The *Challenge*: Perhaps it is time to revisit this issue since the
original *Challenge* a month or so ago.

I am not disputing the validity of that original challenge but I do have
some comments and suggestions.

Since that *Challenge* this NG is dripping wet with tensions because of the
various mandates placed on it and the participation has actually *decreased*
as a result of it.

I am not suggesting that the *Challenge* was wrong but that we need to
perhaps revisit the restrictions it called for as it is obvious it has not
worked, including the netcopping of those mandates. I suggest that this
new and improved atmosphere has made the NG stale and perhaps even more
confrontational.

Suggestions:

1. Stop all netcopping Ignore those who don't abide by the *rules* here
(most important!)
2. Allow any sort of topic to be posted but make sure it is marked as OT
Then refer back to #1.
3. Stop the personal attacks and insults.
4. Stop the flaming.
5. Stop the trolling for heated arguments.
6. Ignore those who do not abide by these rules.

Do those things and we are fine. Keep on as we are and we are nothing
better than what we were.

:-)

JimH wrote:
The *Challenge*: Perhaps it is time to revisit this issue since the
original *Challenge* a month or so ago.

I am not disputing the validity of that original challenge but I do have
some comments and suggestions.

Since that *Challenge* this NG is dripping wet with tensions because of the
various mandates placed on it and the participation has actually *decreased*
as a result of it.


Yes, "participation" is down and thank heavens for small favors. There
are entire threads missing. In fact, there are entire categories of
threads missing. Gone are the conservative cut 'n pastes, the liberal
cut 'n pastes, the duelling presidential popularity polls, the f'd up
debates about the "heroic liberation" or "political colonization" of
Iraq (take your pick). Gone are the "Harry Krause is a ________"
threads. Gone are the "Liberals are destroying the Christian religion"
threads. Missing from most posts of all types are the vicious name
calling and the endless Jr. High School "neener/neener's". Certain
posters, with little or nothing to contribute to discussions about
boating, are indeed missing in action. Too darn bad- they can take the
naming and flaming somewhere else as it should be a reasonable
expectation (when one visits a NG titled "rec.boats") that most of the
discussion should center around boating.

But check this out, please, Jim. Discussion of boating topics is way
*up* from what it has been.




I am not suggesting that the *Challenge* was wrong but that we need to
perhaps revisit the restrictions it called for as it is obvious it has not
worked, including the netcopping of those mandates. I suggest that this
new and improved atmosphere has made the NG stale and perhaps even more
confrontational.


If the atmosphere is "improved", how can it simultaneously be stale?
The challenge didn't impose any restrictions, it was a call to the
worst offenders
(that would include you and me) to modify our behavior and see if the
tone of the group changed as a result. It did. I'm sorry to hear that
you prefer the previous atmosphere that prevailed here- but that's your
call to make and you are free to conduct yourself here as you see fit.



Suggestions:

1. Stop all netcopping Ignore those who don't abide by the *rules* here
(most important!)


Is this a continuation of last week's argument that "Everything is
appropriate in rec.boats, except any comments by anybody questioning
whether something is appropriately boating related or not. Any comment
suggesting that some posts are inappropriate for rec.boats
is.............. inappropriate for rec.boats" ?


There are no "rules" here. Never have been. There are common courtesies
that most people will follow in order to promote the smoothest
conversational interaction- and then there will always be a group of
people who feel that their personal compulsion to express themselves
however they see fit trumps any general desire among the group for
civil discourse and rational polite discussion. If some people are
feeling "tense" or unduly restricted by the general group attitude
toward anti-social behavior, there is nothing and nobody who can or
will stop them from dumping load after load of crap into the NG as far
too many of us have done in the past.


2. Allow any sort of topic to be posted but make sure it is marked as OT
Then refer back to #1.

Who or what, other than peer pressure, prevents anybody from posting
whatever they want here- marked OT or not?


3. Stop the personal attacks and insults.
4. Stop the flaming.
5. Stop the trolling for heated arguments


Here's where things get a bit blurry on my radar screen, so help me out
please.
If people should be "allowed" (and they are) to post "anything they
want" (and they can)
what happens when Poster X decides that what he really wants to post is
a long personal attack on Poster Y?

Question: Would you then suggest that Poster X do items 1,2,and 3
above? Would that be "netcopping"? Why can't Poster X post "anything
he wants" without somebody else saying anything?


6. Ignore those who do not abide by these rules.

Do those things and we are fine. Keep on as we are and we are nothing
better than what we were.


You think? You don't see a difference in the type of posts, the tone of
the posts, an increase in the number of boating related posts? The
group is no better than it was in November? Interesting analysis.



:-)

wrote:

JimH wrote:

Since that *Challenge* this NG is dripping wet with tensions because of the
various mandates placed on it and the participation has actually *decreased*
as a result of it.

