markvictor wrote:
EFI? brand new alpha? are you in base timing mode?


Who are you responding to? What are you responding to? Who said EFI?

You're confusing yourself immensley.

Take for example a brand new Alpha 135. Disconnect the interrupter.
Guess what? It wont come out of gear, even at idle(in water, under
way), unless you use the cable and pull the shift lever past neutral
into reverse... then guess what? you're in reverse! From neutral, it'll
go INTO gear all day long no matter how fast you shift & throttle(&
actually, the faster you shift the better for the dog & gears in the
foot - none of that chunka-chunka-chunka-chunka-clunk stuff...).

Makes docking tough.

Now connect the interrupter on our EXAMPLE brand new Alpha 135. Shifts
like a dream(at least as good as a dog clutch leg can)!

You obviously do not understand the need for an interrupter on the Alpha
leg. (135hp is a carb engine)

It's for getting out of gear, in water. Engine running. Period.

Not running, or on the flush muffs, you don't need the interrupter, in
fact it shouldn't even activate... it's action is based on the force
needed to overcome the resistance of a drive working against the water,
the ratcheted clutch dog teeth embedded into the drive gear, which is
the exact problem the OP has.

Now he's telling us the idle is twice as high as it should be, which
compounds the problem - even more force demanded of that lower shift
cable. Without the interrupter, he's headed for a docking, trailering,
or maneuvering disaster.

Rob

trainfan1 wrote:
markvictor wrote:
EFI? brand new alpha? are you in base timing mode?


Who are you responding to? What are you responding to? Who said EFI?

You're confusing yourself immensley.

Take for example a brand new Alpha 135. Disconnect the interrupter.
Guess what? It wont come out of gear, even at idle(in water, under
way), unless you use the cable and pull the shift lever past neutral
into reverse... then guess what? you're in reverse! From neutral, it'll
go INTO gear all day long no matter how fast you shift & throttle(&
actually, the faster you shift the better for the dog & gears in the
foot - none of that chunka-chunka-chunka-chunka-clunk stuff...).

Makes docking tough.

Now connect the interrupter on our EXAMPLE brand new Alpha 135. Shifts
like a dream(at least as good as a dog clutch leg can)!

You obviously do not understand the need for an interrupter on the Alpha
leg. (135hp is a carb engine)

It's for getting out of gear, in water. Engine running. Period.

Not running, or on the flush muffs, you don't need the interrupter, in
fact it shouldn't even activate... it's action is based on the force
needed to overcome the resistance of a drive working against the water,
the ratcheted clutch dog teeth embedded into the drive gear, which is
the exact problem the OP has.

Now he's telling us the idle is twice as high as it should be, which
compounds the problem - even more force demanded of that lower shift
cable. Without the interrupter, he's headed for a docking, trailering,
or maneuvering disaster.

Rob

So like I said, he needs to set the idle correctly and adjust his cable
correctly and that will most likely permit his drive to shift correctly
The only thing confusing me is the the notion that a fixed ratio drive
with a positive engagement clutch can have a change in engine speed
relative to shaft speed while the clutch is engaged...
Immensely only has 2 "e"s

markvictor wrote:

trainfan1 wrote:

markvictor wrote:

EFI? brand new alpha? are you in base timing mode?


Who are you responding to? What are you responding to? Who said EFI?

You're confusing yourself immensley.

Take for example a brand new Alpha 135. Disconnect the interrupter.
Guess what? It wont come out of gear, even at idle(in water, under
way), unless you use the cable and pull the shift lever past neutral
into reverse... then guess what? you're in reverse! From neutral, it'll
go INTO gear all day long no matter how fast you shift & throttle(&
actually, the faster you shift the better for the dog & gears in the
foot - none of that chunka-chunka-chunka-chunka-clunk stuff...).

Makes docking tough.

Now connect the interrupter on our EXAMPLE brand new Alpha 135. Shifts
like a dream(at least as good as a dog clutch leg can)!

You obviously do not understand the need for an interrupter on the Alpha
leg. (135hp is a carb engine)

It's for getting out of gear, in water. Engine running. Period.

