-) You're entitled to your opinion. Carry on. But the question remains...which ranks higher in Bert's opinion..."an asshole," or, "an arrogant SOB"? Well, you kinda need the former .... RCE Pardon me, but I feel compelled to speak up on behalf of my fellow "Arrogant SOB's" just about here. Even the lowliest form of life with a digestive system has an asshole. It takes a bit of misguided intellect and screwed over attitude to rise to the stature of "Arrogant, SOB." :-) |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
wrote:
Reggie, Sorry, but you are way off base when you say that the PT Cruiser seems tiny compared to the Beetle. While The PT Cruiser is shorter than a Nissan Sentra, it has interior passenger space comparable to a Lincoln Town Car: http://www.automotive.com/reviews/12...iser/interior/ Road & Track did an article comparing the PT Cruiser, Mini Cooper, and Beetle he http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....article_id=418 There is a nice chart with diagrams and data he http://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews/...retro_data.pdf Incidentally, the front seat leg room for the PTC is shown as 43.0", but that is deceptive because the seat in the PTC is high, the actual leg comfort level is much better than the number suggests. My Saturn SW2 had 42.5", but the PTC has a lot more leg room than the Saturn did. Likewise, the back seat comfort is much better in the PTC, 4" more than the Beetle. Plus, the back seats are actually higher than the front seats. And of course there is no comparing the trunk/cargo space, the PTC has about 3X as much maximum cargo space. Robin, That is not the first time I was way off base. Thanks for highlighting my latest screw up. -- Reggie ************************************************** ************* That's my story and I am sticking to it. ************************************************** ************* |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
"RCE" wrote in message ... "NOYB" wrote in message nk.net... "RCE" wrote in message ... "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... I like full-size GM and Ford pick-me-ups, I like the new 'vettes, I like the Caddy STS, and I think I like the looks of the new Chrysler 300 sedan. That's about it for US vehicles. Check out the Chrysler 300 with the new, bored 6.something liter hemi. 425 hp. It's certainly a nice car, and more reasonably priced than the Cadillac STS-V. But if money were no object, and I were buying an American car: http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/cars/cadillac_sts-v.asp Big time problems being reported by disappointed buyers of this car. Investigate before you buy. Where have you read those reports? |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
wrote in message oups.com... RCE wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... wrote: Bert Robbins wrote: Plain and simple, Harry is an asshole, Chuck Gould is an arrogant SOB. Thank you very much, Bert. That's the nicest thing you have ever said about me. It's flattering to know that while I never mention you in the NG, I must be constantly on your mind as you often present your personal evaluations of my behavior or character without any provocation whatsoever. You might try obsessing about someone or something else......trust me, I'm not worth the time you rather obviously put into it. If we were still discussing politics here, I'd ask if you ever met a liberal that you *did* like, but we aren't, so I won't. :-) You're entitled to your opinion. Carry on. But the question remains...which ranks higher in Bert's opinion..."an asshole," or, "an arrogant SOB"? Well, you kinda need the former .... RCE Pardon me, but I feel compelled to speak up on behalf of my fellow "Arrogant SOB's" just about here. Even the lowliest form of life with a digestive system has an asshole. It takes a bit of misguided intellect and screwed over attitude to rise to the stature of "Arrogant, SOB." :-) Plus, you can always claim to be backed up by the former as well ... RCE |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
wrote in message ps.com... Reggie, we might need to consider being patient with some of the formerly active posters here. With most of the threads now concentrating on boats and boating related matters and almost no politics at all....(hoooo......raaaay!!).........there are certainly various individuals who have never demonstrated an interest in or capacity to discuss boats; some who might be feeling a bit "left out" if they can't fire up a good old fashioned rec.boats flame war or steer discussion to Bush, Iraq, Liberals, Conservatives, or other controversial topics. Chuck, are you trying to steer the discussion to Bush, Iraq, Liberals, Conservatives, or other controversial topics? ; ) |
Ping: Harry K. et al attacking the bayliner
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 15:22:57 -0600, Skipper wrote:
wrote: You still run into people who are just beginning to shop for a boat who will say, "I don't know much about boats, but I do know that all Bayliners are crap." If that's what they think they know, then they don't actually know anything about boats at all. That pretty much describes Harry...and a few folks who like to think they actually know boats. a troll -- 'Til next time, John H ****************************************** ***** Have a Spectacular Day! ***** ****************************************** |
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