Yes, "participation" is down and thank heavens for small favors. There
are entire threads missing. In fact, there are entire categories of
threads missing. Certain posters, with little or nothing to contribute
to discussions about boating, are indeed missing in action. Too darn
bad- they can take the naming and flaming somewhere else as it should be
a reasonable expectation (when one visits a NG titled "rec.boats")
that most of the discussion should center around boating.

But check this out, please, Jim. Discussion of boating topics is way
*up* from what it has been.

The challenge didn't impose any restrictions, it was a call to the
worst offenders
(that would include you and me) to modify our behavior and see if the
tone of the group changed as a result. It did. I'm sorry to hear that
you prefer the previous atmosphere that prevailed here- but that's your
call to make and you are free to conduct yourself here as you see fit.

There are no "rules" here. Never have been. There are common courtesies
that most people will follow in order to promote the smoothest
conversational interaction- and then there will always be a group of
people who feel that their personal compulsion to express themselves
however they see fit trumps any general desire among the group for
civil discourse and rational polite discussion. If some people are
feeling "tense" or unduly restricted by the general group attitude
toward anti-social behavior, there is nothing and nobody who can or
will stop them from dumping load after load of crap into the NG as far
too many of us have done in the past.

You think? You don't see a difference in the type of posts, the tone of
the posts, an increase in the number of boating related posts? The
group is no better than it was in November? Interesting analysis.

Do you believe your admonition will moderate his behavior, Chuck? Does
he *ever* post about boats or boating? Do you really think he has the
capacity to ever 'get it'? The sad reality is that some are not here for
on-topic discussions. The cruising NG has found the right answer for
these mindless trolls...and that should be the goal for this forum.
Simple solutions are best, IMO.

--
Skipper

Skipper wrote:


Do you believe your admonition will moderate his behavior, Chuck? Does
he *ever* post about boats or boating? Do you really think he has the
capacity to ever 'get it'? The sad reality is that some are not here for
on-topic discussions. The cruising NG has found the right answer for
these mindless trolls...and that should be the goal for this forum.
Simple solutions are best, IMO.

--
Skipper

I'm pretty distressed to hear that my philosophical disagreement with
JimH about the best course for rec.boats to take reads as an
"admonition". It wasn't intended to be. Jim has every right to express
his opinion. I have every right to disagree. As he points out, as long
as we avoid personal insults and name calling, that's not such a bad
thing. The problem is that history proves again and again that the mix
of personalities in rec.boats (and in most NG's if you look around)
*cannot* discuss a wide range of subjects without devolving to some
pretty nasty behaviors. Perhaps its a sign of the times, and there are
a lot of muddy skirts around in this regard.....certainly including my
own.

Are we a chatroom, or a newsgroup?

As I have said all along, if we want a chatroom we've had a dandy and
there is no need for anybody to change anything from the late November,
early December model where the majority of threads were OT, and even
the on topic threads quickly devolved into flame fests. If we want to
be a useful newsgroup, we may have to settle for fewer total posts per
day in order to attract a greater number of particpants and posts. As
we were, we were seeing example after example of new people coming to
the group, making a post or two, and then (presumably) running for the
exit holding their cyber noses. Who can blame them?

Why are OT threads a problem, even when the original poster avoids
calling names, etc?
In my opinion and observation, it's because 99% of the bitchy behavior
in this group occurs in OT threads. People then carry those personal
disputes into the on-topic threads and we suddenly have the Hatfields
and the McCoys all over hell. It's because I know darn well, (or
should), that even posting "George Bush did this yesterday" in as
objective a manner as I could manage, to *this* group, is going to
rally a half dozen people to declare that Bush is an idiot who stole
two elections and another half dozed to proclaim that he will be
remembered as the greatest president since Lincoln, at least, and given
the remainder of his second term he could easily eclipse ol' Abe. Who
needs that?

Don't they say that futility is the practice of continuing to do the
same old thing while expecting different results?

wrote:

Skipper wrote:

Do you believe your admonition will moderate his behavior, Chuck? Does
he *ever* post about boats or boating? Do you really think he has the
capacity to ever 'get it'? The sad reality is that some are not here for
on-topic discussions. The cruising NG has found the right answer for
these mindless trolls...and that should be the goal for this forum.
Simple solutions are best, IMO.

I'm pretty distressed to hear that my philosophical disagreement with
JimH about the best course for rec.boats to take reads as an
"admonition". It wasn't intended to be.

ad·mo·ni·tion
n.
1- Mild, kind, yet earnest reproof.
2- Cautionary advice or warning.

Middle English amonicioun, from Old French amonition, from Latin
admonitio, admonition-, from admonitus, past participle of admonere, to
admonish.