Not running, or on the flush muffs, you don't need the interrupter, in
fact it shouldn't even activate... it's action is based on the force
needed to overcome the resistance of a drive working against the water,
the ratcheted clutch dog teeth embedded into the drive gear, which is
the exact problem the OP has.

Now he's telling us the idle is twice as high as it should be, which
compounds the problem - even more force demanded of that lower shift
cable. Without the interrupter, he's headed for a docking, trailering,
or maneuvering disaster.

Rob


So like I said, he needs to set the idle correctly and adjust his cable
correctly and that will most likely permit his drive to shift correctly
The only thing confusing me is the the notion that a fixed ratio drive
with a positive engagement clutch can have a change in engine speed
relative to shaft speed while the clutch is engaged...
Immensely only has 2 "e"s


1st, you are misunderstanding the statement. Water flow over the prop
while decelerating will unload the drivetrain - will try to "push" the
engine - such that the interrupter will not come into play. Gear ratio
has nothing to do with it. This is what is happening to the OP on the
flush muffs, too... no load - no interrupter needed.

2nd, the Alpha clutch dog gears are back-cut and ramped, so that if the
prop is "overturned" it will "skip" teeth. Gear ratio has nothing to do
with it.

http://marineengineparts.com/shopsit...ia/18-2202.jpg

Rob

trainfan1 wrote:
markvictor wrote:

trainfan1 wrote:

markvictor wrote:

EFI? brand new alpha? are you in base timing mode?


Who are you responding to? What are you responding to? Who said EFI?

You're confusing yourself immensley.

Take for example a brand new Alpha 135. Disconnect the interrupter.
Guess what? It wont come out of gear, even at idle(in water, under
way), unless you use the cable and pull the shift lever past neutral
into reverse... then guess what? you're in reverse! From neutral, it'll
go INTO gear all day long no matter how fast you shift & throttle(&
actually, the faster you shift the better for the dog & gears in the
foot - none of that chunka-chunka-chunka-chunka-clunk stuff...).

Makes docking tough.

Now connect the interrupter on our EXAMPLE brand new Alpha 135. Shifts
like a dream(at least as good as a dog clutch leg can)!

You obviously do not understand the need for an interrupter on the Alpha
leg. (135hp is a carb engine)

It's for getting out of gear, in water. Engine running. Period.

Not running, or on the flush muffs, you don't need the interrupter, in
fact it shouldn't even activate... it's action is based on the force
needed to overcome the resistance of a drive working against the water,
the ratcheted clutch dog teeth embedded into the drive gear, which is
the exact problem the OP has.

Now he's telling us the idle is twice as high as it should be, which
compounds the problem - even more force demanded of that lower shift
cable. Without the interrupter, he's headed for a docking, trailering,
or maneuvering disaster.

Rob


So like I said, he needs to set the idle correctly and adjust his cable
correctly and that will most likely permit his drive to shift correctly
The only thing confusing me is the the notion that a fixed ratio drive
with a positive engagement clutch can have a change in engine speed
relative to shaft speed while the clutch is engaged...
Immensely only has 2 "e"s


1st, you are misunderstanding the statement. Water flow over the prop
while decelerating will unload the drivetrain - will try to "push" the
engine - such that the interrupter will not come into play. Gear ratio
has nothing to do with it. This is what is happening to the OP on the
flush muffs, too... no load - no interrupter needed.

2nd, the Alpha clutch dog gears are back-cut and ramped, so that if the
prop is "overturned" it will "skip" teeth. Gear ratio has nothing to do
with it.

http://marineengineparts.com/shopsit...ia/18-2202.jpg

Rob

If you took the time to read my post, you would have known that I
understand that perfectly as I stated that the water underway would
unload the clutch, read before you reply...
also note the update from the original poster about the lack of effort
when the shifter DOES return to the neutral detent, and the drive
remains engaged... experience gained from the 5 hundred drives or so
that come through our shop each year tells me that by adjusting the
shift cable end to the factory position at the bottom of the oval slot
will usually solve the symptoms described if the idle is correct...Not
always, of course, but any good tech will adjust to spec before
recommending parts changing...The interrupt actuates due to high clutch
load, or false load caused by a cable, or a bushing or shaft problem,
not just as a matter of course.. the poster stated that he does
occasionally have interrupter activation, but the drive remains in gear
when the control lever is in neutral, so again, I would look at cable
adjustment at the cantilever for correct throw and set idle to spec...