Sorry to see you take this mendacious tack again, Chuck. Your post was
clearly a veiled admonition to JimH. Old habits, huh?

Jim has every right to express his opinion. I have every right to disagree.

JimH presents as obtuse. Suppose that's not a crime, but his 30 or so
daily mindless musings only clutter and degrade the NG, IMO.

As he points out, as long as we avoid personal insults and name calling,
that's not such a bad thing.

You contend he avoids the personal insults? Take a closer look...or
check out a.politics.

The problem is that history proves again and again that the mix
of personalities in rec.boats (and in most NG's if you look around)
*cannot* discuss a wide range of subjects without devolving to some
pretty nasty behaviors. Perhaps its a sign of the times, and there are
a lot of muddy skirts around in this regard.....certainly including my
own.

I believe it's a sign that some just don't have the ability or bent to
discuss boats and boating to the degree of their 'contributions' here.
They simply go that route to mask their boating ignorance.

If we want to be a useful newsgroup, we may have to settle for fewer
total posts per day in order to attract a greater number of particpants
and posts. As we were, we were seeing example after example of new people
coming to the group, making a post or two, and then (presumably) running
for the exit holding their cyber noses. Who can blame them?

And as I stated above, we must follow the example set in the cruising NG
if we're going to be successful in having a useful forum.

Don't they say that futility is the practice of continuing to do the
same old thing while expecting different results?

Yes, they do.

--
Skipper

Skipper wrote:
wrote:

Skipper wrote:

Do you believe your admonition will moderate his behavior, Chuck? Does
he *ever* post about boats or boating? Do you really think he has the
capacity to ever 'get it'? The sad reality is that some are not here for
on-topic discussions. The cruising NG has found the right answer for
these mindless trolls...and that should be the goal for this forum.
Simple solutions are best, IMO.

I'm pretty distressed to hear that my philosophical disagreement with
JimH about the best course for rec.boats to take reads as an
"admonition". It wasn't intended to be.

ad·mo·ni·tion
n.
1- Mild, kind, yet earnest reproof.
2- Cautionary advice or warning.

Middle English amonicioun, from Old French amonition, from Latin
admonitio, admonition-, from admonitus, past participle of admonere, to
admonish.

Sorry to see you take this mendacious tack again, Chuck. Your post was
clearly a veiled admonition to JimH. Old habits, huh?

Jim has every right to express his opinion. I have every right to disagree.

JimH presents as obtuse. Suppose that's not a crime, but his 30 or so
daily mindless musings only clutter and degrade the NG, IMO.

As he points out, as long as we avoid personal insults and name calling,
that's not such a bad thing.

You contend he avoids the personal insults? Take a closer look...or
check out a.politics.

My reference was to this specific post, where he did indeed avoid any
name calling or personal insults. If somebody is behaving differently
in a different group, that's not actually an issue in rec.boats. I've
never visited a.politics, but it sounds like a great sounding board for
the type of posts and posting styles that until very recently prevailed
in this group.






The problem is that history proves again and again that the mix
of personalities in rec.boats (and in most NG's if you look around)
*cannot* discuss a wide range of subjects without devolving to some
pretty nasty behaviors. Perhaps its a sign of the times, and there are
a lot of muddy skirts around in this regard.....certainly including my
own.

I believe it's a sign that some just don't have the ability or bent to
discuss boats and boating to the degree of their 'contributions' here.
They simply go that route to mask their boating ignorance.


Well, there's ignorance and then there's differences of opinion. One
thing that it has taken me a lifetime to learn, and most days I am
probably still working on it some, is that the people who don't agree
with me on a lot of things aren't underinformed, misinformed, or stupid
(most of the time)... they have simply looked at questions where there
might be more than one workable answer and maybe no absolutes and for
whatever reasons decided that some answer other than the one I might
prefer is the most appealing.





If we want to be a useful newsgroup, we may have to settle for fewer
total posts per day in order to attract a greater number of particpants
and posts. As we were, we were seeing example after example of new people
coming to the group, making a post or two, and then (presumably) running
for the exit holding their cyber noses. Who can blame them?

And as I stated above, we must follow the example set in the cruising NG
if we're going to be successful in having a useful forum.

Don't they say that futility is the practice of continuing to do the
same old thing while expecting different results?

Yes, they do.

--
Skipper

wrote:
Skipper wrote:

Do you believe your admonition will moderate his behavior, Chuck? Does
he *ever* post about boats or boating? Do you really think he has the
capacity to ever 'get it'? The sad reality is that some are not here for
on-topic discussions. The cruising NG has found the right answer for
these mindless trolls...and that should be the goal for this forum.
Simple solutions are best, IMO.

--
Skipper

I'm pretty distressed to hear that my philosophical disagreement with
JimH about the best course for rec.boats to take reads as an
"admonition". It wasn't intended to be. Jim has every right to express
his opinion. I have every right to disagree. As he points out, as long
as we avoid personal insults and name calling, that's not such a bad
thing. The problem is that history proves again and again that the mix
of personalities in rec.boats (and in most NG's if you look around)
*cannot* discuss a wide range of subjects without devolving to some
pretty nasty behaviors. Perhaps its a sign of the times, and there are
a lot of muddy skirts around in this regard.....certainly including my
own.

Are we a chatroom, or a newsgroup?

As I have said all along, if we want a chatroom we've had a dandy and
there is no need for anybody to change anything from the late November,
early December model where the majority of threads were OT, and even
the on topic threads quickly devolved into flame fests. If we want to
be a useful newsgroup, we may have to settle for fewer total posts per
day in order to attract a greater number of particpants and posts. As
we were, we were seeing example after example of new people coming to
the group, making a post or two, and then (presumably) running for the
exit holding their cyber noses. Who can blame them?

Why are OT threads a problem, even when the original poster avoids
calling names, etc?
In my opinion and observation, it's because 99% of the bitchy behavior
in this group occurs in OT threads. People then carry those personal
disputes into the on-topic threads and we suddenly have the Hatfields
and the McCoys all over hell. It's because I know darn well, (or
should), that even posting "George Bush did this yesterday" in as
objective a manner as I could manage, to *this* group, is going to
rally a half dozen people to declare that Bush is an idiot who stole
two elections and another half dozed to proclaim that he will be
remembered as the greatest president since Lincoln, at least, and given
the remainder of his second term he could easily eclipse ol' Abe. Who
needs that?

Don't they say that futility is the practice of continuing to do the
same old thing while expecting different results?

Chuck,
In the few political posts that have been made in the past month, they
have quickly degraded into flamefests. 99% of the regulars have
confirmed your position that we should avoid politics or religion and
ignore any flames.

--
Reggie
************************************************** *************

Q. What's the difference between a brown-noser and a ****-head?
A. Depth perception.
************************************************** *************

wrote in message
ups.com...

Skipper wrote:


Do you believe your admonition will moderate his behavior, Chuck? Does
he *ever* post about boats or boating? Do you really think he has the
capacity to ever 'get it'? The sad reality is that some are not here for
on-topic discussions. The cruising NG has found the right answer for
these mindless trolls...and that should be the goal for this forum.
Simple solutions are best, IMO.

--
Skipper

I'm pretty distressed to hear that my philosophical disagreement with
JimH about the best course for rec.boats to take reads as an
"admonition". It wasn't intended to be.


I did not take it that way either Chuck.

Old Man Skippy has to find some reason to complain. That is what he is
best at.

wrote:
JimH wrote:

The *Challenge*: Perhaps it is time to revisit this issue since the
original *Challenge* a month or so ago.

I am not disputing the validity of that original challenge but I do have
some comments and suggestions.

Since that *Challenge* this NG is dripping wet with tensions because of the
various mandates placed on it and the participation has actually *decreased*
as a result of it.



Yes, "participation" is down and thank heavens for small favors. There
are entire threads missing. In fact, there are entire categories of
threads missing. Gone are the conservative cut 'n pastes, the liberal
cut 'n pastes, the duelling presidential popularity polls, the f'd up
debates about the "heroic liberation" or "political colonization" of
Iraq (take your pick). Gone are the "Harry Krause is a ________"
threads. Gone are the "Liberals are destroying the Christian religion"
threads. Missing from most posts of all types are the vicious name
calling and the endless Jr. High School "neener/neener's". Certain
posters, with little or nothing to contribute to discussions about
boating, are indeed missing in action. Too darn bad- they can take the
naming and flaming somewhere else as it should be a reasonable
expectation (when one visits a NG titled "rec.boats") that most of the
discussion should center around boating.

But check this out, please, Jim. Discussion of boating topics is way
*up* from what it has been.


Yep - The atmosphere is getting to be like..... aahhhhh... Well..... A
Boating news group!!! :-)

Where people can be grown up and use it as it was intended to be. I am
glad to see the pollution go down in this group.

If someone wants to go to all the back biting political bs why no go to
where there are other like minded folks and have at it. I am sure it
would not be hard to find.

Cheers

Capt Jack R..

Jack Redington wrote:

Yep - The atmosphere is getting to be like..... aahhhhh... Well..... A
Boating news group!!! :-)

Where people can be grown up and use it as it was intended to be. I am
glad to see the pollution go down in this group.

Truer words were never spoken...and from a long time and valued
contributor. Let's work to keep it going in that direction.

--
Skipper