"markvictor" wrote in message
oups.com...

If you took the time to read my post, you would have known that I
understand that perfectly as I stated that the water underway would
unload the clutch, read before you reply...
also note the update from the original poster about the lack of effort
when the shifter DOES return to the neutral detent, and the drive
remains engaged... experience gained from the 5 hundred drives or so
that come through our shop each year tells me that by adjusting the
shift cable end to the factory position at the bottom of the oval slot
will usually solve the symptoms described if the idle is correct...Not
always, of course, but any good tech will adjust to spec before
recommending parts changing...The interrupt actuates due to high clutch
load, or false load caused by a cable, or a bushing or shaft problem,
not just as a matter of course.. the poster stated that he does
occasionally have interrupter activation, but the drive remains in gear
when the control lever is in neutral, so again, I would look at cable
adjustment at the cantilever for correct throw and set idle to spec...

I think you guys will both agree that the high idle needs to be addressed
first. Also, the owner needs to say weather he is having this problem when
he shifts back and forth while tied to the dock. This will determine the
need to have any discussion on weather or not the sliding clutch is unloaded
while shifting underway.
Jim

Thanks again....

I will try it this weekend at the dock, it may be the idle...

again, I do not have the manual so don't know the specs of what the
idle should be...so the help you guys provide (or agree upon) is my
manual. I will idle it down to 600rpm on land and then take it to the
water as my first step to a "cheaper" resolution.

thanks

Scott

Not going into idle usually means the shift interupter switch is not working
if it's an alpha. Usually you keep pulling harder and then it goes all the
way into the other gear.

Alphas are designed so the engine torque holds them in gear. When you pull
on the shifter tension on the main cable housing activates the ignition
interupter switch on that black plate when the shift cables connect. This
causes the engine to hesitate and that takes the torque off the input gear.
Then the cable can pull it into neutral. There are adjustment procedures in
the manual. You also want to make sure you cables are routed so they do not
have any sharp turns. And it is important that the housing on the cable
from the shifter not be fastened tightly to anything back near the engine.
It is that housing trying to pull opposite the cable that activates the
switch. It's a rube goldberg design but when adjusted properly it works.

wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks again....

I will try it this weekend at the dock, it may be the idle...

again, I do not have the manual so don't know the specs of what the
idle should be...so the help you guys provide (or agree upon) is my
manual. I will idle it down to 600rpm on land and then take it to the
water as my first step to a "cheaper" resolution.

thanks

Scott

I looked for related posts on this subject and didn't find any, so if I'm
repeating something already said, just ignore it.

750 Rpm's is a typical idle speed. At the engine where the shift cable
connects is a mechanism that rocks as shifting is done. It trips a micro
switch and kills the engine for just an instant and thus takes the power off
of the gears and allows shifting to occur. The gear dogs are cut at a
slight angle so as to pull them into their mating slots and help hold into
forward or reverse when under way. With the slightest power, they are
holding tight. When the microswitch closes and kills the engine momentarily
this power is removed.

The most common cause of this difficulty is the shift cable that runs from
this mechanism down to the lower unit. This cable is about 18" long. It
becomes wet and sticky thus does not operate smoothly and hence the micro
switch arrangement does not do it's job.

Don Dando



wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks again....

I will try it this weekend at the dock, it may be the idle...

again, I do not have the manual so don't know the specs of what the
idle should be...so the help you guys provide (or agree upon) is my
manual. I will idle it down to 600rpm on land and then take it to the
water as my first step to a "cheaper" resolution.

thanks

Scott